Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[Slyhunter]

President Barack Obama: "Real reform means strong border security, and we can build on the progress my administration has already made — putting more boots on the Southern border than at any time in our history and reducing illegal crossings to their lowest levels in 40 years.”

Secretary Hillary Clinton: "I voted numerous times when I was a senator to spend money to build a barrier to try to prevent illegal immigrants from coming in. And I do think that you have to control your borders."

President Bill Clinton: "It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years, and we must do more to stop it."

You are only proving a point I've been making since I got on this thread. The Democrats adopted the political idea BEFORE Trump came along. It is not a conservative idea.

The talking points were pioneered by white supremacists and National Socialists back in the 1970s. So, I would presume you have a point?

It's true. In the 2000's us liberals were against illegal immigrants while 75% of the Republican party was arguing they were just here doing jobs Americans won't do. That's a lie.

Do a little math. The Bureau of Labor Statistics says there are 7.6 million unemployed Americans right now. Another 1.5 million Americans are no longer counted because they've become "long term" or "discouraged" unemployed workers. And although various groups have different ways of measuring it, most agree that at least another five to ten million Americans are either working part-time when they want to work full-time, or are "underemployed," doing jobs below their level of training, education, or experience. That's between eight and twenty million un- and under-employed Americans, many unable to find above-poverty-level work.

At the same time, there are between seven and fifteen million working illegal immigrants diluting our labor pool.

If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Between the Reagan years - when there were only around 1 to 2 million illegal aliens in our workforce - and today, we've gone from about 25 percent of our private workforce being unionized to around seven percent. Much of this is the direct result - as César Chávez predicted - of illegal immigrants competing directly with unionized and legal labor. Although it's most obvious in the construction trades over the past 30 years, it's hit all sectors of our economy.

My math is simple:

I run ads on Craigslist, in community papers and list with the Dept. of Labor. People don't even show up for an interview.

I could give you the REAL reason this happens, but it would take more than twenty words and you would not admit it. I can show you a hundred people today under 40 that have never worked a job and they won't. Most of it is the fault of people who back bad legislation because you're wholly uninformed.

Pay more. Supply/Demand economics. What is the job?

I'm a minister with a jobs program. We have temp, temp to perm and permanent jobs in many fields from laborers to farm workers and from warehouse workers to construction / handymen positions.

Whites will not work the jobs.

They don't pay enough to work them.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Telling me to STFU is funny. Keyboard warriors amuse me. Long your posts are. Incoherent and wordy to boot.

Incoherent because you cannot read; long because those who are so desperate for a wall keep rehashing the same points and keep making the same false allegations. Again, dude, honesty is the enemy of those who worship the wall. Go to post # 2806. Work your way back and tell me of a long post I made BEFORE that.

All I did was ask questions. Me a keyboard warrior? I'd rather meet people face to face. I can go back to asking questions the moment the guys who think they can read minds and have all the answers will provide them without their phony bravado.

President Barack Obama: "Real reform means strong border security, and we can build on the progress my administration has already made — putting more boots on the Southern border than at any time in our history and reducing illegal crossings to their lowest levels in 40 years.”

Secretary Hillary Clinton: "I voted numerous times when I was a senator to spend money to build a barrier to try to prevent illegal immigrants from coming in. And I do think that you have to control your borders."

President Bill Clinton: "It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years, and we must do more to stop it."

You are only proving a point I've been making since I got on this thread. The Democrats adopted the political idea BEFORE Trump came along. It is not a conservative idea.

The talking points were pioneered by white supremacists and National Socialists back in the 1970s. So, I would presume you have a point?

My only point is that border patrol agents want it and they are on the frontlines. I would think we would and should be willing to support them. That is all.

What Border Agents Say They Want (It’s Not a Wall)

The report was based on internal Customs and Border Protection documents from the 2017 fiscal year. It concluded that less than one half of 1 percent of the agents’ suggestions to secure the Southwest border mentioned the need for a wall.

Flopper posted that already and it’s been debunked.


Sent from my iPad using USMessageBoard.com

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Those who argue anything other than its the votes they seek, and the transformation of America so to resemble Mexico and South America are being dishonest

-Geaux

lol. only lousy capitalists lose money on border policy.

If you hate this country so much feel free to move.

lousy capitalist lose money for our country; feel free to leave and lose money for some other country, right winger.

Capitalists pay the taxes, politicians spend em. Not sure how "capitalists lose money". Time to put daniel the illegal on ignore.

Did that six months ago. Saves me a ton of time on USMB.


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[AzogtheDefiler]

President Barack Obama: "Real reform means strong border security, and we can build on the progress my administration has already made — putting more boots on the Southern border than at any time in our history and reducing illegal crossings to their lowest levels in 40 years.”

