Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[Slyhunter]

I disagree, we can't police or be the refuge for every country in the world and maintain our lifestyle and culture. We already have too much crime and poverty, there is no reason to import more. Past interventions have proved fruitless and now you want to throw good money after bad. I can't buy that, it's time to take care of Americans and if we need to use force to secure our country, so be it.

.

Would you take a moment and kindly explain American culture to me?

No, if you can't look around at the changes that have already occurred, that's your problem. BTW you asked me for a court case yesterday, I provided it and haven't acknowledged it.

.

You have to bear in mind that I'm on here supposedly "debating" at least six different people. What court case did you cite that you think means what? I do 80 wpm and can barely keep up. I miss a few posts.

you against the world, think maybe it's just you that is wrong?

WTH are you talking about? I am not debating or arguing with anyone on this thread. I have not taken a position other than stating the obvious: a wall will not solve any issues that the build the wall guys have put on the table. I'm asking questions and simply trying to figure out what is REALLY going on.

That is a position. You don't want the wall built because you think it won't work. It depends on what you intend to accomplish. To keep out the riff raff it will work. To put a big hurdle in drug imports it would work.

 

[Slyhunter]

It has been explained to you in great detail how the wall has unintended consequences. Yet you choose to deny the realities of our times. For you, the wall is a religion. As you've stated, "you just want them (sic) gone. As this thread progresses, it will be interesting to see how little value your fellow build the wall supporters feel about your attitude toward Freeom and Liberty... ESPECIALLY if they have children who may have live in the aftermath of what you hope to create.

View attachment 238920

Great deflection, but here is my assessment about you (since that's all you got of all the discussion we've had)

1) Ray is agnostic, atheist, or something other than Christian. The dead giveaway is when people insist on using the word inalienable over unalienable. They have been interpreted differently by our courts. Inalienable rights are those which can be aliened IF YOU CONSENT.

Unalienable Rights are bestowed by a Creator, (your God, whomever you deem that to be.) Atheists believe that, at the end of the day, Rights are merely something other men give you. I'm not saying that is good or bad. It's just that Ray is not a Christian so the build the wall guys who choose to accept his arguments have a dilemma: they are equally yoked with the unbelieving

2) It is no secret that Ray would forfeit ANY AND ALL Liberties, Rights, and blessings for a wall

3) In Ray's world he honestly believes he can keep people out. This has NOTHING to do with any legal or moral argument for or against immigration. It is a pipe dream that could not be accomplished even when Jesus was walking this earth (references supplied in earlier posts)

4) Ray will use information in order to achieve his goal: keeping people from south of the border out. Oh he might play word games / semantics about a phony legal v. illegal nature, but his posts testify against the smoke and mirrors. He refuses to ask me one question as he prefers to present the pretext as a fact rather than ask me a simple question that he's danced around

5) Ray says he would like to preserve our culture. Albeit unpopular, our culture consists of a people that built a country on the twin pillars of race and religion. Ray rejects the religion, but lives under the delusion we can use a wall to force people out and reclaim the racial part of our heritage without the other part of our culture that made us great (i.e.a belief, as a nation, in God.)

Nothing more can come of any further debate / discussion. Anything he and I say to each other does not change where he stands. And I came on this thread looking for the REAL reason people worship the wall. Ray's logic does not make me want to trade off Essential Liberty for the promise of temporary Safety.

No immigration until every American who wants a job has a job that pays a living wage.

I'm not trying to be the bad guy, but that outlook is socialist. Rush Limbaugh said:

"If you want a “living wage,” if you don’t like what fast food restaurants pay, then do something else. It’s just that simple. Go to a trade school. Go to another business. Start your own business. Maybe the work that you are capable of isn’t yet worth $15 an hour at a fast-food restaurant. Maybe the consumer doesn’t want to pay $10 for a Big Mac so that people working at McDonald’s make $15 an hour. It’s not just a one-way strata.

You don’t just sit there and double what the employees at McDonald’s make and keep the prices the same. Now, you may think this is obvious, folks, and you may think, “Come on, Rush,” you’d be amazed at how many people do not understand the push-pull in economics. You’d be amazed at the number of people who have taken economics courses who think that the truth about headaches is that the boss is a cheap skinflint and wants his employees to starve and wants to screw his customers."

Minimum Wage: How Much is Too Much?

I don't work for McDonalds.
I'm as much a Conservative as Trump is and that would be not very much at all. Common sense for the working man he is and so am I.

 

[eagle1462010]

It has been explained to you in great detail how the wall has unintended consequences. Yet you choose to deny the realities of our times. For you, the wall is a religion. As you've stated, "you just want them (sic) gone. As this thread progresses, it will be interesting to see how little value your fellow build the wall supporters feel about your attitude toward Freeom and Liberty... ESPECIALLY if they have children who may have live in the aftermath of what you hope to create.

View attachment 238920

Great deflection, but here is my assessment about you (since that's all you got of all the discussion we've had)

1) Ray is agnostic, atheist, or something other than Christian. The dead giveaway is when people insist on using the word inalienable over unalienable. They have been interpreted differently by our courts. Inalienable rights are those which can be aliened IF YOU CONSENT.

Unalienable Rights are bestowed by a Creator, (your God, whomever you deem that to be.) Atheists believe that, at the end of the day, Rights are merely something other men give you. I'm not saying that is good or bad. It's just that Ray is not a Christian so the build the wall guys who choose to accept his arguments have a dilemma: they are equally yoked with the unbelieving

2) It is no secret that Ray would forfeit ANY AND ALL Liberties, Rights, and blessings for a wall

3) In Ray's world he honestly believes he can keep people out. This has NOTHING to do with any legal or moral argument for or against immigration. It is a pipe dream that could not be accomplished even when Jesus was walking this earth (references supplied in earlier posts)

4) Ray will use information in order to achieve his goal: keeping people from south of the border out. Oh he might play word games / semantics about a phony legal v. illegal nature, but his posts testify against the smoke and mirrors. He refuses to ask me one question as he prefers to present the pretext as a fact rather than ask me a simple question that he's danced around

5) Ray says he would like to preserve our culture. Albeit unpopular, our culture consists of a people that built a country on the twin pillars of race and religion. Ray rejects the religion, but lives under the delusion we can use a wall to force people out and reclaim the racial part of our heritage without the other part of our culture that made us great (i.e.a belief, as a nation, in God.)

Nothing more can come of any further debate / discussion. Anything he and I say to each other does not change where he stands. And I came on this thread looking for the REAL reason people worship the wall. Ray's logic does not make me want to trade off Essential Liberty for the promise of temporary Safety.

No immigration until every American who wants a job has a job that pays a living wage.

I'm not trying to be the bad guy, but that outlook is socialist. Rush Limbaugh said:

"If you want a “living wage,” if you don’t like what fast food restaurants pay, then do something else. It’s just that simple. Go to a trade school. Go to another business. Start your own business. Maybe the work that you are capable of isn’t yet worth $15 an hour at a fast-food restaurant. Maybe the consumer doesn’t want to pay $10 for a Big Mac so that people working at McDonald’s make $15 an hour. It’s not just a one-way strata.

You don’t just sit there and double what the employees at McDonald’s make and keep the prices the same. Now, you may think this is obvious, folks, and you may think, “Come on, Rush,” you’d be amazed at how many people do not understand the push-pull in economics. You’d be amazed at the number of people who have taken economics courses who think that the truth about headaches is that the boss is a cheap skinflint and wants his employees to starve and wants to screw his customers."

Minimum Wage: How Much is Too Much?

That argument is deflection. This issue is not about minimum wage at McDonalds.

