Woman prays to Jesus during a Bear Attack

[MrMax]

Why didn't Jesus just stop the bear from attacking in the first place?

 

[PostmodernProph]

I doubt that, since such a story only convinces me even more that there is no consistency in what the christian belief does for each believer.

Think about it, If the main goal of believing is salvation and there already believers here to carry out the works of Christ, why keep these devout faithful ones (that is, the woman and Jeremiah) here? Their efforts and stories has not convinced me. Instead, their stories has caused me to doubt the validity of Christianity even more.

I've had children.....you can put the strained peas in the spoon, you can put the spoon in their mouths....but you can't make them eat it.....

as for what impact her survival has had, well.....a half dozen strangers, from all over the country, have just spent several days talking about it on this board.....I would consider that an impact.......

In other words, the assumption that it was for me was correct despite the fact that I am not eating the peas? Maybe the truth could be(note, this is also an assumption) that they are not saved. There is more work for them to do. In other words, they are not able to reach heaven so Jesus gave them more time?

The above assumption would make more sense since the most seriously devout believers still die.

If the case was to convince the non-believers of the validity of Christianity, wouldn't keeping the most devout believers alive and in the prime of their lives be a bit non-refutable evidence. Remember, you posited the idea that believers are spared to continue their work. I am just adding the idea that the believers to do this already died.

I've frequently said the way to ensure a long life is make yourself useful to God......

 

[Coloradomtnman]

I find it interesting that your take on this is that God probably didn't want to kill these little children but because vain old Elisha ordered him to God didn't have any choice in the matter......do realize that if God actually worked this way half the people who post here would be dead already?......

That wasn't my take on the story. I was suggesting that the God described in the Bible, by Iron Age, nomadic desert religious zealots, thought that ol' Elisha was justified in cursing the 42 kids (teens, men, whoever) with death by bear-mauling because Elisha was sensitive about his male-pattern baldness and so He sent two bears to do just that - is not the loving, merciful, just, forgiving God you and your brethren make Him out to be.

How do reconcile this idea of a loving God who embodies mercy and justice with the cruel, capricious God described in the Bible who has people mass murdered by bears for teasing someone about their lack of hair?

my take on it was that he knew the boys were actually at their peak of goodness and decided to get rid of them before things got even worse.....

What seems more likely:

A. 42 boys teased Elisha about his baldness, so he cursed them. God saw that Elisha cursed them and at the same time, coincidentally, also saw the all 42 boys were at the height of their goodness and all would from that moment begin an inevitable, unchangeable descent into wickedness. So God sent 2 bears to maul all 42 boys to death instead of attempting to have a positive influence on them by intervening in their lives in someway so that they could live their lives in His glory as a being who is supposedly the embodiment of kindness, love, mercy, justice, and forgiveness would presumably do. But instead this God decided terrible deaths were better for all 42 boys. And we shouldn't question that despite the moral outrage we feel when hearing that 42 young people were slaughtered horribly by bears on purpose.

Or

B. The priests of a tribe of iron age desert shepherds told a story to warn their fellow tribesman not to disrespect them or face the consequences of a vengeful God angered. Then this story passed down in oral tradition was eventually written into a holy book.

Occum's Razor?

 

[amrchaos]

I've had children.....you can put the strained peas in the spoon, you can put the spoon in their mouths....but you can't make them eat it.....

as for what impact her survival has had, well.....a half dozen strangers, from all over the country, have just spent several days talking about it on this board.....I would consider that an impact.......

In other words, the assumption that it was for me was correct despite the fact that I am not eating the peas? Maybe the truth could be(note, this is also an assumption) that they are not saved. There is more work for them to do. In other words, they are not able to reach heaven so Jesus gave them more time?

The above assumption would make more sense since the most seriously devout believers still die.

If the case was to convince the non-believers of the validity of Christianity, wouldn't keeping the most devout believers alive and in the prime of their lives be a bit non-refutable evidence. Remember, you posited the idea that believers are spared to continue their work. I am just adding the idea that the believers to do this already died.

I've frequently said the way to ensure a long life is make yourself useful to God......

But is that assured for all believers? Or is it just an opinion that you hold?

