1896 Film of Palestine and Jerusalem.

[Roudy]

O

[

West Bank as in Judeah and Samaria of ancient Israel, the name for that land for 3000 years until the Arabs changed it to "West Bank" after 1948?

What right do Jews have to build in their ancient homeland, a land they won in a defensive war in 1967?!

Build baby build!

So when the Arabs eventually drive them out- and they will - you will be cool with that?

News flash to Joe Moron, THE ARABS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DRIVE THE JEWS OUT FOR 70 YEARS.

I'm cool with that as long as you're cool with Israel having the same ability to determine its destiny, and annexing the West Bank, land it conquered in a defensive war, and getting this BS over with once and for all. Let the games begin.

NEWSFLASH THE JEWS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DRIVE OUT THE CHRISTIANS AN MUSLIMS FOR 125 YEARS. (SINCE THE EUROPEAN JEWS BEGAN INVADING)

[

West Bank as in Judeah and Samaria of ancient Israel, the name for that land for 3000 years until the Arabs changed it to "West Bank" after 1948?

What right do Jews have to build in their ancient homeland, a land they won in a defensive war in 1967?!

Build baby build!

So when the Arabs eventually drive them out- and they will - you will be cool with that?

News flash to Joe Moron, THE ARABS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DRIVE THE JEWS OUT FOR 70 YEARS.

I'm cool with that as long as you're cool with Israel having the same ability to determine its destiny, and annexing the West Bank, land it conquered in a defensive war, and getting this BS over with once and for all. Let the games begin.

NEWSFLASH THE JEWS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DRIVE OUT THE CHRISTIANS AN MUSLIMS FOR 125 YEARS. (SINCE THE EUROPEAN JEWS BEGAN INVADING)

NEWSFLASH, THE JEWS HAVE BEEN THERE & HAD TIES TO THE LAND FOR OVER 3000 YEARS, WAY BEFORE YOUR INVADING ARABS OF (ACCORDING TO YOU) 125 YEARS AGO.

 

[toastman]

[

West Bank as in Judeah and Samaria of ancient Israel, the name for that land for 3000 years until the Arabs changed it to "West Bank" after 1948?

What right do Jews have to build in their ancient homeland, a land they won in a defensive war in 1967?!

Build baby build!

So when the Arabs eventually drive them out- and they will - you will be cool with that?

News flash to Joe Moron, THE ARABS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DRIVE THE JEWS OUT FOR 70 YEARS.

I'm cool with that as long as you're cool with Israel having the same ability to determine its destiny, and annexing the West Bank, land it conquered in a defensive war, and getting this BS over with once and for all. Let the games begin.

NEWSFLASH THE JEWS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DRIVE OUT THE CHRISTIANS AN MUSLIMS FOR 125 YEARS. (SINCE THE EUROPEAN JEWS BEGAN INVADING)

An invasion is a military offensive. I have proved this 100 times with links already, yet you still resort to lying to further your agenda.
Now, show me some proof that Jews were trying to drive out Christians and Muslims lets says 100 years ago....give me at least 2 specific incidents

 

[Roudy]

So when the Arabs eventually drive them out- and they will - you will be cool with that?

Defensive war my ass. Israel started the war and it was not pre-emptive (which is an excuse warmongering nations like Nazi Germany and Israel use to justify starting wars)

"
Israel’s attack on Egypt in June ’67 was not ‘preemptive’
by Jeremy R. Hammond | July 4, 2010

It is often claimed that Israel’s attack on Egypt that began the June 1967 “Six Day War” was a “preemptive” one. Implicit in that description is the notion that Israel was under imminent threat of an attack from Egypt. Yet this historical interpretation of the war is not sustained by the documentary record.....the CIA assessed that Nasser’s military presence in the Sinai was defensive"

Israel s attack on Egypt in June 67 was not preemptive - Foreign Policy Journal

I forgot to mention that Egypt also closed the Straits of Tiran, which itself is an act of war and Israel had said previously that doing so would be an act of aggression.

Gee Toastie,Israel are so caring and understanding to everyone except themselves.....shit how could I have been SO WRONG......I may owe you a profound apologie.........NOT..steve

WTF are you blabbing about now ? You are such a waste of space.

