YES, America CERTAINLY WAS FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN NATION...

[JakeStarkey]

I corrected UR for being condescending to Hollie and subtly tried to intimidate a woman about her sexual orientation.

UR bragged about himself, his job, his whatever, and I told him that none of that counted, but since he did, I did the same. No one cares if he believes my background at all, because it is not all important to the thread.

UR is really angry I batoned him down for being an internet bully, then he makes unsubtle threats to me. He got angry because I did to him what he did to me.

UR does not understand our historical and political narrative, period. We are generally a nation of Christians, whose Founders, mostly Christian, founded a secular Constitution and national government. Within 50 year, all states followed.

Now I encourage UR to quit whining, to treat others way he wishes to be treated, and stick to topic and not personalities. I will treat him exactly as he treats others.

Jake, the bottom line is, you can make up anything you want about yourself. I seriously doubt you have every been in the military. And most folks that I know, who are successful making money, don't need to go around bragging about it or proving it to others. Go ahead and read back the posts. It is YOU making threats. It is YOU disrespecting my service to my community. It is YOU being condescending to other posters. And it is YOU barking out commands to everyone else, like you own this forum. It is obvious in denying the Creator you have developed your own god complex. Your posts are narcissistic to the core.

Now let's take a look back at who the REAL, condescending, internet bully is. [and by the way, this behavior is more like a pimply-faced, 17-year-old, not your lies about military service and being a business owner] Funny you accuse me of the very behavior you are continually engaging in.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Along with all the other lawmakers of antiquity of great fame.

By the way, it is on the frieze, not the wall.

And you did not answer the question.

Let's look at the little post that started this whole legal discussion. Now can anyone count how many strawmen were erected in response? Last post said I claimed our legal system is based on the Bible. This is a fact not disputed by any attorney or historian. However, no where is this thread was the claim made it was exclusively on the Bible, which is the main strawmen that started crawling out of the ground like zombies. So many posters bring so much of a constrained worldview to this thread, they think they know what is being said before it is being said.

What laws, specifically were based upon the Bible, and did not exist in Greek/Roman legal tradition?

The laws in the Old Testament that predated Rome, like the Ten Commandments, which happen to be prominently displayed in the Supreme Court.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Blah, blah, blah, almost all of which we agree with, but religious tests were excluded from the Constitutions.

Not all Founders were Christian, and not one of them would be comfortable in the Evangelical and Fundamentalist churches of our day.

This thread has been so convoluted by accusations, strawman arguments and Ad Hominem attacks that I think it bears repeating what [I think] the Christian posters are saying:

We believe in First Ammendment rights, and more specifically Freedom of Religion. We believe every American has the right to worship as they please or not at all. We believe all faiths should be free from persecution for their beliefs.

We believe the Constitution was written by Christian men or men who believed in God. We believe they were careful to prevent one denomination from being forced on the public by government, as was the case in England. We believe our heritage is steeped in a deep Christian faith. We believe the Pilgrims came here to advance the Christian Faith. We believe that Christian principles, including the long historical tradition Christianity flows from, were the basis for many of ideals and laws that were implemented in the new government. We believe America was a Christian nation at the onset, being made up mostly of persecuted Christians that had fled England.

We also believe the Founders never intended for God to be removed from the US Government. While they were sensitive not to show preference to one specific denomination or CHURCH, it was always their intent that God would be a part of government.

If any of the pro-Christian Nation folks disagree with this, feel free to chime in.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You lose, because it is merely a legal attestation, that is not part of the Constitution.

You fail.

When you sign a "contract", are you signing your agreement for "everything" that is written there?

I was asked to provide a single reference to God in the Constitution. I did that. Now the braying starts.

There is no reference to God in the Constitution....there is a date with the word "lord" in it. Spin all you want.

You're right. "Year of OUR Lord " is a reference to Christ. You won't win this argument, not matter how many times you repeat the same thing over and over.

 

[JakeStarkey]

God fearing Christians not shop on Sunday at all, much less Wal-Mart. I have never understand how those among us can claim their faith but stroll into the market, the restaurant, or the theatre on the Sabbath.

Still waiting for that list of FF that were Hindu, Buddahist, or some other religion beside Christian, Jakey. And please provide some documentation.

There were Deists and Atheists among the FF's. Deism and Atheism are generally considered to be non-Christian.

Why do you think that gods fearing Christians would endorse a secular constitution?

Same reason God Fearing Christians shop at Walmart.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Jefferson, Franklin, Allan, Paine, and at least dozen other weak Christians.

names, documentation (evidence)

A list was already posted in thid thread.

You mean all two of them?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Great discussion. i see UR bending slightly toward a realist narrative of American history. He also has improved his approach personally to others. That is good.

 

[Truthmatters]

Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net


To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.




This is where the phrase came from that they claim is not written into the constitution.


They fail ot understand why its used because they hate education

this

 

[Truthmatters]

James Madison on separation of church/state:

The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State (Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819).

Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and & Gov't in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history (Detached Memoranda, circa 1820).

Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together (Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822).

Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform (Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731).

p.s. James Madison and Thomas Jefferson were heavily involved in creating the constitution.

and this

 

[Hollie]

names, documentation (evidence)

A list was already posted in thid thread.

You mean the men that publicly said prayers and was documented here? You think that men that pray publicly, and call on the Almighty God are Deists and Atheists?

It's also clear that many of the FF's were clearly not christians and clearly had no intention of allowing a christian theocracy to develop.

