why not make the minimum wage $30 an hour?

[Mr Natural]

I guess that extra quarter you have to pay for a Big Mac will throw the economy into a tailspin.

 

[LOki]

ok let me rephrase that......you do realize that now, a hell of a lot of people, above minimum wage will also ask for a raise .......hows that?....

Why shouldn't they?

Minimum wage increase will push up the low end pay scale. Long overdue

And those laid off as a result who cant find jobs because their skill level isnt worth 15/hr? Ohyeah, you dont give a shit about them.

If I only had a nickle for every time I have heard conservatives pull that one

Raising the minimum wage will lead to unemployment. In decades of minimum wage hikes, it hasn't happened

The market adjusts, just like it does for increases in the price of supplies, energy, taxes or real estate

The market adjusts with price increases. That's precisely the inflation (entirely denied by minimum wage proponents) that eventually puts the minimum wage earner in exactly the same place he was before the minimum wage increase.

That is total bullshit economics that a minimum wage increase will cause enough inflation to negate that increase

The math is not even close

But you said so, and you were right.

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Increasing the cost of goods (through inflation) while devaluing the value of wages (by making $1/hr jobs cost the same as $15/hr jobs) has the precise effect you are now denying.

 

[rightwinger]

Why shouldn't they?

Minimum wage increase will push up the low end pay scale. Long overdue

And those laid off as a result who cant find jobs because their skill level isnt worth 15/hr? Ohyeah, you dont give a shit about them.

If I only had a nickle for every time I have heard conservatives pull that one

Raising the minimum wage will lead to unemployment. In decades of minimum wage hikes, it hasn't happened

The market adjusts, just like it does for increases in the price of supplies, energy, taxes or real estate

The market adjusts with price increases. That's precisely the inflation (entirely denied by minimum wage proponents) that eventually puts the minimum wage earner in exactly the same place he was before the minimum wage increase.

That is total bullshit economics that a minimum wage increase will cause enough inflation to negate that increase

The math is not even close

But you said so, and you were right.

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Increasing the cost of goods (through inflation) while devaluing the value of wages (by making $1/hr jobs cost the same as $15/hr jobs) has the precise effect you are now denying.

Minimum wage workers are 2% of the workforce. Their small slice of the pie will hardly impact the overall inflation rate for goods and services

 

[LOki]

And those laid off as a result who cant find jobs because their skill level isnt worth 15/hr? Ohyeah, you dont give a shit about them.

If I only had a nickle for every time I have heard conservatives pull that one

Raising the minimum wage will lead to unemployment. In decades of minimum wage hikes, it hasn't happened

The market adjusts, just like it does for increases in the price of supplies, energy, taxes or real estate

The market adjusts with price increases. That's precisely the inflation (entirely denied by minimum wage proponents) that eventually puts the minimum wage earner in exactly the same place he was before the minimum wage increase.

That is total bullshit economics that a minimum wage increase will cause enough inflation to negate that increase

The math is not even close

But you said so, and you were right.

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Increasing the cost of goods (through inflation) while devaluing the value of wages (by making $1/hr jobs cost the same as $15/hr jobs) has the precise effect you are now denying.

Minimum wage workers are 2% of the workforce. Their small slice of the pie will hardly impact the overall inflation rate for goods and services

Not if you increase the minimum wage. They will then comprise more than that 2%, and will have the very effect you are now denying.

The effect will be exacerbated by a minimum wage of $30/hr... and even more so by the bullshit "living wage" ponzi schemes advanced by social justice hand wringers.

Of course, even if we were to make the minimum wage $100k/year, in the long run, provided there is no additional government interference, the whole thing would shake out to just about where we are now, except that the same retarded cranks who now gripe that 15k/year is insufficient for the poor, will then claim that 100k/year is insufficient for the poor. So why do we engage in this bullshit? It's because we would like to say, "Human beings, no matter how worthless, are worth something, some minimum." It's a grandiose gesture that a human being's social worth, particiularly to politicians, is equatable to economic worth--despite the fact that determining such worth is so evasive that it has to be established at gunpoint.