No.......just sarcastically reminding you how inaccurate some of your outrageous comments really are.....it was the Israelis that pre-empted and started the 6 Day War...steve,I think you have good motive but your knowledge of Israeli-Arab History has a lot to be desired

Why do you guys keep repeating this tired old garbage? What is so hard for you to understand, the Arabs by their own actions declared war and threatened the existence of Israel, and Israel responded the way it had to. The Arabs asked for it, and got what they deserved. No closing of the straight by Egypt, no five Arab nations ganging up with massive lineup of troops on Israel's borders, no Arabs getting their asses kicked. Capiche?

 

[Roudy]

[

West Bank as in Judeah and Samaria of ancient Israel, the name for that land for 3000 years until the Arabs changed it to "West Bank" after 1948?

What right do Jews have to build in their ancient homeland, a land they won in a defensive war in 1967?!

Build baby build!

So when the Arabs eventually drive them out- and they will - you will be cool with that?

News flash to Joe Moron, THE ARABS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DRIVE THE JEWS OUT FOR 70 YEARS.

I'm cool with that as long as you're cool with Israel having the same ability to determine its destiny, and annexing the West Bank, land it conquered in a defensive war, and getting this BS over with once and for all. Let the games begin.

NEWSFLASH THE JEWS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DRIVE OUT THE CHRISTIANS AN MUSLIMS FOR 125 YEARS. (SINCE THE EUROPEAN JEWS BEGAN INVADING)

An invasion is a military offensive. I have proved this 100 times with links already, yet you still resort to lying to further your agenda.
Now, show me some proof that Jews were trying to drive out Christians and Muslims lets says 100 years ago....give me at least 2 specific incidents

In fact the first recorded genocide and ethnic cleansing is when Arab animals attacked and massacred the ancient a Jews of Hebron in 1929. It was then that the Jews realized that they need to arm and defend themselves from these savages who cannot coexist with anybody.

In essence the Hebron massacre was the opening salvo of the civil war between Jews and Arabs, and as we can see the Arabs are still whining over the fact that they lost this war, not once, but many times. Low learning curve. LOL

 

[toastman]

So when the Arabs eventually drive them out- and they will - you will be cool with that?

Defensive war my ass. Israel started the war and it was not pre-emptive (which is an excuse warmongering nations like Nazi Germany and Israel use to justify starting wars)

"
Israel’s attack on Egypt in June ’67 was not ‘preemptive’
by Jeremy R. Hammond | July 4, 2010

It is often claimed that Israel’s attack on Egypt that began the June 1967 “Six Day War” was a “preemptive” one. Implicit in that description is the notion that Israel was under imminent threat of an attack from Egypt. Yet this historical interpretation of the war is not sustained by the documentary record.....the CIA assessed that Nasser’s military presence in the Sinai was defensive"

Israel s attack on Egypt in June 67 was not preemptive - Foreign Policy Journal

I forgot to mention that Egypt also closed the Straits of Tiran, which itself is an act of war and Israel had said previously that doing so would be an act of aggression.

Gee Toastie,Israel are so caring and understanding to everyone except themselves.....shit how could I have been SO WRONG......I may owe you a profound apologie.........NOT..steve

WTF are you blabbing about now ? You are such a waste of space.

No.......just sarcastically reminding you how inaccurate some of your outrageous comments really are.....it was the Israelis that pre-empted and started the 6 Day War...steve,I think you have good motive but your knowledge of Israeli-Arab History has a lot to be desired

I know Israel pre emptively struck Egypt. But what was so ridiculous about what I said about Egypt massing troops by the border, expelling peacekeeping troops, closing the straits of Tiran etc.... ?

 

[aris2chat]

Defensive war my ass. Israel started the war and it was not pre-emptive (which is an excuse warmongering nations like Nazi Germany and Israel use to justify starting wars)

"
Israel’s attack on Egypt in June ’67 was not ‘preemptive’
by Jeremy R. Hammond | July 4, 2010

It is often claimed that Israel’s attack on Egypt that began the June 1967 “Six Day War” was a “preemptive” one. Implicit in that description is the notion that Israel was under imminent threat of an attack from Egypt. Yet this historical interpretation of the war is not sustained by the documentary record.....the CIA assessed that Nasser’s military presence in the Sinai was defensive"

Israel s attack on Egypt in June 67 was not preemptive - Foreign Policy Journal

I forgot to mention that Egypt also closed the Straits of Tiran, which itself is an act of war and Israel had said previously that doing so would be an act of aggression.

