Why Republican's Position is so Weak

[Nyvin]

1. They have no alternative - They say "Obamacare is awful, terrible, bad bad bad!!" yet they have no alternative system ready, they suggest we go back to the status quo which we all know is awful and terribly expensive.

2. They have no unified voice - John Boehner says "yes" to the CR bill without ACA in it back in june, then he turns around and puts ACA into the bill. The mainstream Repubs want to go one way, the tea party wants to go another. How far Ted Cruz is willing to go differs from how far John Mccain wants to go.

3. They have nothing to offer - Like it or not, Obama is in the white house and there are 54 democratic senators in the Senate Chamber. The GOP needs their okay to shut it down, how do they get that okay? what do they give up for that yes vote?? They have ~NOTHING~. Funding the government or raising the debt limit are not things to be "offered" they're part of doing your job as a congressman.

4. The law is going forward anyway - Obstruction for the past 3 years didn't stop it, Shutting down the government didn't stop it. It will not be stopped, it's coming like it or not. Once the technical issues are dealt with it will continue powering along, and there isn't any catastrophic events happening so the "ACA Boogeyman" is becoming a very hard sell.

5. The law has been through enough - Passing congress, getting president's approval, verified by the supreme court, Obama re-elected in 2012...how much more do they want? The law hasn't even been fully implemented so just saying "it's going to be terrible" isn't a good selling point.

6. and finally...Polls - Every poll puts the blame on Republicans, even the best case polls puts them behind "but not by all that much!" and usually it's because of wording that they get "close" to being tied. The public is against them. It's a tremendously difficult image to sell and they aren't selling it. Over the course of the shutdown the polling numbers have only gotten worse and most likely will continue to degrade, which is probably what lead Boehner to finally accept the temp raise in the debt limit, which I see as the beginning of the end.

In conclusion...the Republicans are basically running on tea party steam and hot air to keep this crusade going, and it will only last as long as the moderate republicans want it to. It's an indefensible spot to be in, one that is damaging their party and accomplishing nothing and going nowhere. The public sees this, the democrats see this, Obama sees this, even moderate GOPers see this....It. isn't. working. They're standing on a very weak podium, and the cracks are showing up everywhere.

 

[Claudette]

Guess we'll see who get the blame when the public get a real good look at the ACA.

 

[TemplarKormac]

1. They have no alternative - They say "Obamacare is awful, terrible, bad bad bad!!" yet they have no alternative system ready, they suggest we go back to the status quo which we all know is awful and terribly expensive.

2. They have no unified voice - John Boehner says "yes" to the CR bill without ACA in it back in june, then he turns around and puts ACA into the bill. The mainstream Repubs want to go one way, the tea party wants to go another. How far Ted Cruz is willing to go differs from how far John Mccain wants to go.

3. They have nothing to offer - Like it or not, Obama is in the white house and there are 54 democratic senators in the Senate Chamber. The GOP needs their okay to shut it down, how do they get that okay? what do they give up for that yes vote?? They have ~NOTHING~. Funding the government or raising the debt limit are not things to be "offered" they're part of doing your job as a congressman.

4. The law is going forward anyway - Obstruction for the past 3 years didn't stop it, Shutting down the government didn't stop it. It will not be stopped, it's coming like it or not. Once the technical issues are dealt with it will continue powering along, and there isn't any catastrophic events happening so the "ACA Boogeyman" is becoming a very hard sell.

5. The law has been through enough - Passing congress, getting president's approval, verified by the supreme court, Obama re-elected in 2012...how much more do they want? The law hasn't even been fully implemented so just saying "it's going to be terrible" isn't a good selling point.

6. and finally...Polls - Every poll puts the blame on Republicans, even the best case polls puts them behind "but not by all that much!" and usually it's because of wording that they get "close" to being tied. The public is against them. It's a tremendously difficult image to sell and they aren't selling it. Over the course of the shutdown the polling numbers have only gotten worse and most likely will continue to degrade, which is probably what lead Boehner to finally accept the temp raise in the debt limit, which I see as the beginning of the end.

In conclusion...the Republicans are basically running on tea party steam and hot air to keep this crusade going, and it will only last as long as the moderate republicans want it to. It's an indefensible spot to be in, one that is damaging their party and accomplishing nothing and going nowhere. The public sees this, the democrats see this, Obama sees this, even moderate GOPers see this....It. isn't. working. They're standing on a very weak podium, and the cracks are showing up everywhere.

