Why Was No One Armed & Shooting Back In El Paso WalMart ?

[protectionist]

I saw the mention of coming up behind him. But when he walked in and started shooting, anyone still outside would have decided they would do their shopping at Target.

As far as I know the shooter stayed near the front of the store. So sneaking in would be extremely difficult. Surely he would notice the automatic doors opening.

My replies on this thread have nothing to do with you personally. I don't have a grudge against you. I think you are petty (your threat to have someone arrested for calling you a 'dumbass"), delusional (your desire for the gov't to take over MLB), and only conservative when it suits you (the MLB thing and wanting landlords to be told what they can charge for their properties). But in this thread I have argued against everyone who expects a CCW holder to attack a shooter without knowing the situation fully.

In most Walmarts, the main aisle between the shopping areas and the checkout lines is 20 feet or so. That is a big area to cross. Especially when you stand out by being the only thing moving towards the shooter.

You don't need to be "moving" toward the shooter, in a way that would be obvious to him. You could even be stationary-hidden from him, as he moves closer to you, and then at close range, ambush him, He may never know what hit him. Old Army training/strategy.

You say you don't have grudge, and then right after, show how you do >> "your threat to have someone arrested for calling you a 'dumbass".....

And if you argue against everyone who expects a CCW holder to attack a shooter without knowing the situation fully, that's OK. I agree with that. Nobody should attack a shooter, without having a full grasp of what he's doing. It would take a lot of ascertaining in a short period of time, but it could be done, and save a lot of lives in the process.

 

[WinterBorn]

I saw the mention of coming up behind him. But when he walked in and started shooting, anyone still outside would have decided they would do their shopping at Target.

As far as I know the shooter stayed near the front of the store. So sneaking in would be extremely difficult. Surely he would notice the automatic doors opening.

My replies on this thread have nothing to do with you personally. I don't have a grudge against you. I think you are petty (your threat to have someone arrested for calling you a 'dumbass"), delusional (your desire for the gov't to take over MLB), and only conservative when it suits you (the MLB thing and wanting landlords to be told what they can charge for their properties). But in this thread I have argued against everyone who expects a CCW holder to attack a shooter without knowing the situation fully.

In most Walmarts, the main aisle between the shopping areas and the checkout lines is 20 feet or so. That is a big area to cross. Especially when you stand out by being the only thing moving towards the shooter.

You don't need to move toward the shooter in a way that would be obvious to him. You could even be hidden from him, as he moves closer to you, and then at close range, ambush him, He may never know what hit him. Old Army training/strategy.

You say you don't have grudge, and then right after, show how you do >> "your threat to have someone arrested for calling you a 'dumbass".....

And if you argue against everyone who expects a CCW holder to attack a shooter without knowing the situation fully, that's OK. I agree with that. Nobody should attack a shooter, without having a full grasp of what he's doing. It would take a lot of ascertaining in a short period of time, but it could be done, and save a lot of lives in the process.

I said I don't have a grudge. I didn't say I don't have a good memory. I used that as an example of why I think you are petty.

 

[protectionist]

You are getting paranoid if you think I am responding out of a personal grudge.

I simply know the difference between a hero fantasy and a real life & death situation where you, as a CCW holder, are not aware of the whole situation. You lack the knowledge of the situation, the weapons training or the proper weapons. If I had an AR or my M1A, I would try to stop him. With a .380 pocket pistol the odds are very much in his favor. This shooter was also very different in that he did not plan to go down shooting. Most mass shooters have no intention of leaving alive, which makes them much harder to predict.

I'm not paranoid because I don't see you as a problem to me, in the slightest. Frankly, I don't think much if your posts, which merely seem to try to elevate yourself as being of superior knowledge. (which is less than impressive)

I care nothing whatsoever about being a "hero" (your word/idea, not mine), nor is there any fantasy. You are also mistaken by saying I, or another person, is not aware of the whole situation. I/m talking about a scenario where I, or they, certainly WOULD BE aware of enough of the situation as necessary to take out the shooter, while keeping ourselves safe, or there would not BE ANY ATTACK on him. You're just babbling a lot of negatives.

