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That partisan observation does nothing to address the validity of Sands' conclusions.Saying a Zionist cares about Truth is as far from Truth as saying Satan is God.
That partisan observation does nothing to address the validity of Sands' conclusions.Saying a Zionist cares about Truth is as far from Truth as saying Satan is God.
So, we agreed that this thread is Palestinian propaganda trash?
Your 'comrade' (Billo) holds that Sands disputes the first (and biggest) wave of The Diaspora (following the Sack of Jerusalem in 70 AD) on the grounds - in part, at least - that insufficient infrastructure and people-mover capabilities existed in the Empire at that time, to effect such large-scale expulsions and enslavements of large numbers of Israelites.That partisan observation does nothing to address the validity of Sands' conclusions.Saying a Zionist cares about Truth is as far from Truth as saying Satan is God.
You certainly have provided nothing credible to dispute anything Sand has said, in your many uninformed and opionated and judgmental comments.
The thread here is actually addressing Israels ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, underway continuously since Israel declared herself into existence as a nation in 1948.
Indeed. The Jews managed to hold onto their dream for 1,878 years; from the Sack of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 AD, to the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. That dream is not yet fully realized but they're getting there... their goal is nearly achieved."...Dreams to return to a land one has been ethnically cleansed from never die..."
It never happened, more Zionist Mythology! These myths are debunked by yet another Israeli Professor named Shlomo Sand.
80 year old people generally remember things theywished would be. Pictures from 80 years ago normally show a bunch of ragged urchins in front of a hovel in the midst of a collection of hovels, grassless yards with stray goats and yapping mongrels. Paradise lost.80-year-old Palestinian man remembers destroyed village of his youth
BETHLEHEM (Ma'an) -- "An 80-year-old Palestinian man recalled memories of the destroyed village of his youth for the TV program, "A memory that never rusts," describing a landscape destroyed by Zionist forces in the 1948 conflict known in Arabic as the "Nakba," or catastrophe.
Jameel Deif-Allah Sawalma offered recollections of his long lost village of al-Auja, near Jaffa, before it was overtaken and destroyed."Our village plains were wide like a palm, al-Auja river was to our west and our soil was red like a beet," he said. "There were no rocks, and we planted it with watermelons, melons, beans, pumpkins, tomatoes, sesame, lupine, oranges and lemons."*Sawalma recalled fishing from the nearby river using hooks and sleeping bills to knock the fish unconscious, as well as the run back home to cook them, while fish traders used large nets to catch the famous Jaffa fish.*He recalls the two schools they had in the village, and how he studied at one until the 3rd grade. "I used to study maths, Arabic, the Quran and to this day I remember the poems I memorized," he added, and recited some of the poems he learned decades ago. Sawalmas weary memory still holds an image of how al-Auja River meandered through their lands, and how it flooded in the winter. He talked about the red brick houses of the village, the horse-drawn carriages on the dusty streets, and their wooden or metal wheels which he used to repair for a living.*
Sawalma concluded with the harsh recollections of the Nakba, when him and his family were forced out of the village and had to march to Qalqiliya and the to al-Far'a refugee camp.*A dream that never leaves him is to return to the river, fish from it and walk in the fields of his village, a place that exists only in memories now.
Around 800,000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes inside Israel during the 1948 conflict that led to the creation of the State of Israel, and today their descendants number around five million, spread across the world.
80-year-old Palestinian man remembers destroyed village of his youth | Maan News Agency
Dreams to return to a land one has been ethnically cleansed from never die.
Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity and a practice that violates intl law and a practice still ongoing in Palestine today.
80 year old people generally remember things theywished would be. Pictures from 80 years ago normally show a bunch of ragged urchins in front of a hovel in the midst of a collection of hovels, grassless yards with stray goats and yapping mongrels. Paradise lost.80-year-old Palestinian man remembers destroyed village of his youth
BETHLEHEM (Ma'an) -- "An 80-year-old Palestinian man recalled memories of the destroyed village of his youth for the TV program, "A memory that never rusts," describing a landscape destroyed by Zionist forces in the 1948 conflict known in Arabic as the "Nakba," or catastrophe.
Jameel Deif-Allah Sawalma offered recollections of his long lost village of al-Auja, near Jaffa, before it was overtaken and destroyed."Our village plains were wide like a palm, al-Auja river was to our west and our soil was red like a beet," he said. "There were no rocks, and we planted it with watermelons, melons, beans, pumpkins, tomatoes, sesame, lupine, oranges and lemons."*Sawalma recalled fishing from the nearby river using hooks and sleeping bills to knock the fish unconscious, as well as the run back home to cook them, while fish traders used large nets to catch the famous Jaffa fish.*He recalls the two schools they had in the village, and how he studied at one until the 3rd grade. "I used to study maths, Arabic, the Quran and to this day I remember the poems I memorized," he added, and recited some of the poems he learned decades ago. Sawalmas weary memory still holds an image of how al-Auja River meandered through their lands, and how it flooded in the winter. He talked about the red brick houses of the village, the horse-drawn carriages on the dusty streets, and their wooden or metal wheels which he used to repair for a living.*
Sawalma concluded with the harsh recollections of the Nakba, when him and his family were forced out of the village and had to march to Qalqiliya and the to al-Far'a refugee camp.*A dream that never leaves him is to return to the river, fish from it and walk in the fields of his village, a place that exists only in memories now.