 

[HR Pufnstuf]

How about we just bring it to levels equivalent to what I used to make when I made $2 an hour in the 70s

That would be around $15 an hour today

According to the Westegg Inflation Calculator [link provided] $2.00/hr wages in 1975 would actually only equal $8.63/hr in 2014 dollars. So making the minimum wage $15 per hour is almost double the rate of inflation. Also, there are far more assistance programs, such as food stamps, MediCal, WIC and AFDC that did not even exist or were almost impossible to get that are available today. Surely, one must consider these as sources of income to, even if they do not necessarily pay in cash. So those minimum wage workers can have a pretty good life if you include their wages and government programs.

11,700,000 illegal immigrants can't be wrong! [Statistic Brain Numbers Percentages Financials Rankings Statistic Brain

The Inflation Calculator

 

[rightwinger]

How about we just bring it to levels equivalent to what I used to make when I made $2 an hour in the 70s

That would be around $15 an hour today

According to the Westegg Inflation Calculator [link provided] $2.00/hr wages in 1975 would actually only equal $8.63/hr in 2014 dollars. So making the minimum wage $15 per hour is almost double the rate of inflation. Also, there are far more assistance programs, such as food stamps, MediCal, WIC and AFDC that did not even exist or were almost impossible to get that are available today. Surely, one must consider these as sources of income to, even if they do not necessarily pay in cash. So those minimum wage workers can have a pretty good life if you include their wages and government programs.

11,700,000 illegal immigrants can't be wrong! [Statistic Brain Numbers Percentages Financials Rankings Statistic Brain

The Inflation Calculator

Thats the point

Taxpayers should not have to subsidize substandard wages
Used to be, low wage scale workers could support themselves without relying on the taxpayer

 

[LOki]

"A minimum wage is the lowest daily or monthly remuneration that employers may legally pay to workers. Equivalently, it is the price floor below which workers may not sell their labor." It is different from the lowest wage determined by the forces of supply and demand in a free market. Minimum wage laws assert that it is illegal--and therefore a crime--to pay workers less than the regulatory minimum, regardless of what the work is actually worth.

In other words: anybody whose work is not worth the minimum wage set by the government, shall not be employed. Nobody would support any minimum wage law if it were written precisely that way.

So, as an example, an industrious coffee shop owner is forced by the government to pay each employee, regardless of competence or worth, no less than $7.25 to pour coffee and wipe down counters. This means that if there are two employees whose job descriptions are objectively worth $2.00/hr (like pouring coffe and wiping counters for instance) the employer is still obligated to pay them each $7.25/hr--unfair to the employer--and, if one of the two employees' work is worth twice what the other's is, the worth-less employee still gets the same minimum wage as the worthy employee--unfair to the worthy.

But that's not the end of the unfairness--let's say this coffee shop owner works it out so that between the good worker and the worth-less slacker he can get $14.50 of work out of them; breaking even. What that means is that the good worker is not only being over-worked and under-paid, but until the slacker decides to step up productivity some, there's no chance for raises, since the worthy employee's productivity is being stolen to subsidize the slacker's slacking habits--no hope for raises, of course, does nothing to motivate that bong-smoke socialist to do anything but slack off some more.

The injustice is not over yet. Let's assume we are just talking about someonewho really wants to work, and not some glue-huffing retard who thinks his dedication to wearing black fingernail polish, rather than work is merit enough for a rock star's paycheck. Lets also say that "welfare" pays the equvalent of $6.50/hr. What minimum wage says is that even if this guy who wants to work, wanted to work for $7.00/hr, it would be a crime to do so. That despite the agreement between him and the employer that the job is worth $7.00/hr, the government rolls in and declares (in the name of social justice) that this worker's efforts are worth nothing--so much so in fact, that they are willing to pay him $6.50/hr to do nothing! Not only does this guy get less than he could earn, we don't even get the benefit of his services--the job is not being done, or if it is, it's being done by some poor schlep who's desperately trying hard enough to merit his $15k/year job so he doesn't have to be a $11k/year welfare recipient himself--or, this work being done by someone, like you perhaps, who is getting paid well in excess of the minimum wage because your effort merits it, but now your productivity suffers because you are scrubbing the men's room urinals instead of the actual job you were hired for. Then you wonder why you get no raise despite the fact that you're doing both your job and that of the janitor.

