80-year-old Palestinian man remembers destroyed village of his youth

[Billo_Really]

Why don't you ever show us that you are also cognizant of what is happening in other places in the Middle East since you are on a Middle East forum. Are you that obsessed with Israel because of the Jews, and therefore close your eyes to what is happening elsewhere, even when Catholics like you are being murdered because of their religion?

Because I like to stay on topic!

 

[Hossfly]

First, the world has to deal with Holocaust Denial, and now Diaspora Denial?

I don't think so.

We can start with the writings of Josephus and toss-in goodies like the Arch of Titus and then start branching outwards from there.

In actuality, though, if you want to play with Diaspora Denial, in the face of 1900 years of acceptance of the accounts of Josephus, you're gonna have to go it alone on that one.

"...Furthermore, Sands logic is pretty solid. Back in that time, there was no physical means available to move a population that size, that distance, over the desert. The logistics to cover a feat like that, didn't exist."

My own No. 54 on this thread ( http://www.usmessageboard.com/middle-east-general/322339-80-year-old-palestinian-man-remembers-destroyed-village-of-his-youth-4.html#post8098371 ) describes a centuries-long battering of the Jews of the region in order to describe a Disapora which spanned such a timeframe.

But very large segments of the population were, indeed, subjugated and enslaved and transported at various times, and this was accomplished over the infrastructure and logistics capabilities of Antiquity.

Even merely within a Jewish-Hebrew-Israelite context we can look to the well-documented (by both sides) Babylonian Captivity in which much of the Hebrew population of the region was forcibly relocated to Babylonian territory (modern-day Iraq).

As to your support for Sands' logic pertaining to infrastructure and logistics, in denying any large-scale Disapora Event at the time of the Sack of Jerusalem (70 AD) and subsequent wars and rebellions between the two parties in the 70 years following the Sack of Jerusalem...

Behold a map of the Roman Empire in the year 70 AD; the year of the Sack of Jerusalem by Titus, and notice that Rome controlled the entire Mediterranean Basin and all travel within that basin-area at the time...

Now, behold a map of the Roman Road System (their equivalent of our Interstate System), many of whose roads may still be seen today in part, and some of whose sections are actually still in use, 1300+ years after the Fall of the Western Empire, with special notice of the Roman Road leading north towards modern-day Turkey and southwest towards Egypt and East towards Babylonia and Persia once you reached the vicinity of modern-day Turkey...

...roads on which Scores and Hundreds of Thousands of Roman Legionaries and Auxiliaries traveled extensively every year; from one end of the Empire to another; including all of the staging and logistics required to support such large-scale People-Mover Systems.

Heck, the Romans even had their own 'stagecoach' routes and services...

Now, behold a map of the Roman Trade Routes operated by the Empire at a point in time when the Mediterranean was a Roman Lake (50 BC - 250 AD); with special attention to the heavily-traveled Shipping Routes between nearby Alexandria and Rome and between nearby Tyre and Rome...

...and consider that the Roman Merchant Marine kept Rome and other large-scale Italian cities alive by transshipping unbelievably vast quantities of Egyptian Grain from a country very nearby to Israel, all the way to Rome, every year, on a regular, ongoing, daily basis.

Not to mention the vast amounts of wheat and other grain shipped to Rome by the Province of North Africa (Libya, Tunisia, etc.), which utilized a combination of Roman-owned and local-owned shipping assets to sustain this huge delivery mechanism and its intended beneficiaries.

Never mind the auxiliary merchant fleets operated by the subjected Egyptians and Tunisians and Roman Carthaginians and Phoenicians and Greeks and Cilicians and the like who all hired-out to the Romans on a regular or overflow or special-occasions basis, and who could be re-tasked and cheaply rented for transporting large numbers of highly profitable slave-stock, quickly.

With all of that massive megatransport between the African coast and Rome and other parts of Italy already in-place and fully operational during the reign of Augustus, never mind 60-70 years later, at the time of the Sack of Jerusalem.

And, of course, never mind the very real likelihood that, in addition to transporting thousands of conquered and displaced and captured Jews to Rome and its environs over these very excellent, well-supported Roman Roads and Trade Routes and Shipping... that a great many of those enslaved were shipped to much-closer regions (Egypt, Syria, Phoenicia, Cappadocia, Tunisia, Libya, Cyprus, Persia, Galatia, etc.) and sold at those destinations rather than being Road-marched or Transshipped all the way to Rome.

