YES, America CERTAINLY WAS FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN NATION...

[logical4u]

Darwinian thought seizes Harvard Law and the Blackstone is booted out. In 1869, Eliot becomes president of Harvard.

Charles William Eliot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Eliot appoints Langdell, who doesn't believe in a ridgid law based on Christianity, as taught in the Blackstone, but as a Darwin disciple, believes the law is evolving. Moral relativism at Harvard is born and Christo is dropped from the Motto, with only Veritas remaining.

Christopher Columbus Langdell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And so begins the demise of our Christian Nation as it was founded.

Thomas Paine

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." (Richard Emery Roberts, ed. "Excerpts from The Age of Reason". Selected Writings of Thomas Paine.

Regarding State Meddling with Church

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of all government, to protect all conscientious professors thereof, and I know of no other business which government hath to do therewith. . . ." ---Thomas Paine, "Common Sense", 1776

Regarding Church Meddling with State

"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all law-religions, or religions established by law." --Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man, 1791

"Soon after I had published the pamphlet COMMON SENSE, in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion. The adulterous connection of church and state, wherever it had taken place, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, had so effectually prohibited, by pains and penalties, every discussion upon established creeds, and upon first principles of religion, that until the system of government should be changed, those subjects could not be brought fairly and openly before the world; but that whenever this should be done, a revolution in the system of religion would follow. Human inventions and priest-craft would be detected; and man would return to the pure, unmixed, and unadulterated belief of one God, and no more." --Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

"EVERY national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet; as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

"Each of those churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the Word of God. The Jews say that their Word of God was given by God to Moses face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all." --Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

"The Church was resolved to have a New Testament, and as, after the lapse of more than three hundred years, no handwriting could be proved or disproved, the Church, which like former impostors had then gotten possession of the State, had everything its own way. It invented creeds, such as that called the Apostle's Creed, the Nicean Creed, the Athanasian Creed, and out of the loads of rubbish that were presented it voted four to be Gospels, and others to be Epistles, as we now find them arranged." --Thomas Paine

But Hey, Don't Hold Back.

"The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system."--Thomas Paine, 2000 Years of Disbelief

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, not by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church." --Thomas Paine, Excerpts from The Age of Reason: Selected Writings of Thomas Paine, edited by Richard Emery Robers, NY Everybody's Vacation Publishing Co, 1945, p.342

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." --Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"People in general do not know what wickedness there is in this pretended word of God. Brought up in habits of superstition, they take it for granted that the Bible is true, and that it is good; they permit themselves not to doubt of it, and they carry the ideas they form of the benevolence of the Almighty to the book which they have been taught to believe was written by his authority. Good heavens! it is quite another thing; it is a book of lies, wickedness, and blasphemy; for what can be greater blasphemy than to ascribe the wickedness of man to the orders of the Almighty?" ---Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"There is scarcely any part of science, or anything in nature, which those imposters and blasphemers of science, called priests, as well Christians as Jews, have not, at some time or other, perverted, or sought to pervert to the purpose of superstition and falsehood." -- Thomas Paine

"Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the Holy Bible! this is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!" -- Thomas Paine

Sources

http://www.thomaspaine.org/Archives/AOR1.html http://www.atheism.org/~godlessheathen/Founders.html Thomas Paine - Wikiquote http://www.thomaspaine.org/contents.html http://paganinfo.50g.com/quotes.htm

... "Even the distance at which the Almighty hath placed England and America is a strong and natural proof that the authority of the one over the other, was never the design of Heaven. The time likewise at which the Continent was discovered, adds weight to the argument, and the manner in which it was peopled, encreases the force of it. The Reformation was preceded by the discovery of America: As if the Almighty graciously meant to open a sanctuary to the persecuted in future years, when home should afford neither friendship nor safety."....