So, the result now,is that we have this cup of coffee that costs a quarter in materials, and has to cost the consumer $5.00 to cover the artificially inflated wages of this apathetic, nose-ringed, angst ridden, hemp activist beverage pourer with sanctimonious delusions of socal entitlement.

In order to cover that $5.00 cup of coffee, the guy who actually earns $7.25/hr must be paid $35.00/hr because that's just about where 1 cup of premium coffee, brewed using the best equipment available, served competently and courteuosly should rate against the wages of someone who's work is worth $7.25--that is ~1/5, or ~$1.00. Thanks to minimum wage, your 5-spot is worth only a buck.

You should also be able to predict from this, that the employer of this coffee drinker must inflate the costs of their services to cover the artificially inflated wages of his employees as well, all which continues to erode the value of the 5-spot--not only the 5-spots being spent, but also the 5-spots being use for wages. The real insidious part of minimum wage infaltion is that it works not only to devalue wages, but it also increases prices at the same time. So the government gives the minimum wage recipient a raise--they end up giving everyone else a raise too, while making everything more expensive to buy with a minimum wage; provided employers can still sell enough $5.00 lattes to keep paying minimum wage employees--otherwise: crack whore; the unregulated labor force!

That's right, there's an unregulated labor force out there: prostitution, cock fighting, drug dealing, gun running, child pornography, slavery, burgulary--not to mention "undocumented foriegn laborers." Why are there so many Mexicans and Southeast Asians working under the table in the U.S.? Is it because they have a penchant for exploitation? Hell no! They're here because some jobs are really worth less than $7.25/hr, and they're willing to take that wage, and that's more than they'd make in the country where they were being exploited.

Which brings up racism. That's right; the minimum wage is racist. In this country minimum wage means being white is worth no less than $7.25/hr. How does this work? Like this: If 2 prospective employees--one black, one white, but otherwise equal--apply for a minimum wage job, Mr. AryanFront employer can hire white guy with a crew cut and golf shirt at no financial cost--none. He doesn't even have to worry about his competitors picking up the aspiring black worker for less, because they too have to pay him $7.25/hr. If this black worker were allowed to contract his labor for $5.00/hr, or $7.24 even, choosing the white guy would cost RacistJackass $2.25/hr (or $0.01 depending). Moreover, his competitors, if not racist, have the opportunity to hire the black worker at a cost advantage.

If you think this is not the case, you should check out how the white dominated unions in apartheid South Africa complained that the lack of minimum wage regulations led employers to hire cheap black laborers over better trained and better paid white folks. Which, coincidentally was exactly the same argument (check the cogressional record) used by Robert Bacon when he wrote the Davis-Bacon Act (the first minmum wage law) in response to Southern contractors bringing black labor to a federal project in his Long Island district; a labor regulation which forces contractors engaged in government contracts to pay employees union wage scale (unions, which incidently were, at the time, usually exclusively white); effectively barring Southern blacks and immigrants from working on plush, government funded construction projects.

Minimum wage doesn't neccessarily have to be racist; on it's best day, minimum wage is only a state sponsored protection for older, higher paid workers from the competition of anyone who would accept less pay for the same work. The surprise for me was that though I understood that minimum wage and Davis-Bacon were, in observable and measurable effect, racist policies--I just had no idea that they were racist in intent. It's not my intent to describe why I think racism is wrong, so back to this coffee shop owner I've been discussing.

Consider for the moment that a pound of premium coffee only costs the coffee shop owner about the same $7.25 he's paying his internally and eternally disgruntled employee each hour. I say "only" because it most likely comes from a nation without a state inflated minimum wage; if it did, then eveybody from the bean-bag loader on up would have to be subsidized by the coffee drinker, and that half-caf-2%-double vanilla latte with nutmeg and cinnamon would cost $25.00 instead of the extortionate $5.00 already causing wallet anurisms everywhere.