I've already described how attacks on the shooter could be done, and your claims of me lacking this and that, are simply hyperbolic manifestations of your personal ego hurt. Get a life.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I suppose there is the possibility that those whose citizenship status allowed them to be armed simply chose not to act... due to whatever motive.

Some did act, but in less dramatic ways than having a High Noon confrontation.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Yes, they leave their guns in the car because the left in this country has succeeded in making a large portion of the American population that 'guns are bad.' The left and Democrats bear full responsibility for these mass shootings that could have probably been stopped in a fraction of a second if most people were armed. I feel like we are at war with gun-grabbers who have actually supported these shootings by disarming the American public. Democrats are 100% responsible for putting anger and hate America propaganda into the heads of these mentally ill young men as well.

The Left is responsible for making many haplophobes, but the shooting is entirely the responsibility of the shooter.

 

[protectionist]

Look, How many of the school shooters' purpose was tied to those schools. Stoneman Douglas - an expelled student. Columbine - students. Throws your gun free zone theory out the window. I

In El Paso, he went where he thought he could find the most targets, Walmart. Was it really a gun free zone?

The truth is you search for any excuse not to blame access to powerful weapons & not being radicalized by your fat assed orange buddy.

You have a knack for burying yourself with your own words.

ALL the examples you mentioned were gun-free zones, and if they had not been, there would not have been any attacks there. Recently, they had a big conference after the Parkland massacre, and the panel concluded that arming teachers (goodbye gun-free zone) is the right way to go.

Parkland school shooting panel backs arming teachers, rips responding deputies

The truth is you search for any excuse not to blame gun-free zones, and nothing can eliminate "access to powerful weapons", so to yammer on about that, is akin to complaining about skin cancer, by wishing the sun would go away.

 

[protectionist]

So, your plan is to pass out guns at the door?

Most ccw carriers have little training in gun safety & no training in handling an active shooter situation.

Quit pretending you are all qualified

And who the fuck is stopping you from being armed? Who is stopping you from getting proper training?

FALSE!
ALL CCW licensees in Florida are required to take a training course in order to get their license. Only exceptions are those with law enforcement and/or military training/experience.

And one may not need training. You hide, you point, you shoot. Done deal. You are making too much out of this.

 

[protectionist]

A CCW permit does not imply an obligation to come to the aid of anyone.

The police don't even have a lagal obligation to come to the aid of the citizenry. Why do you want to hold a civilian to a higher standard that you do the police

Nobody said a CCW permit implies an "obligation" to come to the aid of anyone. I don't "hold" anyone to anything. I just see CCW holders as doing what will defend themselves and others, as the reason why they have a CCW license and a gun. Why do YOU think they do ?

 

[protectionist]

If there are more than 1 CCW holders, and they are close enough to mitigate the rifles superiority, they will be close enough to be jacked up on adrenaline and wil likely shoot each other. Being close enough to mitigate the rifle's advantages is close. If you are that close, hearing gunfire, seeing panicked people, and then you see a man with a gun, you will likely react and shoot. If for no other reason than because you assume it is a second shooter.

You're thinking too much. Imagination gone wild, to the point of coming up with gobbledegook.

 

[justinacolmena]

Why Was No One Armed & Shooting Back In El Paso WalMart ?
As someone who has a CCW license, and is armed 99% of the time

I used to have a CCW before the Dems + my family had me adjudicated as a mental defective.

Don't think you can stand there in a public place and “shoot back” if there's a mass shooting event. If you have a CCW permit, they know who you are, they know you have a gun, and you are the prime suspect, public enemy number one to the gun-and-badge city hall thugs who come a-calling with flashing lights and siren, heavy boots and handcuffs at the ready.

If you’ve gotta have their “permission” to carry a gun, in any way, shape or form, they’re not your friends when it comes to a shooting, and they sure as hell don't have your back when it comes to combat.

Whenever a city-slicker cop sees a civilian with a gun, he's trained to shoot first and ask questions later.

I'm not trying to discourage Americans from gun ownership, don't get me wrong, but some people just don't have a clue the battles we face.

 

[Kilroy2]

I can guarantee that nobody says oh I have to leave my gun in the car because I can't go in this store because of the sign

Of course they leave their guns in their car 90% of the time. Are you an idiot? My Gawd!

