10 Myths about atheists debunked

[emilynghiem]

I could link many, many more but why bother if you can't respond or even watch the first one.

No, I never said you were rude. I just find it odd that you are proclaiming atheists as rude and when I had evidence to show christians being worse you simply dismissed it. That is called taking a hypocritical stance.
How is it not real evidence. Please elaborate.

The point was to show you your original stance was one sided and incorrect. Like I said before you can find instances on this forum on both sides being rude to each other. To proclaim only one is, is being dishonest. Also please provide thses videos were atheists are being as bad as the christians in the video I put up.
Sorry but you are going to have to explain this statement. What is the "myth" about atheism?
No, but your blatant one sided approach is very suspect.

My statement is that essentially that the typical American atheist is more likely to viciously attack others beliefs and refer to them as stupid than other people. The OP had an article called ten myths about atheists. One of the myths was that they are rude and I am saying that it is in fact not a myth. It is there for a reason. Like a stereotype. Black people good at basketball, Asians good at math, or black people liking watermelon. I doubt there is any research into the claims I make for or against them. A video can be made by anyone and posted. I don't take online videos as serious evidence of a hateful culture because you could find ten videos and it wouldn't shock me at all that there are ten videos out there of Christians saying hateful things to atheists. That's why there's no point in watching it is because I already believe it exists. Jehovah witnesses may be annoying but I have yet to have one call me an idiot and say I can't be reasoned with. On the reverse side I have experienced this multiple times from discussions with atheists. I don't know why you would think that an atheist is above saying hateful things to people when there is literally no moral code as an atheist. You may be a good atheist but what about the next atheist? He could have his own set of principles completely the opposite of what you believe. There is no consistency. In a religion it is already outlined what you should do. If you don't follow it then you're fake.

I can prove to you that there is no moral code for christians either. Care to take the challenge?

Just because someone calls them self a christian doesn't make them a christian or a Muslim a Muslim. The moral code I'm talking about is in the bible or whatever religious book used. If any "christian" isn't making an attempt at following the bible then they aren't a christian. It's that simple. You can find preachers/priests who molest. You can also find atheists who molest. You act as if I believe anyone who claims a religion is perfect.

I'm not sure about that. I find some "neighbors in Christ" live by the SAME spirit of "Restorative Justice" that Jesus Christ embodies, but these people use Natural Laws
and not necessarily the Bible.

I have Muslim and Atheist friends I consider "neighbors in Christ" because they respond by conscience and relate to humanity the same as Christians, but use their own laws to describe their responsibilities to their neighbors, humanity and society.
This is still INVOKING the Christian spirit, but using their own local laws and language to establish truth by agreement by conscience. the process in one in Christ, though the language may vary depending on the audience or "tribe" that person represents or addresses.

There are two folds of the one flock and Jesus still governs them both as the spirit of
JUSTICE:
* the Believers under Scriptural laws (Muslims, Jews Christians and any others who invoke Biblical authority)
* the Secular Gentiles under Natural laws (Buddhists, Humanists, Constitutionalists, Nontheists / Atheists, Social Sciences, etc.)

You can still be Christian and follow the secular fold under natural laws
that is equally fulfilled in Christ Jesus. See Romans 2:14
Romans 2 14 Indeed when Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature things required by the law they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.

I happen to know enough Muslims, Atheists and "nonchristians" who live by
Restorative Justice to know this is the same spirit as Christ Jesus. We are able to forgive and receive each other "in the spirit of Christ Jesus" even though this is called Justice and Peace.

There will be righteous gentiles
who receive rebuke and seek truth to make peace, just like Christians are
supposed to follow by Matthew 18:15-20
Thus by their spirit and their fruits you shall know them.
If they do not reject Christ Jesus, if they receive all neighbors who come in the name
of Christ Jesus or Restorative Justice, then they become reconciled in Christ.
it's an ongoing process. Until the spirit of truth reconciles all tribes as one in harmony.

I believe in the end stages, it is the Gentiles who lead the way to establish truth;
so the spirit of truth is established, then the spirit of Justice or Jesus is invoked in that spirit, and then the Holy Spirit or Peace for all humanity accompanies the establishment of Justice.

So the secular gentiles play an important role in the final stages,
by using science and reason to establish truth by agreement.

Whenever I read the bible I took the gentiles to mean non Jews because the Jews had repeatedly turned away from him therefore non Jews would lead the end times. My interpretation of that was that it was just anyone but the Jews.

Yes, well now that Christ reconciles all followers with the Jewish lineage,
then this makes all believers one with the Jews and Christians under scriptural authority.

Previously in history, Gentiles referred to the Greeks who followed their natural ethics.
And it was Aquinas who reconciled the Greek ethics with church theology to prove
these were consistent, as natural laws also given by God, and was not "heresy or apostasy" coming from "outside the church or assumed not from God."

Today, more priests have followed suit by reconciling Buddhism as not against Christianity but complementary to it similar to the Greek ethics that were consistent.

And now I'm finding that Constitutional laws, also derived from natural laws,
are another language of the secular gentiles.

It seems there are as many branches of believers coming out of the Muslim/Jewish/Christian lineages as there are Secular Gentiles branching out
under the fold of the Natural Law followers.

Regardless of tribal language and local laws, the point is to be reconciled in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace, which is the meaning behind the Trinity.
Every religion or system of laws has some form of the trinity, because human nature
is body, mind, spirit (physical, mental and spiritual/collective);
so that laws or religions are used to represent the RELATIONSHIP
between the individual/physical level of life and the collective or spiritual level of life.

The central level that joins the individual with the collective,
or the physical with the spiritual, or "man with God" is
what Christ represents; and this is the connection in the Conscience
where man reconciles with man in human relations or "man reconciles with God"
on a collective scale. This is where Justice is found, within in and among us.
So that is what it means to seek to establish the governance of Justice for all humanity.

 

[SUPERMAN1929]

Just because someone calls them self a christian doesn't make them a christian or a Muslim a Muslim. The moral code I'm talking about is in the bible or whatever religious book used. If any "christian" isn't making an attempt at following the bible then they aren't a christian. It's that simple. You can find preachers/priests who molest. You can also find atheists who molest. You act as if I believe anyone who claims a religion is perfect.

Christians are quick to forgive their own and weigh in that their Christianity should be a relevant mitigation in their punishment.

Example? Real or fake I just want to know what kind of situation you are talking about.

Nearly every Christian gets some benefit of the doubt when in court and upon receiving sentence as the words "But you honor he/she is a good Christian".

This happens thousands of times a day all over the country.

Most judges are religious people. It is nearly impossible to get elected or appointed to any position in the judicial system if you are not a Christian or a devout Jew.

You can't tell me that the judge's religious preferences do not reflect on their decisions.

I've never heard of someone mentioning in court them being a christian or any religion as a reason for lighter sentencing or getting off the hook. I've never heard a judge talk with the accused of religion.

Are you talking about getting out on parole? When getting out on parole I feel as though it is easier if you converted to a religion and then hold it dear and promise to live by it's guidelines. You know Alcoholics Anonymous, the most successful alcohol/drug addiction recovery program, also uses religion as a method of recovery. It strongly believes that without a belief in some higher power you will not be able to defeat the addiction. I imagine it's a similar thought process when considering someone for parole.

Your response is so naive that at first I was shocked by it. Clearly you have never been in a courtroom or on a jury. I have. I have observed the judicial system on my own just for the knowledge of how it works.

I don't believe AA is the most successful drug/alcohol treatment. Shock aversion therapy is proven to be more successful and allows the patient to return to a normal life without the time wasted in group admission peer pressure.

Provide statistics of how atheists are discriminated against in the court room and I will believe.

Shock aversion therapy doesn't work on meth or heroine. AA helps many heroine addicts get clean and stay clean.

 

[dilloduck]

Natural Laws ? Please not again. There are no natural laws.

 

[SUPERMAN1929]

My statement is that essentially that the typical American atheist is more likely to viciously attack others beliefs and refer to them as stupid than other people. The OP had an article called ten myths about atheists. One of the myths was that they are rude and I am saying that it is in fact not a myth. It is there for a reason. Like a stereotype. Black people good at basketball, Asians good at math, or black people liking watermelon. I doubt there is any research into the claims I make for or against them. A video can be made by anyone and posted. I don't take online videos as serious evidence of a hateful culture because you could find ten videos and it wouldn't shock me at all that there are ten videos out there of Christians saying hateful things to atheists. That's why there's no point in watching it is because I already believe it exists. Jehovah witnesses may be annoying but I have yet to have one call me an idiot and say I can't be reasoned with. On the reverse side I have experienced this multiple times from discussions with atheists. I don't know why you would think that an atheist is above saying hateful things to people when there is literally no moral code as an atheist. You may be a good atheist but what about the next atheist? He could have his own set of principles completely the opposite of what you believe. There is no consistency. In a religion it is already outlined what you should do. If you don't follow it then you're fake.