Things could be worse; we could be subject to the ridiculous notions of "Living Wage" proponents. These short sighted assholes believe any job worth doing for 40 hours a week (even if done poorly) is worth a wage one can live on. It's a career. Like pouring fuking coffee for instance. The thrust (in all our asses) is that if someone's intelligence, talent, industriousness, or abition limits their social contribution to pouring coffee, their claim on society for food, clothing, shelter, medical care, education, and pension (not to mention esteem, respect, affirmation and validation) should NOT be limited--and that it is morally valid to make that unlimitied claim at (government) gunpoint.

I doubt that anyone could argue that $100k/year is insufficent to cover the substistence of a family of 4, let alone an individual. You don't have to be an economist as savvy as Greenspan to predict that guaranteeing everyone in the country $100k salary would soon lead to rampant inflation and the loss of jobs (like pouring coffee) that no one under any circumstance will pay $100k for--leaving the poor unable to afford a $100.00 box of Rice Krispies, or any thing else for that matter.

Living wage is just the expansion of minimum wage to dumbass proportions. Minimum wage is morally and fiscally bankrupt for the same reasons that Living wage is; and Living wage is morally and fiscally bankrupt as for the exact same reasons that giving everyone in the country $100k salary would be--and ultimately just as impotent.

Artificially devaluing the rewards for productive capacity (by artificially making $1.00/hr worth of work pay any amount more, say $50.00/hr, for instance) requires more money to be printed because buyers and sellers still know what shit is worth regardless of what the government says about the dollars. Printing more money, without also increasing productivity must lead inevitably to inflation. It does so because there is just more money around--printing new money is not the same thing as creating new wealth.

Introducing all that new money into the economy will not make every citizen more wealthy--they will just have more money. Having more money is of little consolation when it takes twice your daily wages to get a day's worth of food.

The real irony is that those who propose these "wage justice" ponzi schemes do so for the alleged benefit of the poor; yet inflation can benefit the rich that these assholes are opposed to on their bullshit principles. Inflation benefits those who can afford to put their excess wealth into real goods like land, durable goods, stocks, and art. So, if these folks have excess stuff to sell, stuff purchased at pre-inflationary prices--stocks perhaps, they not only get to experience capital gains (if the value of the stock grew) but also the profits from the new inflated price structure.

Those who can merely save, get crushed by the fact that the $10.00 they set aside last week will be worth only $9.00 next week. In fact, everyone who acts as a lender, wether it's being a savings account holder, health insurance owner, IRA, 401k, homeowner's insurance, bond holding, etc., get shafted because the money you are being payed back with is worth less than the money you contributed, which cuts into, or negates your interest dividend.

So, those who can have a $5.00 cup of coffee (or a $10.00 loaf of bread) and still have money left over are the ones who could invest. Those filthy 1%ers--they are the ones who can sell their cheaply aquired stock at a profit for no other reason than the government drove the price up. And if they still have that same inflated amount of money should inflation recede, they realize a government granted windfall that those unable to afford expensive durable goods, stocks, and $50.00 bowls of cornflakes can't. You should now be able to predict what this (ahem) "trickle-up" economic policy means for those at the top of the economic food chain--particularly those who are already rich: a big fat unearned raise provided artificially, through the use of force, by the government. Those at the bottom get a wage (if they still have a job) that just looks better than the one they had before, but oddly provides so much less. Well done!

 

[Slyhunter]

Conservatives chant.... You are not expected to support yourself on minimum wage

But you can't even do the basic things in life to get started on a minimum wage anymore. Pay for college, buy a car, pay for a small apartment

Buying a car and paying for college are not "basics", Nutjobber. There's your problem right there.

It is if you want to compete...

If you're relying on a min wage job to put you through college you arent competing.

What other job would you be able to get that will get you that college degree? There are only minimum wage jobs available for people, even if they have an AA degree, much less simply a high school diploma. How else are they supposed to pay for college?

So everyone is working for MW? Is that really your belief?

Here in Florida, yeah. top pay around here is 10 bucks an hour.

 

[HR Pufnstuf]

And those laid off as a result who cant find jobs because their skill level isnt worth 15/hr? Ohyeah, you dont give a shit about them.

If I only had a nickle for every time I have heard conservatives pull that one

Raising the minimum wage will lead to unemployment. In decades of minimum wage hikes, it hasn't happened

The market adjusts, just like it does for increases in the price of supplies, energy, taxes or real estate

The market adjusts with price increases. That's precisely the inflation (entirely denied by minimum wage proponents) that eventually puts the minimum wage earner in exactly the same place he was before the minimum wage increase.

