Wind Turbines are NOT Taking Us Back to the Horse-and-Buggy Era

Crick

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May 10, 2014
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Windmills first appeared in Persia between 200 and 500 AD and were used to grind grain and pump water. The first instances operated on vertical axes and were analogous to a water wheel. That is, despite the fact that wind driven vessels had been in use for centuries, these first mills did not use airfoils. In the 11th century, designs more akin to modern windmills began appearing throughout the middle east. Merchants and crusaders brought the windmill back to Europe.

The first instances of wind being used to drive a dynamo to generate electricity took place in the 1880s with demonstration prototype having been assembled by Josef Freidlander, an engineer, in 1883 at the Vienna Electrical Exhibition and a larger unit designed and built by Scottish Engineer James Blyth on his own property and used to power his cottage in 1887. Following their introduction, wind driven generators came to be widely used throughout rural areas to provide electricity to farmers and ranchers (who had been using wind for years to pump water) distant from urban areas then undergoing electrification. But, as power lines eventually reached these isolated farmsteads, the use of windmill generators waned.

The first electric generator was invented by Michael Faraday in 1831. Ten years earlier, Faraday had also invented the first electric motor.

An obvious but, by some posters, frequently overlooked point is that the invention and development of the electrical generator necessarily had to precede the first wind-driven generators.

Another point is that if modern wind turbines are obsolete because man first began utilizing wind power over 2,000 years ago, the same sort of logic would apply to fossil fuel use given that humans began using fire approximately one million years ago. Obviously both these statements are useless.

As any participant of this forum is aware, modern wind turbine generators appeared as a means to produce electrical power without GHG emissions. That wind is not a constant was obviously known but the ability to produce usable amounts of electricity without emissions and with zero fuel costs drove the creation of a new industry. Sites with consistent winds of sufficient velocity were identified and wind turbine farms began to appear. The development of battery technology capable of supporting utility scale operations was an enabling factor and numerous alternative methods of energy storage, eg gravity batteries, pumped hydroelectric, compressed air and flywheel have been developed. Thus the development of modern wind turbine generators makes use of state-of-the-art technologies which have served the world in moving away from fossil fuels. They are in no way obsolete and they are not leading us back to a horse-and-buggy era.

Another related falsehood that we have repeatedly seen on this forum is that the manufacture of wind turbines is the largest industry in the world and that point, in and of itself, is declared harmful. In fact, the manufacture of wind turbines is no where near the largest industrial market. The fossil fuel industry is 100 times its size. Here are the top ten by market value:

1719070096879.png


The manufacture of wind turbines and solar panels do not even appear on the list. The very top, of course, is the fossil fuel industry. Perhaps this is what inspired the projection that some posters have applied to the alternative energy sector.

GOOGLE AI
The global wind turbine market was valued at $60 billion in 2022 and is expected to reach $108.98 billion by 2032, growing at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 6.2% from 2023 to 2032. The small wind turbine market was valued at $3.3 billion in 2023 and is expected to grow at a CAGR of over 13.1% from 2024 to 2032.
 
They're a centuries-old technology, just like the horse and buggy....Whirling dervishes spinning electrical armatures is sooooo 19th century, no matter how high-tech that you try to make them look.

If you hysterical schmucks poured as much loot and effort into zero-point, you might gain a little traction with guys like me.

But nooooooooo!...You numbskulls wouldn't know a trade-off or externality if they clubbed you over your pointy little heads.
 
Windmills first appeared in Persia between 200 and 500 AD and were used to grind grain and pump water. The first instances operated on vertical axes and were analogous to a water wheel. That is, despite the fact that wind driven vessels had been in use for centuries, these first mills did not use airfoils. In the 11th century, designs more akin to modern windmills began appearing throughout the middle east. Merchants and crusaders brought the windmill back to Europe.