I can prove to you that there is no moral code for christians either. Care to take the challenge?

Just because someone calls them self a christian doesn't make them a christian or a Muslim a Muslim. The moral code I'm talking about is in the bible or whatever religious book used. If any "christian" isn't making an attempt at following the bible then they aren't a christian. It's that simple. You can find preachers/priests who molest. You can also find atheists who molest. You act as if I believe anyone who claims a religion is perfect.

I'm not sure about that. I find some "neighbors in Christ" live by the SAME spirit of "Restorative Justice" that Jesus Christ embodies, but these people use Natural Laws
and not necessarily the Bible.

I have Muslim and Atheist friends I consider "neighbors in Christ" because they respond by conscience and relate to humanity the same as Christians, but use their own laws to describe their responsibilities to their neighbors, humanity and society.
This is still INVOKING the Christian spirit, but using their own local laws and language to establish truth by agreement by conscience. the process in one in Christ, though the language may vary depending on the audience or "tribe" that person represents or addresses.

There are two folds of the one flock and Jesus still governs them both as the spirit of
JUSTICE:
* the Believers under Scriptural laws (Muslims, Jews Christians and any others who invoke Biblical authority)
* the Secular Gentiles under Natural laws (Buddhists, Humanists, Constitutionalists, Nontheists / Atheists, Social Sciences, etc.)

You can still be Christian and follow the secular fold under natural laws
that is equally fulfilled in Christ Jesus. See Romans 2:14
Romans 2 14 Indeed when Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature things required by the law they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.

I happen to know enough Muslims, Atheists and "nonchristians" who live by
Restorative Justice to know this is the same spirit as Christ Jesus. We are able to forgive and receive each other "in the spirit of Christ Jesus" even though this is called Justice and Peace.

There will be righteous gentiles
who receive rebuke and seek truth to make peace, just like Christians are
supposed to follow by Matthew 18:15-20
Thus by their spirit and their fruits you shall know them.
If they do not reject Christ Jesus, if they receive all neighbors who come in the name
of Christ Jesus or Restorative Justice, then they become reconciled in Christ.
it's an ongoing process. Until the spirit of truth reconciles all tribes as one in harmony.

I believe in the end stages, it is the Gentiles who lead the way to establish truth;
so the spirit of truth is established, then the spirit of Justice or Jesus is invoked in that spirit, and then the Holy Spirit or Peace for all humanity accompanies the establishment of Justice.

So the secular gentiles play an important role in the final stages,
by using science and reason to establish truth by agreement.

Whenever I read the bible I took the gentiles to mean non Jews because the Jews had repeatedly turned away from him therefore non Jews would lead the end times. My interpretation of that was that it was just anyone but the Jews.

Yes, well now that Christ reconciles all followers with the Jewish lineage,
then this makes all believers one with the Jews and Christians under scriptural authority.

Previously in history, Gentiles referred to the Greeks who followed their natural ethics.
And it was Aquinas who reconciled the Greek ethics with church theology to prove
these were consistent, as natural laws also given by God, and was not "heresy or apostasy" coming from "outside the church or assumed not from God."

Today, more priests have followed suit by reconciling Buddhism as not against Christianity but complementary to it similar to the Greek ethics that were consistent.

And now I'm finding that Constitutional laws, also derived from natural laws,
are another language of the secular gentiles.

It seems there are as many branches of believers coming out of the Muslim/Jewish/Christian lineages as there are Secular Gentiles branching out
under the fold of the Natural Law followers.

Regardless of tribal language and local laws, the point is to be reconciled in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace, which is the meaning behind the Trinity.
Every religion or system of laws has some form of the trinity, because human nature
is body, mind, spirit (physical, mental and spiritual/collective);
so that laws or religions are used to represent the RELATIONSHIP
between the individual/physical level of life and the collective or spiritual level of life.

The central level that joins the individual with the collective,
or the physical with the spiritual, or "man with God" is
what Christ represents; and this is the connection in the Conscience
where man reconciles with man in human relations or "man reconciles with God"
on a collective scale. This is where Justice is found, within in and among us.
So that is what it means to seek to establish the governance of Justice for all humanity.

I have to agree with dilloduck. The natural law of life is greed, survival, and kill or be killed. All the good laws you mention come from religion.

 

[emilynghiem]

prochoice principles. Isn't that an oxymoron ?

Yes it is -- when people defeat their own principles.
Prochoice is the secular equivalent of religious freedom or liberty from govt imposition.
I know many conservatives who are consistent about their prochoice views because they enforce this on constitutional grounds, and apply that consistently.

But with liberals, with these ACA mandates, the prochoice left totally contradicted their own arguments. That legislation is clearly anti-choice by only exempting insurance and penalizing any other "choice" of how to pay for or provide for health care. It's almost like prochoice and prolife have switched places; and now the prolife lobbies want "free choice" while the prochoice are pushing for govt mandates and sacrificing free market choices.

Same with leftwing lobbies seeking to BAN the choice of conversion therapy as harmful, but won't touch abortion and still want minors to have access without parental permission.

This is why "prochoice" comes across as "pro abortion" because the same people won't defend choice in other areas. Totally contradictory. It's gotten to the point I'd even argue the Democrats should be sued for political discrimination, or fraud and misrepresentation, and conspiring to violate equal civil rights.

 

[emilynghiem]

I can prove to you that there is no moral code for christians either. Care to take the challenge?

Just because someone calls them self a christian doesn't make them a christian or a Muslim a Muslim. The moral code I'm talking about is in the bible or whatever religious book used. If any "christian" isn't making an attempt at following the bible then they aren't a christian. It's that simple. You can find preachers/priests who molest. You can also find atheists who molest. You act as if I believe anyone who claims a religion is perfect.

I'm not sure about that. I find some "neighbors in Christ" live by the SAME spirit of "Restorative Justice" that Jesus Christ embodies, but these people use Natural Laws
and not necessarily the Bible.

I have Muslim and Atheist friends I consider "neighbors in Christ" because they respond by conscience and relate to humanity the same as Christians, but use their own laws to describe their responsibilities to their neighbors, humanity and society.
This is still INVOKING the Christian spirit, but using their own local laws and language to establish truth by agreement by conscience. the process in one in Christ, though the language may vary depending on the audience or "tribe" that person represents or addresses.

There are two folds of the one flock and Jesus still governs them both as the spirit of
JUSTICE:
* the Believers under Scriptural laws (Muslims, Jews Christians and any others who invoke Biblical authority)
* the Secular Gentiles under Natural laws (Buddhists, Humanists, Constitutionalists, Nontheists / Atheists, Social Sciences, etc.)

You can still be Christian and follow the secular fold under natural laws
that is equally fulfilled in Christ Jesus. See Romans 2:14
Romans 2 14 Indeed when Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature things required by the law they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.

I happen to know enough Muslims, Atheists and "nonchristians" who live by
Restorative Justice to know this is the same spirit as Christ Jesus. We are able to forgive and receive each other "in the spirit of Christ Jesus" even though this is called Justice and Peace.

There will be righteous gentiles
who receive rebuke and seek truth to make peace, just like Christians are
supposed to follow by Matthew 18:15-20
Thus by their spirit and their fruits you shall know them.
If they do not reject Christ Jesus, if they receive all neighbors who come in the name
of Christ Jesus or Restorative Justice, then they become reconciled in Christ.
it's an ongoing process. Until the spirit of truth reconciles all tribes as one in harmony.

I believe in the end stages, it is the Gentiles who lead the way to establish truth;
so the spirit of truth is established, then the spirit of Justice or Jesus is invoked in that spirit, and then the Holy Spirit or Peace for all humanity accompanies the establishment of Justice.

So the secular gentiles play an important role in the final stages,
by using science and reason to establish truth by agreement.

Whenever I read the bible I took the gentiles to mean non Jews because the Jews had repeatedly turned away from him therefore non Jews would lead the end times. My interpretation of that was that it was just anyone but the Jews.