Secretary Hillary Clinton: "I voted numerous times when I was a senator to spend money to build a barrier to try to prevent illegal immigrants from coming in. And I do think that you have to control your borders."

President Bill Clinton: "It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years, and we must do more to stop it."

You are only proving a point I've been making since I got on this thread. The Democrats adopted the political idea BEFORE Trump came along. It is not a conservative idea.

The talking points were pioneered by white supremacists and National Socialists back in the 1970s. So, I would presume you have a point?

It's true. In the 2000's us liberals were against illegal immigrants while 75% of the Republican party was arguing they were just here doing jobs Americans won't do. That's a lie.

Do a little math. The Bureau of Labor Statistics says there are 7.6 million unemployed Americans right now. Another 1.5 million Americans are no longer counted because they've become "long term" or "discouraged" unemployed workers. And although various groups have different ways of measuring it, most agree that at least another five to ten million Americans are either working part-time when they want to work full-time, or are "underemployed," doing jobs below their level of training, education, or experience. That's between eight and twenty million un- and under-employed Americans, many unable to find above-poverty-level work.

At the same time, there are between seven and fifteen million working illegal immigrants diluting our labor pool.

If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Between the Reagan years - when there were only around 1 to 2 million illegal aliens in our workforce - and today, we've gone from about 25 percent of our private workforce being unionized to around seven percent. Much of this is the direct result - as César Chávez predicted - of illegal immigrants competing directly with unionized and legal labor. Although it's most obvious in the construction trades over the past 30 years, it's hit all sectors of our economy.

My math is simple:

I run ads on Craigslist, in community papers and list with the Dept. of Labor. People don't even show up for an interview.

I could give you the REAL reason this happens, but it would take more than twenty words and you would not admit it. I can show you a hundred people today under 40 that have never worked a job and they won't. Most of it is the fault of people who back bad legislation because you're wholly uninformed.

Pay more. Supply/Demand economics. What is the job?

I'm a minister with a jobs program. We have temp, temp to perm and permanent jobs in many fields from laborers to farm workers and from warehouse workers to construction / handymen positions.

Whites will not work the jobs.

They do in MA

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

My only point is that border patrol agents want it and they are on the frontlines. I would think we would and should be willing to support them. That is all.

And my point is (and I've been forced to state and defend my own positions) is that my Liberty supersedes what government workers want. The cops want to be able to search your home without a warrant; prosecutors want to try cases on the basis of perjured testimony where they force people to plead guilty or face a longer sentence; a lot of people in society want to infringe on your Right to keep and bear Arms.

Most guys here dodge, duck, play semantics, and lie about what it is they REALLY want. If someone is trying to sell you something, you should ask questions about it. When they then accuse you of being a heretic for questioning the infallibility of Donald Trump and the wall worship deal, then you have NOT thought this through. If / when those who want a wall level with me, I'll tell them where I stand.

Border Patrol agents aren't stopping you from doing anything they are stopping those who are not citizens and want to enter the country illegally. You never answered how it infringes on your liberty. Cops don't want to search homes illegally, fallacy. Prosecutors do not want to try people illegally. Another fallacy. You are at least consistent.

You've got to be kidding. I've answered this stuff in excess of TWENTY TIMES! WTH? Did you try READING this thread?

Pal, I've tried very hard not to call people names despite the abuse that's been hurled at me, but you're an outright idiot if you honestly believe that prosecutors don't want to try people illegally. I personally witnessed a case wherein the prosecutor LIED to the jury, got to threaten potential witnesses with jail time if they did not commit perjury and corroborate the "state's version of events." In addition, they were allowed to use hearsay. Adding insult to injury, there was never an investigation into the case, the accused first time of ever seeing the officer making the accusation was when they went to court. Other than an alleged victim that was threatened by the prosecutor, there were no witnesses, no investigation, no evidence, and no reason for the defendant to even be in court.

Come up with something relevant already.

#1) Some prosecutors may but most do not. Your example doesn't mean all do it.
#2) Two of my life long friends are police officers. They go by the book and get abused daily. I respect them wholeheartedly.
#3) You're a keyboard warrior. I laugh at your expense. Wash your mouth out with soap. Face to face you would not call people idiots don't do it here.

Well, you wound up exposing yourself. Keyboard warrior? It's a fact I'll never see you in person. Here's your invitation - come here and spend a week with me. If you still think I'm lying, I'll sell everything I have and join your wall worship. Spend a week here, look me in the eyes and spew that crap. If you have any modicum of honesty or decency, you can't do it.

I wish to God it were not true, but it is.

I'm calling your bluff - right here and right now. I'm going back to work for the moment and let you see if you can get the courage to see which of us is right.