1. They offered an alternative and were soundly rejected. That's lie No. 1.

House Republicans file, promote an alternative to Obamacare - Washington Times

2. Last time I checked, neither do the Democrats. He bucked his own party when he amended and delayed the ACA. It appears that he acts independently of what his party wants. That's lie No. 2.

3. The House controls the purse strings. The Constitution says so. They can at anytime reject any bills and consequently shut down the government at any time they feel the need to. The Senate is not the penultimate authority on the subject. That's lie No. 3.

4. The law is failing, dying on it's feet. As you have already seen, the rollout doesn't look too hot. A $500 million website that has been on the fritz for the past ten days doesn't indicate the law will go forward on it's own anyway. The CBO said that in order for the law not to collapse, it needed at a minimum 7 million enrolled in the exchanges. Only 2 million have applied. The progression of the law is moot at this point. That's lie No. 4.

5. So, this law has been through enough? Good, it needs to be put out of it's misery. It was nullified as a law the moment it was amended and delayed by President Obama. Technically speaking, any amendments and delays must be approved by Congress. Not by executive fiat. That's lie No. 5.

6. A Pew Research poll found that both Democrats and Republicans would share the blame for a shutdown. Obama's approval rating also shows he is also being blamed for this shutdown as well, sitting at 37%. That's your last lie, No.6.

In conclusion, your soapbox is made out of wet cardboard.

 

[Eaglewings]

1. They have no alternative - They say "Obamacare is awful, terrible, bad bad bad!!" yet they have no alternative system ready, they suggest we go back to the status quo which we all know is awful and terribly expensive.

2. They have no unified voice - John Boehner says "yes" to the CR bill without ACA in it back in june, then he turns around and puts ACA into the bill. The mainstream Repubs want to go one way, the tea party wants to go another. How far Ted Cruz is willing to go differs from how far John Mccain wants to go.

3. They have nothing to offer - Like it or not, Obama is in the white house and there are 54 democratic senators in the Senate Chamber. The GOP needs their okay to shut it down, how do they get that okay? what do they give up for that yes vote?? They have ~NOTHING~. Funding the government or raising the debt limit are not things to be "offered" they're part of doing your job as a congressman.

4. The law is going forward anyway - Obstruction for the past 3 years didn't stop it, Shutting down the government didn't stop it. It will not be stopped, it's coming like it or not. Once the technical issues are dealt with it will continue powering along, and there isn't any catastrophic events happening so the "ACA Boogeyman" is becoming a very hard sell.

5. The law has been through enough - Passing congress, getting president's approval, verified by the supreme court, Obama re-elected in 2012...how much more do they want? The law hasn't even been fully implemented so just saying "it's going to be terrible" isn't a good selling point.

6. and finally...Polls - Every poll puts the blame on Republicans, even the best case polls puts them behind "but not by all that much!" and usually it's because of wording that they get "close" to being tied. The public is against them. It's a tremendously difficult image to sell and they aren't selling it. Over the course of the shutdown the polling numbers have only gotten worse and most likely will continue to degrade, which is probably what lead Boehner to finally accept the temp raise in the debt limit, which I see as the beginning of the end.

In conclusion...the Republicans are basically running on tea party steam and hot air to keep this crusade going, and it will only last as long as the moderate republicans want it to. It's an indefensible spot to be in, one that is damaging their party and accomplishing nothing and going nowhere. The public sees this, the democrats see this, Obama sees this, even moderate GOPers see this....It. isn't. working. They're standing on a very weak podium, and the cracks are showing up everywhere.

1. They offered an alternative and were soundly rejected. That's lie No. 1.

House Republicans file, promote an alternative to Obamacare - Washington Times

2. Last time I checked, neither do the Democrats. He bucked his own party when he amended and delayed the ACA. It appears that he acts independently of what his party wants. That's lie No. 2.

3. The house controls the purse strings. The Constitution says so. They can at anytime reject any bills and consequently shut down the government at any time they feel the need to. The Senate is not the penultimate authority on the subject. That's lie No. 3.