Yes, well now that Christ reconciles all followers with the Jewish lineage,
then this makes all believers one with the Jews and Christians under scriptural authority.

Previously in history, Gentiles referred to the Greeks who followed their natural ethics.
And it was Aquinas who reconciled the Greek ethics with church theology to prove
these were consistent, as natural laws also given by God, and was not "heresy or apostasy" coming from "outside the church or assumed not from God."

Today, more priests have followed suit by reconciling Buddhism as not against Christianity but complementary to it similar to the Greek ethics that were consistent.

And now I'm finding that Constitutional laws, also derived from natural laws,
are another language of the secular gentiles.

It seems there are as many branches of believers coming out of the Muslim/Jewish/Christian lineages as there are Secular Gentiles branching out
under the fold of the Natural Law followers.

Regardless of tribal language and local laws, the point is to be reconciled in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace, which is the meaning behind the Trinity.
Every religion or system of laws has some form of the trinity, because human nature
is body, mind, spirit (physical, mental and spiritual/collective);
so that laws or religions are used to represent the RELATIONSHIP
between the individual/physical level of life and the collective or spiritual level of life.

The central level that joins the individual with the collective,
or the physical with the spiritual, or "man with God" is
what Christ represents; and this is the connection in the Conscience
where man reconciles with man in human relations or "man reconciles with God"
on a collective scale. This is where Justice is found, within in and among us.
So that is what it means to seek to establish the governance of Justice for all humanity.

I have to agree with dilloduck. The natural law of life is greed, survival, and kill or be killed. All the good laws you mention come from religion.

You are only citing one side of natural laws.
What about the part of human nature that naturally sympathizes with the suffering of others; where people naturally jump to help when someone is in distress.

What about the drive in the human conscience that seeks equal justice for all humanity.

As for where the evil comes from,
when people don't forgive wrongs from the past, these can project forward and repeat.

so yes, there is that part of the human learning curve also.
It is like the stages of grief and recovery: some people are in the anger phase,
some in denial and projection of blame onto others.

But those are not the only two stages.
These too shall pass.

There is also bargaining, resolution, acceptance and peace.
You cannot be fearful and greedy and expect to get through the rest of the stages.

So at some point, people have to grow up spiritually.
And not STAY in the selfish rebellious two-year-old or the teenager phase.

That is not the whole of humanity or the entire process.

There are many spiritual "Adults and Elders" seeking to educate and mentor others
in a sustainable process of development in stages, like a school, but in life in general.

We don't have to let the terrible two's and teens destroy the school.
Yes, humanity goes through that stage, but we can learn how to mentor people through it.

So this "greedy rebellious" stage, where people form cliques cults or gangs
and attack each other for power and control, this can be managed, too.

 

[SUPERMAN1929]

Just because someone calls them self a christian doesn't make them a christian or a Muslim a Muslim. The moral code I'm talking about is in the bible or whatever religious book used. If any "christian" isn't making an attempt at following the bible then they aren't a christian. It's that simple. You can find preachers/priests who molest. You can also find atheists who molest. You act as if I believe anyone who claims a religion is perfect.

I'm not sure about that. I find some "neighbors in Christ" live by the SAME spirit of "Restorative Justice" that Jesus Christ embodies, but these people use Natural Laws
and not necessarily the Bible.

I have Muslim and Atheist friends I consider "neighbors in Christ" because they respond by conscience and relate to humanity the same as Christians, but use their own laws to describe their responsibilities to their neighbors, humanity and society.
This is still INVOKING the Christian spirit, but using their own local laws and language to establish truth by agreement by conscience. the process in one in Christ, though the language may vary depending on the audience or "tribe" that person represents or addresses.

There are two folds of the one flock and Jesus still governs them both as the spirit of
JUSTICE:
* the Believers under Scriptural laws (Muslims, Jews Christians and any others who invoke Biblical authority)
* the Secular Gentiles under Natural laws (Buddhists, Humanists, Constitutionalists, Nontheists / Atheists, Social Sciences, etc.)

You can still be Christian and follow the secular fold under natural laws
that is equally fulfilled in Christ Jesus. See Romans 2:14
Romans 2 14 Indeed when Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature things required by the law they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.

I happen to know enough Muslims, Atheists and "nonchristians" who live by
Restorative Justice to know this is the same spirit as Christ Jesus. We are able to forgive and receive each other "in the spirit of Christ Jesus" even though this is called Justice and Peace.

There will be righteous gentiles
who receive rebuke and seek truth to make peace, just like Christians are
supposed to follow by Matthew 18:15-20
Thus by their spirit and their fruits you shall know them.
If they do not reject Christ Jesus, if they receive all neighbors who come in the name
of Christ Jesus or Restorative Justice, then they become reconciled in Christ.
it's an ongoing process. Until the spirit of truth reconciles all tribes as one in harmony.

I believe in the end stages, it is the Gentiles who lead the way to establish truth;
so the spirit of truth is established, then the spirit of Justice or Jesus is invoked in that spirit, and then the Holy Spirit or Peace for all humanity accompanies the establishment of Justice.

So the secular gentiles play an important role in the final stages,
by using science and reason to establish truth by agreement.

Whenever I read the bible I took the gentiles to mean non Jews because the Jews had repeatedly turned away from him therefore non Jews would lead the end times. My interpretation of that was that it was just anyone but the Jews.

Yes, well now that Christ reconciles all followers with the Jewish lineage,
then this makes all believers one with the Jews and Christians under scriptural authority.

Previously in history, Gentiles referred to the Greeks who followed their natural ethics.
And it was Aquinas who reconciled the Greek ethics with church theology to prove
these were consistent, as natural laws also given by God, and was not "heresy or apostasy" coming from "outside the church or assumed not from God."

Today, more priests have followed suit by reconciling Buddhism as not against Christianity but complementary to it similar to the Greek ethics that were consistent.

And now I'm finding that Constitutional laws, also derived from natural laws,
are another language of the secular gentiles.

It seems there are as many branches of believers coming out of the Muslim/Jewish/Christian lineages as there are Secular Gentiles branching out
under the fold of the Natural Law followers.

Regardless of tribal language and local laws, the point is to be reconciled in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace, which is the meaning behind the Trinity.
Every religion or system of laws has some form of the trinity, because human nature
is body, mind, spirit (physical, mental and spiritual/collective);
so that laws or religions are used to represent the RELATIONSHIP
between the individual/physical level of life and the collective or spiritual level of life.

The central level that joins the individual with the collective,
or the physical with the spiritual, or "man with God" is
what Christ represents; and this is the connection in the Conscience
where man reconciles with man in human relations or "man reconciles with God"
on a collective scale. This is where Justice is found, within in and among us.
So that is what it means to seek to establish the governance of Justice for all humanity.

I have to agree with dilloduck. The natural law of life is greed, survival, and kill or be killed. All the good laws you mention come from religion.

You are only citing one side of natural laws.
What about the part of human nature that naturally sympathizes with the suffering of others; where people naturally jump to help when someone is in distress.

What about the drive in the human conscience that seeks equal justice for all humanity.

As for where the evil comes from,
when people don't forgive wrongs from the past, these can project forward and repeat.

so yes, there is that part of the human learning curve also.
It is like the stages of grief and recovery: some people are in the anger phase,
some in denial and projection of blame onto others.

But those are not the only two stages.
These too shall pass.

There is also bargaining, resolution, acceptance and peace.
You cannot be fearful and greedy and expect to get through the rest of the stages.

So at some point, people have to grow up spiritually.
And not STAY in the selfish rebellious two-year-old or the teenager phase.

That is not the whole of humanity or the entire process.

There are many spiritual "Adults and Elders" seeking to educate and mentor others
in a sustainable process of development in stages, like a school, but in life in general.

We don't have to let the terrible two's and teens destroy the school.
Yes, humanity goes through that stage, but we can learn how to mentor people through it.

So this "greedy rebellious" stage, where people form cliques cults or gangs
and attack each other for power and control, this can be managed, too.

I feel as though natural good only comes up when peace and happiness exists. When hardships come people are quick to turn bad. It must be learned to continue to behave well.

 

[emilynghiem]

Natural Laws ? Please not again. There are no natural laws.

What?

How about this:
* If you treat people with respect, they tend to reciprocate.
If you attack or reject people as hateful, they tend to attack or reject back in defense.