Where is here? So you want me to take a week off from work and my family to prove a point? Seriously?

 

[danielpalos]

Those who argue anything other than its the votes they seek, and the transformation of America so to resemble Mexico and South America are being dishonest

-Geaux

lol. only lousy capitalists lose money on border policy.

You still trying to get the rest of your family in? They can mow my lawn with their teeth like the fucking goats that they are.

ad hominems and other fallacies is all the right wing has.

No, we also have the USA.

true Gamorans and true Sodomites make better citizens than false Christians.

 

[Taz]

Those who argue anything other than its the votes they seek, and the transformation of America so to resemble Mexico and South America are being dishonest

-Geaux

lol. only lousy capitalists lose money on border policy.

You still trying to get the rest of your family in? They can mow my lawn with their teeth like the fucking goats that they are.

ad hominems and other fallacies is all the right wing has.

No, we also have the USA.

true Gamorans and true Sodomites make better citizens than false Christians.

I'm not Christian. Now go assfuck another donkey, you know you want to.

 

[danielpalos]

lol. only lousy capitalists lose money on border policy.

You still trying to get the rest of your family in? They can mow my lawn with their teeth like the fucking goats that they are.

ad hominems and other fallacies is all the right wing has.

No, we also have the USA.

true Gamorans and true Sodomites make better citizens than false Christians.

I'm not Christian. Now go assfuck another donkey, you know you want to.

you have no truth value; who cares what you think if you have no witnesses.

 

[eagle1462010]

Very argumentative you are. Listen to counterpoints you don’t. Necessary border security is. Bad open borders are.

You need some new material. Reread this thread. I did not become "argumentative" for the first 200 posts that I was involved in it. My first 75 posts were in search of the REAL reasons people wanted the wall. When my patriotism was questioned by Ray, I told him game on. You need to STFU and read the thread before climbing my back with false allegations. We'll get along better if you read the whole story first. National Security is NOT one of the reasons cited in my first inquiries. It's just now being interjected because Trump alleges it. WTH, dude, you need government to save you from yourself?

See these exapmles: posts 2806, 3475, 3476, 3613, 3669 and 3731. Read those and then join the conversation.

Telling me to STFU is funny. Keyboard warriors amuse me. Long your posts are. Incoherent and wordy to boot.

Incoherent because you cannot read; long because those who are so desperate for a wall keep rehashing the same points and keep making the same false allegations. Again, dude, honesty is the enemy of those who worship the wall. Go to post # 2806. Work your way back and tell me of a long post I made BEFORE that.

All I did was ask questions. Me a keyboard warrior? I'd rather meet people face to face. I can go back to asking questions the moment the guys who think they can read minds and have all the answers will provide them without their phony bravado.

President Barack Obama: "Real reform means strong border security, and we can build on the progress my administration has already made — putting more boots on the Southern border than at any time in our history and reducing illegal crossings to their lowest levels in 40 years.”

Secretary Hillary Clinton: "I voted numerous times when I was a senator to spend money to build a barrier to try to prevent illegal immigrants from coming in. And I do think that you have to control your borders."

President Bill Clinton: "It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years, and we must do more to stop it."

You are only proving a point I've been making since I got on this thread. The Democrats adopted the political idea BEFORE Trump came along. It is not a conservative idea.

The talking points were pioneered by white supremacists and National Socialists back in the 1970s. So, I would presume you have a point?

To some its political. To some its not.

It is a barrier to impede illegals and drugs to make securing the border easier for CBP.

Politicians have grand standed for votes and not built effective barriers. They refuse to fix the loop holes. Those ideas are right to me. They have been right to me for decades.

20 to 25 billion will provide about 1000 miles total of wall. In high traffic areas where they say they need them. We should do as the professionals request tosupport them

 

[Taz]

You still trying to get the rest of your family in? They can mow my lawn with their teeth like the fucking goats that they are.

ad hominems and other fallacies is all the right wing has.

No, we also have the USA.

true Gamorans and true Sodomites make better citizens than false Christians.

I'm not Christian. Now go assfuck another donkey, you know you want to.

you have no truth value; who cares what you think if you have no witnesses.

Is it your family that's throwing rocks at US border guards?

 

[sealybobo]

Incoherent because you cannot read; long because those who are so desperate for a wall keep rehashing the same points and keep making the same false allegations. Again, dude, honesty is the enemy of those who worship the wall. Go to post # 2806. Work your way back and tell me of a long post I made BEFORE that.

All I did was ask questions. Me a keyboard warrior? I'd rather meet people face to face. I can go back to asking questions the moment the guys who think they can read minds and have all the answers will provide them without their phony bravado.