Gee Toastie,Israel are so caring and understanding to everyone except themselves.....shit how could I have been SO WRONG......I may owe you a profound apologie.........NOT..steve

WTF are you blabbing about now ? You are such a waste of space.

No.......just sarcastically reminding you how inaccurate some of your outrageous comments really are.....it was the Israelis that pre-empted and started the 6 Day War...steve,I think you have good motive but your knowledge of Israeli-Arab History has a lot to be desired

I know Israel pre emptively struck Egypt. But what was so ridiculous about what I said about Egypt massing troops by the border, expelling peacekeeping troops, closing the straits of Tiran etc.... ?

Israel was outnumbered 2/1 by just the egyptians and 4/1 by all the other forces against Israel.

 

[Phoenall]

It seems to me that you are projecting. The supremacist movement I see is the Zionist one. The Muslims are fighting mostly among themselves. The Zionists are the latter day Nazis. They are holding millions of non-Jews in virtual concentration camps killing thousands of them every year or so.

The arab muslims have no legal or moral claim to the land of Palestine, they did not even want to go there until the Jews from Europe had made the desert fertile again.

As indiginous peoples they have the same claim as the Jews.

Not according to CUSTOMARY INTERNATIONAL LAW they don't, unless you can produce a treaty signed by the LEGAL LAND OWNERS giving the land to the arab muslims.

Something like this will do

Mandate For Palestine - The Legal Aspects of Jewish Rights


“In Palestine as of Right and Not on Sufferance ...”
“When it is asked what is meant by the development of the Jewish National Home in Palestine, it may be answered that it is not the imposition of a Jewish nationality upon the inhabitants of Palestine as a whole, but the further development of the existing Jewish community, with the assistance of Jews in other parts of the world, in order that it may become a centre in which the Jewish people as a whole may take, on grounds of religion and race, an interest and a pride. But in order that this community should have the best prospect of free development and provide a full opportunity for the Jewish people to display its capacities, it is essential that it should know that it is in Palestine as of right and not on sufferance.”

Winston Churchill
British Secretary of State for the Colonies
June 1922

Recognition of the Historical Connection to Palestine
Fifty-one member countries – the entire League of Nations – unanimously declared on July 24, 1922:
“Whereas recognition has been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country.”6
Unlike nation-states in Europe, modern Lebanese, Jordanian, Syrian, and Iraqi nationalities did not evolve. They were arbitrarily created by colonial powers.
In 1919, in the wake of World War I, England and France as Mandatory (e.g., official administrators and mentors) carved up the former Ottoman Empire, which had collapsed a year earlier, into geographic spheres of influence. This divided the Mideast into new political entities with new names and frontiers.7
Territory was divided along map meridians without regard for traditional frontiers (i.e., geographic logic and sustainability) or the ethnic composition of indigenous populations.8
The prevailing rationale behind these artificially created states was how they served the imperial and commercial needs of their colonial masters. Iraq and Jordan, for instance, were created as emirates to reward the noble Hashemite family from Saudi Arabia for its loyalty to the British against the Ottoman Turks during World War I, under the leadership of Lawrence of Arabia. Iraq was given to Faisal bin Hussein, son of the sheriff of Mecca, in 1918. To reward his younger brother Abdullah with an emirate, Britain cut away 77 percent of its mandate over Palestine earmarked for the Jews and gave it to Abdullah in 1922, creating the new country of Trans-Jordan or Jordan, as it was later named.
The Arabs’ hatred of the Jewish State has never been strong enough to prevent the bloody rivalries that repeatedly rock the Middle East. These conflicts were evident in the civil wars in Yemen and Lebanon, as well as in the war between Iraq and Iran, in the gassing of countless Kurds in Iraq, and in the killing of Iraqis by Iraqis.
The manner in which European colonial powers carved out political entities with little regard to their ethnic composition not only led to this inter-ethnic violence, but it also encouraged dictatorial rule as the only force capable of holding such entities together.9
The exception was Palestine, or Eretz-Israel – the territory between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, where:
“The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country [ Palestine] under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish National Home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.”10

Thanks for posting a map showing Palestine's international boundaries. And also saying that Palestine was a country.