In regards to wages in the Trades......Craftsman.....skilled workers......it has had an effect to lower wages. I've seen them bus in 3 bus loads of illegals to Construction jobs for a fraction of paying skilled workers. Lowering the pay for the others. In the insulation trade wages dropped because of this. Just as Scaffold building........witch used to be higher paying jobs.

A guy working for us went to Kentucky a little while back as a Supervisor. When he got there he was give a crew of Guatamalins.......Illegals.......they couldn't speak English......only had one translator......he had to use sign language to get them to do the work..........and they weren't skilled.......He quit and came back as it was useless.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

We have NEVER tried regulation. You are operating on laws that are in excess of FIFTY years old and don't even apply to the situation.

The fact that you don't understand we are NOT going to keep people out discredits anything you say on this board. Whether we like it or not, wall or no wall, they will come. BTW, in view of what I just told you, there is a question you should ask in light of my response. Surely, you are not so much of a dullard that you don't know what that question is.

If that seems unfair to you, it's the treatment I got from your side. Then, again, you have only assumed things; you never ASK.

1986 regulation was tried to deny their ability to work here. Penalized businesses for hiring them. The I-9 form. They skirted this law by ignoring forged ids. A network was set up to give fake ids to illegals. When caught workers get deported and come right back

That wasn't regulation, but unconstitutional control. Here is what is wrong with what happened there:

The IRS send out a form with an OMB number on it (that's the Office of Management and Budget.) That form told employers by what authority the government was "requiring" compliance.

The IRS had exactly ZERO, ZILCH, NADA when it came to jurisdiction over matters dealing with Socialist Security. So, I like a lot of people found a good use for those forms.

There is difference between control and regulation. Control is shutting off a road. Regulation is when you regulate the flow so that the traffic moves on that road in an orderly fashion.

The law was to force businesses to require id's for verification to work here. The Forgery network gave them id's and SSN's...........that system failed us........not the intent. The intent was to verify their LEGAL right to work here. Whether E-Verify will fix that is not quite known. That or something like that could very well fix that problem. When they can't work they will self deport.

OR PEOPLE LIKE YOU would have to SPONSOR THEM..........follow the law instead of making excuses.......and fix the problem once and for all.

Your little cute version doesn't change that one iota.........Americans want it fixed........by all means available..........The wall and better border security is part of that equation.............whether you agree is immaterial on that issue.

The majority of people disagree with your proposition. If you were following this thread, I've already stated that BEFORE the build the wall guys got involved, the issues were well under control - presuming that most of the pretexts being used are the REAL reason some of you are into wall worship.

It was not in control. Under Obama it was catch and release and you know it. They don't show up for court cases.......They always talked tough on immigration but it was a joke. Under the Dreamers and DACA large numbers came here to exploit it under Obama. Using the loop holes in the system, just as they are now with recent court rulings FORCING ICE to release them again. Main reason is the Flores loop holes on 20 day holds and the families can't be separated. ICE doesn't have the facilities to hold all the families nor the courts to get them proceeded in under 20 days. Thus they are doing Catch and Release again.

That is NOT SECURING THE BORDER, and CERTAINLY NOT under control. Those loop holes need to be closed and the proposals sent to Congress and the President by the CBP to better do their jobs. Those proposed contracts are reasonable.

One area of concern is communication problems in the open desert for CBP agents. Needing more communication towers.

Under control...........that is a joke............it isn't under control at all.

We're talking about two separate and distinct things. If the build the wall guys could pull their heads out of their ass, read my posts and quit trying to cull them to prop up some idiotic theory that I'm a liberal, you might begin to understand a few things:

The wall, immigration, etc. are symptoms of a broader root cause to America's downfall. In the 1970s through early 2000s constitutionalists were working on a host of legal and political issues - even making headway on most of them.

Had the constitutionalists and patriots not been funneled off by this Hegelian nightmare that has caused wall worship, many of the symptoms you guys complain about would have disappeared.

Had you backed them, the fight would be OVER today. We would be living under a form of government closer to what the founder envisioned and this back and forth B.S. would not be necessary.

I'm sick of this dumbassery where the build the wall guys accuse everyone who dismissed their proposed solutions as being heretics (those "open border" people.) How childish can you get! I didn't vote for Obama and they'd ban me here if I told you what I thought about the ... can't say anything that would be acceptable here.

The build the wall guys set the constitutionalist and patriot efforts back fifty years, taking major wins (politically and legally) with them and replacing them with socialist solutions.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Would you take a moment and kindly explain American culture to me?

No, if you can't look around at the changes that have already occurred, that's your problem. BTW you asked me for a court case yesterday, I provided it and haven't acknowledged it.

.

You have to bear in mind that I'm on here supposedly "debating" at least six different people. What court case did you cite that you think means what? I do 80 wpm and can barely keep up. I miss a few posts.

you against the world, think maybe it's just you that is wrong?

WTH are you talking about? I am not debating or arguing with anyone on this thread. I have not taken a position other than stating the obvious: a wall will not solve any issues that the build the wall guys have put on the table. I'm asking questions and simply trying to figure out what is REALLY going on.

That is an opinion and I disagree.......It is needed according to the CBP and they have been asking for improvements for over a decade.......The project in San Diego has been requested for at least a decade........Which needed Pedestrian bridges and walks as it is a POE.

They say where their is better infrastructure it works.....Should I listen to you or them. I choose them.

I have no idea what you just said. Was it even relevant to what we're discussing?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Unalienable Rights are bestowed by a Creator, (your God, whomever you deem that to be.) Atheists believe that, at the end of the day, Rights are merely something other men give you. I'm not saying that is good or bad. It's just that Ray is not a Christian so the build the wall guys who choose to accept his arguments have a dilemma: they are equally yoked with the unbelieving

That is projection. You can be a Christian and a Nationalist at the same time. You can't let everyone in the numbers are too great............It HURTS THIS COUNTRY. You don't destroy yourself to save them. That is just plain stupid. We have safety nets and they use them. Costs the Feds and States more money. That is Reality.

They need to fix the problems in their own countries.........and stop running from it. They do that then perhaps they will no longer run.

One has to ask, what would these people do if there were no United States of America to run to? Let's say history was changed, and our land was no different than any of these other S/CA countries. WTF would they do?

Sometimes people won't take action to better themselves unless they are forced to. It's like an alcoholic. They need to hit the bottom of the barrel before they decided to do something about their plight. However if an alcoholic has ample money supply to continue their habit, they will continue drinking. My neighbor is a good example of that. The guy is my age, never had an apartment or home his entire life. Lives with his mother, and because he conned the government into giving him disability, he's drunk 24/7.

As for my religion, I really don't have any. However I was born into a Catholic home, attended Catholic primary school, and even served as an altar boy for a year or two. What I do remember about my NT teaching is that Jesus didn't tell people follow him by getting government to take their money and provide, but do it individually. You don't follow Jesus by taking other people's money and property, and giving it away. That's not charity, that's theft.

 

[Slyhunter]

1986 regulation was tried to deny their ability to work here. Penalized businesses for hiring them. The I-9 form. They skirted this law by ignoring forged ids. A network was set up to give fake ids to illegals. When caught workers get deported and come right back

That wasn't regulation, but unconstitutional control. Here is what is wrong with what happened there:

The IRS send out a form with an OMB number on it (that's the Office of Management and Budget.) That form told employers by what authority the government was "requiring" compliance.

The IRS had exactly ZERO, ZILCH, NADA when it came to jurisdiction over matters dealing with Socialist Security. So, I like a lot of people found a good use for those forms.

There is difference between control and regulation. Control is shutting off a road. Regulation is when you regulate the flow so that the traffic moves on that road in an orderly fashion.