President Barack Obama: "Real reform means strong border security, and we can build on the progress my administration has already made — putting more boots on the Southern border than at any time in our history and reducing illegal crossings to their lowest levels in 40 years.”

Secretary Hillary Clinton: "I voted numerous times when I was a senator to spend money to build a barrier to try to prevent illegal immigrants from coming in. And I do think that you have to control your borders."

President Bill Clinton: "It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years, and we must do more to stop it."

You are only proving a point I've been making since I got on this thread. The Democrats adopted the political idea BEFORE Trump came along. It is not a conservative idea.

The talking points were pioneered by white supremacists and National Socialists back in the 1970s. So, I would presume you have a point?

My only point is that border patrol agents want it and they are on the frontlines. I would think we would and should be willing to support them. That is all.

What Border Agents Say They Want (It’s Not a Wall)

The report was based on internal Customs and Border Protection documents from the 2017 fiscal year. It concluded that less than one half of 1 percent of the agents’ suggestions to secure the Southwest border mentioned the need for a wall.

I've seen other reports that contradict and I actually saw them on TV stating they want a WALL!!!!

In four Customs and Border Protection sectors where physical barriers have been expanded — El Paso, Yuma, Tucson, and San Diego — illegal traffic has dropped by at least 90%.

Dems pre-Trump:

-Hillary: Supported border wall
-Obama: More border security, illegals must speak English, go to back of line
-Schumer: Border walls work
-Reid: Offering benefits to illegals = insane
-Feinstein: US can't be Mexico's welfare
-Clinton: Illegal immigration is wrong

I support border security. A wall is a waste of money. But watching the border is important. You can watch the border with or without a wall. And when you eventually stop watching the border without a wall then you don't feel stupid for building an unnecessary wall that was a huge waste of time and money and now has so many holes in it that it looks like swiss cheese.

 

[eagle1462010]

ad hominems and other fallacies is all the right wing has.

No, we also have the USA.

true Gamorans and true Sodomites make better citizens than false Christians.

I'm not Christian. Now go assfuck another donkey, you know you want to.

you have no truth value; who cares what you think if you have no witnesses.

Is it your family that's throwing rocks at US border guards?

They come here uninvited. Then DEMAND entry. They are not citizens of this country and have no right to demand anything.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

You have to bear in mind that I'm on here supposedly "debating" at least six different people. What court case did you cite that you think means what? I do 80 wpm and can barely keep up. I miss a few posts.

you against the world, think maybe it's just you that is wrong?

WTH are you talking about? I am not debating or arguing with anyone on this thread. I have not taken a position other than stating the obvious: a wall will not solve any issues that the build the wall guys have put on the table. I'm asking questions and simply trying to figure out what is REALLY going on.

That is a position. You don't want the wall built because you think it won't work. It depends on what you intend to accomplish. To keep out the riff raff it will work. To put a big hurdle in drug imports it would work.

Do you have a mental problem? I've stated my reasons for not wanting a wall. I know damn well it will not work because, and let's make this big and bold for you:

AMERICA IS NOT MEXICO, CANADA OR CHINA. WE ARE NOT AT WAR WITH THE ISRAELIS. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO PROTECT OR PRESERVE THE POSTERITY OF THE FOUNDERS. AS A RESULT YOU BUILD THE WALL PEOPLE ARE APPLYING A SOLUTION THAT DOES NOT APPLY - AND I HAVE PROVEN UNEQUIVOCALLY, WALLS OVER TIME DO NOT WORK. I'M COMMITTED TO A PRACTICAL, HONEST AND PERMANENT SOLUTION.

If you would read posts # 3475 and # 3476 you can see my REAL objections to what you are proposing.

Walls keep out the riff raff. Walls do work.

As a matter of fact, they do not. See posts # 3475 and 3476 on this thread.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

You are only proving a point I've been making since I got on this thread. The Democrats adopted the political idea BEFORE Trump came along. It is not a conservative idea.

The talking points were pioneered by white supremacists and National Socialists back in the 1970s. So, I would presume you have a point?

It's true. In the 2000's us liberals were against illegal immigrants while 75% of the Republican party was arguing they were just here doing jobs Americans won't do. That's a lie.

Do a little math. The Bureau of Labor Statistics says there are 7.6 million unemployed Americans right now. Another 1.5 million Americans are no longer counted because they've become "long term" or "discouraged" unemployed workers. And although various groups have different ways of measuring it, most agree that at least another five to ten million Americans are either working part-time when they want to work full-time, or are "underemployed," doing jobs below their level of training, education, or experience. That's between eight and twenty million un- and under-employed Americans, many unable to find above-poverty-level work.

At the same time, there are between seven and fifteen million working illegal immigrants diluting our labor pool.