4. The law is failing, dying on it's feet. As you have already seen, the rollout doesn't look too hot. A $500 million website that has been on the fritz for the past ten days doesn't indicate the law will go forward on it's own anyway. The CBO said that in order for the law not to collapse, it needed at a minimum 7 million enrolled in the exchanges. Only 2 million have applied. The progression of the law is moot at this point. That's lie No. 4.

5. So, this law has been through enough? Good, it needs to be put out of it's misery. It was nullified as a law the moment it was amended and delayed by President Obama. Technically speaking, any amendments and delays must be approved by Congress. Not by executive fiat. That's lie No. 5.

6. A Pew Research poll found that both Democrats and Republicans would share the blame for a shutdown. Obama's approval rating also shows he is also being blamed for this shutdown as well, sitting at 37%. That's your last lie, No.6.

In conclusion, your soapbox is made out of wet cardboard.

Interesting that you mention the Republican alternative but fail to put a link nor any info. Basically it takes away from the people, and as usual the rich get richer.. Ummm I wonder why it was not even considered.




The Good

In place of the current system of excluding employer health expenses from the employees’ taxable income, the plan would give people a standard health deduction of $7,500 (individual) or $20,000 (family), regardless of how much the insurance actually cost. The incentive effects here are very good. No longer could people lower their taxes by spending more on health insurance or face additional taxes if they find ways to economize.
HSA restrictions would be substantially liberalized, including allowing HRA deposits to be withdrawn as taxable income (which would double the number of people who can now do that), letting FSAs roll over (effectively creating 35 million new HSA accounts) and extending the HSA concept to Medicaid.


The Bad

Unlike the more familiar idea of a tax credit (with the same subsidy for everyone), this approach gives the largest tax break to the highest income earners. It is probably even more regressive than the current system. [And there is absolutely no defensible reason for structuring it this way!]
It solves the pre-existing condition problem by making health insurance guaranteed issue for anyone with continuous coverage. This gives plans incentives to dump their sickest enrollees on other plans and creates other perverse incentives for buyers and sellers of insurance. It’s possible that these perverse incentives may be worse than similar incentives under ObamaCare.

The Ugly
The plan takes away the ObamaCare subsidies for an estimated 25 million newly insured and has no provision to help the roughly half of the population that pays no income tax.
Based on CBO estimates of a Bush administration proposal it looks like this proposal could un-insure as many as 20 million voters—oops, I mean people.

GOP Health Plan: Good, Bad and Ugly | Psychology Today

 

[Nyvin]

1. They offered an alternative and were soundly rejected. That's lie No. 1.

House Republicans file, promote an alternative to Obamacare - Washington Times

No GOP proposals was ever put into a cohesive bill and voted on. They have hodge podge "ideas" that are little more then talking points. "look! we have health reform!" only they don't, they can't agree on a health reform bill, they don't have one...if ACA were to shut down we would go back to the status quo, end of story.

2. Last time I checked, neither do the Democrats. He bucked his own party when he amended and delayed the ACA. It appears that he acts independently of what his party wants. That's lie No. 2.

Yes the democrats do - "Give us a clean CR bill and raise the debt limit" That's pretty darn unified and isn't very controversial.

3. The house controls the purse strings. The Constitution says so. They can at anytime reject any bills and consequently shut down the government at any time they feel the need to. The Senate is not the penultimate authority on the subject. That's lie No. 3.

Irrelevant, the House's decisions require the approval of the President and Senate. The Senate can no vote on the house's bills, the president can veto.

4. The law is failing, dying on it's feet. As you have already seen, the rollout doesn't look too hot. A $500 million website that has been on the fritz for the past ten days doesn't indicate the law will go forward on it's own anyway. The CBO said that in order for the law not to collapse, it needed at a minimum 7 million enrolled in the exchanges. Only 2 million have applied. The progression of the law is moot at this point. That's lie No. 4.

As I already said - once the technical issues are dealt with it will continue powering along. A lot of state run exchanges are actually doing really well, look at Minnesota's exchange!

5. So, this law has been through enough? Good, it needs to be put out of it's misery. It was nullified as a law the moment it was amended and delayed by President Obama. Technically speaking, any amendments and delays must be approved by Congress. Not by executive fiat. That's lie No. 5.

Yes it has been through enough, and it's not clear if Obama can delay the employer mandate or not, so I can't really debate that.