Too bad about the Jewish Palestine though. Britain cut and ran without accomplishing that goal.

Thanks for saying it was Jewish Palestine and that the arab muslims had no right to be there

"What theft of land they did not own any"

Owned over 90% of the land per the deeds and land registries as audited by the Mandatory in 1943 and reported to the UN in 1946 in the Survey of Palestine prior to partition.

Not according to your original link that showed they only owned 0.8% while the Jews owned 4.8%. What you are trying to pass of as ownership is nothing more than land rented from others and worked for gain.

Produce the link in full and the web address so I can pick it clean and show your LIES for all to see. Or would you like to admit your LIES now regarding who owned what and were the data came from in the first place...........

Why are you making things up. Arabs owned more than 90% of the land and the Jews stole it. Here is the table. from the original link for the hundreth time. You just can't accept reality and continue with your propaganda and lies:

View attachment 32798

Yes the country of JEWISH PALESTINE until it became Eretz Ysrael, it was never to be arab muslim Palestine. Could still happen if the Palestinians don't get their act together and start talking peace and mutual borders. Israel holds all the aces so the best hope for Palestine is to fold

 

[Phoenall]

"What theft of land they did not own any"

Owned over 90% of the land per the deeds and land registries as audited by the Mandatory in 1943 and reported to the UN in 1946 in the Survey of Palestine prior to partition.

Not according to your original link that showed they only owned 0.8% while the Jews owned 4.8%. What you are trying to pass of as ownership is nothing more than land rented from others and worked for gain.

Produce the link in full and the web address so I can pick it clean and show your LIES for all to see. Or would you like to admit your LIES now regarding who owned what and were the data came from in the first place...........

Why are you making things up. Arabs owned more than 90% of the land and the Jews stole it. Here is the table. from the original link for the hundreth time. You just can't accept reality and continue with your propaganda and lies:

View attachment 32798

Were is table 1 and the link that shows you to be a fool and a LIAR, you know table 1 that says that the arabs owned 0.8% of the land and the Jews owned 4.8% of the land. Because table 1 spelt out the facts you now don't include it in your ISLAMONAZO PROPAGANDA LIES. Once table 2 is shown to be saying something different to what you are claiming this will be dropped as well. Now look closely at the bottom and tell the board why if the arabs are allegedlt supposed to own 90% of the land they don't pay 9 times more tax than the Jews, instead they pay much less than the Jews. Just another nail in the coffin of your LIES

 

[Phoenall]

[

We are talking about Israel proper. Jews make up 75% of the population. What does the West Bank and Gaza have to do with it ?

You mean the Zionists still aren't building "Settlements" in the West bank?

On Jewish owned land stole by the Palestinians in 1948/1949. Have you heard of the right of return, and do you think it only applies to arab muslims who have lived in the west bank for the last two years.

 

[Phoenall]

Defensive war my ass. Israel started the war and it was not pre-emptive (which is an excuse warmongering nations like Nazi Germany and Israel use to justify starting wars)

"
Israel’s attack on Egypt in June ’67 was not ‘preemptive’
by Jeremy R. Hammond | July 4, 2010

It is often claimed that Israel’s attack on Egypt that began the June 1967 “Six Day War” was a “preemptive” one. Implicit in that description is the notion that Israel was under imminent threat of an attack from Egypt. Yet this historical interpretation of the war is not sustained by the documentary record.....the CIA assessed that Nasser’s military presence in the Sinai was defensive"

Israel s attack on Egypt in June 67 was not preemptive - Foreign Policy Journal

I forgot to mention that Egypt also closed the Straits of Tiran, which itself is an act of war and Israel had said previously that doing so would be an act of aggression.

Gee Toastie,Israel are so caring and understanding to everyone except themselves.....shit how could I have been SO WRONG......I may owe you a profound apologie.........NOT..steve

WTF are you blabbing about now ? You are such a waste of space.