If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Between the Reagan years - when there were only around 1 to 2 million illegal aliens in our workforce - and today, we've gone from about 25 percent of our private workforce being unionized to around seven percent. Much of this is the direct result - as César Chávez predicted - of illegal immigrants competing directly with unionized and legal labor. Although it's most obvious in the construction trades over the past 30 years, it's hit all sectors of our economy.

My math is simple:

I run ads on Craigslist, in community papers and list with the Dept. of Labor. People don't even show up for an interview.

I could give you the REAL reason this happens, but it would take more than twenty words and you would not admit it. I can show you a hundred people today under 40 that have never worked a job and they won't. Most of it is the fault of people who back bad legislation because you're wholly uninformed.

Pay more. Supply/Demand economics. What is the job?

I'm a minister with a jobs program. We have temp, temp to perm and permanent jobs in many fields from laborers to farm workers and from warehouse workers to construction / handymen positions.

Whites will not work the jobs.

Both parties have flip flopped on immigration depending on the issue. Dems supported 2006 fence act. Republicans opposed Clinton efforts to limit hiring illegals. Reagan supported amnesty for undocumented immigrants.

Operation Wetback in the 50s was initiated at the request of the Mexican government and was supported by both parties


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah and Ceasear

You are only proving a point I've been making since I got on this thread. The Democrats adopted the political idea BEFORE Trump came along. It is not a conservative idea.

The talking points were pioneered by white supremacists and National Socialists back in the 1970s. So, I would presume you have a point?

It's true. In the 2000's us liberals were against illegal immigrants while 75% of the Republican party was arguing they were just here doing jobs Americans won't do. That's a lie.

Do a little math. The Bureau of Labor Statistics says there are 7.6 million unemployed Americans right now. Another 1.5 million Americans are no longer counted because they've become "long term" or "discouraged" unemployed workers. And although various groups have different ways of measuring it, most agree that at least another five to ten million Americans are either working part-time when they want to work full-time, or are "underemployed," doing jobs below their level of training, education, or experience. That's between eight and twenty million un- and under-employed Americans, many unable to find above-poverty-level work.

At the same time, there are between seven and fifteen million working illegal immigrants diluting our labor pool.

If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Between the Reagan years - when there were only around 1 to 2 million illegal aliens in our workforce - and today, we've gone from about 25 percent of our private workforce being unionized to around seven percent. Much of this is the direct result - as César Chávez predicted - of illegal immigrants competing directly with unionized and legal labor. Although it's most obvious in the construction trades over the past 30 years, it's hit all sectors of our economy.

My math is simple:

I run ads on Craigslist, in community papers and list with the Dept. of Labor. People don't even show up for an interview.

I could give you the REAL reason this happens, but it would take more than twenty words and you would not admit it. I can show you a hundred people today under 40 that have never worked a job and they won't. Most of it is the fault of people who back bad legislation because you're wholly uninformed.

Pay more. Supply/Demand economics. What is the job?

I'm a minister with a jobs program. We have temp, temp to perm and permanent jobs in many fields from laborers to farm workers and from warehouse workers to construction / handymen positions.

Whites will not work the jobs.

Both parties have flip flopped on immigration depending on the issue. Dems supported 2006 fence act. Republicans opposed Clinton efforts to limit hiring illegals. Reagan supported amnesty for undocumented immigrants.

Operation Wetback in the 50s was initiated at the request of the Mexican government and was supported by both parties


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"As a senator, Barack Obama made a call in 2008 for a national holiday in
Cesar Chavez's honor, saying: "Chavez left a legacy as an educator, environmentalist, and a civil rights leader. And his cause lives on. As farm workers and laborers across America continue to struggle for fair treatment and fair wages, we find strength in what Cesar Chavez accomplished so many years ago. And we should honor him for what he's taught us about making America a stronger, more just, and more prosperous nation. That's why I support the call to make Cesar Chavez's birthday a national holiday. It's time to recognize the contributions of this American icon to the ongoing efforts to perfect our union." (Senator Barack Obama March 31, 2008.)"

Cesar Chavez Day - Wikipedia

The more you study history, the more you can tie the wall worship to liberalism.

Also bear in mind that not only did Mexico want Operation Wetback, once we deported all those people, our unemployment rate DOUBLED in less than five years.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Great deflection, but here is my assessment about you (since that's all you got of all the discussion we've had)

1) Ray is agnostic, atheist, or something other than Christian. The dead giveaway is when people insist on using the word inalienable over unalienable. They have been interpreted differently by our courts. Inalienable rights are those which can be aliened IF YOU CONSENT.