6. A Pew Research poll found that both Democrats and Republicans would share the blame for a shutdown. Obama's approval rating also shows he is also being blamed for this shutdown as well, sitting at 37%. That's your last lie, No.6.

Show me a poll that blames democrats more then republicans for the shutdown. The larger trend is blaming republicans.

 

[DGS49]

1. There is only one poll that matters, and it takes place every other November. Everything else is meaningless.

2. ObamaCare is the first and only time a major national policy change and a gigantic new federal program was implemented without bi-partisan support. Polling on whether people like it or not is absurd when the vast majority of Americans don't know how it will affect them. Consider: The law allows insurance companies to charge a 50% premium on smokers, but they can't charge you any premium or surcharge if you have AIDS.

3. It is a typical democrat program that provides a significant benefit to a tiny fraction of the population, at a huge cost to everyone else. Their hope is that when it goes through fully it will never be able to be rolled back because they will always be able to trot out a few people with sob stories who would now be devastated if their goodies were taken away. More government dependents...always more government dependents. That is the only real program on the Left.

4. The government is not "shut down." The only difference between now and September 30th is that the government MAY NOT GO ANY FURTHER INTO DEBT. That is, the federal government must survive on its current revenues, without more borrowing. If the general public understood this basic fact, most would support a PERMANENT "shut down" like the one we have now.

5. If ACA is so good, why has the White House given exemptions to so many politically-connected applicants? And since when does the Executive Branch get to waive provisions of laws? Technically speaking, this is bullshit.

 

[TemplarKormac]

1. They offered an alternative and were soundly rejected. That's lie No. 1.

House Republicans file, promote an alternative to Obamacare - Washington Times

No GOP proposals was ever put into a cohesive bill and voted on. They have hodge podge "ideas" that are little more then talking points. "look! we have health reform!" only they don't, they can't agree on a health reform bill, they don't have one...if ACA were to shut down we would go back to the status quo, end of story.

2. Last time I checked, neither do the Democrats. He bucked his own party when he amended and delayed the ACA. It appears that he acts independently of what his party wants. That's lie No. 2.

Yes the democrats do - "Give us a clean CR bill and raise the debt limit" That's pretty darn unified and isn't very controversial.



Irrelevant, the House's decisions require the approval of the President and Senate. The Senate can no vote on the house's bills, the president can veto.



As I already said - once the technical issues are dealt with it will continue powering along. A lot of state run exchanges are actually doing really well, look at Minnesota's exchange!

5. So, this law has been through enough? Good, it needs to be put out of it's misery. It was nullified as a law the moment it was amended and delayed by President Obama. Technically speaking, any amendments and delays must be approved by Congress. Not by executive fiat. That's lie No. 5.

Yes it has been through enough, and it's not clear if Obama can delay the employer mandate or not, so I can't really debate that.

6. A Pew Research poll found that both Democrats and Republicans would share the blame for a shutdown. Obama's approval rating also shows he is also being blamed for this shutdown as well, sitting at 37%. That's your last lie, No.6.

Show me a poll that blames democrats more then republicans for the shutdown. The larger trend is blaming republicans.

First, there have been plenty of bills and proposals introduced by Republicans between 2001 and 2013:

Ten Steps to Transform Health Care in America Act (S. 1783) introduced by Senator Mike Enzi (R-WY) July 12, 2007.


Every American Insured Health Act introduced by Senators Richard Burr (R-NC) and Bob Corker (R-TN) with co-sponsors Tom Coburn (R-OK), Mel Martinez (formerly R-FL) and Elizabeth Dole (formerly R-NC) on July 26, 2007.

Senators Bob Bennett (R-UT) and Ron Wyden (D-OR) introduced the Healthy Americans Act on January 18, 2007 and re-introduced the same bill on February 5, 2009.


Patients’ Choice Act of 2009 introduced by Senators Tom Coburn (R-OK) and Richard Burr (R-NC) and Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) and Devin Nunes (R-CA) on May 20, 2009.

H.R. 2300, Empowering Patients First Act introduced July 30, 2009 by Rep. Tom Price (R-GA).

Individual Pay or Play proposed in 2005 by John Goodman; this is a minimalist version of a broader reform envisaged by Goodman built on converting the tax exclusion into universal tax credits.

Health Status Insurance originally proposed by John Cochrane in 1995.