The law was to force businesses to require id's for verification to work here. The Forgery network gave them id's and SSN's...........that system failed us........not the intent. The intent was to verify their LEGAL right to work here. Whether E-Verify will fix that is not quite known. That or something like that could very well fix that problem. When they can't work they will self deport.

OR PEOPLE LIKE YOU would have to SPONSOR THEM..........follow the law instead of making excuses.......and fix the problem once and for all.

Your little cute version doesn't change that one iota.........Americans want it fixed........by all means available..........The wall and better border security is part of that equation.............whether you agree is immaterial on that issue.

The majority of people disagree with your proposition. If you were following this thread, I've already stated that BEFORE the build the wall guys got involved, the issues were well under control - presuming that most of the pretexts being used are the REAL reason some of you are into wall worship.

It was not in control. Under Obama it was catch and release and you know it. They don't show up for court cases.......They always talked tough on immigration but it was a joke. Under the Dreamers and DACA large numbers came here to exploit it under Obama. Using the loop holes in the system, just as they are now with recent court rulings FORCING ICE to release them again. Main reason is the Flores loop holes on 20 day holds and the families can't be separated. ICE doesn't have the facilities to hold all the families nor the courts to get them proceeded in under 20 days. Thus they are doing Catch and Release again.

That is NOT SECURING THE BORDER, and CERTAINLY NOT under control. Those loop holes need to be closed and the proposals sent to Congress and the President by the CBP to better do their jobs. Those proposed contracts are reasonable.

One area of concern is communication problems in the open desert for CBP agents. Needing more communication towers.

Under control...........that is a joke............it isn't under control at all.

We're talking about two separate and distinct things. If the build the wall guys could pull their heads out of their ass, read my posts and quit trying to cull them to prop up some idiotic theory that I'm a liberal, you might begin to understand a few things:

The wall, immigration, etc. are symptoms of a broader root cause to America's downfall. In the 1970s through early 2000s constitutionalists were working on a host of legal and political issues - even making headway on most of them.

Had the constitutionalists and patriots not been funneled off by this Hegelian nightmare that has caused wall worship, many of the symptoms you guys complain about would have disappeared.

Had you backed them, the fight would be OVER today. We would be living under a form of government closer to what the founder envisioned and this back and forth B.S. would not be necessary.

I'm sick of this dumbassery where the build the wall guys accuse everyone who dismissed their proposed solutions as being heretics (those "open border" people.) How childish can you get! I didn't vote for Obama and they'd ban me here if I told you what I thought about the ... can't say anything that would be acceptable here.

The build the wall guys set the constitutionalist and patriot efforts back fifty years, taking major wins (politically and legally) with them and replacing them with socialist solutions.

You sound like a Libertarian who believes in Darwinism and that everyone should be cut throat in job seeking and taking to the point that those that aren't willing to work for slave wages end up dead.

 

[eagle1462010]

1986 regulation was tried to deny their ability to work here. Penalized businesses for hiring them. The I-9 form. They skirted this law by ignoring forged ids. A network was set up to give fake ids to illegals. When caught workers get deported and come right back

That wasn't regulation, but unconstitutional control. Here is what is wrong with what happened there:

The IRS send out a form with an OMB number on it (that's the Office of Management and Budget.) That form told employers by what authority the government was "requiring" compliance.

The IRS had exactly ZERO, ZILCH, NADA when it came to jurisdiction over matters dealing with Socialist Security. So, I like a lot of people found a good use for those forms.

There is difference between control and regulation. Control is shutting off a road. Regulation is when you regulate the flow so that the traffic moves on that road in an orderly fashion.

The law was to force businesses to require id's for verification to work here. The Forgery network gave them id's and SSN's...........that system failed us........not the intent. The intent was to verify their LEGAL right to work here. Whether E-Verify will fix that is not quite known. That or something like that could very well fix that problem. When they can't work they will self deport.

OR PEOPLE LIKE YOU would have to SPONSOR THEM..........follow the law instead of making excuses.......and fix the problem once and for all.

Your little cute version doesn't change that one iota.........Americans want it fixed........by all means available..........The wall and better border security is part of that equation.............whether you agree is immaterial on that issue.

The majority of people disagree with your proposition. If you were following this thread, I've already stated that BEFORE the build the wall guys got involved, the issues were well under control - presuming that most of the pretexts being used are the REAL reason some of you are into wall worship.

It was not in control. Under Obama it was catch and release and you know it. They don't show up for court cases.......They always talked tough on immigration but it was a joke. Under the Dreamers and DACA large numbers came here to exploit it under Obama. Using the loop holes in the system, just as they are now with recent court rulings FORCING ICE to release them again. Main reason is the Flores loop holes on 20 day holds and the families can't be separated. ICE doesn't have the facilities to hold all the families nor the courts to get them proceeded in under 20 days. Thus they are doing Catch and Release again.

That is NOT SECURING THE BORDER, and CERTAINLY NOT under control. Those loop holes need to be closed and the proposals sent to Congress and the President by the CBP to better do their jobs. Those proposed contracts are reasonable.

One area of concern is communication problems in the open desert for CBP agents. Needing more communication towers.

Under control...........that is a joke............it isn't under control at all.

We're talking about two separate and distinct things. If the build the wall guys could pull their heads out of their ass, read my posts and quit trying to cull them to prop up some idiotic theory that I'm a liberal, you might begin to understand a few things:

The wall, immigration, etc. are symptoms of a broader root cause to America's downfall. In the 1970s through early 2000s constitutionalists were working on a host of legal and political issues - even making headway on most of them.

Had the constitutionalists and patriots not been funneled off by this Hegelian nightmare that has caused wall worship, many of the symptoms you guys complain about would have disappeared.

Had you backed them, the fight would be OVER today. We would be living under a form of government closer to what the founder envisioned and this back and forth B.S. would not be necessary.

I'm sick of this dumbassery where the build the wall guys accuse everyone who dismissed their proposed solutions as being heretics (those "open border" people.) How childish can you get! I didn't vote for Obama and they'd ban me here if I told you what I thought about the ... can't say anything that would be acceptable here.

The build the wall guys set the constitutionalist and patriot efforts back fifty years, taking major wins (politically and legally) with them and replacing them with socialist solutions.

You equate me with the left...............I understand the Founding Fathers and their intent well.........Well versed in the Federalist papers. Enumerated powers and State's rights are fundamental principles that have been lost. Most of that is Social programs dating all the way back to FDR...........They made promises they could never honor. That is why we are not in this mess...........Not a wall or border Security.

This task was under the Enumerated powers of the Gov't whether you like it or not. The Federal Gov't is responsible for the security of this nation PERIOD. No amount of words you say to me will change that opinion. You say it will not work.......I say you are WRONG. That and add in the laws I stated and it will stem the flow of illegals in this country and bring back the rule of law under a Republic as intended.................The braking of our immigration laws by foreigners is NOT IN OUR BEST INTEREST..........There are LEGAL ways to come in and that is how it needs to be done.

You are either supportive of our laws under a Republic or you are not. They are breaking the law by coming here illegally and you............by your own admission are breaking the law hiring them.

If you don't like the laws..........then change them.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Unalienable Rights are bestowed by a Creator, (your God, whomever you deem that to be.) Atheists believe that, at the end of the day, Rights are merely something other men give you. I'm not saying that is good or bad. It's just that Ray is not a Christian so the build the wall guys who choose to accept his arguments have a dilemma: they are equally yoked with the unbelieving

That is projection. You can be a Christian and a Nationalist at the same time. You can't let everyone in the numbers are too great............It HURTS THIS COUNTRY. You don't destroy yourself to save them. That is just plain stupid. We have safety nets and they use them. Costs the Feds and States more money. That is Reality.