 

[thebrucebeat]

King David was referred to as a boy, a lad, at age 25 - which is when he was anointed to be King.

Thus Jesse made seven of his sons pass before Samuel. But Samuel said to Jesse, “The LORD has not chosen these.” And Samuel said to Jesse, “Are these all the children?” And he said, “There remains yet the youngest, and behold, he is tending the sheep.” Then Samuel said to Jesse, “Send and bring him; for we will not sit down until he comes here.” So he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, with beautiful eyes and a handsome appearance. And the LORD said, “Arise, anoint him; for this is he.” Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon David from that day forward. And Samuel arose and went to Ramah. 1 Sam 16:10-13 (NAS95S)


You will note that King David's older brothers ( men in their thirties and older ) were referred to as "Children" by Samuel the prophet when he came there to anoint the person God had chosen.

You will also refer back to the story of Abraham and Isaac and note that he is referred to as a child... scholars believe he was in his twenties. He carried his own firewood.

See Genesis 22: 2

- Jeremiah

The only place I am seeing their ages is your say so.
Not overly compelling.

If you had studied the Scriptures it would be, Bruce. I see the evidence throughout both Torah and New Testament..

Bruce, you have a bad habit of misquoting others. I didn't state their individual ages. For the second time here... I said, between ages of 17 and 35 yrs of age... which proves they were not "children" as suggested earlier.... make a note of that one please.

The only place I am seeing their ages is your say so.
Not overly compelling.

If you had studied the Scriptures it would be, Bruce. I see the evidence throughout both Torah and New Testament..

Bruce, you have a bad habit of misquoting others. I didn't state their individual ages. For the second time here... I said, between ages of 17 and 35 yrs of age... which proves they were not "children" as suggested earlier.... make a note of that one please.

What is your favorite, most trusted translation?

I guess...
D) None of the above

 

[Steven_R]

The only place I am seeing their ages is your say so.
Not overly compelling.

If you had studied the Scriptures it would be, Bruce. I see the evidence throughout both Torah and New Testament..

Bruce, you have a bad habit of misquoting others. I didn't state their individual ages. For the second time here... I said, between ages of 17 and 35 yrs of age... which proves they were not "children" as suggested earlier.... make a note of that one please.

If you had studied the Scriptures it would be, Bruce. I see the evidence throughout both Torah and New Testament..

Bruce, you have a bad habit of misquoting others. I didn't state their individual ages. For the second time here... I said, between ages of 17 and 35 yrs of age... which proves they were not "children" as suggested earlier.... make a note of that one please.

What is your favorite, most trusted translation?

I guess...
D) None of the above

Words really have no meaning and can mean whatever the reader needs those words to mean...

...but the Bible is the inherent, ineffable, and infallible Word of God.

 

[MrMax]

I've had children.....you can put the strained peas in the spoon, you can put the spoon in their mouths....but you can't make them eat it.....

as for what impact her survival has had, well.....a half dozen strangers, from all over the country, have just spent several days talking about it on this board.....I would consider that an impact.......

In other words, the assumption that it was for me was correct despite the fact that I am not eating the peas? Maybe the truth could be(note, this is also an assumption) that they are not saved. There is more work for them to do. In other words, they are not able to reach heaven so Jesus gave them more time?

The above assumption would make more sense since the most seriously devout believers still die.

If the case was to convince the non-believers of the validity of Christianity, wouldn't keeping the most devout believers alive and in the prime of their lives be a bit non-refutable evidence. Remember, you posited the idea that believers are spared to continue their work. I am just adding the idea that the believers to do this already died.

I've frequently said the way to ensure a long life is make yourself useful to God......

So kids who die young weren't useful to your god?

 

[PostmodernProph]

That wasn't my take on the story. I was suggesting that the God described in the Bible, by Iron Age, nomadic desert religious zealots, thought that ol' Elisha was justified in cursing the 42 kids (teens, men, whoever) with death by bear-mauling because Elisha was sensitive about his male-pattern baldness and so He sent two bears to do just that - is not the loving, merciful, just, forgiving God you and your brethren make Him out to be.