Unalienable Rights are bestowed by a Creator, (your God, whomever you deem that to be.) Atheists believe that, at the end of the day, Rights are merely something other men give you. I'm not saying that is good or bad. It's just that Ray is not a Christian so the build the wall guys who choose to accept his arguments have a dilemma: they are equally yoked with the unbelieving

2) It is no secret that Ray would forfeit ANY AND ALL Liberties, Rights, and blessings for a wall

3) In Ray's world he honestly believes he can keep people out. This has NOTHING to do with any legal or moral argument for or against immigration. It is a pipe dream that could not be accomplished even when Jesus was walking this earth (references supplied in earlier posts)

4) Ray will use information in order to achieve his goal: keeping people from south of the border out. Oh he might play word games / semantics about a phony legal v. illegal nature, but his posts testify against the smoke and mirrors. He refuses to ask me one question as he prefers to present the pretext as a fact rather than ask me a simple question that he's danced around

5) Ray says he would like to preserve our culture. Albeit unpopular, our culture consists of a people that built a country on the twin pillars of race and religion. Ray rejects the religion, but lives under the delusion we can use a wall to force people out and reclaim the racial part of our heritage without the other part of our culture that made us great (i.e.a belief, as a nation, in God.)

Nothing more can come of any further debate / discussion. Anything he and I say to each other does not change where he stands. And I came on this thread looking for the REAL reason people worship the wall. Ray's logic does not make me want to trade off Essential Liberty for the promise of temporary Safety.

No immigration until every American who wants a job has a job that pays a living wage.

I'm not trying to be the bad guy, but that outlook is socialist. Rush Limbaugh said:

"If you want a “living wage,” if you don’t like what fast food restaurants pay, then do something else. It’s just that simple. Go to a trade school. Go to another business. Start your own business. Maybe the work that you are capable of isn’t yet worth $15 an hour at a fast-food restaurant. Maybe the consumer doesn’t want to pay $10 for a Big Mac so that people working at McDonald’s make $15 an hour. It’s not just a one-way strata.

You don’t just sit there and double what the employees at McDonald’s make and keep the prices the same. Now, you may think this is obvious, folks, and you may think, “Come on, Rush,” you’d be amazed at how many people do not understand the push-pull in economics. You’d be amazed at the number of people who have taken economics courses who think that the truth about headaches is that the boss is a cheap skinflint and wants his employees to starve and wants to screw his customers."

Minimum Wage: How Much is Too Much?

I don't work for McDonalds.
I'm as much a Conservative as Trump is and that would be not very much at all. Common sense for the working man he is and so am I.

Trump is NOT a conservative; he despises the Constitution; he thinks he's God and you would follow him into Hell. He just slapped "conservatives" with a bitch slap so hard that he's about to nullify that Constitution.

The minimum wage debate sparked the living wage debate and when Rush isn't evangelizing for Reverend Trump, he's cutting that living wage argument into shreds.

He's not about to nullify the Constitution.

Let's see how many unalienable Rights you have left once he's through.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

#1) I had a similar situation and the owner did put in AC
#2) This is not a runny a nose, this is a constant bleed.
#3) I disagree this is mutual beneficial.

He doesn't seem to understand that's what ports of entry are for.

.

No, I don't understand what the relevance of it is. YOU don't know what the bottom line is as to what ports of entry are for... OR maybe you know, but are like Ray.

Very argumentative you are. Listen to counterpoints you don’t. Necessary border security is. Bad open borders are.

You need some new material. Reread this thread. I did not become "argumentative" for the first 200 posts that I was involved in it. My first 75 posts were in search of the REAL reasons people wanted the wall. When my patriotism was questioned by Ray, I told him game on. You need to STFU and read the thread before climbing my back with false allegations. We'll get along better if you read the whole story first. National Security is NOT one of the reasons cited in my first inquiries. It's just now being interjected because Trump alleges it. WTH, dude, you need government to save you from yourself?

See these exapmles: posts 2806, 3475, 3476, 3613, 3669 and 3731. Read those and then join the conversation.

The real reason we want the wall is to keep out the trash. You've been answered multiple times.

So, you think the Hispanics are trash? So, you'll say that isn't racist because the social engineers do not recognize a Hispanic race?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

You are only proving a point I've been making since I got on this thread. The Democrats adopted the political idea BEFORE Trump came along. It is not a conservative idea.

The talking points were pioneered by white supremacists and National Socialists back in the 1970s. So, I would presume you have a point?

It's true. In the 2000's us liberals were against illegal immigrants while 75% of the Republican party was arguing they were just here doing jobs Americans won't do. That's a lie.