The Romans are admired for their Engineering and Terraforming and Hydraulics and Transport Systems and Logistics as much - more, perhaps - than for their Military Prowress; it's part of their 'rep' and their legacy. We 'moderns' arrogantly think ourselves so superior, but the Old Timers of bygone eras oftentimes were on a par with or even ahead of us in various disciplines or areas of effort, once one adjusts for differences in technology and knowledge-bases.

Sands makes some very good points and serves-up some very good conclusions.

The infrastructure / logistics argument, however, is not one of his Shining Moments...

All you have is references in the Bible. That's it!

Although the Book of Genesis and Book of Exodus describe a period of Hebrew servitude in ancient Egypt, more than a century of archaeological research has discovered nothing which could support its narrative elements— the four centuries sojourn in Egypt, the escape of well over a million Israelites from the Delta, or the three months journey through the wilderness to Sinai.

The Egyptian records themselves have no mention of anything recorded in Exodus, the wilderness of the southern Sinai peninsula shows no traces of a mass-migration such as Exodus describes, and virtually all the place-names mentioned, including Goshen (the area within Egypt where the Israelites supposedly lived), the store-cities of Pithom and Rameses, the site of the crossing of the Red Sea (or, more commonly among modern Biblical scholars, the Sea of Reeds), and even Mt Sinai itself, have resisted identification. Scholars who hold the Exodus to represent historical truth concede that the most the evidence can suggest is plausibility.

No scientific evidence whatsoever.

In fact, the Palestinian's are the actual decendants of the Israelites.

snopes.com: Chariot Wheels Found at the Bottom of the Red Sea

 

[Kondor3]

"...All you have is references in the Bible..."

Are you referring to Josephus?

Also, you have completely ignored your former 'infrastructure and logistics' rationale for denying the Diaspora.

In light of recent counterpointing on that score, that is wise.

I will score that one as a 'win'.

Also, are you proposing to use the records (or lack of records) of Hebrew enslavement in Egypt in order to prove or disprove the Diaspora to some extent?

 

[Hossfly]

Why don't you ever show us that you are also cognizant of what is happening in other places in the Middle East since you are on a Middle East forum. Are you that obsessed with Israel because of the Jews, and therefore close your eyes to what is happening elsewhere, even when Catholics like you are being murdered because of their religion?

Because I like to stay on topic!

Lovely.

 

[Hossfly]

Why don't you ever show us that you are also cognizant of what is happening in other places in the Middle East since you are on a Middle East forum. Are you that obsessed with Israel because of the Jews, and therefore close your eyes to what is happening elsewhere, even when Catholics like you are being murdered because of their religion?

Because I like to stay on topic!

Most of the viewers are intelligent enough to realize that the only topic you are interested in is Israel/Palestine because the Jews are involved. Whatever is happening in the Middle East appears to hold no interest to you since you have never had a post regarding any other place in the Middle East, even though so much is going on. As a Catholic, one would think that you at least would be posting about what is happening to Catholics in Syria.

CNS STORY: Pope's Syria appeal has special urgency for Catholics in Mideast

 

[Jroc]

Why don't you ever show us that you are also cognizant of what is happening in other places in the Middle East since you are on a Middle East forum. Are you that obsessed with Israel because of the Jews, and therefore close your eyes to what is happening elsewhere, even when Catholics like you are being murdered because of their religion?

Because I like to stay on topic!

Most of the viewers are intelligent enough to realize that the only topic you are interested in is Israel/Palestine because the Jews are involved. Whatever is happening in the Middle East appears to hold no interest to you since you have never had a post regarding any other place in the Middle East, even though so much is going on. As a Catholic, one would think that you at least would be posting about what is happening to Catholics in Syria.

CNS STORY: Pope's Syria appeal has special urgency for Catholics in Mideast

Just another low IQ, brainwashed clone sitting on his computer in Cali reading all his anti-Jew propaganda bullshit. 100 dead Christains here, 1000 dead muslims there, another 100,000 over here, who cares...It's the Jews!...

