2012, the issues, the politics, the cliches.

[Skynet]

The war on drugs, failure.
The war on terror, failure (or, at least, the money and lives spent has been too great for the curent outcome)

Neither of these Wars have ever actually been fought. Especially the first one. Take the leash off the US Military and the FBI/BATFE/DEA and we can easily win both of these conflicts.

Foreign Policy (doing the same thing over and over)
Immitgration Policy, failure (if in fact we have one)

A properly Isolationist and Nationalistic society cures both of these problems overnight.

Primary/Secondary Education, failure (for too many)
Higher education (too expensive for too many)

Pri/Sec Education was never intended to be a State or Federal issue. It should be handled at the LOCAL level, and predominantly structured and paid for by the parents of the children being educated.

The idea that college SHOULD BE the goal of most/all high school students is laughable. Most simply waste four years in college and come out no more prepared for a CAREER than when they went in. The expense isn't the issue, the VALUE is. $160K for a piece of worthless paper that makes one no more job-ready than when they walked out of high school? I don't think so.

the reason primary education has to be both a state and federal issue is so that education is consistent across the nation. that means you are taught the same basic information in all 50 states no matter if you are at a public or private school. if it was solely a state issue, you would have 50 different set of curriculum and standard, if it was solely a local issue you would have thousands of different standards.

and youre extremely laughable stating the college shouldnt the goal of all children, its has been consistently shown that an individual with a college education. A college master's degree is worth $1.3 million more in lifetime earnings than a high school diploma. but hey i do need someone to wash my car, mow my lawn and serve my food...

Fast Facts

 

[Barb]

It's not the politicians, folks. They are a symptom of the greater problem... the decline of the American Citizenry. The Founders limited those who were allowed to take part in government for a reason. We are now seeing exactly why that was. The unwashed masses do not have the intelligence, the reasoning, the common sense, logic, or morals and virtues required to be allowed to govern or to have a say in governance. Until we change that, this nation is as doomed as Rome was.

you're monumentally ass backwards on this. Public good is property already our own. That "our" includes the "masses." Suck it up, buttercup, but the poor in this nation are not meant to subsidize your retirement funds or stock portfolio with underpaid labor, and those who have prospered under the conditions past tax dollars have supported and paid for have every responsibility to pay their way, and pay it forward.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Progs want bigger government. Even in the face of absolute collapse.
Cons want to shrink it down to next to nothing. Even in the face that some people will suffer.

Progs run the DNC and push the RNC

Cons have just re-entered the RNC and don't exist in the DNC


we will march past the point of collapse, just as planned. The election will only decide when, if it has not occured.

I agree the 'cons', lead by Grover Norquist want to shrink government down to nothing, he has said so in nearly those exact words. I don't believe progressives want big government, especially on the federal level - though progressives employed by the Federal Governent are the exception.

There is no doubt progressives value social programs, and cons do not. But not all progressives support spending on those social programs where the bang is only a puff. Some don't work, others simply kick the can down the road; failure should not be rewareded.

As a people we need to think better beyond ideology and put our limited resources towards what works.

What doesn't work?

The war on drugs, failure.
The war on terror, failure (or, at least, the money and lives spent has been too great for the curent outcome).
Foreign Policy (doing the same thing over and over)
Immitgration Policy, failure (if in fact we have one)
Primary/Secondary Education, failure (for too many)
Higher education (too expensive for too many)

Too often the problems are not defined, and by failing to properly focus on the problem solutions are offered based on emotion, intuition, bias and self interest.

The war on drugs, failure. and unconstitutional.
The war on terror, failure (or, at least, the money and lives spent has been too great for the curent outcome). That's b/c we are fighting a PC war instead of bringing hell to our enemies.
Foreign Policy (doing the same thing over and over) Passing out bribe money to keep people acting like our allies and giving money to the same shitholes for the last 60 years has been and will be an epic waste.
Immitgration Policy, failure (if in fact we have one) It's actually very hard, and somewhat pricey to become a citizen.
Primary/Secondary Education, failure (for too many) It wasn't so bad before the DoE. Now we waste resources on useless things as an option to core subjects.
Higher education (too expensive for too many) That's b/c they know they can charge whatever they want b/c the Fed will cover 1/2 the cost in grants and the other 1/2 will be covered in loans. There is no more "Working your way through college."


Government does to much in the name of being nice or helpfull to the point it's made much of it worse.

 

[Barb]

so if I am a libertarian, what? I am in purgatory? do I care?