That is total bullshit economics that a minimum wage increase will cause enough inflation to negate that increase

The math is not even close

But you said so, and you were right.

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Increasing the cost of goods (through inflation) while devaluing the value of wages (by making $1/hr jobs cost the same as $15/hr jobs) has the precise effect you are now denying.

Minimum wage workers are 2% of the workforce. Their small slice of the pie will hardly impact the overall inflation rate for goods and services

Here are some interesting statistics for Rightwinger who seems to love them.
1 Teenagers between 16 and 19 comprise the single largest age group of minimum wage workers.
Why does 16-19 year old unskilled and often first time in the job market need or deserve $15/hr? Most still live at home where the basics such as food, shelter and health care are provided by their parents. Their wages are most often discretionary income and not needed to live off of.
2. A Majority Of Those Who Earn The Minimum Wage Work In Food Preparation Or Sales
These jobs have always been jobs that are intended to be first time jobs. As the worker develops more skills and/or education they move to better paying jobs more commensurate with their capabilities.
3. One-Third Of Minimum Wage Workers Either Dropped Out Of Or Never Attended High School
Education is the best way out of a minimum wage job and many do not take advantage of the educational possibilities they are afforded. That does not mean that everyone else should have to pay, in higher costs, for their poor personal decisions.
4. A Full-Time Minimum Wage Worker In 2014 Will Make 24 Percent More Than The Federal Poverty Limit
This should be adequate for a teenager living at home. For those older workers with families there are are many social programs to help.
5. There Are Nearly Six Times More Minimum Wage Workers Today Than In 2007
This I lay squarely at the feet of this president. His dismal "economic recovery" continues to only generate these types of jobs. And before you blame Bush, he has been gone 7 years and it is time for Obama to take responsibility for his own mistakes at last.

11 Facts About The Minimum Wage That President Obama Forgot To Mention

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

How about we just bring it to levels equivalent to what I used to make when I made $2 an hour in the 70s

That would be around $15 an hour today

$2/hour? I made more than that when I worked part-time for a Veterinarian when I was in high school in the 70's.

No wonder you're so bitter.

 

[Moonglow]

How about we just bring it to levels equivalent to what I used to make when I made $2 an hour in the 70s

That would be around $15 an hour today

$2/hour? I made more than that when I worked part-time for a Veterinarian when I was in high school in the 70's.

No wonder you're so bitter.

I was making 5 an hour as a commercial laborer..in 1978..

 

[Harry Dresden]

How about we just bring it to levels equivalent to what I used to make when I made $2 an hour in the 70s

That would be around $15 an hour today

you do realize that now, everyone above minimum wage will ask for a raise .....

Everyone is a great exaggeration. If min wage was increased I sure wouldn't be asking for a raise.

ok let me rephrase that......you do realize that now, a hell of a lot of people, above minimum wage will also ask for a raise .......hows that?....

Why shouldn't they?

Minimum wage increase will push up the low end pay scale. Long overdue

with all the raises,how many will have to be laid off to cover the salaries?....

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

How about we just bring it to levels equivalent to what I used to make when I made $2 an hour in the 70s

That would be around $15 an hour today

you do realize that now, everyone above minimum wage will ask for a raise .....

Everyone is a great exaggeration. If min wage was increased I sure wouldn't be asking for a raise.

ok let me rephrase that......you do realize that now, a hell of a lot of people, above minimum wage will also ask for a raise .......hows that?....

Why shouldn't they?

Minimum wage increase will push up the low end pay scale. Long overdue

with all the raises,how many will have to be laid off to cover the salaries?....

It doesn't matter.. it's all BS. Just look at the demographic. The notion that al these people are trying to raise families on MW is total BS.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Buying a car and paying for college are not "basics", Nutjobber. There's your problem right there.

They are when you are starting out in life....which is what conservatives claim the minimum wage is for

Buying your own car? No, Nutjobber. Your own car is not a basic. Taking public transporation and car pooling are basic.