How do reconcile this idea of a loving God who embodies mercy and justice with the cruel, capricious God described in the Bible who has people mass murdered by bears for teasing someone about their lack of hair?

my take on it was that he knew the boys were actually at their peak of goodness and decided to get rid of them before things got even worse.....

What seems more likely:

A. 42 boys teased Elisha about his baldness, so he cursed them. God saw that Elisha cursed them and at the same time, coincidentally, also saw the all 42 boys were at the height of their goodness and all would from that moment begin an inevitable, unchangeable descent into wickedness. So God sent 2 bears to maul all 42 boys to death instead of attempting to have a positive influence on them by intervening in their lives in someway so that they could live their lives in His glory as a being who is supposedly the embodiment of kindness, love, mercy, justice, and forgiveness would presumably do. But instead this God decided terrible deaths were better for all 42 boys. And we shouldn't question that despite the moral outrage we feel when hearing that 42 young people were slaughtered horribly by bears on purpose.

Or

B. The priests of a tribe of iron age desert shepherds told a story to warn their fellow tribesman not to disrespect them or face the consequences of a vengeful God angered. Then this story passed down in oral tradition was eventually written into a holy book.

Occum's Razor?

wait, did you forget 3) it was inserted into the Bible so atheists would have an opportunity to complain that God is a coldblooded murderer and not worthy of their faith?......

if we're actually going with Occam's Razor, I opt for a random number of teenage boys in hoodies were on a rampage hassling tourists and God decided to double tap them with bears.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

In other words, the assumption that it was for me was correct despite the fact that I am not eating the peas? Maybe the truth could be(note, this is also an assumption) that they are not saved. There is more work for them to do. In other words, they are not able to reach heaven so Jesus gave them more time?

The above assumption would make more sense since the most seriously devout believers still die.

If the case was to convince the non-believers of the validity of Christianity, wouldn't keeping the most devout believers alive and in the prime of their lives be a bit non-refutable evidence. Remember, you posited the idea that believers are spared to continue their work. I am just adding the idea that the believers to do this already died.

I've frequently said the way to ensure a long life is make yourself useful to God......

But is that assured for all believers? Or is it just an opinion that you hold?

oh gosh....was I supposed to promise somebody something?.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

In other words, the assumption that it was for me was correct despite the fact that I am not eating the peas? Maybe the truth could be(note, this is also an assumption) that they are not saved. There is more work for them to do. In other words, they are not able to reach heaven so Jesus gave them more time?

The above assumption would make more sense since the most seriously devout believers still die.

If the case was to convince the non-believers of the validity of Christianity, wouldn't keeping the most devout believers alive and in the prime of their lives be a bit non-refutable evidence. Remember, you posited the idea that believers are spared to continue their work. I am just adding the idea that the believers to do this already died.

I've frequently said the way to ensure a long life is make yourself useful to God......

So kids who die young weren't useful to your god?

a cynical way of saying they've fulfilled their purpose?.....

 

[rightwinger]

Does anyone know if the bear prayed?

 

[Papageorgio]

Does anyone know if the bear prayed?

See post 50.


Sent from my iPad using an Android.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

my take on it was that he knew the boys were actually at their peak of goodness and decided to get rid of them before things got even worse.....

What seems more likely:

A. 42 boys teased Elisha about his baldness, so he cursed them. God saw that Elisha cursed them and at the same time, coincidentally, also saw the all 42 boys were at the height of their goodness and all would from that moment begin an inevitable, unchangeable descent into wickedness. So God sent 2 bears to maul all 42 boys to death instead of attempting to have a positive influence on them by intervening in their lives in someway so that they could live their lives in His glory as a being who is supposedly the embodiment of kindness, love, mercy, justice, and forgiveness would presumably do. But instead this God decided terrible deaths were better for all 42 boys. And we shouldn't question that despite the moral outrage we feel when hearing that 42 young people were slaughtered horribly by bears on purpose.

Or

B. The priests of a tribe of iron age desert shepherds told a story to warn their fellow tribesman not to disrespect them or face the consequences of a vengeful God angered. Then this story passed down in oral tradition was eventually written into a holy book.