They need to fix the problems in their own countries.........and stop running from it. They do that then perhaps they will no longer run.

You can be a Christian and a Nationalist at the same time - I agree.

What you absolutely cannot do is preach inalienable rights to a Christian since Christians, like the founders, rely on UNALIENABLE RIGHTS. Please don't make me go hunting for what Ray said with regards to his defense of this.

Ray, in his roundabout way, insists on using the term inalienable rights so as to justify taking Rights away from people. It has absolutely NO basis in Christianity.

Not even the left is arguing some idiotic position of letting just anyone into the country as you imply. You build the wall guys are stuck in your own stupidity on that one. Just because someone comes here does not mean they are going to stay here; does not mean they need to qualify for the benefits and privileges of citizenship... and if the build the wall guys had stayed the Hell out of this until they had the facts, there would not be MILLIONS of new citizens made possible by their stubborn defense of the illegally ratified 14th Amendment (and HELL NO we won't debate that on this thread.) I have an open challenge on a more level playing field for the first build the wall advocate that is serious.

 

[OKTexas]

Why are you only concerned about border properties? The government uses imminent domain to take properties all the time. Where's your concern for the folks that lose land for a Post Office or other government functions?

I don't support eminent domain at all. But apparently "libertarians" like bripat9643 do. Whodathunkit?

That could make our roads look awfully funny.

Not necessarily. Believe it or not, problems like that can be resolved without resorting to violence.

Care to elaborate?

I'm just saying that people are resourceful. State coercion isn't the only way to organize large scale projects.

But it is the most efficient and cost effective, especially for long term planning.

.

 

[eagle1462010]

Unalienable Rights are bestowed by a Creator, (your God, whomever you deem that to be.) Atheists believe that, at the end of the day, Rights are merely something other men give you. I'm not saying that is good or bad. It's just that Ray is not a Christian so the build the wall guys who choose to accept his arguments have a dilemma: they are equally yoked with the unbelieving

That is projection. You can be a Christian and a Nationalist at the same time. You can't let everyone in the numbers are too great............It HURTS THIS COUNTRY. You don't destroy yourself to save them. That is just plain stupid. We have safety nets and they use them. Costs the Feds and States more money. That is Reality.

They need to fix the problems in their own countries.........and stop running from it. They do that then perhaps they will no longer run.

You can be a Christian and a Nationalist at the same time - I agree.

What you absolutely cannot do is preach inalienable rights to a Christian since Christians, like the founders, rely on UNALIENABLE RIGHTS. Please don't make me go hunting for what Ray said with regards to his defense of this.

Ray, in his roundabout way, insists on using the term inalienable rights so as to justify taking Rights away from people. It has absolutely NO basis in Christianity.

Not even the left is arguing some idiotic position of letting just anyone into the country as you imply. You build the wall guys are stuck in your own stupidity on that one. Just because someone comes here does not mean they are going to stay here; does not mean they need to qualify for the benefits and privileges of citizenship... and if the build the wall guys had stayed the Hell out of this until they had the facts, there would not be MILLIONS of new citizens made possible by their stubborn defense of the illegally ratified 14th Amendment (and HELL NO we won't debate that on this thread.) I have an open challenge on a more level playing field for the first build the wall advocate that is serious.

You need to understand the difference between Citizen versus non citizen and get back to me. You are stuck on that word............You don't destroy your own country to help others..........and we are headed down that path.

You challenge Religion to JUSTIFY LAWLESSNESS against those breaking our laws coming here. Do it legally or don't do it at all...........Doing it legally will not stop Farm labor. The Dept of Labor has a program for that and businesses have a responsibility to FOLLOW OUR LAWS..............Not abuse them. It is NOT RIGHT that some follow the laws and get screwed on competition because those not following the law get away with it.

Equal justice and application of the law............versus your continued rants on how to justify BREAKING THE LAW.

We are a NATION OF LAWS or nothing. That is the principle of the Constitution and the Republic for which it stands.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Would you take a moment and kindly explain American culture to me?

No, if you can't look around at the changes that have already occurred, that's your problem. BTW you asked me for a court case yesterday, I provided it and haven't acknowledged it.

.

You have to bear in mind that I'm on here supposedly "debating" at least six different people. What court case did you cite that you think means what? I do 80 wpm and can barely keep up. I miss a few posts.

you against the world, think maybe it's just you that is wrong?

WTH are you talking about? I am not debating or arguing with anyone on this thread. I have not taken a position other than stating the obvious: a wall will not solve any issues that the build the wall guys have put on the table. I'm asking questions and simply trying to figure out what is REALLY going on.

That is a position. You don't want the wall built because you think it won't work. It depends on what you intend to accomplish. To keep out the riff raff it will work. To put a big hurdle in drug imports it would work.

Do you have a mental problem? I've stated my reasons for not wanting a wall. I know damn well it will not work because, and let's make this big and bold for you:

AMERICA IS NOT MEXICO, CANADA OR CHINA. WE ARE NOT AT WAR WITH THE ISRAELIS. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO PROTECT OR PRESERVE THE POSTERITY OF THE FOUNDERS. AS A RESULT YOU BUILD THE WALL PEOPLE ARE APPLYING A SOLUTION THAT DOES NOT APPLY - AND I HAVE PROVEN UNEQUIVOCALLY, WALLS OVER TIME DO NOT WORK. I'M COMMITTED TO A PRACTICAL, HONEST AND PERMANENT SOLUTION.

If you would read posts # 3475 and # 3476 you can see my REAL objections to what you are proposing.

 

[eagle1462010]

Not even the left is arguing some idiotic position of letting just anyone into the country as you imply.

Hogwash..........Their actions show their true intentions...............There using immigration for votes over history show how they LIE their butts off on this subject. They talk big and do nothing because they DO NOT WANT IT FIXED.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

That wasn't regulation, but unconstitutional control. Here is what is wrong with what happened there:

The IRS send out a form with an OMB number on it (that's the Office of Management and Budget.) That form told employers by what authority the government was "requiring" compliance.

The IRS had exactly ZERO, ZILCH, NADA when it came to jurisdiction over matters dealing with Socialist Security. So, I like a lot of people found a good use for those forms.

There is difference between control and regulation. Control is shutting off a road. Regulation is when you regulate the flow so that the traffic moves on that road in an orderly fashion.

The law was to force businesses to require id's for verification to work here. The Forgery network gave them id's and SSN's...........that system failed us........not the intent. The intent was to verify their LEGAL right to work here. Whether E-Verify will fix that is not quite known. That or something like that could very well fix that problem. When they can't work they will self deport.

OR PEOPLE LIKE YOU would have to SPONSOR THEM..........follow the law instead of making excuses.......and fix the problem once and for all.

Your little cute version doesn't change that one iota.........Americans want it fixed........by all means available..........The wall and better border security is part of that equation.............whether you agree is immaterial on that issue.

The majority of people disagree with your proposition. If you were following this thread, I've already stated that BEFORE the build the wall guys got involved, the issues were well under control - presuming that most of the pretexts being used are the REAL reason some of you are into wall worship.

It was not in control. Under Obama it was catch and release and you know it. They don't show up for court cases.......They always talked tough on immigration but it was a joke. Under the Dreamers and DACA large numbers came here to exploit it under Obama. Using the loop holes in the system, just as they are now with recent court rulings FORCING ICE to release them again. Main reason is the Flores loop holes on 20 day holds and the families can't be separated. ICE doesn't have the facilities to hold all the families nor the courts to get them proceeded in under 20 days. Thus they are doing Catch and Release again.

That is NOT SECURING THE BORDER, and CERTAINLY NOT under control. Those loop holes need to be closed and the proposals sent to Congress and the President by the CBP to better do their jobs. Those proposed contracts are reasonable.