The first instances of wind being used to drive a dynamo to generate electricity took place in the 1880s with demonstration prototype having been assembled by Josef Freidlander, an engineer, in 1883 at the Vienna Electrical Exhibition and a larger unit designed and built by Scottish Engineer James Blyth on his own property and used to power his cottage in 1887. Following their introduction, wind driven generators came to be widely used throughout rural areas to provide electricity to farmers and ranchers (who had been using wind for years to pump water) distant from urban areas then undergoing electrification. But, as power lines eventually reached these isolated farmsteads, the use of windmill generators waned.

The first electric generator was invented by Michael Faraday in 1831. Ten years earlier, Faraday had also invented the first electric motor.

An obvious but, by some posters, frequently overlooked point is that the invention and development of the electrical generator necessarily had to precede the first wind-driven generators.

Another point is that if modern wind turbines are obsolete because man first began utilizing wind power over 2,000 years ago, the same sort of logic would apply to fossil fuel use given that humans began using fire approximately one million years ago. Obviously both these statements are useless.

As any participant of this forum is aware, modern wind turbine generators appeared as a means to produce electrical power without GHG emissions. That wind is not a constant was obviously known but the ability to produce usable amounts of electricity without emissions and with zero fuel costs drove the creation of a new industry. Sites with consistent winds of sufficient velocity were identified and wind turbine farms began to appear. The development of battery technology capable of supporting utility scale operations was an enabling factor and numerous alternative methods of energy storage, eg gravity batteries, pumped hydroelectric, compressed air and flywheel have been developed. Thus the development of modern wind turbine generators makes use of state-of-the-art technologies which have served the world in moving away from fossil fuels. They are in no way obsolete and they are not leading us back to a horse-and-buggy era.

Another related falsehood that we have repeatedly seen on this forum is that the manufacture of wind turbines is the largest industry in the world and that point, in and of itself, is declared harmful. In fact, the manufacture of wind turbines is no where near the largest industrial market. The fossil fuel industry is 100 times its size. Here are the top ten by market value:

View attachment 965806

The manufacture of wind turbines and solar panels do not even appear on the list. The very top, of course, is the fossil fuel industry. Perhaps this is what inspired the projection that some posters have applied to the alternative energy sector.

GOOGLE AI
The global wind turbine market was valued at $60 billion in 2022 and is expected to reach $108.98 billion by 2032, growing at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 6.2% from 2023 to 2032. The small wind turbine market was valued at $3.3 billion in 2023 and is expected to grow at a CAGR of over 13.1% from 2024 to 2032.
why don't you put up there the most heavily subsidized companies that go bankrupt
 
Windmills first appeared in Persia between 200 and 500 AD and were used to grind grain and pump water. The first instances operated on vertical axes and were analogous to a water wheel. That is, despite the fact that wind driven vessels had been in use for centuries, these first mills did not use airfoils. In the 11th century, designs more akin to modern windmills began appearing throughout the middle east. Merchants and crusaders brought the windmill back to Europe.

The first instances of wind being used to drive a dynamo to generate electricity took place in the 1880s with demonstration prototype having been assembled by Josef Freidlander, an engineer, in 1883 at the Vienna Electrical Exhibition and a larger unit designed and built by Scottish Engineer James Blyth on his own property and used to power his cottage in 1887. Following their introduction, wind driven generators came to be widely used throughout rural areas to provide electricity to farmers and ranchers (who had been using wind for years to pump water) distant from urban areas then undergoing electrification. But, as power lines eventually reached these isolated farmsteads, the use of windmill generators waned.

The first electric generator was invented by Michael Faraday in 1831. Ten years earlier, Faraday had also invented the first electric motor.

An obvious but, by some posters, frequently overlooked point is that the invention and development of the electrical generator necessarily had to precede the first wind-driven generators.

Another point is that if modern wind turbines are obsolete because man first began utilizing wind power over 2,000 years ago, the same sort of logic would apply to fossil fuel use given that humans began using fire approximately one million years ago. Obviously both these statements are useless.