Occum's Razor?

wait, did you forget 3) it was inserted into the Bible so atheists would have an opportunity to complain that God is a coldblooded murderer and not worthy of their faith?......

if we're actually going with Occam's Razor, I opt for a random number of teenage boys in hoodies were on a rampage hassling tourists and God decided to double tap them with bears.....

So, a "random number of teenage boys in hoodies were on a rampage hassling tourists and God decided to double tap them with bears" seems more likely than the priests of a tribe of iron age desert shepherds told a story to warn their fellow tribesman not to disrespect them or face the consequences of a vengeful God angered. Then this story passed down in oral tradition was eventually written into a holy book?

In Christian doctrine, is hassling tourists a crime punishable by death by bear? For such a grievous offense, are minors to be treated as adults?

I caught the racial reference you slipped into your response. Is there some lesser punishment if, when hassling tourists, you aren't wearing a hoodie?

And, yes, such a God described above is not worthy of my faith and certainly not of worship.

 

[PostmodernProph]

In Christian doctrine, is hassling tourists a crime punishable by death by bear?

wrong question.....try "in God's opinion, was what they were doing punishable by death".....the facts?.....God punished them by death for what they were doing......the inference?......yes, unless you feel God's opinion is irrelevant....

 

[PostmodernProph]

I caught the racial reference you slipped into your response.

do white hoodlums wear something different?.....any racial reference you perceive is self imposed....

And, yes, such a God described above is not worthy of my faith and certainly not of worship.

I've already commented on my amusement about people who consider themselves more moral than God....

 

[Steven_R]

In Christian doctrine, is hassling tourists a crime punishable by death by bear?

wrong question.....try "in God's opinion, was what they were doing punishable by death".....the facts?.....God punished them by death for what they were doing......the inference?......yes, unless you feel God's opinion is irrelevant....

What doesn't merit death in God's eyes? I don't know if you've ever read the Bible, I mean really read it, but God kills with the slightest provocation. Sometimes with no provocation at all.

 

[thebrucebeat]

In Christian doctrine, is hassling tourists a crime punishable by death by bear?

wrong question.....try "in God's opinion, was what they were doing punishable by death".....the facts?.....God punished them by death for what they were doing......the inference?......yes, unless you feel God's opinion is irrelevant....

Not the question raised at all, for me.
I don't start with the supposition that the bible is accurate or a faithful depiction of whatever god might really be.
The question is why would people believe in an ancient document that would suggest it was an example of their god's righteousness to have him slaughter a group of rude children?
You have made the decision that their is no horror great enough to condemn your god, because you don't even question the premise. You have officially moved beyond any interest in reason. Intentionally.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

In Christian doctrine, is hassling tourists a crime punishable by death by bear?

wrong question.....try "in God's opinion, was what they were doing punishable by death".....the facts?.....God punished them by death for what they were doing......the inference?......yes, unless you feel God's opinion is irrelevant....

You seem to think that morality is different for God than it is for evryone else.

If a group of children were teasing my buddy about his baldness, and I could see into the future and see that all the kids were going to turn to a life of crime, and although I could intervene and try to have a positive influence on the kids' lives so that they might have the chance at a good life with familes and children and contributing to a better world but instead I sicced my bears on them - I would be one of the most reviled people on the planet.

But for you, simply because God did it, it somehow is an act of love, mercy, forgiveness and was just.

Then you threaten nonbelievers like me that I have to accept this God as my savior or burn in Hell and wonder why I remain unconvinced.

 

[PostmodernProph]

In Christian doctrine, is hassling tourists a crime punishable by death by bear?

wrong question.....try "in God's opinion, was what they were doing punishable by death".....the facts?.....God punished them by death for what they were doing......the inference?......yes, unless you feel God's opinion is irrelevant....

What doesn't merit death in God's eyes? I don't know if you've ever read the Bible, I mean really read it, but God kills with the slightest provocation. Sometimes with no provocation at all.

???...if you think so I believe I've read it more closely than you have...granted he killed people for things like human sacrifice, and killing his prophets and other sundry disobediences......but if you total up all the pages in which such are found I expect its less than 1% of the pages in the Bible.....

 

[MrMax]

So why did god sick the bear on the woman in the first place?