One area of concern is communication problems in the open desert for CBP agents. Needing more communication towers.

Under control...........that is a joke............it isn't under control at all.

We're talking about two separate and distinct things. If the build the wall guys could pull their heads out of their ass, read my posts and quit trying to cull them to prop up some idiotic theory that I'm a liberal, you might begin to understand a few things:

The wall, immigration, etc. are symptoms of a broader root cause to America's downfall. In the 1970s through early 2000s constitutionalists were working on a host of legal and political issues - even making headway on most of them.

Had the constitutionalists and patriots not been funneled off by this Hegelian nightmare that has caused wall worship, many of the symptoms you guys complain about would have disappeared.

Had you backed them, the fight would be OVER today. We would be living under a form of government closer to what the founder envisioned and this back and forth B.S. would not be necessary.

I'm sick of this dumbassery where the build the wall guys accuse everyone who dismissed their proposed solutions as being heretics (those "open border" people.) How childish can you get! I didn't vote for Obama and they'd ban me here if I told you what I thought about the ... can't say anything that would be acceptable here.

The build the wall guys set the constitutionalist and patriot efforts back fifty years, taking major wins (politically and legally) with them and replacing them with socialist solutions.

You equate me with the left...............I understand the Founding Fathers and their intent well.........Well versed in the Federalist papers. Enumerated powers and State's rights are fundamental principles that have been lost. Most of that is Social programs dating all the way back to FDR...........They made promises they could never honor. That is why we are not in this mess...........Not a wall or border Security.

This task was under the Enumerated powers of the Gov't whether you like it or not. The Federal Gov't is responsible for the security of this nation PERIOD. No amount of words you say to me will change that opinion. You say it will not work.......I say you are WRONG. That and add in the laws I stated and it will stem the flow of illegals in this country and bring back the rule of law under a Republic as intended.................The braking of our immigration laws by foreigners is NOT IN OUR BEST INTEREST..........There are LEGAL ways to come in and that is how it needs to be done.

You are either supportive of our laws under a Republic or you are not. They are breaking the law by coming here illegally and you............by your own admission are breaking the law hiring them.

If you don't like the laws..........then change them.

You just showed me a level of ignorance that makes me want to scream at you. Read post # 2806 and see if you can figure it out.

 

[eagle1462010]

The law was to force businesses to require id's for verification to work here. The Forgery network gave them id's and SSN's...........that system failed us........not the intent. The intent was to verify their LEGAL right to work here. Whether E-Verify will fix that is not quite known. That or something like that could very well fix that problem. When they can't work they will self deport.

OR PEOPLE LIKE YOU would have to SPONSOR THEM..........follow the law instead of making excuses.......and fix the problem once and for all.

Your little cute version doesn't change that one iota.........Americans want it fixed........by all means available..........The wall and better border security is part of that equation.............whether you agree is immaterial on that issue.

The majority of people disagree with your proposition. If you were following this thread, I've already stated that BEFORE the build the wall guys got involved, the issues were well under control - presuming that most of the pretexts being used are the REAL reason some of you are into wall worship.

It was not in control. Under Obama it was catch and release and you know it. They don't show up for court cases.......They always talked tough on immigration but it was a joke. Under the Dreamers and DACA large numbers came here to exploit it under Obama. Using the loop holes in the system, just as they are now with recent court rulings FORCING ICE to release them again. Main reason is the Flores loop holes on 20 day holds and the families can't be separated. ICE doesn't have the facilities to hold all the families nor the courts to get them proceeded in under 20 days. Thus they are doing Catch and Release again.

That is NOT SECURING THE BORDER, and CERTAINLY NOT under control. Those loop holes need to be closed and the proposals sent to Congress and the President by the CBP to better do their jobs. Those proposed contracts are reasonable.

One area of concern is communication problems in the open desert for CBP agents. Needing more communication towers.

Under control...........that is a joke............it isn't under control at all.

We're talking about two separate and distinct things. If the build the wall guys could pull their heads out of their ass, read my posts and quit trying to cull them to prop up some idiotic theory that I'm a liberal, you might begin to understand a few things:

The wall, immigration, etc. are symptoms of a broader root cause to America's downfall. In the 1970s through early 2000s constitutionalists were working on a host of legal and political issues - even making headway on most of them.

Had the constitutionalists and patriots not been funneled off by this Hegelian nightmare that has caused wall worship, many of the symptoms you guys complain about would have disappeared.

Had you backed them, the fight would be OVER today. We would be living under a form of government closer to what the founder envisioned and this back and forth B.S. would not be necessary.

I'm sick of this dumbassery where the build the wall guys accuse everyone who dismissed their proposed solutions as being heretics (those "open border" people.) How childish can you get! I didn't vote for Obama and they'd ban me here if I told you what I thought about the ... can't say anything that would be acceptable here.

The build the wall guys set the constitutionalist and patriot efforts back fifty years, taking major wins (politically and legally) with them and replacing them with socialist solutions.

You equate me with the left...............I understand the Founding Fathers and their intent well.........Well versed in the Federalist papers. Enumerated powers and State's rights are fundamental principles that have been lost. Most of that is Social programs dating all the way back to FDR...........They made promises they could never honor. That is why we are not in this mess...........Not a wall or border Security.

This task was under the Enumerated powers of the Gov't whether you like it or not. The Federal Gov't is responsible for the security of this nation PERIOD. No amount of words you say to me will change that opinion. You say it will not work.......I say you are WRONG. That and add in the laws I stated and it will stem the flow of illegals in this country and bring back the rule of law under a Republic as intended.................The braking of our immigration laws by foreigners is NOT IN OUR BEST INTEREST..........There are LEGAL ways to come in and that is how it needs to be done.

You are either supportive of our laws under a Republic or you are not. They are breaking the law by coming here illegally and you............by your own admission are breaking the law hiring them.

If you don't like the laws..........then change them.

You just showed me a level of ignorance that makes me want to scream at you. Read post # 2806 and see if you can figure it out.

I read that post after you asked me the first time. I've seen what the CBP is asking for.............I've read about the mistakes of our past.........and understand the situation far better than you THINK you know............Just because you have an opinion doesn't make it more valuable than mine. Walls with the sensors to apprehend illegals is part of that system. It also helps them stem the flow of drugs. Do that and add in what I stated and we can restore Law and Order to this nation.

You are pushing LAWLESSNESS HERE. Then play the Moral card to justify it.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

It has been explained to you in great detail how the wall has unintended consequences. Yet you choose to deny the realities of our times. For you, the wall is a religion. As you've stated, "you just want them (sic) gone. As this thread progresses, it will be interesting to see how little value your fellow build the wall supporters feel about your attitude toward Freeom and Liberty... ESPECIALLY if they have children who may have live in the aftermath of what you hope to create.

View attachment 238920

Great deflection, but here is my assessment about you (since that's all you got of all the discussion we've had)

1) Ray is agnostic, atheist, or something other than Christian. The dead giveaway is when people insist on using the word inalienable over unalienable. They have been interpreted differently by our courts. Inalienable rights are those which can be aliened IF YOU CONSENT.