So if you have a gun you are not worried What the sign says because nobody will be searching you for a gun nor do you have to go thru a metal detector

One doesn't need an X-Ray machine because weapons naturally form an imprint through clothing,

Plus after carrying concealed yourself, you know what to look for and the mall security will have people who can pick out gun carriers as well.

Of course if shit happens and you are involved in a shooting then they may fine you

roflmao, do you h ave any idea what it means to be convicted of a felony trespass?

Apparently you don't.

you have no idea what concealment is about yet you pretend that you do

You probably think that they are concealing rifles

Best Concealed Carry Shirts | Tactical Concealed Carry Clothing

 

[protectionist]

I'm waiting on the investigation. It is said the shooter surrendered without incident, just laid down his gun and gave up. That may not be the act of a coward, but the act of somebody who has something to say or who believes he has enough support from the like-minded to be thought of as a patriot. It is hard to figure how a normally sane person of Christian upbringing can think that killing large groups of people who are no threat to him/her or what they love an be a heroic act.

With his capture, all we have to think about is whose version of the shooter's testimony is valid. I fear it will be like the Mueller Report...gospel to some and jabbering screed to others.

From what I've heard, he was thinking of the immigration situation as an "invasion" of Hispanics. He's right about the invasion part. Regarding "Hispanics" that may be a culturally ethnocentricity thing on his part. There IS way too much immigration, especially illegal, of any ethnicity, and it is being done in a way that is trampling over the rights and welfare of the American people, including Hispanic Americans such as myself.

In any social/political issue we can see very extreme activity on the part of those who are unhinged, but we shouldn't overlook the social unrest that led to the disasters. We shouldn't excuse the killers of innocent people, killing is killing, but the underlying factors shouldn't be excused either.

We have a very extreme condition existing at our southern border, and occasionally it will bring out the worst in those who are lunatic and violent. I hate seeing these kinds of things, but I have to say I'm not surprised by it.

 

[Kilroy2]

I can guarantee that nobody says oh I have to leave my gun in the car because I can't go in this store because of the sign

Of course they leave their guns in their car 90% of the time. Are you an idiot? My Gawd!

So if you have a gun you are not worried What the sign says because nobody will be searching you for a gun nor do you have to go thru a metal detector

One doesn't need an X-Ray machine because weapons naturally form an imprint through clothing,

Plus after carrying concealed yourself, you know what to look for and the mall security will have people who can pick out gun carriers as well.

Of course if shit happens and you are involved in a shooting then they may fine you

roflmao, do you h ave any idea what it means to be convicted of a felony trespass?

Apparently you don't.

Yes, they leave their guns in the car because the left in this country has succeeded in making a large portion of the American population that 'guns are bad.' The left and Democrats bear full responsibility for these mass shootings that could have probably been stopped in a fraction of a second if most people were armed. I feel like we are at war with gun-grabbers who have actually supported these shootings by disarming the American public. Democrats are 100% responsible for putting anger and hate America propaganda into the heads of these mentally ill young men as well.

Seems like you just did a good job of spreading anger and hate with propaganda

to your fellow brothers who will feel embolden by your own support and rhetoric

 

[protectionist]

Americans have shown that they cannot be trusted to own guns. Some people are responsible with guns, but too many are not. Time to change the constitution.

Disarming by law, only disarms the law abiding. Then you are left with the law-abiding being unarmed and defenseless, and the criminal sector (whose gun aquisitioning is outside the legal framework), armed to the teeth.

 

[Leo123]

Seems like you just did a good job of spreading anger and hate with propaganda

to your fellow brothers who will feel embolden by your own support and rhetoric

Seems like you don't care if innocent, law abiding citizens are slaughtered. The propaganda is spreading hate for anyone who has the balls to carry a gun while advocating for disarming the American public. All because you and your ilk are scared of guns.

If you are in a crowded area and a gunman starts brandishing and shooting people around you, are you sanguine with waiting for law enforcement to arrive? Remember even gun grabbers know that with a semi-auto a crazy psychopath gunman can put down a lot of innocent men, women and children in seconds. My contention is that if more people were armed someone or a few on scene could put the fucker down before law enforcement arrives or, at the least, cause the little coward to run.