If you're a Libertarian you're a Liberal. I would have thought basic English Comp would have taught you that based on the base word for both terms.

Taken literally, perhaps, but in the same vein, the term conservative should not include the radicals that value social control over sound fiscal policy. They should conserve, and they do not. Poli sci speaks a whole different language than English lit.

 

[Avorysuds]

The problem is we have had only Big Government since FDR. Government shrunk a bit but has made its way back over the year’s since then.

Liberals or progressives claim we need a moderate and even claim Obama is a moderate, well then wtf is a "extreme" progressive? Bush was a Progressive liberal, it's easy to prove and if asked people would have a hard time finding even a few things about Bush that made him "conservative."

The debate today seems to be to try and make it as if we need to meet in the middle... The question is what is considered far right and far left? Most view far right as being "Run the country per the constitution of the USA." Well here's the thing, that "far right" is really moderate! We live in an extreme left country plain and simple.

You can't balance the budget by cutting all of our military while spending MORE on social stuff when military is at least in the constitution and all the social stuff isn’t. Even cutting all that military won’t balance the budget. All that stagflation, and middle class getting wiped out, that’s due to bigger Government liberal policies… all of it. As Government gets bigger the people get smaller, it has always been that way and will always be that way. Government is nothing more than a giant fucking corporation that has a huge monopoly even when their product sucks balls.

Raising taxes seems to be the war cry of *some* liberals today, not that it will even get close to paying for the interest on the debt that politicians barrow to pay the bills of programs that fail relentlessly. Think about it, if we raise taxes you don’t get “more revenue” so that you can do “more stuff.” When you raise taxes people get to do “less stuff,” and that “more revenue” won’t even cover the interest on our debt… Do you get that?

So where are the lines? What is “conservative” and what is “liberal” in today’s America?

 

[Anachronism]

Taken literally, perhaps, but in the same vein, the term conservative should not include the radicals that value social control over sound fiscal policy. They should conserve, and they do not. Poli sci speaks a whole different language than English lit.

Yes we are trying to Conserve. We're trying to Conserve and Restore a proper society. That would be one much more like the 12th thru 18th Centuries than the 20th - 21st Centuries.

 

[WillowTree]

We live in interesting times. The upcoming election will decide the quality of life for the next generation of Americans as the people will pick a new House of Representatives, one-third of the Senate and a President who will guide us until January 2017.

Since the election of Ronald Reagan our politics have been sorely divided along ideological lines, as the two major parties seek to fundamentally change America. The issues we face today have changed very little over the course of our history as a nation; today, unfortunately, the animosity amonst us maybe as severe as at anytime in our history, save for Civil War era.

Every week or so a new event clouds the landscape as the talking heads, blogosphere and 24/7 'news' issues BREAKING NEWS alerts, many times on salacious matters which have nothing to do with our real problems.

Is it possilbe for there to be general agreement on the real problems facing us today? And from there to begin to dabate potenital solutions critically, looking outside the box of ideological purity?

The real problem facing us today is that far left whackaloon lives in the wh and has gone on a massive spending spree and we need to get his ass out of there.. how'd I do?

 

[Skynet]

Taken literally, perhaps, but in the same vein, the term conservative should not include the radicals that value social control over sound fiscal policy. They should conserve, and they do not. Poli sci speaks a whole different language than English lit.

Yes we are trying to Conserve. We're trying to Conserve and Restore a proper society. That would be one much more like the 12th thru 18th Centuries than the 20th - 21st Centuries.

that would be awesome because i hate TV, cars, planes, electricity, the internet, my computer, my ipod, GPS, indoor plumbing, hot showers, refrigeration, my cell phone, professional sports, railroad, and everything else created since 1900 (and what about the 1800's? are those just the lost dark years?)

 

[Skynet]

We live in interesting times. The upcoming election will decide the quality of life for the next generation of Americans as the people will pick a new House of Representatives, one-third of the Senate and a President who will guide us until January 2017.

Since the election of Ronald Reagan our politics have been sorely divided along ideological lines, as the two major parties seek to fundamentally change America. The issues we face today have changed very little over the course of our history as a nation; today, unfortunately, the animosity amonst us maybe as severe as at anytime in our history, save for Civil War era.

Every week or so a new event clouds the landscape as the talking heads, blogosphere and 24/7 'news' issues BREAKING NEWS alerts, many times on salacious matters which have nothing to do with our real problems.

Is it possilbe for there to be general agreement on the real problems facing us today? And from there to begin to dabate potenital solutions critically, looking outside the box of ideological purity?