Unalienable Rights are bestowed by a Creator, (your God, whomever you deem that to be.) Atheists believe that, at the end of the day, Rights are merely something other men give you. I'm not saying that is good or bad. It's just that Ray is not a Christian so the build the wall guys who choose to accept his arguments have a dilemma: they are equally yoked with the unbelieving

2) It is no secret that Ray would forfeit ANY AND ALL Liberties, Rights, and blessings for a wall

3) In Ray's world he honestly believes he can keep people out. This has NOTHING to do with any legal or moral argument for or against immigration. It is a pipe dream that could not be accomplished even when Jesus was walking this earth (references supplied in earlier posts)

4) Ray will use information in order to achieve his goal: keeping people from south of the border out. Oh he might play word games / semantics about a phony legal v. illegal nature, but his posts testify against the smoke and mirrors. He refuses to ask me one question as he prefers to present the pretext as a fact rather than ask me a simple question that he's danced around

5) Ray says he would like to preserve our culture. Albeit unpopular, our culture consists of a people that built a country on the twin pillars of race and religion. Ray rejects the religion, but lives under the delusion we can use a wall to force people out and reclaim the racial part of our heritage without the other part of our culture that made us great (i.e.a belief, as a nation, in God.)

Nothing more can come of any further debate / discussion. Anything he and I say to each other does not change where he stands. And I came on this thread looking for the REAL reason people worship the wall. Ray's logic does not make me want to trade off Essential Liberty for the promise of temporary Safety.

No immigration until every American who wants a job has a job that pays a living wage.

I'm not trying to be the bad guy, but that outlook is socialist. Rush Limbaugh said:

"If you want a “living wage,” if you don’t like what fast food restaurants pay, then do something else. It’s just that simple. Go to a trade school. Go to another business. Start your own business. Maybe the work that you are capable of isn’t yet worth $15 an hour at a fast-food restaurant. Maybe the consumer doesn’t want to pay $10 for a Big Mac so that people working at McDonald’s make $15 an hour. It’s not just a one-way strata.

You don’t just sit there and double what the employees at McDonald’s make and keep the prices the same. Now, you may think this is obvious, folks, and you may think, “Come on, Rush,” you’d be amazed at how many people do not understand the push-pull in economics. You’d be amazed at the number of people who have taken economics courses who think that the truth about headaches is that the boss is a cheap skinflint and wants his employees to starve and wants to screw his customers."

Minimum Wage: How Much is Too Much?

I don't work for McDonalds.
I'm as much a Conservative as Trump is and that would be not very much at all. Common sense for the working man he is and so am I.

Trump is NOT a conservative; he despises the Constitution; he thinks he's God and you would follow him into Hell. He just slapped "conservatives" with a bitch slap so hard that he's about to nullify that Constitution.

The minimum wage debate sparked the living wage debate and when Rush isn't evangelizing for Reverend Trump, he's cutting that living wage argument into shreds.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

The majority of people disagree with your proposition. If you were following this thread, I've already stated that BEFORE the build the wall guys got involved, the issues were well under control - presuming that most of the pretexts being used are the REAL reason some of you are into wall worship.

It was not in control. Under Obama it was catch and release and you know it. They don't show up for court cases.......They always talked tough on immigration but it was a joke. Under the Dreamers and DACA large numbers came here to exploit it under Obama. Using the loop holes in the system, just as they are now with recent court rulings FORCING ICE to release them again. Main reason is the Flores loop holes on 20 day holds and the families can't be separated. ICE doesn't have the facilities to hold all the families nor the courts to get them proceeded in under 20 days. Thus they are doing Catch and Release again.

That is NOT SECURING THE BORDER, and CERTAINLY NOT under control. Those loop holes need to be closed and the proposals sent to Congress and the President by the CBP to better do their jobs. Those proposed contracts are reasonable.

One area of concern is communication problems in the open desert for CBP agents. Needing more communication towers.

Under control...........that is a joke............it isn't under control at all.

We're talking about two separate and distinct things. If the build the wall guys could pull their heads out of their ass, read my posts and quit trying to cull them to prop up some idiotic theory that I'm a liberal, you might begin to understand a few things:

The wall, immigration, etc. are symptoms of a broader root cause to America's downfall. In the 1970s through early 2000s constitutionalists were working on a host of legal and political issues - even making headway on most of them.

Had the constitutionalists and patriots not been funneled off by this Hegelian nightmare that has caused wall worship, many of the symptoms you guys complain about would have disappeared.

Had you backed them, the fight would be OVER today. We would be living under a form of government closer to what the founder envisioned and this back and forth B.S. would not be necessary.

I'm sick of this dumbassery where the build the wall guys accuse everyone who dismissed their proposed solutions as being heretics (those "open border" people.) How childish can you get! I didn't vote for Obama and they'd ban me here if I told you what I thought about the ... can't say anything that would be acceptable here.

The build the wall guys set the constitutionalist and patriot efforts back fifty years, taking major wins (politically and legally) with them and replacing them with socialist solutions.

You equate me with the left...............I understand the Founding Fathers and their intent well.........Well versed in the Federalist papers. Enumerated powers and State's rights are fundamental principles that have been lost. Most of that is Social programs dating all the way back to FDR...........They made promises they could never honor. That is why we are not in this mess...........Not a wall or border Security.

This task was under the Enumerated powers of the Gov't whether you like it or not. The Federal Gov't is responsible for the security of this nation PERIOD. No amount of words you say to me will change that opinion. You say it will not work.......I say you are WRONG. That and add in the laws I stated and it will stem the flow of illegals in this country and bring back the rule of law under a Republic as intended.................The braking of our immigration laws by foreigners is NOT IN OUR BEST INTEREST..........There are LEGAL ways to come in and that is how it needs to be done.

You are either supportive of our laws under a Republic or you are not. They are breaking the law by coming here illegally and you............by your own admission are breaking the law hiring them.

If you don't like the laws..........then change them.

You just showed me a level of ignorance that makes me want to scream at you. Read post # 2806 and see if you can figure it out.

I read that post after you asked me the first time. I've seen what the CBP is asking for.............I've read about the mistakes of our past.........and understand the situation far better than you THINK you know............Just because you have an opinion doesn't make it more valuable than mine. Walls with the sensors to apprehend illegals is part of that system. It also helps them stem the flow of drugs. Do that and add in what I stated and we can restore Law and Order to this nation.

You are pushing LAWLESSNESS HERE. Then play the Moral card to justify it.

The quoted post don't have squat to do with the CBP or anything near that. You're posting so much and throwing so much stuff at me that you can't keep up with it.

Hell, brother, I got half a dozen wall religionists dogging me and keep up better than you.

Where do you get your unalienable Rights from? What is post # 2806 about?

 

[OKTexas]

EXCUSE ME for interjecting here, I see you are STILL arguing about the wall! I honestly don't see what the debate is about:

Indigent Illegals crossing the southern borders in mass quantities? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

This has a negative impact on our resources and wage earning potential for many americans competing in similar job markets that Mexicans do here? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

Putting up a complete, better wall would hugely impact their coming here? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

This country safer from potential terrorist intrusion with the wall? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

Being for the wall? Are you kidding me? This is never about a wall, it is about national security and sovereignty. If anyone says it is about protectionism, so what if it is? LET ONE PERSON HERE tell me protectionism is bad and they are against it and I will ask them if they have a lock on their front door, if they lock their car, have a security light or security system? LET ONE PERSON HERE tell me they don't PROTECT what they have, and I'll call you a LIAR.

Being for the wall? The issue here is BEING FOR NATIONAL SECURITY. The wall makes us more secure with it than without it. Anyone here arguing against national security is either a commie, an anti-American or has fruit loops for brains.

Better ways to do it? BULL.

Cheaper ways to do it? BULL?

Immoral? Go fuck yourself.

Anyone who claims a wall is "immoral" against these mobs of dirty, stinking, diseased illegals but its not "immoral" for what blindly letting these people into the country is doing to us here, is a fucking idiot. Maybe you don't see it where you live, but we are approaching 12 million of these people. That's about 4% of the population. Cut them off today and in another decade with their kids (all supported by low income government programs that come out of YOUR pocket, they'll be at 10%.

Like all things, you get what you fund. We are funding a low income, low education, low skill, high dependence work force. The exact OPPOSITE of what this country made itself great with.