Universal Health Savings Accounts proposed by John Goodman and Peter Ferrara in 2012. This combines fixed tax credits with individual pay or play and health status insurance concepts along with Roth-style Health Savings Accounts.

Fixed tax credits. A variety of proposals have centered on using fix tax credits to replace the current inefficient and unfair tax exclusion for employer-provided health benefits. Two good explanations of how that would work are here:
James C. Capretta and Robert E. Moffit, “How to Replace Obamacare,” National Affairs, no. 11 (Spring 2012). James C. Capretta. Constructing an Alternative to Obamacare: Key Details for a Practical Replacement Program. American Enterprise Institute, December 2012.


Income-Related Tax Credits proposed by Mark Pauly and John Hoff in Responsible Tax Credits (2002) and endorsed by the American Medical Association. More recently, 8 scholars from Harvard, University of Chicago, and USC–Jay Bhattacharya, Amitabh Chandra, Michael Chernew, Dana Goldman, Anupam Jena, Darius Lakdawalla,Anup Malani and Tomas Philipson—released Best of Both Worlds: Uniting Universal Coverage and Personal Choice in Health Care (2013) which also is built around a model of individual health insurance subsidized with income-related tax credits.

Flexible Benefits Tax Credit For Health Insurance by Lynn Etheredge in 2001.

Near-Universal Health Insurance Exchanges proposed in 2001 by Sara Singer, Alan Garber and Alain Enthoven (covers only non-elderly).

Universal Health Insurance Exchanges proposed in 2013 by former CBO director Douglas Holtz-Eakin and Avik Roy (covers Medicare and Medicaid in addition to privately insured).


On top of that Bush made a sweeping healthcare proposal in 2007 that Democrats declared "dead on arrival." in the Senate.

So, tell me, why did his key voting bloc up and suddenly reject the ACA? They read it. And please show me where in the Constitution it says that that any actions by the house require approval by the Senate and the President? If you ever paid attention in civics class, the President answers to Congress. It's called "checks and balances." You can't defend Obama's illegal actions regarding the amendments and delay of the ACA. Nowhere in the Constitution does it allow him to do what he did. That is the only reason you cannot debate it. Read the Constitution. I won't show you a poll that blames one party more than the other for this shutdown, I provided a poll that shares the blame equally.

Toast.

 

[Montecresto]

1. They have no alternative - They say "Obamacare is awful, terrible, bad bad bad!!" yet they have no alternative system ready, they suggest we go back to the status quo which we all know is awful and terribly expensive.

2. They have no unified voice - John Boehner says "yes" to the CR bill without ACA in it back in june, then he turns around and puts ACA into the bill. The mainstream Repubs want to go one way, the tea party wants to go another. How far Ted Cruz is willing to go differs from how far John Mccain wants to go.

3. They have nothing to offer - Like it or not, Obama is in the white house and there are 54 democratic senators in the Senate Chamber. The GOP needs their okay to shut it down, how do they get that okay? what do they give up for that yes vote?? They have ~NOTHING~. Funding the government or raising the debt limit are not things to be "offered" they're part of doing your job as a congressman.

4. The law is going forward anyway - Obstruction for the past 3 years didn't stop it, Shutting down the government didn't stop it. It will not be stopped, it's coming like it or not. Once the technical issues are dealt with it will continue powering along, and there isn't any catastrophic events happening so the "ACA Boogeyman" is becoming a very hard sell.

5. The law has been through enough - Passing congress, getting president's approval, verified by the supreme court, Obama re-elected in 2012...how much more do they want? The law hasn't even been fully implemented so just saying "it's going to be terrible" isn't a good selling point.

6. and finally...Polls - Every poll puts the blame on Republicans, even the best case polls puts them behind "but not by all that much!" and usually it's because of wording that they get "close" to being tied. The public is against them. It's a tremendously difficult image to sell and they aren't selling it. Over the course of the shutdown the polling numbers have only gotten worse and most likely will continue to degrade, which is probably what lead Boehner to finally accept the temp raise in the debt limit, which I see as the beginning of the end.

In conclusion...the Republicans are basically running on tea party steam and hot air to keep this crusade going, and it will only last as long as the moderate republicans want it to. It's an indefensible spot to be in, one that is damaging their party and accomplishing nothing and going nowhere. The public sees this, the democrats see this, Obama sees this, even moderate GOPers see this....It. isn't. working. They're standing on a very weak podium, and the cracks are showing up everywhere.