* If you offer people a choice they agree with that benefits them, they will more likely comply. If you force something on people against their will, they will rebel and protest.

Equal and opposite reaction? Cause and effect?
Do any of these laws sound familiar or naturally occurring to you?

I haven't met one human being who didn't protest and voice objection
if coerced to do something they didn't consent to. We natural petition and protest
as part of 'due process' to defend our rights and consent in matters affecting our
sense of freedom, justice, security, peace, interests or wellbeing, whatever you call it.

 

[dilloduck]

I can prove to you that there is no moral code for christians either. Care to take the challenge?

Just because someone calls them self a christian doesn't make them a christian or a Muslim a Muslim. The moral code I'm talking about is in the bible or whatever religious book used. If any "christian" isn't making an attempt at following the bible then they aren't a christian. It's that simple. You can find preachers/priests who molest. You can also find atheists who molest. You act as if I believe anyone who claims a religion is perfect.

I'm not sure about that. I find some "neighbors in Christ" live by the SAME spirit of "Restorative Justice" that Jesus Christ embodies, but these people use Natural Laws
and not necessarily the Bible.

I have Muslim and Atheist friends I consider "neighbors in Christ" because they respond by conscience and relate to humanity the same as Christians, but use their own laws to describe their responsibilities to their neighbors, humanity and society.
This is still INVOKING the Christian spirit, but using their own local laws and language to establish truth by agreement by conscience. the process in one in Christ, though the language may vary depending on the audience or "tribe" that person represents or addresses.

There are two folds of the one flock and Jesus still governs them both as the spirit of
JUSTICE:
* the Believers under Scriptural laws (Muslims, Jews Christians and any others who invoke Biblical authority)
* the Secular Gentiles under Natural laws (Buddhists, Humanists, Constitutionalists, Nontheists / Atheists, Social Sciences, etc.)

You can still be Christian and follow the secular fold under natural laws
that is equally fulfilled in Christ Jesus. See Romans 2:14
Romans 2 14 Indeed when Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature things required by the law they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.

I happen to know enough Muslims, Atheists and "nonchristians" who live by
Restorative Justice to know this is the same spirit as Christ Jesus. We are able to forgive and receive each other "in the spirit of Christ Jesus" even though this is called Justice and Peace.

There will be righteous gentiles
who receive rebuke and seek truth to make peace, just like Christians are
supposed to follow by Matthew 18:15-20
Thus by their spirit and their fruits you shall know them.
If they do not reject Christ Jesus, if they receive all neighbors who come in the name
of Christ Jesus or Restorative Justice, then they become reconciled in Christ.
it's an ongoing process. Until the spirit of truth reconciles all tribes as one in harmony.

I believe in the end stages, it is the Gentiles who lead the way to establish truth;
so the spirit of truth is established, then the spirit of Justice or Jesus is invoked in that spirit, and then the Holy Spirit or Peace for all humanity accompanies the establishment of Justice.

So the secular gentiles play an important role in the final stages,
by using science and reason to establish truth by agreement.

Whenever I read the bible I took the gentiles to mean non Jews because the Jews had repeatedly turned away from him therefore non Jews would lead the end times. My interpretation of that was that it was just anyone but the Jews.

Yes, well now that Christ reconciles all followers with the Jewish lineage,
then this makes all believers one with the Jews and Christians under scriptural authority.

Previously in history, Gentiles referred to the Greeks who followed their natural ethics.
And it was Aquinas who reconciled the Greek ethics with church theology to prove
these were consistent, as natural laws also given by God, and was not "heresy or apostasy" coming from "outside the church or assumed not from God."

Today, more priests have followed suit by reconciling Buddhism as not against Christianity but complementary to it similar to the Greek ethics that were consistent.

And now I'm finding that Constitutional laws, also derived from natural laws,
are another language of the secular gentiles.

It seems there are as many branches of believers coming out of the Muslim/Jewish/Christian lineages as there are Secular Gentiles branching out
under the fold of the Natural Law followers.

Regardless of tribal language and local laws, the point is to be reconciled in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace, which is the meaning behind the Trinity.
Every religion or system of laws has some form of the trinity, because human nature
is body, mind, spirit (physical, mental and spiritual/collective);
so that laws or religions are used to represent the RELATIONSHIP
between the individual/physical level of life and the collective or spiritual level of life.

The central level that joins the individual with the collective,
or the physical with the spiritual, or "man with God" is
what Christ represents; and this is the connection in the Conscience
where man reconciles with man in human relations or "man reconciles with God"
on a collective scale. This is where Justice is found, within in and among us.
So that is what it means to seek to establish the governance of Justice for all humanity.

I have to agree with dilloduck. The natural law of life is greed, survival, and kill or be killed. All the good laws you me

Just because someone calls them self a christian doesn't make them a christian or a Muslim a Muslim. The moral code I'm talking about is in the bible or whatever religious book used. If any "christian" isn't making an attempt at following the bible then they aren't a christian. It's that simple. You can find preachers/priests who molest. You can also find atheists who molest. You act as if I believe anyone who claims a religion is perfect.

I'm not sure about that. I find some "neighbors in Christ" live by the SAME spirit of "Restorative Justice" that Jesus Christ embodies, but these people use Natural Laws
and not necessarily the Bible.

I have Muslim and Atheist friends I consider "neighbors in Christ" because they respond by conscience and relate to humanity the same as Christians, but use their own laws to describe their responsibilities to their neighbors, humanity and society.
This is still INVOKING the Christian spirit, but using their own local laws and language to establish truth by agreement by conscience. the process in one in Christ, though the language may vary depending on the audience or "tribe" that person represents or addresses.

There are two folds of the one flock and Jesus still governs them both as the spirit of
JUSTICE:
* the Believers under Scriptural laws (Muslims, Jews Christians and any others who invoke Biblical authority)
* the Secular Gentiles under Natural laws (Buddhists, Humanists, Constitutionalists, Nontheists / Atheists, Social Sciences, etc.)

You can still be Christian and follow the secular fold under natural laws
that is equally fulfilled in Christ Jesus. See Romans 2:14
Romans 2 14 Indeed when Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature things required by the law they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.

I happen to know enough Muslims, Atheists and "nonchristians" who live by
Restorative Justice to know this is the same spirit as Christ Jesus. We are able to forgive and receive each other "in the spirit of Christ Jesus" even though this is called Justice and Peace.

There will be righteous gentiles
who receive rebuke and seek truth to make peace, just like Christians are
supposed to follow by Matthew 18:15-20
Thus by their spirit and their fruits you shall know them.
If they do not reject Christ Jesus, if they receive all neighbors who come in the name
of Christ Jesus or Restorative Justice, then they become reconciled in Christ.
it's an ongoing process. Until the spirit of truth reconciles all tribes as one in harmony.

I believe in the end stages, it is the Gentiles who lead the way to establish truth;
so the spirit of truth is established, then the spirit of Justice or Jesus is invoked in that spirit, and then the Holy Spirit or Peace for all humanity accompanies the establishment of Justice.

So the secular gentiles play an important role in the final stages,
by using science and reason to establish truth by agreement.

Whenever I read the bible I took the gentiles to mean non Jews because the Jews had repeatedly turned away from him therefore non Jews would lead the end times. My interpretation of that was that it was just anyone but the Jews.

Yes, well now that Christ reconciles all followers with the Jewish lineage,
then this makes all believers one with the Jews and Christians under scriptural authority.

Previously in history, Gentiles referred to the Greeks who followed their natural ethics.
And it was Aquinas who reconciled the Greek ethics with church theology to prove
these were consistent, as natural laws also given by God, and was not "heresy or apostasy" coming from "outside the church or assumed not from God."

Today, more priests have followed suit by reconciling Buddhism as not against Christianity but complementary to it similar to the Greek ethics that were consistent.

And now I'm finding that Constitutional laws, also derived from natural laws,
are another language of the secular gentiles.

It seems there are as many branches of believers coming out of the Muslim/Jewish/Christian lineages as there are Secular Gentiles branching out
under the fold of the Natural Law followers.

Regardless of tribal language and local laws, the point is to be reconciled in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace, which is the meaning behind the Trinity.
Every religion or system of laws has some form of the trinity, because human nature
is body, mind, spirit (physical, mental and spiritual/collective);
so that laws or religions are used to represent the RELATIONSHIP
between the individual/physical level of life and the collective or spiritual level of life.