 

[irosie91]

the greatest horror -----that the isa-respecters face------is LITERACY There is a
lawyer who posts here who cannot sustain her theories without insisting that
Jesus----of the New Testament----spoke, read and wrote in GREEK and ARABIC

of all the developements of history-----the one developement of history
that screwed the isa-respecters and their filth------is the rabbinical dictum of
approximately 500 BC which demanded that -----ALL BOYS----regardless of
economic class------must be made literate-----in hebrew. Even I find it fascinating--
My own maternal grandfather---orphaned at age 5 ----and kinda abandoned to the
streets. ---- A kid who never spent a day in school and functionally completely
illiterate------or so I thought. Somehow, knew how to read the hebrew he
was asked to read at the Bar Mitzvah of my brother. Jesus is often represented
as "poor" ----the poor kid was born in a stable. But Jesus---2000 years ago---
was clearly LITERATE in both aramaic and hebrew. The sons of carpenters in
medieval britain -------could not read. -----even some of the kings could not read

Until very recently-----the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of muslims of the world
have been completely illiterate. -------until a few hundred years ago----same
was true of the overwhelming majority of christians

for the record-----the simple majority of muslims of the world are still illiterate---
but even the LITERATE cannot communicate with each other-----they do not
have a common language

 

[Billo_Really]

Most of the viewers are intelligent enough to realize that the only topic you are interested in is Israel/Palestine because the Jews are involved.

You keep saying that, in spite of the fact I've asked you repeatedly "why"?

Why would I be so interested in the jews?

You can't answer that question, yet you go on like you can.

Whatever is happening in the Middle East appears to hold no interest to you since you have never had a post regarding any other place in the Middle East...

And you've never started any thread where I might post a comment on that subject.

 

[Billo_Really]

Just another low IQ, brainwashed clone sitting on his computer in Cali reading all his anti-Jew propaganda bullshit. 100 dead Christains here, 1000 dead muslims there, another 100,000 over here, who cares...It's the Jews!...

You got a problem with So Cal?

 

[Billo_Really]

snopes.com: Chariot Wheels Found at the Bottom of the Red Sea

Where's the link?

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

snopes.com: Chariot Wheels Found at the Bottom of the Red Sea

Where's the link?

Even if chariot wheels were found somewhere, all that establishes is people used chariots once in Palestine.

I read of a lot of cars pulled out of rivers in America.

That proves cars have been used in America.

 

[Billo_Really]

Are you referring to Josephus?

"...are you proposing to use the records..." of the Bible as proof?

Also, you have completely ignored your former 'infrastructure and logistics' rationale for denying the Diaspora.

Nope.

In light of recent counterpointing on that score, that is wise.

I disagree with that.

I will score that one as a 'win'.

How can you call that a "win", when you didn't even address the evidence I provided?

Also, are you proposing to use the records (or lack of records) of Hebrew enslavement in Egypt in order to prove or disprove the Diaspora to some extent?

It's a lot better than the innuendo's and conjecture you were using.

 

[Billo_Really]

Even if chariot wheels were found somewhere, all that establishes is people used chariots once in Palestine.

I read of a lot of cars pulled out of rivers in America.

That proves cars have been used in America.

Were they El Camino's or Impala's?

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Are you referring to Josephus?

"...are you proposing to use the records..." of the Bible as proof?

Also, you have completely ignored your former 'infrastructure and logistics' rationale for denying the Diaspora.

Nope.

I disagree with that.

I will score that one as a 'win'.

How can you call that a "win", when you didn't even address the evidence I provided?

Also, are you proposing to use the records (or lack of records) of Hebrew enslavement in Egypt in order to prove or disprove the Diaspora to some extent?

It's a lot better than the innuendo's and conjecture you were using.

Noone denies a Jewish diaspora, what is in dispute is the Zionist Myths about it.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Are you referring to Josephus?

"...are you proposing to use the records..." of the Bible as proof?
Nope.

I disagree with that.

How can you call that a "win", when you didn't even address the evidence I provided?

Also, are you proposing to use the records (or lack of records) of Hebrew enslavement in Egypt in order to prove or disprove the Diaspora to some extent?

It's a lot better than the innuendo's and conjecture you were using.

Noone denies a Jewish diaspora, what is in dispute is the Zionist Myths about it.

