8th Amendment, Cruel and Unusual Punishment; Mass Murderers

[Pop23]

I’ve never understood the mentality to do something like this. Then again, I don’t believe in kicking men when they are down, and I don’t believe in rubbing their noses in a loss at sporting events.

Perhaps I am different. But judging from the votes above, not that different so far. Most people agree that no is the right answer, and I’m sure we all have various reasons for that conclusion.

The problem with exceptions is this. Where do you draw the line? Because if history is any indication, the line will steadily move, with each exception being used to justify the next exception. We make it for mass murders, then some event is going to happen that falls one life short of the limit to be considered a “mass murder”. Well, we can’t let one life stand in the way of justice, so we’ll move the limit down just one notch.

We start out with twenty being the number to qualify for this exception. Well the guy who murdered nineteen is obviously as bad as the guy who murdered twenty. So the new exception is for nineteen, in this one case only. But the next time a guy is guilty of seventeen. How do you stand there and argue that seventeen is less evil to the families? Well we’ll make another exception. And another after that.

In time, we are arguing that a guy who was driving drunk and ran over a child should suffer the same fate, it’s only fair we say.

Exceptions to the rules are all well and good, but that doesn’t mean you change the rules.

I just used this example to explain why Artificial Intelligence can’t ever mimic human thought. You are walking across a parking lot. You stop and smash the window of a car. You reach in and unlock the door. You remove something from inside the car. You have just committed three crimes. Destruction of private property. The breaking of the window. Breaking and entering, the breaking of the window and unlocking the door. Burglary for removing the item from the car.

The item is a child. Forgotten or abandoned in the car by someone else. You just acted to save a life. You broke the law, but the common sense exception, even if it is not written into law, means your peers of the jury won’t convict you even if you are prosecuted.

It is the exceptions, the absolute violation of rules and laws but for a higher good that makes humans impossible to mimic. For every rule, or law, there is an exception. Which is why motive is the important thing in considering an action. Yes, you broke the law in getting the child out of the car. But you did so because if you had not the child may well have died.

Computers will always go psychotic when faced with this reality.

Oh, and those of you who know I condemn the police for actions like that, notice one difference. The person breaking into the car to save the life, told the truth. Yes, he did it, but he did it for this reason. When you lie to cover it up, then you have gone from a potentially good deed, to a criminal act.

The exception requires that you tell the truth. Otherwise, it is a crime.

The problems come when we write the exceptions into law, like the cops shooting people. For a very long time, the police had the requirement to actually see a gun. They had to be sure. Then it was something that looked like a gun. OK, that is a reasonable exception. No way to tell a toy gun from a real gun in an alley or hallway. Then it was a motion that could be construed by someone as a movement towards a gun. The exceptions have become the rule.

If the person made no motion, no problem. The cop thought he saw it, so that is enough. A delusional individual who sees things that aren’t actually happening is justification under the exceptions to kill someone. The exceptions have taken on a life of their own and not during a century, during my own lifetime. It only took a couple decades for the exceptions to become an asinine rule.

No. I will not support the idea that there is any exception to the prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment for some fantasy of a lunatic.

I would generally agree except that our law enforcement system is based on deterring crime to begin with.

We see nearly all the time that, when certain criminal activity increase, we increase the punishment until such a time that the activity levels off or starts going down.

Murder is incredibly hard to deter more than we already do, and mass murder even ore so. So what additionally do we do for deterrent?

 

[whitehall]

So what's the point? You want to violate the Constitution because you are particularly angry at someone who committed a capital crime? Go back to playing video games and leave political arguments to serious and sane people.

 

[Pop23]

So what's the point? You want to violate the Constitution because you are particularly angry at someone who committed a capital crime? Go back to playing video games and leave political arguments to serious and sane people.

It would help if we knew who you were responding too?

 

[HappyJoy]

Saudi Arabia has public executions.

 

[Pop23]

Saudi Arabia has public executions.

Do they have Mass Murders?

 

[SavannahMann]

I’ve never understood the mentality to do something like this. Then again, I don’t believe in kicking men when they are down, and I don’t believe in rubbing their noses in a loss at sporting events.

Perhaps I am different. But judging from the votes above, not that different so far. Most people agree that no is the right answer, and I’m sure we all have various reasons for that conclusion.

The problem with exceptions is this. Where do you draw the line? Because if history is any indication, the line will steadily move, with each exception being used to justify the next exception. We make it for mass murders, then some event is going to happen that falls one life short of the limit to be considered a “mass murder”. Well, we can’t let one life stand in the way of justice, so we’ll move the limit down just one notch.

We start out with twenty being the number to qualify for this exception. Well the guy who murdered nineteen is obviously as bad as the guy who murdered twenty. So the new exception is for nineteen, in this one case only. But the next time a guy is guilty of seventeen. How do you stand there and argue that seventeen is less evil to the families? Well we’ll make another exception. And another after that.

In time, we are arguing that a guy who was driving drunk and ran over a child should suffer the same fate, it’s only fair we say.