The real problem facing us today is that far left whackaloon lives in the wh and has gone on a massive spending spree and we need to get his ass out of there.. how'd I do?

if you remove the bailout and stimulus, Bush actually has spent more because of the wars in iraq and afghanistan that obama. where was your outrage on spending from 2000 - 2008?

 

[Anachronism]

the reason primary education has to be both a state and federal issue is so that education is consistent across the nation. that means you are taught the same basic information in all 50 states no matter if you are at a public or private school. if it was solely a state issue, you would have 50 different set of curriculum and standard, if it was solely a local issue you would have thousands of different standards.

GOOD. I wouldn't want any child of mine being taught from the same curriculum as a child in California, New York, Boston, San Francisco, or anywhere else. That's why I would never send any child of mine to a public school (or likely a private school either). They'd be homeschooled instead; so I could make sure they got a quality education without the other worthless CRAP and indoctrination.

and youre extremely laughable stating the college shouldnt the goal of all children, its has been consistently shown that an individual with a college education. A college master's degree is worth $1.3 million more in lifetime earnings than a high school diploma. but hey i do need someone to wash my car, mow my lawn and serve my food...

I wouldn't hire most recent college graduates that's I've worked with in the past decade to dig a ditch for me, nevermind do anything technical or which required the least amount of common sense, reason, logic, or any form of values. Regardless of what they're making, I find that the vast majority of them are WORTHLESS in the work environment. They've spent four years majoring in girls, beer, drugs, and fun rather than anything worthwhile.

you're monumentally ass backwards on this. Public good is property already our own. That "our" includes the "masses." Suck it up, buttercup, but the poor in this nation are not meant to subsidize your retirement funds or stock portfolio with underpaid labor, and those who have prospered under the conditions past tax dollars have supported and paid for have every responsibility to pay their way, and pay it forward.

There is no such thing as the "Public Good". Anyone who would put the good of the public before their own good is a fool and deserves to lose everything. The poor in this nation deserve nothing more than a thin pine plywood box in the potters field. They have largely EARNED their place on the economic ladder by poor choices of their own making.

 

[Wry Catcher]

i wonder if there had been a republican president, and we had no extension of unemployment benefits and no stimulus, how much higher the actual unemployment rate would have climbed to....

and where is the GOP to blame in all of this? they have been in control of the House for the last 6 months and we havent seen any major changes in unemployment or the economy, are we to say they are to blame for this as well? what happens if the debt ceiling isn't raised, are you all gonna blame Obama for that or does the GOP get the blame for blocking all legislation?

Democrats had control of the house and Senate for the 4 years prior. So by your logic they are the ones who got us into this mess.

The leadership of both parties are complicit. The whole story would name the R's who created the climate of salacious prosecution because Clinton strayed, taking our eyes off serious problems for primarily political points. And noting the R's controlled the White House and the Congress too from 2001 until 2007. There are many to blame, and it's easy to blame. Not so easy to define problems and seek solutions though.

 

[Anachronism]

that would be awesome because i hate TV, cars, planes, electricity, the internet, my computer, my ipod, GPS, indoor plumbing, hot showers, refrigeration, my cell phone, professional sports, railroad, and everything else created since 1900 (and what about the 1800's? are those just the lost dark years?)

I'd give up every single one of those things in a heartbeat to live in a society with even the least interest in morals, values, and decency rather than the morass of societal muck I am forced to deal with every single day.

 

[Skynet]

who sets the guidelines for getting a HS diploma even through homeschooling? oh thats right the state! you either follow their guidelines or you kid doesnt get a high school diploma.


your kids are also gonna have a major issue getting a decent job in the future without a college education. unless he wants to dig a ditch, work at a fast food resturant or clean my pool and mow my lawn.

well you dont have to live in this Country either, go ahead and move to somewhere that has everything you want. no one is forcing you to live here.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Progs want bigger government. Even in the face of absolute collapse.
Cons want to shrink it down to next to nothing. Even in the face that some people will suffer.

Progs run the DNC and push the RNC

Cons have just re-entered the RNC and don't exist in the DNC


we will march past the point of collapse, just as planned. The election will only decide when, if it has not occured.

I agree the 'cons', lead by Grover Norquist want to shrink government down to nothing, he has said so in nearly those exact words. I don't believe progressives want big government, especially on the federal level - though progressives employed by the Federal Governent are the exception.

There is no doubt progressives value social programs, and cons do not. But not all progressives support spending on those social programs where the bang is only a puff. Some don't work, others simply kick the can down the road; failure should not be rewareded.