No.......just sarcastically reminding you how inaccurate some of your outrageous comments really are.....it was the Israelis that pre-empted and started the 6 Day War...steve,I think you have good motive but your knowledge of Israeli-Arab History has a lot to be desired

I know Israel pre emptively struck Egypt. But what was so ridiculous about what I said about Egypt massing troops by the border, expelling peacekeeping troops, closing the straits of Tiran etc.... ?

Not forgetting they also threatened to wipe out the Jews and destroy Israel just two days before Israel struck, which was 1 day before the planned invasion of Israel by the arab muslims

 

[P F Tinmore]

[

We are talking about Israel proper. Jews make up 75% of the population. What does the West Bank and Gaza have to do with it ?

You mean the Zionists still aren't building "Settlements" in the West bank?

On Jewish owned land stole by the Palestinians in 1948/1949. Have you heard of the right of return, and do you think it only applies to arab muslims who have lived in the west bank for the last two years.

Absolutely not.

It applies to everyone.

 

[Phoenall]

[

We are talking about Israel proper. Jews make up 75% of the population. What does the West Bank and Gaza have to do with it ?

You mean the Zionists still aren't building "Settlements" in the West bank?

On Jewish owned land stole by the Palestinians in 1948/1949. Have you heard of the right of return, and do you think it only applies to arab muslims who have lived in the west bank for the last two years.

Absolutely not.

It applies to everyone.

So you have no problem with the Jews taking it up and reclaiming their land in the west bank ?

 

[JoeB131]

[

News flash to Joe Moron, THE ARABS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DRIVE THE JEWS OUT FOR 70 YEARS.

I'm cool with that as long as you're cool with Israel having the same ability to determine its destiny, and annexing the West Bank, land it conquered in a defensive war, and getting this BS over with once and for all. Let the games begin.

200 Million Arabs vs. 6 Million Jews. Yeah, that's going to work out really well for you.

Especially when you have these young Israelis who are truly wondering what their grandparents were thinking.

You see, here's the thing I don't get. If my neighbors announced their intent to kill me at every oppurtunity, I'd seriously move out of that neighborhood.

But the Zionists... welp, nope. They are totally going to fight to the last man. And they'll hold the rest of the world hostage, like they did in 1973 when the Arabs were going to push them into the sea, and they threatened to use nukes if Nixon didn't bale them out. (The thing Tricky Dick should have been impeached for.)

Israel will be eliminated, sooner or later, and the world will cheer when it happens.

 

[JoeB131]

O

NEWSFLASH, THE JEWS HAVE BEEN THERE & HAD TIES TO THE LAND FOR OVER 3000 YEARS, WAY BEFORE YOUR INVADING ARABS OF (ACCORDING TO YOU) 125 YEARS AGO.

No, the Zionists are a bunch of Russian Europeans. They have nothing in common with the Judeans other than a Religion. The Palestinians are closer in relation to the Judeans.

 

[P F Tinmore]

[

We are talking about Israel proper. Jews make up 75% of the population. What does the West Bank and Gaza have to do with it ?

You mean the Zionists still aren't building "Settlements" in the West bank?

On Jewish owned land stole by the Palestinians in 1948/1949. Have you heard of the right of return, and do you think it only applies to arab muslims who have lived in the west bank for the last two years.

Absolutely not.

It applies to everyone.

So you have no problem with the Jews taking it up and reclaiming their land in the west bank ?

Not at all. Many Jews got screwed from places like East Jerusalem, Hebron, and even Gaza. I believe, for the most part, that they were native Palestinian Jews. When the RoR is approved, they should be able to return also.

 

[Roudy]

[

News flash to Joe Moron, THE ARABS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DRIVE THE JEWS OUT FOR 70 YEARS.

I'm cool with that as long as you're cool with Israel having the same ability to determine its destiny, and annexing the West Bank, land it conquered in a defensive war, and getting this BS over with once and for all. Let the games begin.

200 Million Arabs vs. 6 Million Jews. Yeah, that's going to work out really well for you.

Especially when you have these young Israelis who are truly wondering what their grandparents were thinking.

You see, here's the thing I don't get. If my neighbors announced their intent to kill me at every oppurtunity, I'd seriously move out of that neighborhood.