.... "The conferring members being met, let their business be to frame a CONTINENTAL CHARTER, or Charter of the United Colonies; (answering to what is called the Magna Charta of England) fixing the number and manner of choosing members of Congress, members of Assembly, with their date of sitting, and drawing the line of business and jurisdiction between them: (Always remembering, that our strength is continental, not provincial Securing freedom and property to all men, and above all things, the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; with such other matter as is necessary for a charter to contain. Immediately after which, the said Conference to dissolve, and the bodies which shall be chosen comformable to the said charter, to be the legislators and governors of this continent for the time being: Whose peace and happiness, may God preserve, Amen."....

Thoughts on the Present State of American Affairs

Doesn't sound like he was an atheist to me....

 

[logical4u]

Even though Jews and Christians and Muslims are all children of Abraham, the Bible is not our law.

So do not kill and do not bear false witness are not part of our tradition?

Are you saying that "do not kill" and "do not bear false witness" can only be found with a christian source?

Only in Christianity is it applied "equally" (BTW, it is murder, not kill). Other religions have different rules for different "classes" or different religions. Just sayin'

 

[logical4u]

And the Hindu and the Buddhist and the atheist and the agnostic.

Go study the frieze on the building of SCOTUS and till us who the luminaries, along with Moses, are illustrated there.

You don't get the difference between religious influence and organized religion.

That is why church and state have been separated from the beginning of our country nationally and in the states since the 1830s.

The so-called "christian" dominion movement is satanic, not authentically Christian.

Even though Jews and Christians and Muslims are all children of Abraham, the Bible is not our law.

So do not kill and do not bear false witness are not part of our tradition?

Jakey, please list the Hindus and Buddahists that signed the Constitution (since you are declaring their influence).

 

[Crackerjack]

This is a fact not disputed by any attorney or historian.

Oh, how do I love this thread!

 

[logical4u]

UR is a silly tough boy who got carried away with a uniform and a badge, and as a civilian has trouble with the idea that he is not the enforcer of the law or even as much as the law.

I had to deal with that with a field MP unit. Some of the guys were acting stupid. A sit down with their company commander brought some sanity to the situation.

We interchanged a squad of our guys with two sections of theirs the next time we went to the field. All three groups came back saying the other guys had a "terrible" job and were happy being MPs or infantry men.

I will await your PM internet tough guy.

Your comment about the baton reminds me of a line from the movie The Untouchables, something about bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Interesting.

This is getting old, take yourself out into the parking lot and have an ol' fashioned pissing contest. Whosever piss rolls further wins.... Please get back on topic or go to your room.

 

[Crackerjack]

The signatures were not affixed to the attestation (notarization) of Anno Domini. The attestation was affixed to the document.

No legal scholar considers that the attestation according to law meant the signers were affixing their belief in Jesus Christ.

Grow up.

The "context" (mambie, pambie) used in the Constitution was "OUR" "LORD". That is not some impersonal diety in a galaxy far, far away. A possesive pronoun was used for a purpose. Those signing the Constitutions acknowledged by their signatures that "LORD" was indeed "their" personal "LORD". Now feel free to go off on another tangent about them being cult members or Satanic followers because the word "LORD" did not have a definition written behind it for the willfully ignorant. But, please provide some evidence for your "braying".

"IF" those signing the Constitution disagreed with that (if they were all truly deists and atheists) why would they have not had that word changed to "the" or "a"?

When you sign a "contract", are you signing your agreement for "everything" that is written there?

I was asked to provide a single reference to God in the Constitution. I did that. Now the braying starts.

Signing a contract that says "Anno Domini" does not mean that you automatically vouch for the existence of Jesus Christ.

Seriously ...

 

[logical4u]

Madison and Jefferson disagree with you, logical4u.

The constitution disagrees with you, logical4u.

SCOTUS disagrees with you, logical4u.

This is over.

That's so silly. In your haste to insert your gods into the constitution, you have mistaken a closing salutation for some relevance to constitutional law.

The bottom line is very common sense related: the FF's knew that religions tend to propogate and that religions tend to be negatively disposed toward those not of that particular religion.