Kindly stop your blathering about me spreading propaganda. BTW my 'fellow brothers' are law abiding citizens who would even save your prissy ass in such a scenario.

 

[Kilroy2]

I can guarantee that nobody says oh I have to leave my gun in the car because I can't go in this store because of the sign

Of course they leave their guns in their car 90% of the time. Are you an idiot? My Gawd!

So if you have a gun you are not worried What the sign says because nobody will be searching you for a gun nor do you have to go thru a metal detector

One doesn't need an X-Ray machine because weapons naturally form an imprint through clothing,

Plus after carrying concealed yourself, you know what to look for and the mall security will have people who can pick out gun carriers as well.

Of course if shit happens and you are involved in a shooting then they may fine you

roflmao, do you h ave any idea what it means to be convicted of a felony trespass?

Apparently you don't.

Yeah and here is the deal I am not talking about concealed weapons in a federal or state building where yeah they will throw the book at you

I am talking about on private property like Walmart where they will ask you to leave and that if they see you have a gun otherwise they do not CHECK. Ultimately the worst you can be charged with is Trespassing.
If you leave then no problem but if you don't then who know what the law is by state.

 

[Leo123]

Yeah and here is the deal I am not talking about concealed weapons in a federal or state building where yeah they will throw the book at you

I am talking about on private property like Walmart where they will ask you to leave and that if they see you have a gun otherwise they do not CHECK. Ultimately the worst you can be charged with is Trespassing.
If you leave then no problem but if you don't then who know what the law is by state.

I think any private business that demands people turn over their gun before entering should be wide-open for a huge lawsuit in the case where some shit-head with a gun crashes in and starts wounding and killing all the people in the store that, through no choice of their own, have their guns confiscated at the door.

 

[Kilroy2]

Seems like you just did a good job of spreading anger and hate with propaganda

to your fellow brothers who will feel embolden by your own support and rhetoric

Seems like you don't care if innocent, law abiding citizens are slaughtered. The propaganda is spreading hate for anyone who has the balls to carry a gun while advocating for disarming the American public. All because you and your ilk are scared of guns.

If you are in a crowded area and a gunman starts brandishing and shooting people around you, are you sanguine with waiting for law enforcement to arrive? Remember even gun grabbers know that with a semi-auto a crazy psychopath gunman can put down a lot of innocent men, women and children in seconds. My contention is that if more people were armed someone or a few on scene could put the fucker down before law enforcement arrives or, at the least, cause the little coward to run.

Kindly stop your blathering about me spreading propaganda. BTW my 'fellow brothers' are law abiding citizens who would even save your prissy ass in such a scenario.

well I believe it better not to not incite the excitable with rhetoric addressing the issue before it get to the OK corral

 

[Kilroy2]

Yeah and here is the deal I am not talking about concealed weapons in a federal or state building where yeah they will throw the book at you

I am talking about on private property like Walmart where they will ask you to leave and that if they see you have a gun otherwise they do not CHECK. Ultimately the worst you can be charged with is Trespassing.
If you leave then no problem but if you don't then who know what the law is by state.

I think any private business that demands people turn over their gun before entering should be wide-open for a huge lawsuit in the case where some shit-head with a gun crashes in and starts wounding and killing all the people in the store that, through no choice of their own, have their guns confiscated at the door.

They do not turn over their guns they either don't go to that place, leave it in the car, or don't worry about it as I said they do not search people for weapons at walmart or other private properties

 

[Kilroy2]

The issue of leaving guns in the car

More guns are being stolen out of cars in America, particularly in states that have made it easier for people to carry firearms on the road.

There are no reliable national numbers, but an NPR survey of a sampling of police departments reveals steady increases in reports of guns stolen from vehicles.

In Atlanta, the number rose to 1,021 in 2018 from 439 in 2009.

In St. Louis, it increased to 597 from 200 in the same period.

Some of the biggest spikes have come just in the last few years in Tennessee. The number of guns reported stolen from vehicles statewide nearly doubled in one year. In 2016, 2,203 were reported; a year later, reports numbered 4,064, according to figures provided to NPR by the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation.

"The crime overall is not new, but the volume — the amount that we're seeing — is new," says Lt. Blaine Whited of the Metropolitan Nashville Police Department. "It's enough to shock you."