Enough. End it now. Its the LAW. Defend the borders. I'm tired of hearing people argue against the most basic, fundamental responsibility of the federal government. Trump: tear the shit down until these motherfuckers in Congress say uncle! It's go for broke right now and I say put the bastard democrats in prison if they continue to block what we put you in office to do. If you don't like Trump and didn't put him in office, fine. When you get YOUR guy in office, then it'll be your time to get YOUR agenda carried out.

But I really think democrats oppose the wall so much because THEY KNOW IT WILL WORK. And they don't WANT it to work. Democratic scum care less about Americans than they do every dirty wetback minority they can dig out from under a rock.

Did anyone ever tell you that you are freaking HILARIOUS? Yours was the funniest freaking post I've seen since I've been on this board. Thank you for starting my day off with a laugh. Now down to business:

1) I am not arguing with ANYONE about your silly wall

2) This is NOT a debate forum, so we are not debating anything

3) Just because you make a bold assertion and put it in big blue letters will not make it come true

4) EVERY non - partisan study I have read contradicts what the white supremacists are feeding Congress. NOW, let me show you how this works:

"Despite all this, illegal immigration’s overall impact on the US economy is small. Low-skilled native workers who compete with unauthorized immigrants are the clearest losers. US employers, on the other hand, gain from lower labor costs and the ability to use their land, capital, and technology more productively. The stakes are highest for the unauthorized immigrants themselves, who see very substantial income gains after migrating. If we exclude these immigrants from the calculus, however (as domestic policymakers are naturally inclined to do), the small net gain that remains after subtracting US workers’ losses from US employers’ gains is tiny. And if we account for the small fiscal burden that unauthorized immigrants impose, the overall economic benefit is close enough to zero to be essentially a wash"

file:///C:/Users/admin/Downloads/Hanson-Dec09%20(3).pdf

(I had to copy and paste that link so you will have to do likewise to read it)

See the documentation in quotation marks and a citing source? Notice how the study figures in not only the cost, but the contribution of the foreigner as well? When you do that, you get a different economic picture.

You want people to take sides and if they don't agree with you and then you use mob rule to ridicule and harass them? That's your strategy? No wonder public opinion is swinging left.

5) The goalposts are once again being moved. As soon as I answer one objection, you build the wall guys conjure up another. My current discussion is that Ray has a totally different argument - and at least his argument is half ass honest. Yours is absolute stupidity.

This is NOT an issue about National Security because the American people are WILLINGLY doing business with the foreigners. There is no threat of war and they are not taking any more than we are willing to give

6) Just because you can deny what I'm saying will NEVER disprove it

7) You can go fuck yourself too. I'd prefer to have said that in person

8) I've never weighed in on the morality of your silly wall so you had to create a straw man there in order to buffer the ass kicking you're taking here

9) Your dumbassery is really showing. THREE times in this thread I have told you I'm not on the left; that I voted for Trump. So, lying won't give much credence to your B.S.

10) Finally, all of this "wall" business was the talking points of the left BEFORE it was right wing fodder. You should know the history of the arguments you're making.

It's damn foolish to trash the Constitution, take a dump on your unalienable Rights, and deliberately attempt to make America a third world dictatorship on the basis of lies. Last night I heard the president of Egypt say that we are the world's strongest military power and it was our responsibility to help fight tyranny. I don't know if I agree with his proposition; however, it is the epitome of idiocy to try and duplicate the ways of people who are inferior to you.

A better use of our money and time is to help other nations become like us so they don't feel a need to be at war with each other and not have the requisite knowledge to build a constitutional Republic with the potential of being financially strong and humane toward others.

Here's a live link: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/sites/default/files/publications/Hanson-Dec09.pdf

And pardon me if I disregard information provided by a left wing one worlder think tank.

.

Well champ, the joke is now on you. That was a link used by a pro-wall supporter in a debate with someone on another board. I chose to read it.

Thank you for being dishonest about it. It's going to make it easier to prove that build the wall guy is not the beaming paragon of virtue he thinks he is. left wing one worlder think tank... LMAO.

Did you bother to look at the other projects Hanson is involved in? His bias is obvious like most left wing academics. The stagnant numbers he used are totally outdated, they haven't changed in almost 15 years. Anyone who believes there are only 12 million illegals in this country are delusional, real numbers are most likely 4 times that, or higher.

.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... they are whatever number the build the wall kind of guys want them to be. I'll keep you in mind with that post in the future.

Another study was done before that one. It was done by non-partisan Congressional Budget Office. Their conclusion?

"Although it is difficult to obtain precise estimates of the net impact of the unauthorized population on state and local budgets (see Box 1), that impact is most likely modest."

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf

Yep. All those estimates are old; don't reflect the changes over the last decade, despite the fact that, without a wall, the economy is booming. Any attack is as good as another. You just cannot accept the facts. The right wing groups do not consider the contributions versus the costs.

As stupid as the American people are, a LOT of them know there are two sides of the accounting ledger and understand that you like omitting the side that don't favor your fudged figures.

Contributions vs costs, consider this, estimates are that illegals costs us in excess of 100 billion a year in direct costs. Then you can consider the indirect costs. Wage suppression, estimated by the US Civil Rights commission to be between 99-100 billion a year. Then you have displacement of other minorities. Compton CA was 98% black not too long ago, it is now 30% black. So I guess you could say an unsecure border is racist as hell. If you want to see the source of that, watch the first two segments of the Tucker Carlson show tonight. If you can't tune into the repeat you can get it on Utube. He interviewed not only the guy from the Civil Rights commission who provided those fact and other but another that provided some interesting facts.

.

 

[eagle1462010]

It was not in control. Under Obama it was catch and release and you know it. They don't show up for court cases.......They always talked tough on immigration but it was a joke. Under the Dreamers and DACA large numbers came here to exploit it under Obama. Using the loop holes in the system, just as they are now with recent court rulings FORCING ICE to release them again. Main reason is the Flores loop holes on 20 day holds and the families can't be separated. ICE doesn't have the facilities to hold all the families nor the courts to get them proceeded in under 20 days. Thus they are doing Catch and Release again.

That is NOT SECURING THE BORDER, and CERTAINLY NOT under control. Those loop holes need to be closed and the proposals sent to Congress and the President by the CBP to better do their jobs. Those proposed contracts are reasonable.

One area of concern is communication problems in the open desert for CBP agents. Needing more communication towers.

Under control...........that is a joke............it isn't under control at all.

We're talking about two separate and distinct things. If the build the wall guys could pull their heads out of their ass, read my posts and quit trying to cull them to prop up some idiotic theory that I'm a liberal, you might begin to understand a few things:

The wall, immigration, etc. are symptoms of a broader root cause to America's downfall. In the 1970s through early 2000s constitutionalists were working on a host of legal and political issues - even making headway on most of them.

Had the constitutionalists and patriots not been funneled off by this Hegelian nightmare that has caused wall worship, many of the symptoms you guys complain about would have disappeared.

Had you backed them, the fight would be OVER today. We would be living under a form of government closer to what the founder envisioned and this back and forth B.S. would not be necessary.

I'm sick of this dumbassery where the build the wall guys accuse everyone who dismissed their proposed solutions as being heretics (those "open border" people.) How childish can you get! I didn't vote for Obama and they'd ban me here if I told you what I thought about the ... can't say anything that would be acceptable here.

The build the wall guys set the constitutionalist and patriot efforts back fifty years, taking major wins (politically and legally) with them and replacing them with socialist solutions.