But the Zionists... welp, nope. They are totally going to fight to the last man. And they'll hold the rest of the world hostage, like they did in 1973 when the Arabs were going to push them into the sea, and they threatened to use nukes if Nixon didn't bale them out. (The thing Tricky Dick should have been impeached for.)

Israel will be eliminated, sooner or later, and the world will cheer when it happens.

Yeah, amazing, how dare the Jews defending themselves from savage IslamoNazis.

You anti Semites keep jerking off to Israel's destruction. Been keeping up with the news, have you? Muslims are too busy killing themselves by the hundreds of thousands in a sectarian war, as usual. This one may even last a few centuries, and will decimate the entire region with no real "states", infrastructure and militaries left standing.

And the only ones that will remain, will be naturally become Israel's allies.

That means Israel will still be here many generations after dogs are done peeing on your grave.

 

[Roudy]

O

NEWSFLASH, THE JEWS HAVE BEEN THERE & HAD TIES TO THE LAND FOR OVER 3000 YEARS, WAY BEFORE YOUR INVADING ARABS OF (ACCORDING TO YOU) 125 YEARS AGO.

No, the Zionists are a bunch of Russian Europeans. They have nothing in common with the Judeans other than a Religion. The Palestinians are closer in relation to the Judeans.

At this point, a majority of Israelis are Sephardic (Jews from the Middle East or descendants of) who fled Muslim savagery. The Palestinians are Arab invaders from neighboring countries and are no more natives of the land than the Jews that migrated from Europe.

 

[Roudy]

[

We are talking about Israel proper. Jews make up 75% of the population. What does the West Bank and Gaza have to do with it ?

You mean the Zionists still aren't building "Settlements" in the West bank?

On Jewish owned land stole by the Palestinians in 1948/1949. Have you heard of the right of return, and do you think it only applies to arab muslims who have lived in the west bank for the last two years.

Absolutely not.

It applies to everyone.

So you have no problem with the Jews taking it up and reclaiming their land in the west bank ?

Not at all. Many Jews got screwed from places like East Jerusalem, Hebron, and even Gaza. I believe, for the most part, that they were native Palestinian Jews. When the RoR is approved, they should be able to return also.

Yeah, after all, Muslims have shown such warmth and hospitality towards Jews and others in Palestine and elsewhere in the Middle East.

Non Muslims should truly embrace the idea of ISOP, Islamic Kaifate of Palestine, led by Hamas animals. Why not? Ha ha ha.

 

[Roudy]

I forgot to mention that Egypt also closed the Straits of Tiran, which itself is an act of war and Israel had said previously that doing so would be an act of aggression.

Gee Toastie,Israel are so caring and understanding to everyone except themselves.....shit how could I have been SO WRONG......I may owe you a profound apologie.........NOT..steve

WTF are you blabbing about now ? You are such a waste of space.

No.......just sarcastically reminding you how inaccurate some of your outrageous comments really are.....it was the Israelis that pre-empted and started the 6 Day War...steve,I think you have good motive but your knowledge of Israeli-Arab History has a lot to be desired

I know Israel pre emptively struck Egypt. But what was so ridiculous about what I said about Egypt massing troops by the border, expelling peacekeeping troops, closing the straits of Tiran etc.... ?

Not forgetting they also threatened to wipe out the Jews and destroy Israel just two days before Israel struck, which was 1 day before the planned invasion of Israel by the arab muslims

Problem with Arabs / Muslims is they never learn and think they have this God given right to keep committing atrocities against others, with no consequence.

 

[Coyote]

Ok. You're full of shit then.

You provide definitions (after much obfuscation) that sound pretty in theory. Yet you can't answer a simple direct question and give real life examples..

No obfuscation, and the descriptions I offered are well recognized as forming the distinctions between the two actions.

Like any Pallywood propagandist, though, you are a lowlife who is unwilling to apply consistent standards to evaluate actions because doing so would cause your entire lowlife house of cards to come crashing down.

More talking point insults and still unable to provide any examples of "freedom fighters".

Definitions look pretty on paper - kind of like Communism sounds great in theory. But in real life they are usually messy and far less clear cut. That's why I'm curious to see who you consider to be legitimate "freedom fighters". Why are you so unwilling to provide some examples Dogma?