We don't have to guess at their intent in forming a thoroughly secular constitution, we only have to see what they wrote. The writers expressly and intentionally left out any mention of Lord, Jehovah, Gawds, Yahweh, etc., as some of the gods extant at the time.

The contention of the U.S. as a "christian nation" was specifically rejected by the framers of the constitution. Your hope to create the U.S. as a totalitarian fear society of christian fundies is expressly not what the framers of the Constitution intended. As much as you and other fundies would like to strip away fundamental rights guaranteed by the Constitution, our Supreme Court, in upholding the constitution, has wisely overridden you.

I did not seek to insert the Lord into the Constitution. A person said that there was not a "single" reference to God in the Constitution. I proved them wrong.

Now the willfully ignorant want to pretend that our calendar is not based on the greatest event in human history: the birth of our Savior. They deceive themselves into bearing false witness against the FF by implying that was the only calendar system used at that time. This is a falsehood. If this country had been founded by Arabs, the calendar would be different. If this country had been founded by atheist, they could have declared themselves the "creators" of the country and started a brand new calendar. Even as a child, I was taught the importance of "AD" and "BC", in reference to the Lord. I cannot imagine how Biblically literate the FF were without the distractions of the electronic age. You are displaying your falseness to any that read this thread.

Sorry, you, should not mention "common sense". The FF wanted no organized Christian DENOMINATION to be promoted by the gov't. The people that signed the Constitution and made up the newly formed gov't were very much practicing Christians. Those people came together and decided that there would be no gov't order that the people of this nation (varying Christian denominations) would be forced to follow a particular Christian DENOMINATION. They knew with the first Amendment that all the Christians could practice their "denominations". There were many that did not attend church on a regular basis due to geography and the location of their homes at a good distance from population centers. Walking miles and miles for Sunday services was not convenient. There are very, very few documented cases of atheists settlers, if any.

If a country is made of practicing Christians, it is, by default a Christian nation. Because the freedom offered by Christianity is a welcome refuge to other religions does not change that fact.

If Buddahism or Hinduism had such a strong "influence", then why don't we have "caste" systems? Why is the underlying belief that every individual is unique and special in their own way (something that is not promoted in: Hinduism, Buddahism, or islam)? Why do we teach that "everyone" is equal under the law (that justice is blind)? Again, something that is not promoted in the other big 3 religions.

Still waiting for that list of FF that were Hindu, Buddahist, or some other religion beside Christian, Jakey. And please provide some documentation.

 

[Crackerjack]

I'm waiting to hear how atheists and deists are supposed to measure years without the approximate birth of Christ as a frame of reference.

well, i'm neither a deist nor an atheist, but we measure it by the "common era". does it really matter for purposes of whether or not the US was ever intended to be religious in nature?

Only if you want to differentiate if "our" rights are granted by a greater than man force (the Creator), or if you want to elevate gov't to the grantor of basic rights (those listed in the Bill of Rights).

BTW, in countries that have given the gov't the power to grant rights, human rights aren't doing so well.

It is okay, you can admit that you like riding the prosperity of Christians, but want to be free to revel in corruption whenever you want to, and how you please.

One can recognize a Creator that is not necessarily the Judeo-Christian god. Freemasons do it at every single meeting.

 

[logical4u]

well, i'm neither a deist nor an atheist, but we measure it by the "common era". does it really matter for purposes of whether or not the US was ever intended to be religious in nature?

Only if you want to differentiate if "our" rights are granted by a greater than man force (the Creator), or if you want to elevate gov't to the grantor of basic rights (those listed in the Bill of Rights).

BTW, in countries that have given the gov't the power to grant rights, human rights aren't doing so well.

It is okay, you can admit that you like riding the prosperity of Christians, but want to be free to revel in corruption whenever you want to, and how you please.

We are born with our natural rights. No one gives them to us...they just are.

But tyrant governments can take them away, unfortunately.