Israel deliberately forgets its history

An Israeli historian suggests the diaspora was the consequence, not of the expulsion of the Hebrews from Palestine, but of proselytising across north Africa, southern Europe and the Middle Eastby Schlomo Sand

Israel deliberately forgets its history - Le Monde diplomatique - English edition

 

[Kondor3]

"...Noone denies a Jewish diaspora... "

Your 'comrade' certainly seems to be heading in that direction, as may be seen in the following excerpt...

"...Then how come there is no evidence of the diaspora?..."

The implication (to any logical mind) being: if there is no evidence (after 1900+ years!) then it never happened...

========================================

"...what is in dispute is the Zionist Myths about it."

The Zionist Movement is a relatively new thing on the world stage.

The Jews have broadly and nearly universally preserved the tradition of large-scale Expulsion from Israel-Judea for 1900+ years...

Long before Zionism or its precursors ever materialized...

Substantiated by surviving and copied and handed-down accounts and monuments of those times...

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

"...Noone denies a Jewish diaspora, what is in dispute is the Zionist Myths about it."

Your 'comrade' certainly seems to be heading in that direction, as may be seen in the following excerpt...

"...Then how come there is no evidence of the diaspora?..."

The implication (to any logical mind) being: if there is no evidence (after 1900+ years!) then it never happened...

He is addressing the lack of evidence to support the Exodus.

 

[Kondor3]

"...He is addressing the lack of evidence to support the Exodus."

But the Exodus is not the same as the Diaspora...

And he referred to the Diaspora, not The Exodus.

He also raised the matter of the records of Egypt in attempting to counterpoint the Diaspora.

He did that in Post No. 80 in this thread...

"...All you have is references in the Bible. That's it!..."

...after which he inserted a passage related to the records of Egypt and the Exodus - and this in a Diaspora -counterpointing context.

Clearly, your rather UN-scholarly 'comrade' was confusing the Exodus of the 1400-1200 BC timeframe with the Diaspora of 70 AD and beyond; some 1300-1400 years later.

I cannot defend him from such folly.

Even if it does constitute a second self-induced loss and 'clock-cleaning' within the past day or two...

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

"...He is addressing the lack of evidence to support the Exodus."

But the Exodus is not the same as the Diaspora...

And he referred to the Diaspora, not The Exodus.

He also raised the matter of the records of Egypt in attempting to counterpoint the Diaspora.

I cannot defend him from such folly.

You are the one who started trying to mix everything up here.

There are multiple Zionist Myths Shlomo Sand has exposed as myths, the myths about the Exodus, myths found in Bible stories, myths about the diaspora.

 

[Kondor3]

"...You are the one who started trying to mix everything up here..."

Mix things up? Hardly. I seek clarification and truth, as do all persons of goodwill.

"...There are multiple Zionist Myths Shlomo Sand has exposed as myths, the myths about the Exodus, myths found in Bible stories, myths about the diaspora."

Incorrect.

My own focus in all of this from the very first comment in the sequence pertains exclusively to the Diaspora, and nothing but the Diaspora.

Your attempts to further broaden and dilute this rather long-lasting sidebar, to suddenly shift things away from the Diaspora, now that things aren't going your way, is noted, and has failed, rather ignobly.

An unworthy tactic, but not unexpected.

Oh, and, for the record...

Sands has NOT exposed the tradition of the Diaspora as 'myth' or 'falsehood', although he has parroted and expanded upon the logical and worthwhile widespread-proselytizing speculation first advanced by other worthies (historians, writers, anthropologists, etc.) decades before him...

He is not the end-all be-all authority on the subject.

Other historians, Jew and Gentile alike, with little or no stake in the outcome, are equally prepared to cite support for a large-scale scattering of the Jews of Israel-Judah (The Disapora) beginning with the Sack of Jerusalem in 70 AD, which, in turn, served as a catalyzing and volume-increasing agent for the proselytizing already underway throughout the nations of that region in the centuries immediately prior-to after after The Sack in 70 AD.

If you understand the rather lowbrow and slightly vulgar but nevertheless appropo male-oriented phrase 'pissing against the wind', then you have an accurate assessment of your position in this matter.

Your boy (Sands) makes good points, but they are neither new nor authoritative nor cut in stone nor any more likely to prove accurate in toto than other related explanations.

Sands' range of points are merely one of the schools of thought which exist on the subject, plus or minus the variations, and his interpretations of fact and evidence (such as they are, at this vast distance in time and space) are merely one collection of such outputs.