America is weak dude, and all the partisan drivel isn't going to fix a damn thing. This isn't a football game where you pick your team and rah, rah! Our very existence as a constitutional republic is at stake and you guys come on here every day and point fingers back and forth. This is pathetic, and leaves little hope for improvement.

 

[Avatar4321]

Wow. way to start off the thread with a whopper of a lie.

No alternative? There is a real good alternative. It's called The Free Market. It's what has given us the greatest health care system in the world in the First place. It requires that we as individuals be responsible for our own health care. I know this is a radical concept for some people. But it truly is the best system.

See, when you try to outsource your personal responsibility for your own health to others such as the government, you don't end up having the good health you might otherwise have. When you start demanding people give you their services for free, it's not entirely shocking that their desire to give you good care decreases. When you create regulation after regulation, you have doctors and nurses doing more and more to satisfy government requirements than provide care for patients.

But this does actually require you to be responsible. It requires you to be responsible for yourself and for your loved ones. Which is probably why there are so many people who want to turn responsibility over to the government as much as possible. Because we have a culture of people who don't want to be responsible.

Is it really worth it though? Will outsourcing our responsibilities to the government really make our lives easier when we, through neglect, are sick more often? Will it make our lives easier when there is even poorer care for those in need? Is it worth the lives that will be lost for the illusion of security in our health?

Personally, I don't think so. But I can't make your decisions for you.

 

[bendog]

You lost two elections. Get the f over it. Personally I didn't like Obamacare ... but it's fkcing OVER

 

[Avatar4321]

You lost two elections. Get the f over it. Personally I didn't like Obamacare ... but it's fkcing OVER

We live in a representative Republic. Nothing is over. Because what we voted for last year can be repealed this year. What we voted against this year can be passed next year.

You act like laws cannot and do not change. That's precisely the whole point of the legislature.

ACA is bad law. Everyone knows it's bad law. Why the heck should we stand aside and let real people be hurt by those law when we can overturn it?

 

[bendog]

The OP is why the gop's postiion is so weak. Your posts are a posterchild. You folks sought to make this a "negoiation" on denying a potus a program he got passed and won two elections over. It adopting your nimrod political position, you've lost the country the opportunity to discuss overall debt/gnp, entitlement reform and actually look at how much we spend on HC. I suppose I should congratulate you on mission accomplished, but as republican, I hope you idiots wake the fcku up and notice you got our asses kicked.

 

[Avatar4321]

The OP is why the gop's postiion is so weak. Your posts are a posterchild. You folks sought to make this a "negoiation" on denying a potus a program he got passed and won two elections over. It adopting your nimrod political position, you've lost the country the opportunity to discuss overall debt/gnp, entitlement reform and actually look at how much we spend on HC. I suppose I should congratulate you on mission accomplished, but as republican, I hope you idiots wake the fcku up and notice you got our asses kicked.

The OP began with lies. You agree with them. I understand that. but they are still lies. And until he can be honest, his post is still going to be complete nonsense.

 

[DaGoose]

Wow. way to start off the thread with a whopper of a lie.

No alternative? There is a real good alternative. It's called The Free Market. It's what has given us the greatest health care system in the world in the First place. It requires that we as individuals be responsible for our own health care. I know this is a radical concept for some people. But it truly is the best system.

See, when you try to outsource your personal responsibility for your own health to others such as the government, you don't end up having the good health you might otherwise have. When you start demanding people give you their services for free, it's not entirely shocking that their desire to give you good care decreases. When you create regulation after regulation, you have doctors and nurses doing more and more to satisfy government requirements than provide care for patients.

But this does actually require you to be responsible. It requires you to be responsible for yourself and for your loved ones. Which is probably why there are so many people who want to turn responsibility over to the government as much as possible. Because we have a culture of people who don't want to be responsible.

Is it really worth it though? Will outsourcing our responsibilities to the government really make our lives easier when we, through neglect, are sick more often? Will it make our lives easier when there is even poorer care for those in need? Is it worth the lives that will be lost for the illusion of security in our health?

Personally, I don't think so. But I can't make your decisions for you.

You're kidding, right?

The ACA utilizes the free market approach as well as ensures personal responsibility with the individual mandate (which was originally a CONSERVATIVE idea for just that reason).