Around 800,000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes inside Israel during the 1948 conflict that led to the creation of the State of Israel, and today their descendants number around five million, spread across the world.
80-year-old Palestinian man remembers destroyed village of his youth | Maan News Agency
Dreams to return to a land one has been ethnically cleansed from never die.
Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity and a practice that violates intl law and a practice still ongoing in Palestine today.
Very true.
Your unworthy evasion of a simple question by posing another, and your obvious and most un-scholarly confusion of The Exodus and the Diaspora, and your embarrassing assumption of a connection between the Bible and Josephus, tells the audience all that is needed, in connection with your scholarship and knowledge in matters pertaining to the Diaspora."...are you proposing to use the records..." of the Bible as proof?Are you referring to Josephus?
If you failed to serve-up any response to my Infrastructure and Logistics counterpointing, then you have, for all visible and practical intents and purposes, ignored the further defense of your position, and may be legitimately viewed as having conceded the matter.Nope. I disagree with that.Also, you have completely ignored your former 'infrastructure and logistics' rationale for denying the Diaspora.
How can you call that a 'win', when you didn't even address the evidence I provided?I will score that one as a 'win'.
"...Sands logic is pretty solid. Back in that time, there was no physical means available to move a population that size, that distance, over the desert. The logistics to cover a feat like that, didn't exist."
What innuendo and conjecture would that be, pray tell?It's a lot better than the innuendo's and conjecture you were using.Also, are you proposing to use the records (or lack of records) of Hebrew enslavement in Egypt in order to prove or disprove the Diaspora to some extent?
You got a problem with So Cal?Just another low IQ, brainwashed clone sitting on his computer in Cali reading all his anti-Jew propaganda bullshit. 100 dead Christains here, 1000 dead muslims there, another 100,000 over here, who cares...It's the Jews!...
The thread here is actually addressing Israels ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, underway continuously since Israel declared herself into existence as a nation in 1948.
The diaspora "allegedly" occurred 600 years before your maps.First, the world has to deal with Holocaust Denial, and now Diaspora Denial?
I don't think so.
We can start with the writings of Josephus and toss-in goodies like the Arch of Titus and then start branching outwards from there.
In actuality, though, if you want to play with Diaspora Denial, in the face of 1900 years of acceptance of the accounts of Josephus, you're gonna have to go it alone on that one.
My own No. 54 on this thread ( http://www.usmessageboard.com/middle-east-general/322339-80-year-old-palestinian-man-remembers-destroyed-village-of-his-youth-4.html#post8098371 ) describes a centuries-long battering of the Jews of the region in order to describe a Disapora which spanned such a timeframe.
But very large segments of the population were, indeed, subjugated and enslaved and transported at various times, and this was accomplished over the infrastructure and logistics capabilities of Antiquity.
Even merely within a Jewish-Hebrew-Israelite context we can look to the well-documented (by both sides) Babylonian Captivity in which much of the Hebrew population of the region was forcibly relocated to Babylonian territory (modern-day Iraq).
As to your support for Sands' logic pertaining to infrastructure and logistics, in denying any large-scale Disapora Event at the time of the Sack of Jerusalem (70 AD) and subsequent wars and rebellions between the two parties in the 70 years following the Sack of Jerusalem...
Behold a map of the Roman Empire in the year 70 AD; the year of the Sack of Jerusalem by Titus, and notice that Rome controlled the entire Mediterranean Basin and all travel within that basin-area at the time...
Now, behold a map of the Roman Road System (their equivalent of our Interstate System), many of whose roads may still be seen today in part, and some of whose sections are actually still in use, 1300+ years after the Fall of the Western Empire, with special notice of the Roman Road leading north towards modern-day Turkey and southwest towards Egypt and East towards Babylonia and Persia once you reached the vicinity of modern-day Turkey...
...roads on which Scores and Hundreds of Thousands of Roman Legionaries and Auxiliaries traveled extensively every year; from one end of the Empire to another; including all of the staging and logistics required to support such large-scale People-Mover Systems.
Heck, the Romans even had their own 'stagecoach' routes and services...
Now, behold a map of the Roman Trade Routes operated by the Empire at a point in time when the Mediterranean was a Roman Lake (50 BC - 250 AD); with special attention to the heavily-traveled Shipping Routes between nearby Alexandria and Rome and between nearby Tyre and Rome...