As a people we need to think better beyond ideology and put our limited resources towards what works.

What doesn't work?

The war on drugs, failure.
The war on terror, failure (or, at least, the money and lives spent has been too great for the curent outcome).
Foreign Policy (doing the same thing over and over)
Immitgration Policy, failure (if in fact we have one)
Primary/Secondary Education, failure (for too many)
Higher education (too expensive for too many)

Too often the problems are not defined, and by failing to properly focus on the problem solutions are offered based on emotion, intuition, bias and self interest.

There is no doubt progressives value social programs, and cons do not.

uh huh.

so if I am a libertarian, what? I am in purgatory? do I care?

No, but you are rather irrelevant. As a Libertarian you and your kind are the archetype of an ideologue. Some of what your kind advocates (Dr. Paul, for example) make sense, other aspects are impractical at best, and some of it harmful.

 

[Avorysuds]

Taken literally, perhaps, but in the same vein, the term conservative should not include the radicals that value social control over sound fiscal policy. They should conserve, and they do not. Poli sci speaks a whole different language than English lit.

Yes we are trying to Conserve. We're trying to Conserve and Restore a proper society. That would be one much more like the 12th thru 18th Centuries than the 20th - 21st Centuries.

that would be awesome because i hate TV, cars, planes, electricity, the internet, my computer, my ipod, GPS, indoor plumbing, hot showers, refrigeration, my cell phone, professional sports, railroad, and everything else created since 1900 (and what about the 1800's? are those just the lost dark years?)

Great, a moron...

 

[Skynet]

Yes we are trying to Conserve. We're trying to Conserve and Restore a proper society. That would be one much more like the 12th thru 18th Centuries than the 20th - 21st Centuries.

that would be awesome because i hate TV, cars, planes, electricity, the internet, my computer, my ipod, GPS, indoor plumbing, hot showers, refrigeration, my cell phone, professional sports, railroad, and everything else created since 1900 (and what about the 1800's? are those just the lost dark years?)

Great, a moron...

thanks for contributing nothing to the conversation

 

[Two Thumbs]

Taken literally, perhaps, but in the same vein, the term conservative should not include the radicals that value social control over sound fiscal policy. They should conserve, and they do not. Poli sci speaks a whole different language than English lit.

Yes we are trying to Conserve. We're trying to Conserve and Restore a proper society. That would be one much more like the 12th thru 18th Centuries than the 20th - 21st Centuries.

that would be awesome because i hate TV, cars, planes, electricity, the internet, my computer, my ipod, GPS, indoor plumbing, hot showers, refrigeration, my cell phone, professional sports, railroad, and everything else created since 1900 (and what about the 1800's? are those just the lost dark years?)

a proper society has squat to do with "stuff".

 

[Avorysuds]

that would be awesome because i hate TV, cars, planes, electricity, the internet, my computer, my ipod, GPS, indoor plumbing, hot showers, refrigeration, my cell phone, professional sports, railroad, and everything else created since 1900 (and what about the 1800's? are those just the lost dark years?)

Great, a moron...

thanks for contributing nothing to the conversation

I already have, you're taking what people say way out of context as to derail the conversation.

 

[Avorysuds]

Yes we are trying to Conserve. We're trying to Conserve and Restore a proper society. That would be one much more like the 12th thru 18th Centuries than the 20th - 21st Centuries.

that would be awesome because i hate TV, cars, planes, electricity, the internet, my computer, my ipod, GPS, indoor plumbing, hot showers, refrigeration, my cell phone, professional sports, railroad, and everything else created since 1900 (and what about the 1800's? are those just the lost dark years?)

a proper society has squat to do with "stuff".

This.

 

[Anachronism]

who sets the guidelines for getting a HS diploma even through homeschooling? oh thats right the state! you either follow their guidelines or you kid doesnt get a high school diploma.

your kids are also gonna have a major issue getting a decent job in the future without a college education. unless he wants to dig a ditch, work at a fast food resturant or clean my pool and mow my lawn.

Who says they need a high school diploma. If I had the cash to be able to do it, I'd be looking at setting myself up on a piece of private property, probably in the hills of North Carolina and just basically telling society to kiss my ass entirely.

well you dont have to live in this Country either, go ahead and move to somewhere that has everything you want. no one is forcing you to live here.

Unfortunately, since this is the only country that currently allows relatively free private ownership of firearms, yes I am kind of stuck here. I've commented in the past that if most of the Middle Eastern states allowed gun ownership I'd have been gone from here two decades ago.