That is some belief system you have: it is that way because it is, nothing made it that way.....

Are you blonde?

 

[Crackerjack]

UR was a police officer. Heavens help the citizens.

Yep, decorated too, without a single blemish on my perfect record. Any more Ad Hominem attacks you would like to bring while you are at it?

Congratulations on not getting caught.

 

[Hollie]

Our Supreme Court said that we are a Christian Nation in 1892.

If we pass beyond these matters to a view of American life, as expressed by its laws, its business, its customs, and its society, we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth. Among other matters note the following: The form of oath universally prevailing, concluding with an appeal to the Almighty; the custom of opening sessions of all deliberative bodies and most conventions with prayer; the prefatory words of all wills, "In the name of God, amen;" the laws respecting the observance of the Sabbath, with the general cessation of all secular business, and the closing of courts, legislatures, and other similar public assemblies on that day; the churches and church organizations which abound in every city, town, and hamlet; the multitude of charitable organizations existing everywhere under Christian auspices; the gigantic missionary associations, with general support, and aiming to establish Christian missions in every quarter of the globe. These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.

I'm afraid you're not reading what you posted.

"... add a volume of unofficial declaration..."


Judges do not make law, they interpret law. The FF's established a separate branch of government for law making. You should have learned that in a civics class.

The constitution has established that the U.S. is a secular nation with no religious preference.

Hollie, guess you missed the part pointing out the difference between government and nation. Please keep the lying and fraud to a minimum.

I didn't miss it. You're having difficulty separating fantasy from reality.

I hadn't thought your intellectual sloth left you so debilitated... but it did.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net


To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.




This is where the phrase came from that they claim is not written into the constitution.


They fail ot understand why its used because they hate education

Jefferson is doing flip flops in his grave but hey, according to rw's, he didn't actually DO anything so let's just take him out of kid's history books.

 

[Hollie]

Madison and Jefferson disagree with you, logical4u.

The constitution disagrees with you, logical4u.

SCOTUS disagrees with you, logical4u.

This is over.

I did not seek to insert the Lord into the Constitution. A person said that there was not a "single" reference to God in the Constitution. I proved them wrong.

Now the willfully ignorant want to pretend that our calendar is not based on the greatest event in human history: the birth of our Savior. They deceive themselves into bearing false witness against the FF by implying that was the only calendar system used at that time. This is a falsehood. If this country had been founded by Arabs, the calendar would be different. If this country had been founded by atheist, they could have declared themselves the "creators" of the country and started a brand new calendar. Even as a child, I was taught the importance of "AD" and "BC", in reference to the Lord. I cannot imagine how Biblically literate the FF were without the distractions of the electronic age. You are displaying your falseness to any that read this thread.

Sorry, you, should not mention "common sense". The FF wanted no organized Christian DENOMINATION to be promoted by the gov't. The people that signed the Constitution and made up the newly formed gov't were very much practicing Christians. Those people came together and decided that there would be no gov't order that the people of this nation (varying Christian denominations) would be forced to follow a particular Christian DENOMINATION. They knew with the first Amendment that all the Christians could practice their "denominations". There were many that did not attend church on a regular basis due to geography and the location of their homes at a good distance from population centers. Walking miles and miles for Sunday services was not convenient. There are very, very few documented cases of atheists settlers, if any.

If a country is made of practicing Christians, it is, by default a Christian nation. Because the freedom offered by Christianity is a welcome refuge to other religions does not change that fact.

If Buddahism or Hinduism had such a strong "influence", then why don't we have "caste" systems? Why is the underlying belief that every individual is unique and special in their own way (something that is not promoted in: Hinduism, Buddahism, or islam)? Why do we teach that "everyone" is equal under the law (that justice is blind)? Again, something that is not promoted in the other big 3 religions.

Still waiting for that list of FF that were Hindu, Buddahist, or some other religion beside Christian, Jakey. And please provide some documentation.