As any participant of this forum is aware, modern wind turbine generators appeared as a means to produce electrical power without GHG emissions. That wind is not a constant was obviously known but the ability to produce usable amounts of electricity without emissions and with zero fuel costs drove the creation of a new industry. Sites with consistent winds of sufficient velocity were identified and wind turbine farms began to appear. The development of battery technology capable of supporting utility scale operations was an enabling factor and numerous alternative methods of energy storage, eg gravity batteries, pumped hydroelectric, compressed air and flywheel have been developed. Thus the development of modern wind turbine generators makes use of state-of-the-art technologies which have served the world in moving away from fossil fuels. They are in no way obsolete and they are not leading us back to a horse-and-buggy era.

Another related falsehood that we have repeatedly seen on this forum is that the manufacture of wind turbines is the largest industry in the world and that point, in and of itself, is declared harmful. In fact, the manufacture of wind turbines is no where near the largest industrial market. The fossil fuel industry is 100 times its size. Here are the top ten by market value:

View attachment 965806

The manufacture of wind turbines and solar panels do not even appear on the list. The very top, of course, is the fossil fuel industry. Perhaps this is what inspired the projection that some posters have applied to the alternative energy sector.

GOOGLE AI
The global wind turbine market was valued at $60 billion in 2022 and is expected to reach $108.98 billion by 2032, growing at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 6.2% from 2023 to 2032. The small wind turbine market was valued at $3.3 billion in 2023 and is expected to grow at a CAGR of over 13.1% from 2024 to 2032.

Nothing wrong with wind, solar and the rest. Just realize with no fossil fuels there is a +/-90% die off. Our world was artificially built on crude oil.

cargo ships.jpg
 
They're a centuries-old technology, just like the horse and buggy....
Humans began using fire a million years ago. So you must have a really low opinion of technology using such an antiquated process.
Whirling dervishes spinning electrical armatures is sooooo 19th century, no matter how high-tech that you try to make them look.
One of the latest Vestas 15 MW offshore wind turbines is capable of providing power for over 20,000 homes. Do you think that could have been accomplished in the 19th century or with 19th century technological levels?
If you hysterical schmucks poured as much loot and effort into zero-point, you might gain a little traction with guys like me.
I have no idea what you mean by "zero-point".
But nooooooooo!...You numbskulls wouldn't know a trade-off or externality if they clubbed you over your pointy little heads.
By "numbskulls" do you mean me and posters like me, the utilities that are purchasing, installing and using wind turbines or the companies that manufacture them? And to what trade-offs and externalities do you refer?
 
I have no problem using them to supplement the grid, but we can do better in design than fields of 200 ft hideous monstrosities.
That is a subjective opinion. There are other designs but I can't help but suspect that you'd find them all objectionable because it's not their design with which you have a problem.

Besides, can you honestly say that you prefer the appearance of a fossil-fuel powered electrical plant?

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1719072866534.png
 
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Yeah, but what happens if so many birds get killed that they start adapting, like nature sometimes does. The birds start getting bigger and stronger to survive blade strikes and before you know it, the skies are filled with tetradactyl like creatures and we're living in a new age Jurassic Park. People aren't safe anywhere. WTF. Get me outta here.
 
Windmills first appeared in Persia between 200 and 500 AD and were used to grind grain and pump water. The first instances operated on vertical axes and were analogous to a water wheel. That is, despite the fact that wind driven vessels had been in use for centuries, these first mills did not use airfoils. In the 11th century, designs more akin to modern windmills began appearing throughout the middle east. Merchants and crusaders brought the windmill back to Europe.

The first instances of wind being used to drive a dynamo to generate electricity took place in the 1880s with demonstration prototype having been assembled by Josef Freidlander, an engineer, in 1883 at the Vienna Electrical Exhibition and a larger unit designed and built by Scottish Engineer James Blyth on his own property and used to power his cottage in 1887. Following their introduction, wind driven generators came to be widely used throughout rural areas to provide electricity to farmers and ranchers (who had been using wind for years to pump water) distant from urban areas then undergoing electrification. But, as power lines eventually reached these isolated farmsteads, the use of windmill generators waned.