Wow. You guys sure have nothing in common with true conservatism.

.

 

[Nyvin]

The OP is why the gop's postiion is so weak. Your posts are a posterchild. You folks sought to make this a "negoiation" on denying a potus a program he got passed and won two elections over. It adopting your nimrod political position, you've lost the country the opportunity to discuss overall debt/gnp, entitlement reform and actually look at how much we spend on HC. I suppose I should congratulate you on mission accomplished, but as republican, I hope you idiots wake the fcku up and notice you got our asses kicked.

The OP began with lies. You agree with them. I understand that. but they are still lies. And until he can be honest, his post is still going to be complete nonsense.

The majority of it is pretty generic statements which can be at least interpreted as true (if not outright true). Granted there are cold hard facts like Obama in the white house and 54 Dem Senators.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Wow. way to start off the thread with a whopper of a lie.

No alternative? There is a real good alternative. It's called The Free Market. It's what has given us the greatest health care system in the world in the First place. It requires that we as individuals be responsible for our own health care. I know this is a radical concept for some people. But it truly is the best system.

See, when you try to outsource your personal responsibility for your own health to others such as the government, you don't end up having the good health you might otherwise have. When you start demanding people give you their services for free, it's not entirely shocking that their desire to give you good care decreases. When you create regulation after regulation, you have doctors and nurses doing more and more to satisfy government requirements than provide care for patients.

But this does actually require you to be responsible. It requires you to be responsible for yourself and for your loved ones. Which is probably why there are so many people who want to turn responsibility over to the government as much as possible. Because we have a culture of people who don't want to be responsible.

Is it really worth it though? Will outsourcing our responsibilities to the government really make our lives easier when we, through neglect, are sick more often? Will it make our lives easier when there is even poorer care for those in need? Is it worth the lives that will be lost for the illusion of security in our health?

Personally, I don't think so. But I can't make your decisions for you.

You're kidding, right?

The ACA utilizes the free market approach as well as ensures personal responsibility with the individual mandate (which was originally a CONSERVATIVE idea for just that reason).

Wow. You guys sure have nothing in common with true conservatism.

.

Personal responsibility in this case would involve breaking the law, in this case the ACA. I'll gladly pay a fine instead of being held to the fire by a disastrous healthcare law.

 

[bendog]

Avatar simply doesn't want to accept his ideological position lost us the opportunity to up the retirement age and index colas differently. But aside form that, his position is mah-va-less, simply mah-va-less.

 

[rightwinger]

Repuiblican position is weak because they are afraid to take a position

They have disolved to the Party of No....sitting on the sidelines heckling those who are actually trying to accomplish something

 

[DaGoose]

You lost two elections. Get the f over it. Personally I didn't like Obamacare ... but it's fkcing OVER

We live in a representative Republic. Nothing is over. Because what we voted for last year can be repealed this year. What we voted against this year can be passed next year.

You act like laws cannot and do not change. That's precisely the whole point of the legislature.

ACA is bad law. Everyone knows it's bad law. Why the heck should we stand aside and let real people be hurt by those law when we can overturn it?

But to do that you'll need to control all three branches of government.

And that's also what was said about Social Security and Medicare.

Go ahead. Try and repeal those too. But just like ACA.....

IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

 

[TemplarKormac]

The OP is why the gop's postiion is so weak. Your posts are a posterchild. You folks sought to make this a "negoiation" on denying a potus a program he got passed and won two elections over. It adopting your nimrod political position, you've lost the country the opportunity to discuss overall debt/gnp, entitlement reform and actually look at how much we spend on HC. I suppose I should congratulate you on mission accomplished, but as republican, I hope you idiots wake the fcku up and notice you got our asses kicked.

The OP began with lies. You agree with them. I understand that. but they are still lies. And until he can be honest, his post is still going to be complete nonsense.

The majority of it is pretty generic statements which can be at least interpreted as true (if not outright true). Granted there are cold hard facts like Obama in the white house and 54 Dem Senators.

Stop.

I have proven all of your points to be lies. Please, do not take Avatar for a fool, I'm sure he's seen it as well. Other than for Obama being president and there being 54 Democratic Senators in the Senate, you lied through your teeth. Oh and one more thing. Mr. "I refuse to negotiate" just started negotiating with Republicans last night.

I know this must suck for you, but move on. You lost.