The central level that joins the individual with the collective,
or the physical with the spiritual, or "man with God" is
what Christ represents; and this is the connection in the Conscience
where man reconciles with man in human relations or "man reconciles with God"
on a collective scale. This is where Justice is found, within in and among us.
So that is what it means to seek to establish the governance of Justice for all humanity.

I have to agree with dilloduck. The natural law of life is greed, survival, and kill or be killed. All the good laws you mention come from religion.

You are only citing one side of natural laws.
What about the part of human nature that naturally sympathizes with the suffering of others; where people naturally jump to help when someone is in distress.

What about the drive in the human conscience that seeks equal justice for all humanity.

As for where the evil comes from,
when people don't forgive wrongs from the past, these can project forward and repeat.

so yes, there is that part of the human learning curve also.
It is like the stages of grief and recovery: some people are in the anger phase,
some in denial and projection of blame onto others.

But those are not the only two stages.
These too shall pass.

There is also bargaining, resolution, acceptance and peace.
You cannot be fearful and greedy and expect to get through the rest of the stages.

So at some point, people have to grow up spiritually.
And not STAY in the selfish rebellious two-year-old or the teenager phase.

That is not the whole of humanity or the entire process.

There are many spiritual "Adults and Elders" seeking to educate and mentor others
in a sustainable process of development in stages, like a school, but in life in general.

We don't have to let the terrible two's and teens destroy the school.
Yes, humanity goes through that stage, but we can learn how to mentor people through it.

So this "greedy rebellious" stage, where people form cliques cults or gangs
and attack each other for power and control, this can be managed, too.

Sympathizing with others is a natural law ?

 

[dilloduck]

Natural Laws ? Please not again. There are no natural laws.

What?

How about this:
* If you treat people with respect, they tend to reciprocate.
If you attack or reject people as hateful, they tend to attack or reject back in defense.

* If you offer people a choice they agree with that benefits them, they will more likely comply. If you force something on people against their will, they will rebel and protest.

Equal and opposite reaction? Cause and effect?
Do any of these laws sound familiar or naturally occurring to you?

I haven't met one human being who didn't protest and voice objection
if coerced to do something they didn't consent to. We natural petition and protest
as part of 'due process' to defend our rights and consent in matters affecting our
sense of freedom, justice, security, peace, interests or wellbeing, whatever you call it.

What natural law makes people rebel when coerced ? The same one that makes them follow like mindless sheep ?

 

[emilynghiem]

I feel as though natural good only comes up when peace and happiness exists. When hardships come people are quick to turn bad. It must be learned to continue to behave well.

SUPERMAN1929
Yes that's the challenge in life. how do we respond to wrongs, conflicts, injustice.
If we seek to correct and prevent them. Or focus on placing or projecting blame.

For the learning curve, what counselors have found is that people who forgive setbacks and focus on being successful despite what goes wrong, even gross injustice by others,
these people tend to recover faster from trauma, and tend to move on and be successful.

The people who stay stuck in victimhood, blaming others for the wrongs and setbacks,
take longer to recover. Some may stay stuck in cycles of abuse, because the negative thinking and energy keeps attracting more and more in a vicious cycle.

So even if we are "completely greedy" and only want to get what benefits us most,
we would STILL learn to forgive and correct things so we can progress faster to our goals.

Hopefully with both the Christians teaching the benefits of forgiveness for healing and receiving better in the future by forgiving the past, and the humanists and social scientists studying peace and justice and conflict resolution, we will learn these point to the same process. So we will have two different independent sources both affirming the same conclusions, based on what experiences or sociological studies will show: forgiveness and correction works better to restore relations and solve problems than anger and blame.

Either way, we should be able to figure it out, by trial and error, by studying consequences of the paths in life we take, which ways work better and which cause problems to repeat.

 

[emilynghiem]

Just because someone calls them self a christian doesn't make them a christian or a Muslim a Muslim. The moral code I'm talking about is in the bible or whatever religious book used. If any "christian" isn't making an attempt at following the bible then they aren't a christian. It's that simple. You can find preachers/priests who molest. You can also find atheists who molest. You act as if I believe anyone who claims a religion is perfect.

I'm not sure about that. I find some "neighbors in Christ" live by the SAME spirit of "Restorative Justice" that Jesus Christ embodies, but these people use Natural Laws
and not necessarily the Bible.

I have Muslim and Atheist friends I consider "neighbors in Christ" because they respond by conscience and relate to humanity the same as Christians, but use their own laws to describe their responsibilities to their neighbors, humanity and society.
This is still INVOKING the Christian spirit, but using their own local laws and language to establish truth by agreement by conscience. the process in one in Christ, though the language may vary depending on the audience or "tribe" that person represents or addresses.

There are two folds of the one flock and Jesus still governs them both as the spirit of
JUSTICE:
* the Believers under Scriptural laws (Muslims, Jews Christians and any others who invoke Biblical authority)
* the Secular Gentiles under Natural laws (Buddhists, Humanists, Constitutionalists, Nontheists / Atheists, Social Sciences, etc.)

You can still be Christian and follow the secular fold under natural laws
that is equally fulfilled in Christ Jesus. See Romans 2:14
Romans 2 14 Indeed when Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature things required by the law they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.

I happen to know enough Muslims, Atheists and "nonchristians" who live by
Restorative Justice to know this is the same spirit as Christ Jesus. We are able to forgive and receive each other "in the spirit of Christ Jesus" even though this is called Justice and Peace.

There will be righteous gentiles
who receive rebuke and seek truth to make peace, just like Christians are
supposed to follow by Matthew 18:15-20
Thus by their spirit and their fruits you shall know them.
If they do not reject Christ Jesus, if they receive all neighbors who come in the name
of Christ Jesus or Restorative Justice, then they become reconciled in Christ.
it's an ongoing process. Until the spirit of truth reconciles all tribes as one in harmony.

I believe in the end stages, it is the Gentiles who lead the way to establish truth;
so the spirit of truth is established, then the spirit of Justice or Jesus is invoked in that spirit, and then the Holy Spirit or Peace for all humanity accompanies the establishment of Justice.

So the secular gentiles play an important role in the final stages,
by using science and reason to establish truth by agreement.

Whenever I read the bible I took the gentiles to mean non Jews because the Jews had repeatedly turned away from him therefore non Jews would lead the end times. My interpretation of that was that it was just anyone but the Jews.

Yes, well now that Christ reconciles all followers with the Jewish lineage,
then this makes all believers one with the Jews and Christians under scriptural authority.

Previously in history, Gentiles referred to the Greeks who followed their natural ethics.
And it was Aquinas who reconciled the Greek ethics with church theology to prove
these were consistent, as natural laws also given by God, and was not "heresy or apostasy" coming from "outside the church or assumed not from God."

Today, more priests have followed suit by reconciling Buddhism as not against Christianity but complementary to it similar to the Greek ethics that were consistent.

And now I'm finding that Constitutional laws, also derived from natural laws,
are another language of the secular gentiles.

It seems there are as many branches of believers coming out of the Muslim/Jewish/Christian lineages as there are Secular Gentiles branching out
under the fold of the Natural Law followers.

Regardless of tribal language and local laws, the point is to be reconciled in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace, which is the meaning behind the Trinity.
Every religion or system of laws has some form of the trinity, because human nature
is body, mind, spirit (physical, mental and spiritual/collective);
so that laws or religions are used to represent the RELATIONSHIP
between the individual/physical level of life and the collective or spiritual level of life.

The central level that joins the individual with the collective,
or the physical with the spiritual, or "man with God" is
what Christ represents; and this is the connection in the Conscience
where man reconciles with man in human relations or "man reconciles with God"
on a collective scale. This is where Justice is found, within in and among us.
So that is what it means to seek to establish the governance of Justice for all humanity.

I have to agree with dilloduck. The natural law of life is greed, survival, and kill or be killed. All the good laws you me

I'm not sure about that. I find some "neighbors in Christ" live by the SAME spirit of "Restorative Justice" that Jesus Christ embodies, but these people use Natural Laws
and not necessarily the Bible.

I have Muslim and Atheist friends I consider "neighbors in Christ" because they respond by conscience and relate to humanity the same as Christians, but use their own laws to describe their responsibilities to their neighbors, humanity and society.
This is still INVOKING the Christian spirit, but using their own local laws and language to establish truth by agreement by conscience. the process in one in Christ, though the language may vary depending on the audience or "tribe" that person represents or addresses.