...and consider that the Roman Merchant Marine kept Rome and other large-scale Italian cities alive by transshipping unbelievably vast quantities of Egyptian Grain from a country very nearby to Israel, all the way to Rome, every year, on a regular, ongoing, daily basis.
Not to mention the vast amounts of wheat and other grain shipped to Rome by the Province of North Africa (Libya, Tunisia, etc.), which utilized a combination of Roman-owned and local-owned shipping assets to sustain this huge delivery mechanism and its intended beneficiaries.
Never mind the auxiliary merchant fleets operated by the subjected Egyptians and Tunisians and Roman Carthaginians and Phoenicians and Greeks and Cilicians and the like who all hired-out to the Romans on a regular or overflow or special-occasions basis, and who could be re-tasked and cheaply rented for transporting large numbers of highly profitable slave-stock, quickly.
With all of that massive megatransport between the African coast and Rome and other parts of Italy already in-place and fully operational during the reign of Augustus, never mind 60-70 years later, at the time of the Sack of Jerusalem.
And, of course, never mind the very real likelihood that, in addition to transporting thousands of conquered and displaced and captured Jews to Rome and its environs over these very excellent, well-supported Roman Roads and Trade Routes and Shipping... that a great many of those enslaved were shipped to much-closer regions (Egypt, Syria, Phoenicia, Cappadocia, Tunisia, Libya, Cyprus, Persia, Galatia, etc.) and sold at those destinations rather than being Road-marched or Transshipped all the way to Rome.
The Romans are admired for their Engineering and Terraforming and Hydraulics and Transport Systems and Logistics as much - more, perhaps - than for their Military Prowress; it's part of their 'rep' and their legacy. We 'moderns' arrogantly think ourselves so superior, but the Old Timers of bygone eras oftentimes were on a par with or even ahead of us in various disciplines or areas of effort, once one adjusts for differences in technology and knowledge-bases.
Sands makes some very good points and serves-up some very good conclusions.
The infrastructure / logistics argument, however, is not one of his Shining Moments...
So your "counterpoint", missed its mark.The diaspora began with the 6th century BCE conquest of the ancient Kingdom of Judah by Babylon, the destruction of the First Temple (c. 586 BCE), and the expulsion of the population, as recorded in the Bible.
That is correct.The Jewish people are the nation of Israel have been since the time of Moses
And why is that?Yeah too many liberal nutjobs there, lots seem to have some kind of affection for islamic nutjobs you'd be one of them
Boy, was that a mouthful?Your unworthy evasion of a simple question by posing another, and your obvious and most un-scholarly confusion of The Exodus and the Diaspora, and your embarrassing assumption of a connection between the Bible and Josephus, tells the audience all that is needed, in connection with your scholarship and knowledge in matters pertaining to the Diaspora.
I just did. See above.If you failed to serve-up any response to my Infrastructure and Logistics counterpointing, then you have, for all visible and practical intents and purposes, ignored the further defense of your position, and may be legitimately viewed as having conceded the matter.
Yes I did. You even made reference to it.You provided no evidence. You made a statement supportive of Sands' 'logic' (not 'evidence', but 'logic') which holds that insufficient infrastructure and logistics existed at that time in order to effect large-scale population transfers...
600 years later!My counterpointing demonstrated that such infrastructure and logistics did, indeed, exist...
You give yourself way too much credit.Your failure to effectively defend your assertion after such effective counterpointing utilizing well-documented historical fact (infrastructure and logistics capabilities) constitutes a de facto concession of the point, by any objective standards observed by rational adults.
I cut down your argument as easily as I cut down your font size.What innuendo and conjecture would that be, pray tell?
Unless, of course, you want to demonstrate to us that the Empire of 70 AD actually lacked the Roman Road System and Merchant Marine that routinely moved millions of tons of foodstuffs and trade goods and slaves, and that routinely moved scores or hundreds of thousands of Legionaries and Auxiliaries throughout the Empire.
I will assume that we are now done with this, for all intents and purposes.
Here... let me help you bail out of this one...
"That bastard Kondor wins this round."
There... done... all over.
And, although I enjoy winning as much as the next guy, there is not much enjoyment or satisfaction to be had from such an easy, slam-dunk -caliber win; more akin to stopping a sandlot ball-game due to the Slaughter Rule than anything else.
Don't like that?
Do a better job, next time.
I'm no scholar and I'm not all-that-difficult a take-down.
You'll get your turn to slam-dunk me some other day.
But today is not that day.
"...The diaspora 'allegedly' occurred 600 years before your maps..."
"...The diaspora 'allegedly' occurred 600 years before your maps..."
"...So your 'counterpoint', missed its mark."
You don't even demonstrate an understanding of the nature or parameters of the argument, with respect to ethnic cleansing of Palestine in a historical Diaspora context, subset: post Sack of Jerusalem in 70 AD - never mind scoring even a single point in that context."...I cut down your argument..."
Only in that Alternative Universe which you insist on inhabiting."...You've been bitch-slapped!"