The first electric generator was invented by Michael Faraday in 1831. Ten years earlier, Faraday had also invented the first electric motor.

An obvious but, by some posters, frequently overlooked point is that the invention and development of the electrical generator necessarily had to precede the first wind-driven generators.

Another point is that if modern wind turbines are obsolete because man first began utilizing wind power over 2,000 years ago, the same sort of logic would apply to fossil fuel use given that humans began using fire approximately one million years ago. Obviously both these statements are useless.

As any participant of this forum is aware, modern wind turbine generators appeared as a means to produce electrical power without GHG emissions. That wind is not a constant was obviously known but the ability to produce usable amounts of electricity without emissions and with zero fuel costs drove the creation of a new industry. Sites with consistent winds of sufficient velocity were identified and wind turbine farms began to appear. The development of battery technology capable of supporting utility scale operations was an enabling factor and numerous alternative methods of energy storage, eg gravity batteries, pumped hydroelectric, compressed air and flywheel have been developed. Thus the development of modern wind turbine generators makes use of state-of-the-art technologies which have served the world in moving away from fossil fuels. They are in no way obsolete and they are not leading us back to a horse-and-buggy era.

Another related falsehood that we have repeatedly seen on this forum is that the manufacture of wind turbines is the largest industry in the world and that point, in and of itself, is declared harmful. In fact, the manufacture of wind turbines is no where near the largest industrial market. The fossil fuel industry is 100 times its size. Here are the top ten by market value:

View attachment 965806

The manufacture of wind turbines and solar panels do not even appear on the list. The very top, of course, is the fossil fuel industry. Perhaps this is what inspired the projection that some posters have applied to the alternative energy sector.

GOOGLE AI
The global wind turbine market was valued at $60 billion in 2022 and is expected to reach $108.98 billion by 2032, growing at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 6.2% from 2023 to 2032. The small wind turbine market was valued at $3.3 billion in 2023 and is expected to grow at a CAGR of over 13.1% from 2024 to 2032.
Sustainable energy is a growing market that will ensure a lot of jobs for a lot of people.
 
Interesting article on how wind turbines in Denmark power up to 600,000 homes, but also how these offshore wind turbines are providing a side benefit when it comes to aquatic farming.

A win, win.

 
I saw a segment on Reuters (I think) the other day about the wind farming project in Wyoming.
I also watched a segment about the Terra nuclear energy project. It's all long overdue.


 
Humans began using fire a million years ago. So you must have a really low opinion of technology using such an antiquated process.
Irrelevancy is irrelevant.
One of the latest Vestas 15 MW offshore wind turbines is capable of providing power for over 20,000 homes. Do you think that could have been accomplished in the 19th century or with 19th century technological levels?
Intermittently...Big fat hairy deal.
I have no idea what you mean by "zero-point".
Of course you don't, because you're a fucking buffoon trapped in 19th century thinking.
By "numbskulls" do you mean me and posters like me, the utilities that are purchasing, installing and using wind turbines or the companies that manufacture them? And to what trade-offs and externalities do you refer?
By "numbkulls" I mean numbskulls like you, who don't understand basic macroecon 101 at all, let alone well enough to understand what those basic terms mean and how they're applicable.
 
Irrelevancy is irrelevant.
Than its just as irrelevant when elektra and others attempts to use them.
Intermittently...Big fat hairy deal.
Offshore wind turbines have very high capacity factors and the technology exists to deal effectively with that intermittency without bringing new fossil plants online.
Of course you don't, because you're a fucking buffoon trapped in 19th century thinking.
Is there something preventing you from explaining what you meant by "zero-point"? Is it perhaps because what you really meant to say was "net-zero"?
By "numbkulls" I mean numbskulls like you, who don't understand basic macroecon 101 at all, let alone well enough to understand what those basic terms mean and how they're applicable.
I do understand what those terms mean. But if you don't really want to discuss your thoughts on these issues, why are you bothering to post here?
 

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