Do a little math. The Bureau of Labor Statistics says there are 7.6 million unemployed Americans right now. Another 1.5 million Americans are no longer counted because they've become "long term" or "discouraged" unemployed workers. And although various groups have different ways of measuring it, most agree that at least another five to ten million Americans are either working part-time when they want to work full-time, or are "underemployed," doing jobs below their level of training, education, or experience. That's between eight and twenty million un- and under-employed Americans, many unable to find above-poverty-level work.

At the same time, there are between seven and fifteen million working illegal immigrants diluting our labor pool.

If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Between the Reagan years - when there were only around 1 to 2 million illegal aliens in our workforce - and today, we've gone from about 25 percent of our private workforce being unionized to around seven percent. Much of this is the direct result - as César Chávez predicted - of illegal immigrants competing directly with unionized and legal labor. Although it's most obvious in the construction trades over the past 30 years, it's hit all sectors of our economy.

My math is simple:

I run ads on Craigslist, in community papers and list with the Dept. of Labor. People don't even show up for an interview.

I could give you the REAL reason this happens, but it would take more than twenty words and you would not admit it. I can show you a hundred people today under 40 that have never worked a job and they won't. Most of it is the fault of people who back bad legislation because you're wholly uninformed.

Pay more. Supply/Demand economics. What is the job?

I'm a minister with a jobs program. We have temp, temp to perm and permanent jobs in many fields from laborers to farm workers and from warehouse workers to construction / handymen positions.

Whites will not work the jobs.

They don't pay enough to work them.

The people who expect a surgeon's wages aren't worth that for a skill set they can learn in six months. Sorry, dude. You are advocating socialism again.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

President Barack Obama: "Real reform means strong border security, and we can build on the progress my administration has already made — putting more boots on the Southern border than at any time in our history and reducing illegal crossings to their lowest levels in 40 years.”

Secretary Hillary Clinton: "I voted numerous times when I was a senator to spend money to build a barrier to try to prevent illegal immigrants from coming in. And I do think that you have to control your borders."

President Bill Clinton: "It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years, and we must do more to stop it."

You are only proving a point I've been making since I got on this thread. The Democrats adopted the political idea BEFORE Trump came along. It is not a conservative idea.

The talking points were pioneered by white supremacists and National Socialists back in the 1970s. So, I would presume you have a point?

My only point is that border patrol agents want it and they are on the frontlines. I would think we would and should be willing to support them. That is all.

What Border Agents Say They Want (It’s Not a Wall)

The report was based on internal Customs and Border Protection documents from the 2017 fiscal year. It concluded that less than one half of 1 percent of the agents’ suggestions to secure the Southwest border mentioned the need for a wall.

I've seen other reports that contradict and I actually saw them on TV stating they want a WALL!!!!

In four Customs and Border Protection sectors where physical barriers have been expanded — El Paso, Yuma, Tucson, and San Diego — illegal traffic has dropped by at least 90%.

Dems pre-Trump:

-Hillary: Supported border wall
-Obama: More border security, illegals must speak English, go to back of line
-Schumer: Border walls work
-Reid: Offering benefits to illegals = insane
-Feinstein: US can't be Mexico's welfare
-Clinton: Illegal immigration is wrong

I support border security. A wall is a waste of money. But watching the border is important. You can watch the border with or without a wall. And when you eventually stop watching the border without a wall then you don't feel stupid for building an unnecessary wall that was a huge waste of time and money and now has so many holes in it that it looks like swiss cheese.

Neither you nor I are experts. Border Patrol agents are and they have asked for a wall.

 

[OKTexas]

Contributions vs costs, consider this, estimates are that illegals costs us in excess of 100 billion a year in direct costs. Then you can consider the indirect costs. Wage suppression, estimated by the US Civil Rights commission to be between 99-100 billion a year. Then you have displacement of other minorities. Compton CA was 98% black not too long ago, it is now 30% black. So I guess you could say an unsecure border is racist as hell. If you want to see the source of that, watch the first two segments of the Tucker Carlson show tonight. If you can't tune into the repeat you can get it on Utube. He interviewed not only the guy from the Civil Rights commission who provided those fact and other but another that provided some interesting facts.

.

All the "facts" change daily. Your supposed facts change as often as the myriad of pretexts of why we're willing to spend $5 BILLION DOLLARS on a proposed solution that isn't even tailored to the perceived problem.

For every study you can show me, I can come up with five, just as authoritative, that dismiss what you come up with. None of it changes the truth. I know you don't read the thread, I keep having to repeat myself. I came here asking for answers. My views can be found on posts # 2806, 3475, 3476 and 3613 among others (those are the most relevant.)

BTW, If I REALLY wanted to be for the undocumented, I could do a thesis on the indirect benefits the political propaganda prostitutes don't mention in favor of undocumented foreigners.