There are two folds of the one flock and Jesus still governs them both as the spirit of
JUSTICE:
* the Believers under Scriptural laws (Muslims, Jews Christians and any others who invoke Biblical authority)
* the Secular Gentiles under Natural laws (Buddhists, Humanists, Constitutionalists, Nontheists / Atheists, Social Sciences, etc.)

You can still be Christian and follow the secular fold under natural laws
that is equally fulfilled in Christ Jesus. See Romans 2:14
Romans 2 14 Indeed when Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature things required by the law they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.

I happen to know enough Muslims, Atheists and "nonchristians" who live by
Restorative Justice to know this is the same spirit as Christ Jesus. We are able to forgive and receive each other "in the spirit of Christ Jesus" even though this is called Justice and Peace.

There will be righteous gentiles
who receive rebuke and seek truth to make peace, just like Christians are
supposed to follow by Matthew 18:15-20
Thus by their spirit and their fruits you shall know them.
If they do not reject Christ Jesus, if they receive all neighbors who come in the name
of Christ Jesus or Restorative Justice, then they become reconciled in Christ.
it's an ongoing process. Until the spirit of truth reconciles all tribes as one in harmony.

I believe in the end stages, it is the Gentiles who lead the way to establish truth;
so the spirit of truth is established, then the spirit of Justice or Jesus is invoked in that spirit, and then the Holy Spirit or Peace for all humanity accompanies the establishment of Justice.

So the secular gentiles play an important role in the final stages,
by using science and reason to establish truth by agreement.

Whenever I read the bible I took the gentiles to mean non Jews because the Jews had repeatedly turned away from him therefore non Jews would lead the end times. My interpretation of that was that it was just anyone but the Jews.

Yes, well now that Christ reconciles all followers with the Jewish lineage,
then this makes all believers one with the Jews and Christians under scriptural authority.

Previously in history, Gentiles referred to the Greeks who followed their natural ethics.
And it was Aquinas who reconciled the Greek ethics with church theology to prove
these were consistent, as natural laws also given by God, and was not "heresy or apostasy" coming from "outside the church or assumed not from God."

Today, more priests have followed suit by reconciling Buddhism as not against Christianity but complementary to it similar to the Greek ethics that were consistent.

And now I'm finding that Constitutional laws, also derived from natural laws,
are another language of the secular gentiles.

It seems there are as many branches of believers coming out of the Muslim/Jewish/Christian lineages as there are Secular Gentiles branching out
under the fold of the Natural Law followers.

Regardless of tribal language and local laws, the point is to be reconciled in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace, which is the meaning behind the Trinity.
Every religion or system of laws has some form of the trinity, because human nature
is body, mind, spirit (physical, mental and spiritual/collective);
so that laws or religions are used to represent the RELATIONSHIP
between the individual/physical level of life and the collective or spiritual level of life.

The central level that joins the individual with the collective,
or the physical with the spiritual, or "man with God" is
what Christ represents; and this is the connection in the Conscience
where man reconciles with man in human relations or "man reconciles with God"
on a collective scale. This is where Justice is found, within in and among us.
So that is what it means to seek to establish the governance of Justice for all humanity.

I have to agree with dilloduck. The natural law of life is greed, survival, and kill or be killed. All the good laws you mention come from religion.

You are only citing one side of natural laws.
What about the part of human nature that naturally sympathizes with the suffering of others; where people naturally jump to help when someone is in distress.

What about the drive in the human conscience that seeks equal justice for all humanity.

As for where the evil comes from,
when people don't forgive wrongs from the past, these can project forward and repeat.

so yes, there is that part of the human learning curve also.
It is like the stages of grief and recovery: some people are in the anger phase,
some in denial and projection of blame onto others.

But those are not the only two stages.
These too shall pass.

There is also bargaining, resolution, acceptance and peace.
You cannot be fearful and greedy and expect to get through the rest of the stages.

So at some point, people have to grow up spiritually.
And not STAY in the selfish rebellious two-year-old or the teenager phase.

That is not the whole of humanity or the entire process.

There are many spiritual "Adults and Elders" seeking to educate and mentor others
in a sustainable process of development in stages, like a school, but in life in general.

We don't have to let the terrible two's and teens destroy the school.
Yes, humanity goes through that stage, but we can learn how to mentor people through it.

So this "greedy rebellious" stage, where people form cliques cults or gangs
and attack each other for power and control, this can be managed, too.

Sympathizing with others is a natural law ?

Yes, humans by nature have a conscience that connects us with others.
The same connection can cause great sympathy or great outrage and fury
at what other people do.

We have a level of conscience that connects us in relation with others around us,
especially family relations and romantic relations that are usually the most sensitive.

Then there is a collective level of awareness of humanity and society.

So humans are constantly trying to balance the interests and priorities on our consciences between our individual control, our relations with others that are conscious, and the unconscious connections with collective society or humanity.

That's why people get so crazy. This is a lot to juggle.
And every culture has developed religions and laws to try to define the balance
between individual rights and responsibilities and the collective level of society.
And we are still arguing to this day, how much is other people's business
and how much is our own choice or responsibility. All religions have tried to map this out.

 

[dilloduck]

Emily------thousands of years have passed and humans have not even learned how to get along with each other.

 

[dilloduck]

I'm not sure about that. I find some "neighbors in Christ" live by the SAME spirit of "Restorative Justice" that Jesus Christ embodies, but these people use Natural Laws
and not necessarily the Bible.

I have Muslim and Atheist friends I consider "neighbors in Christ" because they respond by conscience and relate to humanity the same as Christians, but use their own laws to describe their responsibilities to their neighbors, humanity and society.
This is still INVOKING the Christian spirit, but using their own local laws and language to establish truth by agreement by conscience. the process in one in Christ, though the language may vary depending on the audience or "tribe" that person represents or addresses.

There are two folds of the one flock and Jesus still governs them both as the spirit of
JUSTICE:
* the Believers under Scriptural laws (Muslims, Jews Christians and any others who invoke Biblical authority)
* the Secular Gentiles under Natural laws (Buddhists, Humanists, Constitutionalists, Nontheists / Atheists, Social Sciences, etc.)

You can still be Christian and follow the secular fold under natural laws
that is equally fulfilled in Christ Jesus. See Romans 2:14
Romans 2 14 Indeed when Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature things required by the law they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.

I happen to know enough Muslims, Atheists and "nonchristians" who live by
Restorative Justice to know this is the same spirit as Christ Jesus. We are able to forgive and receive each other "in the spirit of Christ Jesus" even though this is called Justice and Peace.

There will be righteous gentiles
who receive rebuke and seek truth to make peace, just like Christians are
supposed to follow by Matthew 18:15-20
Thus by their spirit and their fruits you shall know them.
If they do not reject Christ Jesus, if they receive all neighbors who come in the name
of Christ Jesus or Restorative Justice, then they become reconciled in Christ.
it's an ongoing process. Until the spirit of truth reconciles all tribes as one in harmony.

I believe in the end stages, it is the Gentiles who lead the way to establish truth;
so the spirit of truth is established, then the spirit of Justice or Jesus is invoked in that spirit, and then the Holy Spirit or Peace for all humanity accompanies the establishment of Justice.

So the secular gentiles play an important role in the final stages,
by using science and reason to establish truth by agreement.

Whenever I read the bible I took the gentiles to mean non Jews because the Jews had repeatedly turned away from him therefore non Jews would lead the end times. My interpretation of that was that it was just anyone but the Jews.

Yes, well now that Christ reconciles all followers with the Jewish lineage,
then this makes all believers one with the Jews and Christians under scriptural authority.

Previously in history, Gentiles referred to the Greeks who followed their natural ethics.
And it was Aquinas who reconciled the Greek ethics with church theology to prove
these were consistent, as natural laws also given by God, and was not "heresy or apostasy" coming from "outside the church or assumed not from God."

Today, more priests have followed suit by reconciling Buddhism as not against Christianity but complementary to it similar to the Greek ethics that were consistent.

And now I'm finding that Constitutional laws, also derived from natural laws,
are another language of the secular gentiles.

It seems there are as many branches of believers coming out of the Muslim/Jewish/Christian lineages as there are Secular Gentiles branching out
under the fold of the Natural Law followers.