There were Deists and Atheists among the FF's. Deism and Atheism are generally considered to be non-Christian.

Why do you think that gods fearing Christians would endorse a secular constitution?

 

[logical4u]

well, i'm neither a deist nor an atheist, but we measure it by the "common era". does it really matter for purposes of whether or not the US was ever intended to be religious in nature?

Only if you want to differentiate if "our" rights are granted by a greater than man force (the Creator), or if you want to elevate gov't to the grantor of basic rights (those listed in the Bill of Rights).

BTW, in countries that have given the gov't the power to grant rights, human rights aren't doing so well.

It is okay, you can admit that you like riding the prosperity of Christians, but want to be free to revel in corruption whenever you want to, and how you please.

One can recognize a Creator that is not necessarily the Judeo-Christian god. Freemasons do it at every single meeting.

 

[logical4u]

Madison and Jefferson disagree with you, logical4u.

The constitution disagrees with you, logical4u.

SCOTUS disagrees with you, logical4u.

This is over.

Still waiting for that list of FF that were Hindu, Buddahist, or some other religion beside Christian, Jakey. And please provide some documentation.

There were Deists and Atheists among the FF's. Deism and Atheism are generally considered to be non-Christian.

names, documentation (evidence)

 

[Hollie]

Still waiting for that list of FF that were Hindu, Buddahist, or some other religion beside Christian, Jakey. And please provide some documentation.

There were Deists and Atheists among the FF's. Deism and Atheism are generally considered to be non-Christian.

names, documentation (evidence)

A list was already posted in thid thread.

 

[Hollie]

Only if you want to differentiate if "our" rights are granted by a greater than man force (the Creator), or if you want to elevate gov't to the grantor of basic rights (those listed in the Bill of Rights).

BTW, in countries that have given the gov't the power to grant rights, human rights aren't doing so well.

It is okay, you can admit that you like riding the prosperity of Christians, but want to be free to revel in corruption whenever you want to, and how you please.

One can recognize a Creator that is not necessarily the Judeo-Christian god. Freemasons do it at every single meeting.

The Judeo-Christian gods are merely the latest invention of gods in a very long list of gods.

To the back of the line you go.

 

[Crackerjack]

Only if you want to differentiate if "our" rights are granted by a greater than man force (the Creator), or if you want to elevate gov't to the grantor of basic rights (those listed in the Bill of Rights).

BTW, in countries that have given the gov't the power to grant rights, human rights aren't doing so well.

It is okay, you can admit that you like riding the prosperity of Christians, but want to be free to revel in corruption whenever you want to, and how you please.

One can recognize a Creator that is not necessarily the Judeo-Christian god. Freemasons do it at every single meeting.

... but go right on ignoring evidence that is contrary to your pre-conceived notions.

 

[JimBowie1958]

There were Deists and Atheists among the FF's. Deism and Atheism are generally considered to be non-Christian.

Why do you think deism and Christianity are completely incompatible?

The core of Deism is the idea that God created the universe and left it to run on its own, i.e. the planets dont have to be pushed around by angels, etc.

There is nothing about that idea that iscontrary to the Bible or Christian core doctrines.

Why do you think that gods fearing Christians would endorse a secular constitution?

Because:
1) they wanted to prevent the federal government from messing with their own state religions in their home states.
2) They came from Europe usually under some kind of threat or coersion and did not want to see such tyrany return.
3) Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's.

 

[logical4u]

Madison and Jefferson disagree with you, logical4u.

The constitution disagrees with you, logical4u.

SCOTUS disagrees with you, logical4u.

This is over.

Still waiting for that list of FF that were Hindu, Buddahist, or some other religion beside Christian, Jakey. And please provide some documentation.

There were Deists and Atheists among the FF's. Deism and Atheism are generally considered to be non-Christian.

Why do you think that gods fearing Christians would endorse a secular constitution?

It appears you are stating opinions since there are no names and no evidence with your post.