Coming from the same conservatives who oppose public transportation

Minimum wage used to provide a wage you could actually get started in life on. Pay for college. Buy a car. Get a small apartment

Now all it does is provide a low cost labor pool

Min wage never did that.
Another fail by Nutjobber.

Did when I was making minimum wage in the 70s ($2.10 an hour)

you were able to pay rent,get a car,go to the JC,and you were still able to buy pot?...

 

[HR Pufnstuf]

How about we just bring it to levels equivalent to what I used to make when I made $2 an hour in the 70s

That would be around $15 an hour today

According to the Westegg Inflation Calculator [link provided] $2.00/hr wages in 1975 would actually only equal $8.63/hr in 2014 dollars. So making the minimum wage $15 per hour is almost double the rate of inflation. Also, there are far more assistance programs, such as food stamps, MediCal, WIC and AFDC that did not even exist or were almost impossible to get that are available today. Surely, one must consider these as sources of income to, even if they do not necessarily pay in cash. So those minimum wage workers can have a pretty good life if you include their wages and government programs.

11,700,000 illegal immigrants can't be wrong! [Statistic Brain Numbers Percentages Financials Rankings Statistic Brain

The Inflation Calculator

Thats the point

Taxpayers should not have to subsidize substandard wages
Used to be, low wage scale workers could support themselves without relying on the taxpayer

 

[HR Pufnstuf]

How about we just bring it to levels equivalent to what I used to make when I made $2 an hour in the 70s

That would be around $15 an hour today

According to the Westegg Inflation Calculator [link provided] $2.00/hr wages in 1975 would actually only equal $8.63/hr in 2014 dollars. So making the minimum wage $15 per hour is almost double the rate of inflation. Also, there are far more assistance programs, such as food stamps, MediCal, WIC and AFDC that did not even exist or were almost impossible to get that are available today. Surely, one must consider these as sources of income to, even if they do not necessarily pay in cash. So those minimum wage workers can have a pretty good life if you include their wages and government programs.

11,700,000 illegal immigrants can't be wrong! [Statistic Brain Numbers Percentages Financials Rankings Statistic Brain

The Inflation Calculator

Thats the point

Taxpayers should not have to subsidize substandard wages
Used to be, low wage scale workers could support themselves without relying on the taxpayer

 

[rightwinger]

How about we just bring it to levels equivalent to what I used to make when I made $2 an hour in the 70s

That would be around $15 an hour today

you do realize that now, everyone above minimum wage will ask for a raise .....

Everyone is a great exaggeration. If min wage was increased I sure wouldn't be asking for a raise.

ok let me rephrase that......you do realize that now, a hell of a lot of people, above minimum wage will also ask for a raise .......hows that?....

Why shouldn't they?

Minimum wage increase will push up the low end pay scale. Long overdue

with all the raises,how many will have to be laid off to cover the salaries?....

How many have been working for years without a raise?
How many saw anything from the economic recovery?

 

[Rexx Taylor]

30 hr? then we will have to give all the call girls a raise to 60.00 hr.

 

[HR Pufnstuf]

"Used to be, low wage scale workers could support themselves without relying on the taxpayer."

This is not true. Those same workers did rely on taxpayers to support them- their parents. Just like now the minimum wage was not meant to be a living wage. Also, if the minimum wage janitor/delivery person wages goes from $9/hr to $15/hr then as a skilled press operator (printer) my wages should also go up an equal percentage. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Harry Dresden]

you do realize that now, everyone above minimum wage will ask for a raise .....

Everyone is a great exaggeration. If min wage was increased I sure wouldn't be asking for a raise.

ok let me rephrase that......you do realize that now, a hell of a lot of people, above minimum wage will also ask for a raise .......hows that?....

Why shouldn't they?

Minimum wage increase will push up the low end pay scale. Long overdue

with all the raises,how many will have to be laid off to cover the salaries?....

How many have been working for years without a raise?
How many saw anything from the economic recovery?

thats not answering my question.....if min.wage went up to 15 bucks right now,everyone from the former min.wage up until 14 an hour would get a raise,thats a lot of people......and many who were at 15 and above will probably expect a raise too....so how many will now be laid off to cover the payroll increase?....