Regardless of tribal language and local laws, the point is to be reconciled in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace, which is the meaning behind the Trinity.
Every religion or system of laws has some form of the trinity, because human nature
is body, mind, spirit (physical, mental and spiritual/collective);
so that laws or religions are used to represent the RELATIONSHIP
between the individual/physical level of life and the collective or spiritual level of life.

The central level that joins the individual with the collective,
or the physical with the spiritual, or "man with God" is
what Christ represents; and this is the connection in the Conscience
where man reconciles with man in human relations or "man reconciles with God"
on a collective scale. This is where Justice is found, within in and among us.
So that is what it means to seek to establish the governance of Justice for all humanity.

I have to agree with dilloduck. The natural law of life is greed, survival, and kill or be killed. All the good laws you me

Whenever I read the bible I took the gentiles to mean non Jews because the Jews had repeatedly turned away from him therefore non Jews would lead the end times. My interpretation of that was that it was just anyone but the Jews.

Yes, well now that Christ reconciles all followers with the Jewish lineage,
then this makes all believers one with the Jews and Christians under scriptural authority.

Previously in history, Gentiles referred to the Greeks who followed their natural ethics.
And it was Aquinas who reconciled the Greek ethics with church theology to prove
these were consistent, as natural laws also given by God, and was not "heresy or apostasy" coming from "outside the church or assumed not from God."

Today, more priests have followed suit by reconciling Buddhism as not against Christianity but complementary to it similar to the Greek ethics that were consistent.

And now I'm finding that Constitutional laws, also derived from natural laws,
are another language of the secular gentiles.

It seems there are as many branches of believers coming out of the Muslim/Jewish/Christian lineages as there are Secular Gentiles branching out
under the fold of the Natural Law followers.

Regardless of tribal language and local laws, the point is to be reconciled in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace, which is the meaning behind the Trinity.
Every religion or system of laws has some form of the trinity, because human nature
is body, mind, spirit (physical, mental and spiritual/collective);
so that laws or religions are used to represent the RELATIONSHIP
between the individual/physical level of life and the collective or spiritual level of life.

The central level that joins the individual with the collective,
or the physical with the spiritual, or "man with God" is
what Christ represents; and this is the connection in the Conscience
where man reconciles with man in human relations or "man reconciles with God"
on a collective scale. This is where Justice is found, within in and among us.
So that is what it means to seek to establish the governance of Justice for all humanity.

I have to agree with dilloduck. The natural law of life is greed, survival, and kill or be killed. All the good laws you mention come from religion.

You are only citing one side of natural laws.
What about the part of human nature that naturally sympathizes with the suffering of others; where people naturally jump to help when someone is in distress.

What about the drive in the human conscience that seeks equal justice for all humanity.

As for where the evil comes from,
when people don't forgive wrongs from the past, these can project forward and repeat.

so yes, there is that part of the human learning curve also.
It is like the stages of grief and recovery: some people are in the anger phase,
some in denial and projection of blame onto others.

But those are not the only two stages.
These too shall pass.

There is also bargaining, resolution, acceptance and peace.
You cannot be fearful and greedy and expect to get through the rest of the stages.

So at some point, people have to grow up spiritually.
And not STAY in the selfish rebellious two-year-old or the teenager phase.

That is not the whole of humanity or the entire process.

There are many spiritual "Adults and Elders" seeking to educate and mentor others
in a sustainable process of development in stages, like a school, but in life in general.

We don't have to let the terrible two's and teens destroy the school.
Yes, humanity goes through that stage, but we can learn how to mentor people through it.

So this "greedy rebellious" stage, where people form cliques cults or gangs
and attack each other for power and control, this can be managed, too.

Sympathizing with others is a natural law ?

Yes, humans by nature have a conscience that connects us with others.
The same connection can cause great sympathy or great outrage and fury
at what other people do.

We have a level of conscience that connects us in relation with others around us,
especially family relations and romantic relations that are usually the most sensitive.

Then there is a collective level of awareness of humanity and society.

So humans are constantly trying to balance the interests and priorities on our consciences between our individual control, our relations with others that are conscious, and the unconscious connections with collective society or humanity.

That's why people get so crazy. This is a lot to juggle.
And every culture has developed religions and laws to try to define the balance
between individual rights and responsibilities and the collective level of society.
And we are still arguing to this day, how much is other people's business
and how much is our own choice or responsibility. All religions have tried to map this out.

The human conscience is learned. It has nothing to do with any "law" of nature.

 

[SUPERMAN1929]

Prove it.

Whenever I read the bible I took the gentiles to mean non Jews because the Jews had repeatedly turned away from him therefore non Jews would lead the end times. My interpretation of that was that it was just anyone but the Jews.

Yes, well now that Christ reconciles all followers with the Jewish lineage,
then this makes all believers one with the Jews and Christians under scriptural authority.

Previously in history, Gentiles referred to the Greeks who followed their natural ethics.
And it was Aquinas who reconciled the Greek ethics with church theology to prove
these were consistent, as natural laws also given by God, and was not "heresy or apostasy" coming from "outside the church or assumed not from God."

Today, more priests have followed suit by reconciling Buddhism as not against Christianity but complementary to it similar to the Greek ethics that were consistent.

And now I'm finding that Constitutional laws, also derived from natural laws,
are another language of the secular gentiles.

It seems there are as many branches of believers coming out of the Muslim/Jewish/Christian lineages as there are Secular Gentiles branching out
under the fold of the Natural Law followers.

Regardless of tribal language and local laws, the point is to be reconciled in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace, which is the meaning behind the Trinity.
Every religion or system of laws has some form of the trinity, because human nature
is body, mind, spirit (physical, mental and spiritual/collective);
so that laws or religions are used to represent the RELATIONSHIP
between the individual/physical level of life and the collective or spiritual level of life.

The central level that joins the individual with the collective,
or the physical with the spiritual, or "man with God" is
what Christ represents; and this is the connection in the Conscience
where man reconciles with man in human relations or "man reconciles with God"
on a collective scale. This is where Justice is found, within in and among us.
So that is what it means to seek to establish the governance of Justice for all humanity.

I have to agree with dilloduck. The natural law of life is greed, survival, and kill or be killed. All the good laws you me

Yes, well now that Christ reconciles all followers with the Jewish lineage,
then this makes all believers one with the Jews and Christians under scriptural authority.

Previously in history, Gentiles referred to the Greeks who followed their natural ethics.
And it was Aquinas who reconciled the Greek ethics with church theology to prove
these were consistent, as natural laws also given by God, and was not "heresy or apostasy" coming from "outside the church or assumed not from God."

Today, more priests have followed suit by reconciling Buddhism as not against Christianity but complementary to it similar to the Greek ethics that were consistent.

And now I'm finding that Constitutional laws, also derived from natural laws,
are another language of the secular gentiles.

It seems there are as many branches of believers coming out of the Muslim/Jewish/Christian lineages as there are Secular Gentiles branching out
under the fold of the Natural Law followers.

Regardless of tribal language and local laws, the point is to be reconciled in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace, which is the meaning behind the Trinity.
Every religion or system of laws has some form of the trinity, because human nature
is body, mind, spirit (physical, mental and spiritual/collective);
so that laws or religions are used to represent the RELATIONSHIP
between the individual/physical level of life and the collective or spiritual level of life.

The central level that joins the individual with the collective,
or the physical with the spiritual, or "man with God" is
what Christ represents; and this is the connection in the Conscience
where man reconciles with man in human relations or "man reconciles with God"
on a collective scale. This is where Justice is found, within in and among us.
So that is what it means to seek to establish the governance of Justice for all humanity.

I have to agree with dilloduck. The natural law of life is greed, survival, and kill or be killed. All the good laws you mention come from religion.

You are only citing one side of natural laws.
What about the part of human nature that naturally sympathizes with the suffering of others; where people naturally jump to help when someone is in distress.

What about the drive in the human conscience that seeks equal justice for all humanity.

As for where the evil comes from,
when people don't forgive wrongs from the past, these can project forward and repeat.

so yes, there is that part of the human learning curve also.
It is like the stages of grief and recovery: some people are in the anger phase,
some in denial and projection of blame onto others.

But those are not the only two stages.
These too shall pass.

There is also bargaining, resolution, acceptance and peace.
You cannot be fearful and greedy and expect to get through the rest of the stages.

So at some point, people have to grow up spiritually.
And not STAY in the selfish rebellious two-year-old or the teenager phase.

That is not the whole of humanity or the entire process.