I just remembered who the other guy that was no Tuckers show, he was a guy Trump fired, the former Chief of the Border patrol. He disagrees with you and says walls, where implemented, work.

And yes it will be tailored to the border patrols needs, technology along most of the border and walls where needed. And you can brush aside all the facts you want, it just makes you look small when you refuse to recognize the current request is less than 1/40th our annual costs for illegals.

.

More fudged figures. OMG. I already presented two non-partisan studies. Wasn't it you who challenged one of them as being biased ? And I got that study that disagrees with you from someone arguing YOUR points. The bottom line, all B.S. aside, when both sides of the accounting ledger are counted, "it's a wash." That was the term used in several studies over the years. Those are the studies Congress sees.

So are we arguing walls OR costs? Do we have to rehash this crap every 50 or so posts? Save your pecking. Asked and answered in posts 2806, 3475, 3476 and 3613.

This shotgun approach to whatever in the Hell it is you do, is hilarious. Come up with something that has not been responded to. Can you answer any of my questions?

Where do your unalienable Rights come from?

I cited sources, all you have is your spew.,prove them wrong. And I'm citing monetary and human costs to justify the wall. And my rights are irrelevant to this discussion unless I'm killed or injured by an illegal alien tomorrow, they have deprived 10s of thousands of American their rights.

.

Maybe you should have reread that post before making it. Let me put this to you another way:

You can cite all the monetary costs you want. THAT, sir, is THE DISCONNECT.Why are foreigners in the United States working? Foreigners come here because it's profitable. Your lobbying efforts DO NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT BOTH SIDES OF THE ACCOUNTING LEDGER.

That is how you're being proven wrong. You have to look at the contributions foreigners make in order to understand the whole picture. When this is done, from a financial perspective, the foreigners ARE profitable. That is why Bill O'Reilly hired them; it's why Donald Trump uses them.

If you were not such a wall cultist, you would be able to understand that I'm taking this abuse and staying in this discussion because I AM FIGHTING WITH MY VERY LIFE FOR YOUR RIGHTS. I am fighting for YOUR Rights. You are trying to win a war predicated on propaganda, denying the REAL reason foreigners come here, with the false expectation you can keep them out, and without a real understanding of what and why the current immigration laws exist.

Well child if you have been paying attention you'd know I'm all for jailing people that employ illegal aliens, the supposed charities that are helping fund them and provide lawyers to go south of the border to coach them on what to say and help them get settled once they're here. Anyone who harbors or enables illegal aliens should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Also you have yet to explain how the current walls that cover about 1/3rd of the southern border has effected my or anyone else's rights. Or why adding an additional 10% would suddenly cause them to do so.

If you have something to say, lay it out in plain language, with credible links, I'm not concerned with your feelings.

.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

You are only proving a point I've been making since I got on this thread. The Democrats adopted the political idea BEFORE Trump came along. It is not a conservative idea.

The talking points were pioneered by white supremacists and National Socialists back in the 1970s. So, I would presume you have a point?

It's true. In the 2000's us liberals were against illegal immigrants while 75% of the Republican party was arguing they were just here doing jobs Americans won't do. That's a lie.

Do a little math. The Bureau of Labor Statistics says there are 7.6 million unemployed Americans right now. Another 1.5 million Americans are no longer counted because they've become "long term" or "discouraged" unemployed workers. And although various groups have different ways of measuring it, most agree that at least another five to ten million Americans are either working part-time when they want to work full-time, or are "underemployed," doing jobs below their level of training, education, or experience. That's between eight and twenty million un- and under-employed Americans, many unable to find above-poverty-level work.

At the same time, there are between seven and fifteen million working illegal immigrants diluting our labor pool.

If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Between the Reagan years - when there were only around 1 to 2 million illegal aliens in our workforce - and today, we've gone from about 25 percent of our private workforce being unionized to around seven percent. Much of this is the direct result - as César Chávez predicted - of illegal immigrants competing directly with unionized and legal labor. Although it's most obvious in the construction trades over the past 30 years, it's hit all sectors of our economy.

My math is simple:

I run ads on Craigslist, in community papers and list with the Dept. of Labor. People don't even show up for an interview.

I could give you the REAL reason this happens, but it would take more than twenty words and you would not admit it. I can show you a hundred people today under 40 that have never worked a job and they won't. Most of it is the fault of people who back bad legislation because you're wholly uninformed.

Pay more. Supply/Demand economics. What is the job?

I'm a minister with a jobs program. We have temp, temp to perm and permanent jobs in many fields from laborers to farm workers and from warehouse workers to construction / handymen positions.

Whites will not work the jobs.

They do in MA

So, you are immune to this?

White Opioid Users Most Likely to Turn to Heroin | Promises New Jersey