I understand your need to attempt to force your gods into the constitution but that was expressly denied by the FF's.

 

[bodecea]

Let's look at the little post that started this whole legal discussion. Now can anyone count how many strawmen were erected in response? Last post said I claimed our legal system is based on the Bible. This is a fact not disputed by any attorney or historian. However, no where is this thread was the claim made it was exclusively on the Bible, which is the main strawmen that started crawling out of the ground like zombies. So many posters bring so much of a constrained worldview to this thread, they think they know what is being said before it is being said.

What laws, specifically were based upon the Bible, and did not exist in Greek/Roman legal tradition?

The laws in the Old Testament that predated Rome, like the Ten Commandments, which happen to be prominently displayed in the Supreme Court.

No it isn't. Stop lying.

 

[bodecea]

When you sign a "contract", are you signing your agreement for "everything" that is written there?

I was asked to provide a single reference to God in the Constitution. I did that. Now the braying starts.

There is no reference to God in the Constitution....there is a date with the word "lord" in it. Spin all you want.

You're right. "Year of OUR Lord " is a reference to Christ. You won't win this argument, not matter how many times you repeat the same thing over and over.

No, it is a reference to a date where someone was executed....someone who many people believe came back from dead in some form.

 

[UltimateReality]

There is no reference to God in the Constitution....there is a date with the word "lord" in it. Spin all you want.

You're right. "Year of OUR Lord " is a reference to Christ. You won't win this argument, not matter how many times you repeat the same thing over and over.

Similarly, "Year of OUR Lord " was simply a closing salutationand in spite of your desperate need to force chrsitianity into the constitution, the framers of the constitution knew that would be a disaster. Hence they used the term "creator": Amun Ra.

Why are you still commenting on this? You already got owned by Logic4U when you denied the word Lord was found in the Constitution. You obviously had never read the Constitution before two days ago.

 

[UltimateReality]

No one is falling for your saintly act. You think no on will notice how you conveniently left out all your bullying quotes? Someone else brought up the fact I was a cop and discredited my service before I made mention of my unblemished record, so nice try on twisting the truth.

I corrected UR for being condescending to Hollie and subtly tried to intimidate a woman about her sexual orientation.

UR bragged about himself, his job, his whatever, and I told him that none of that counted, but since he did, I did the same. No one cares if he believes my background at all, because it is not all important to the thread.

UR is really angry I batoned him down for being an internet bully, then he makes unsubtle threats to me. He got angry because I did to him what he did to me.

UR does not understand our historical and political narrative, period. We are generally a nation of Christians, whose Founders, mostly Christian, founded a secular Constitution and national government. Within 50 year, all states followed.

Now I encourage UR to quit whining, to treat others way he wishes to be treated, and stick to topic and not personalities. I will treat him exactly as he treats others.

Jake, the bottom line is, you can make up anything you want about yourself. I seriously doubt you have every been in the military. And most folks that I know, who are successful making money, don't need to go around bragging about it or proving it to others. Go ahead and read back the posts. It is YOU making threats. It is YOU disrespecting my service to my community. It is YOU being condescending to other posters. And it is YOU barking out commands to everyone else, like you own this forum. It is obvious in denying the Creator you have developed your own god complex. Your posts are narcissistic to the core.

Now let's take a look back at who the REAL, condescending, internet bully is. [and by the way, this behavior is more like a pimply-faced, 17-year-old, not your lies about military service and being a business owner] Funny you accuse me of the very behavior you are continually engaging in.

 

[UltimateReality]

God fearing Christians not shop on Sunday at all, much less Wal-Mart. I have never understand how those among us can claim their faith but stroll into the market, the restaurant, or the theatre on the Sabbath.

There were Deists and Atheists among the FF's. Deism and Atheism are generally considered to be non-Christian.

Why do you think that gods fearing Christians would endorse a secular constitution?

Same reason God Fearing Christians shop at Walmart.

Your lack of understanding is due to your ignorance. The Sabbath is Saturday.

 

[UltimateReality]

Great discussion. i see UR bending slightly toward a realist narrative of American history. He also has improved his approach personally to others. That is good.

More condescending comments. I think its time for you to leave and take your narcissistic, king of this thread attitude with you.

 

[Truthmatters]

Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net


To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.




you can read what the founders intended in their own words

 

[Truthmatters]

anyone who says there was NO intention of a separation of church and state is a liar after reading the founders words

 

[Hollie]

You're right. "Year of OUR Lord " is a reference to Christ. You won't win this argument, not matter how many times you repeat the same thing over and over.

Similarly, "Year of OUR Lord " was simply a closing salutationand in spite of your desperate need to force chrsitianity into the constitution, the framers of the constitution knew that would be a disaster. Hence they used the term "creator": Amun Ra.

Why are you still commenting on this? You already got owned by Logic4U when you denied the word Lord was found in the Constitution. You obviously had never read the Constitution before two days ago.

I'm commenting on this because of your false characterization that the closing salutation of "lord" has some significance to the constitution. Of course it does not. It is simply your frantic effort to insert your religion into the constitution where it does not belong.

The framers of the constitution were very clear about being neutral to any and all religious views. They were clear about government not meddling in religion. It's completely unnecessary for you to re-write the constitution to include your religious views.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I am quite older than you, 12 years active of duty in the infantry and airborne, several years with what is now citigroup, a businessman, earned several graduate degrees, active in school board, community organizations, and my church.

What about you?

Yeah, I believe that as much as I believe you're a Republican, Fakey.