There are many spiritual "Adults and Elders" seeking to educate and mentor others
in a sustainable process of development in stages, like a school, but in life in general.

We don't have to let the terrible two's and teens destroy the school.
Yes, humanity goes through that stage, but we can learn how to mentor people through it.

So this "greedy rebellious" stage, where people form cliques cults or gangs
and attack each other for power and control, this can be managed, too.

Sympathizing with others is a natural law ?

Yes, humans by nature have a conscience that connects us with others.
The same connection can cause great sympathy or great outrage and fury
at what other people do.

We have a level of conscience that connects us in relation with others around us,
especially family relations and romantic relations that are usually the most sensitive.

Then there is a collective level of awareness of humanity and society.

So humans are constantly trying to balance the interests and priorities on our consciences between our individual control, our relations with others that are conscious, and the unconscious connections with collective society or humanity.

That's why people get so crazy. This is a lot to juggle.
And every culture has developed religions and laws to try to define the balance
between individual rights and responsibilities and the collective level of society.
And we are still arguing to this day, how much is other people's business
and how much is our own choice or responsibility. All religions have tried to map this out.

The human conscience is learned. It has nothing to do with any "law" of nature.

 

[SillyWabbit]

Emily------thousands of years have passed and humans have not even learned how to get along with each other.

I think most of us get along just fine. There are a lot of people doing horrible things, but, for the most part, we live and let live.
It doesn't make the news, but it's a fact.

 

[dilloduck]

It's been proven over and over.Children are taught what is "proper" and what is not.

 

[dilloduck]

Emily------thousands of years have passed and humans have not even learned how to get along with each other.

I think most of us get along just fine. There are a lot of people doing horrible things, but, for the most part, we live and let live.
It doesn't make the news, but it's a fact.

That all depends on the era you live in, where you live, etc etc.

 

[emilynghiem]

Whenever I read the bible I took the gentiles to mean non Jews because the Jews had repeatedly turned away from him therefore non Jews would lead the end times. My interpretation of that was that it was just anyone but the Jews.

Yes, well now that Christ reconciles all followers with the Jewish lineage,
then this makes all believers one with the Jews and Christians under scriptural authority.

Previously in history, Gentiles referred to the Greeks who followed their natural ethics.
And it was Aquinas who reconciled the Greek ethics with church theology to prove
these were consistent, as natural laws also given by God, and was not "heresy or apostasy" coming from "outside the church or assumed not from God."

Today, more priests have followed suit by reconciling Buddhism as not against Christianity but complementary to it similar to the Greek ethics that were consistent.

And now I'm finding that Constitutional laws, also derived from natural laws,
are another language of the secular gentiles.

It seems there are as many branches of believers coming out of the Muslim/Jewish/Christian lineages as there are Secular Gentiles branching out
under the fold of the Natural Law followers.

Regardless of tribal language and local laws, the point is to be reconciled in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace, which is the meaning behind the Trinity.
Every religion or system of laws has some form of the trinity, because human nature
is body, mind, spirit (physical, mental and spiritual/collective);
so that laws or religions are used to represent the RELATIONSHIP
between the individual/physical level of life and the collective or spiritual level of life.

The central level that joins the individual with the collective,
or the physical with the spiritual, or "man with God" is
what Christ represents; and this is the connection in the Conscience
where man reconciles with man in human relations or "man reconciles with God"
on a collective scale. This is where Justice is found, within in and among us.
So that is what it means to seek to establish the governance of Justice for all humanity.

I have to agree with dilloduck. The natural law of life is greed, survival, and kill or be killed. All the good laws you me

Yes, well now that Christ reconciles all followers with the Jewish lineage,
then this makes all believers one with the Jews and Christians under scriptural authority.

Previously in history, Gentiles referred to the Greeks who followed their natural ethics.
And it was Aquinas who reconciled the Greek ethics with church theology to prove
these were consistent, as natural laws also given by God, and was not "heresy or apostasy" coming from "outside the church or assumed not from God."

Today, more priests have followed suit by reconciling Buddhism as not against Christianity but complementary to it similar to the Greek ethics that were consistent.

And now I'm finding that Constitutional laws, also derived from natural laws,
are another language of the secular gentiles.

It seems there are as many branches of believers coming out of the Muslim/Jewish/Christian lineages as there are Secular Gentiles branching out
under the fold of the Natural Law followers.

Regardless of tribal language and local laws, the point is to be reconciled in the spirit of Truth Justice and Peace, which is the meaning behind the Trinity.
Every religion or system of laws has some form of the trinity, because human nature
is body, mind, spirit (physical, mental and spiritual/collective);
so that laws or religions are used to represent the RELATIONSHIP
between the individual/physical level of life and the collective or spiritual level of life.

The central level that joins the individual with the collective,
or the physical with the spiritual, or "man with God" is
what Christ represents; and this is the connection in the Conscience
where man reconciles with man in human relations or "man reconciles with God"
on a collective scale. This is where Justice is found, within in and among us.
So that is what it means to seek to establish the governance of Justice for all humanity.

I have to agree with dilloduck. The natural law of life is greed, survival, and kill or be killed. All the good laws you mention come from religion.

You are only citing one side of natural laws.
What about the part of human nature that naturally sympathizes with the suffering of others; where people naturally jump to help when someone is in distress.

What about the drive in the human conscience that seeks equal justice for all humanity.

As for where the evil comes from,
when people don't forgive wrongs from the past, these can project forward and repeat.

so yes, there is that part of the human learning curve also.
It is like the stages of grief and recovery: some people are in the anger phase,
some in denial and projection of blame onto others.

But those are not the only two stages.
These too shall pass.

There is also bargaining, resolution, acceptance and peace.
You cannot be fearful and greedy and expect to get through the rest of the stages.

So at some point, people have to grow up spiritually.
And not STAY in the selfish rebellious two-year-old or the teenager phase.

That is not the whole of humanity or the entire process.

There are many spiritual "Adults and Elders" seeking to educate and mentor others
in a sustainable process of development in stages, like a school, but in life in general.

We don't have to let the terrible two's and teens destroy the school.
Yes, humanity goes through that stage, but we can learn how to mentor people through it.

So this "greedy rebellious" stage, where people form cliques cults or gangs
and attack each other for power and control, this can be managed, too.

Sympathizing with others is a natural law ?

Yes, humans by nature have a conscience that connects us with others.
The same connection can cause great sympathy or great outrage and fury
at what other people do.

We have a level of conscience that connects us in relation with others around us,
especially family relations and romantic relations that are usually the most sensitive.

Then there is a collective level of awareness of humanity and society.

So humans are constantly trying to balance the interests and priorities on our consciences between our individual control, our relations with others that are conscious, and the unconscious connections with collective society or humanity.

That's why people get so crazy. This is a lot to juggle.
And every culture has developed religions and laws to try to define the balance
between individual rights and responsibilities and the collective level of society.
And we are still arguing to this day, how much is other people's business
and how much is our own choice or responsibility. All religions have tried to map this out.

The human conscience is learned. It has nothing to do with any "law" of nature.

Ok if you want to call it learned, then the important things still work the same way.
we learn to respond to what we agree/consent with and what we object/dissent to.
we learn to respond to others in relationships and in society.

I focus on the conscience as the slate, and then we program things on top.
Some things can be inherited from the past, such as people who are brought up
with certain racial or cultural values, or people who inherit cycles of abuse or addiction from previous generations.

Whatever you call the things that influence our behavior,
we can argue day and night "what is nature and what is nurture"

but the point remains: how we do respond and manage these biases,
conditions and conflicts we encounter in life, regardless where they originated from.

How do we balance our sense of freedom and peace, to establish justice.
How do we resolve conflicts to agree on truth so we make fair decisions together.

There are a million ways to describe how we work through these decisions.
Some people use religion and spiritual teachings, some use secular science or civil laws, and we all end up using a combination of these when dealing with diverse people.

Whether these are learned or inherited from whatever sources, we still work through a process of managing conflicting conditions to maintain peace and justice in society.

We use our conscience to sort through both the emotions and logic, the facts and beliefs, the opinions and perceptions to make decisions and sense of the world.

And as I posted before, our ability to forgive and include all information, instead of reject sources emotionally, correlates with our ability to reason through and reconcile conflicts.

 

[dilloduck]

We don't have to argue all day. There are no natural laws. Believers and athiests have both conocted their own dramas and not surprisingly they mock each other.