You equate me with the left...............I understand the Founding Fathers and their intent well.........Well versed in the Federalist papers. Enumerated powers and State's rights are fundamental principles that have been lost. Most of that is Social programs dating all the way back to FDR...........They made promises they could never honor. That is why we are not in this mess...........Not a wall or border Security.

This task was under the Enumerated powers of the Gov't whether you like it or not. The Federal Gov't is responsible for the security of this nation PERIOD. No amount of words you say to me will change that opinion. You say it will not work.......I say you are WRONG. That and add in the laws I stated and it will stem the flow of illegals in this country and bring back the rule of law under a Republic as intended.................The braking of our immigration laws by foreigners is NOT IN OUR BEST INTEREST..........There are LEGAL ways to come in and that is how it needs to be done.

You are either supportive of our laws under a Republic or you are not. They are breaking the law by coming here illegally and you............by your own admission are breaking the law hiring them.

If you don't like the laws..........then change them.

You just showed me a level of ignorance that makes me want to scream at you. Read post # 2806 and see if you can figure it out.

I read that post after you asked me the first time. I've seen what the CBP is asking for.............I've read about the mistakes of our past.........and understand the situation far better than you THINK you know............Just because you have an opinion doesn't make it more valuable than mine. Walls with the sensors to apprehend illegals is part of that system. It also helps them stem the flow of drugs. Do that and add in what I stated and we can restore Law and Order to this nation.

You are pushing LAWLESSNESS HERE. Then play the Moral card to justify it.

The quoted post don't have squat to do with the CBP or anything near that. You're posting so much and throwing so much stuff at me that you can't keep up with it.

Hell, brother, I got half a dozen wall religionists dogging me and keep up better than you.

I have rattled your cage............and stated my opinion clearly.............and you are upset that your dogma isn't moving me.

I've read the history of this situation............I've lived it............I've seen the attempts to fix it which have failed........and called you out on some of it. Like you said they hadn't tried to fix it other ways without a wall..........Reagan did try to do that. Then you said no he didn't............that was his intent..............and had the verification system worked............well it could have absolutely worked...............but they found away around it and fixed nothing.

Your statements are for open borders............you will state otherwise............because you say you had it fixed if we would listen.......No SPECIFICS................You need to give those specifics and not religious quotes to take them all in.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Did anyone ever tell you that you are freaking HILARIOUS? Yours was the funniest freaking post I've seen since I've been on this board. Thank you for starting my day off with a laugh. Now down to business:

1) I am not arguing with ANYONE about your silly wall

2) This is NOT a debate forum, so we are not debating anything

3) Just because you make a bold assertion and put it in big blue letters will not make it come true

4) EVERY non - partisan study I have read contradicts what the white supremacists are feeding Congress. NOW, let me show you how this works:

"Despite all this, illegal immigration’s overall impact on the US economy is small. Low-skilled native workers who compete with unauthorized immigrants are the clearest losers. US employers, on the other hand, gain from lower labor costs and the ability to use their land, capital, and technology more productively. The stakes are highest for the unauthorized immigrants themselves, who see very substantial income gains after migrating. If we exclude these immigrants from the calculus, however (as domestic policymakers are naturally inclined to do), the small net gain that remains after subtracting US workers’ losses from US employers’ gains is tiny. And if we account for the small fiscal burden that unauthorized immigrants impose, the overall economic benefit is close enough to zero to be essentially a wash"

file:///C:/Users/admin/Downloads/Hanson-Dec09%20(3).pdf

(I had to copy and paste that link so you will have to do likewise to read it)

See the documentation in quotation marks and a citing source? Notice how the study figures in not only the cost, but the contribution of the foreigner as well? When you do that, you get a different economic picture.

You want people to take sides and if they don't agree with you and then you use mob rule to ridicule and harass them? That's your strategy? No wonder public opinion is swinging left.

5) The goalposts are once again being moved. As soon as I answer one objection, you build the wall guys conjure up another. My current discussion is that Ray has a totally different argument - and at least his argument is half ass honest. Yours is absolute stupidity.

This is NOT an issue about National Security because the American people are WILLINGLY doing business with the foreigners. There is no threat of war and they are not taking any more than we are willing to give

6) Just because you can deny what I'm saying will NEVER disprove it

7) You can go fuck yourself too. I'd prefer to have said that in person

8) I've never weighed in on the morality of your silly wall so you had to create a straw man there in order to buffer the ass kicking you're taking here

9) Your dumbassery is really showing. THREE times in this thread I have told you I'm not on the left; that I voted for Trump. So, lying won't give much credence to your B.S.

10) Finally, all of this "wall" business was the talking points of the left BEFORE it was right wing fodder. You should know the history of the arguments you're making.

It's damn foolish to trash the Constitution, take a dump on your unalienable Rights, and deliberately attempt to make America a third world dictatorship on the basis of lies. Last night I heard the president of Egypt say that we are the world's strongest military power and it was our responsibility to help fight tyranny. I don't know if I agree with his proposition; however, it is the epitome of idiocy to try and duplicate the ways of people who are inferior to you.

A better use of our money and time is to help other nations become like us so they don't feel a need to be at war with each other and not have the requisite knowledge to build a constitutional Republic with the potential of being financially strong and humane toward others.

Here's a live link: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/sites/default/files/publications/Hanson-Dec09.pdf

And pardon me if I disregard information provided by a left wing one worlder think tank.

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Well champ, the joke is now on you. That was a link used by a pro-wall supporter in a debate with someone on another board. I chose to read it.

Thank you for being dishonest about it. It's going to make it easier to prove that build the wall guy is not the beaming paragon of virtue he thinks he is. left wing one worlder think tank... LMAO.

Did you bother to look at the other projects Hanson is involved in? His bias is obvious like most left wing academics. The stagnant numbers he used are totally outdated, they haven't changed in almost 15 years. Anyone who believes there are only 12 million illegals in this country are delusional, real numbers are most likely 4 times that, or higher.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah... they are whatever number the build the wall kind of guys want them to be. I'll keep you in mind with that post in the future.

Another study was done before that one. It was done by non-partisan Congressional Budget Office. Their conclusion?

"Although it is difficult to obtain precise estimates of the net impact of the unauthorized population on state and local budgets (see Box 1), that impact is most likely modest."

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf

Yep. All those estimates are old; don't reflect the changes over the last decade, despite the fact that, without a wall, the economy is booming. Any attack is as good as another. You just cannot accept the facts. The right wing groups do not consider the contributions versus the costs.

As stupid as the American people are, a LOT of them know there are two sides of the accounting ledger and understand that you like omitting the side that don't favor your fudged figures.

Contributions vs costs, consider this, estimates are that illegals costs us in excess of 100 billion a year in direct costs. Then you can consider the indirect costs. Wage suppression, estimated by the US Civil Rights commission to be between 99-100 billion a year. Then you have displacement of other minorities. Compton CA was 98% black not too long ago, it is now 30% black. So I guess you could say an unsecure border is racist as hell. If you want to see the source of that, watch the first two segments of the Tucker Carlson show tonight. If you can't tune into the repeat you can get it on Utube. He interviewed not only the guy from the Civil Rights commission who provided those fact and other but another that provided some interesting facts.

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All the "facts" change daily. Your supposed facts change as often as the myriad of pretexts of why we're willing to spend $5 BILLION DOLLARS on a proposed solution that isn't even tailored to the perceived problem.

For every study you can show me, I can come up with five, just as authoritative, that dismiss what you come up with. None of it changes the truth. I know you don't read the thread, I keep having to repeat myself. I came here asking for answers. My views can be found on posts # 2806, 3475, 3476 and 3613 among others (those are the most relevant.)

BTW, If I REALLY wanted to be for the undocumented, I could do a thesis on the indirect benefits the political propaganda prostitutes don't mention in favor of undocumented foreigners.