Exceptions to the rules are all well and good, but that doesn’t mean you change the rules.

I just used this example to explain why Artificial Intelligence can’t ever mimic human thought. You are walking across a parking lot. You stop and smash the window of a car. You reach in and unlock the door. You remove something from inside the car. You have just committed three crimes. Destruction of private property. The breaking of the window. Breaking and entering, the breaking of the window and unlocking the door. Burglary for removing the item from the car.

The item is a child. Forgotten or abandoned in the car by someone else. You just acted to save a life. You broke the law, but the common sense exception, even if it is not written into law, means your peers of the jury won’t convict you even if you are prosecuted.

It is the exceptions, the absolute violation of rules and laws but for a higher good that makes humans impossible to mimic. For every rule, or law, there is an exception. Which is why motive is the important thing in considering an action. Yes, you broke the law in getting the child out of the car. But you did so because if you had not the child may well have died.

Computers will always go psychotic when faced with this reality.

Oh, and those of you who know I condemn the police for actions like that, notice one difference. The person breaking into the car to save the life, told the truth. Yes, he did it, but he did it for this reason. When you lie to cover it up, then you have gone from a potentially good deed, to a criminal act.

The exception requires that you tell the truth. Otherwise, it is a crime.

The problems come when we write the exceptions into law, like the cops shooting people. For a very long time, the police had the requirement to actually see a gun. They had to be sure. Then it was something that looked like a gun. OK, that is a reasonable exception. No way to tell a toy gun from a real gun in an alley or hallway. Then it was a motion that could be construed by someone as a movement towards a gun. The exceptions have become the rule.

If the person made no motion, no problem. The cop thought he saw it, so that is enough. A delusional individual who sees things that aren’t actually happening is justification under the exceptions to kill someone. The exceptions have taken on a life of their own and not during a century, during my own lifetime. It only took a couple decades for the exceptions to become an asinine rule.

No. I will not support the idea that there is any exception to the prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment for some fantasy of a lunatic.

I would generally agree except that our law enforcement system is based on deterring crime to begin with.

We see nearly all the time that, when certain criminal activity increase, we increase the punishment until such a time that the activity levels off or starts going down.

Murder is incredibly hard to deter more than we already do, and mass murder even ore so. So what additionally do we do for deterrent?

Murder is not deterred. Not by punishment in prison. It can be punished, which is why it is called a Justice System, instead of a Deterrance System. Fear of consequences may prevent some from taking actions, but those consequences themselves are not. There are too many unsolved murders to even begin to claim that the punishment is a deterrent. Even if you exclude murder, you have unsolved rapes, robberies, thefts, and simple assaults out the wazoo.

Take the most common event. Traffic Citations. People buy radar detectors, because they wish to avoid the ticket. But they do not drive slower, which would theoretically deprive the police of the reason to ticket. They do not avoid speeding. Let’s be honest, I drive at the speed limit, but I am an asshole. I love watching people shout at me as they move to pass me on the roads. It infuriates them, and it has been said many times that a person driving the limit is a hazard to the roads.

Yet, the punishment does not deter the actions. People are not deterred from speeding. In fact, many states, Georgia included, have passed laws that punish people who drive the speed limit if they are not in the slowest lane, or as far to the right as possible. If I move into the “passing lane” and am only doing the speed limit, I can be given a ticket, for obeying the law on speed.

Georgia is not alone. Deterrance is a questionable technique at best. Look at the best example, the Cold War. We still have submarines out on Deterrance patrols. The idea is that they will fire their missiles, and kill the enemy all over again, if nuclear war starts. But does it really deter nuclear war? If we removed the Submarines fromt the equation, does nuclear war become a reasonable consideration?

Wars are fought for gain. If there is nothing to gain, because even if you are totally successful, you lose, then do we say that is a Deterrance or do we say it is something else.

For that matter, a Doctor Strangelove type of super bomb would be far more likely to deter aggression. A mega bomb surrounded by radioactive material that would poison the earth if the host nation is attacked. Why not save yourself a lot of money, and build a few really big bombs, that would poison the earth, rendering it unlivable, if you are attacked. That is the ultimate deterrent isn’t it?

Why don’t we? Because despite the Deterrance of the mega bomb, the truth is that we believe we can win a war, if we fight it. We have multiple warhead missiles, with pin point targeting capability, like that matters with nuclear weapons. Because we believe we can win, we can fire and take out the enemy before he can take us out. So we need weapons that hit him where it hurts, despite the fact that he has weapons that can do the same. We end up buying the same bomb four or five times, each delivery system is a little more accurate, or has a little more range.

Why didn’t the development of the submarine launched missile end it?

Punishment isn’t about deterring more crime, that is always been the excuse, and it is nonsense. It sounds like it, but people exceed the speed limit so regularly that states are passing laws to hold those who do travel at the speed limit responsible for not breaking the law on speeding. The reason that it is merely fines is because it is a tax on driving administered by the police to keep taxes low on sales, and property. It is a variation of a sin tax.

 

[HappyJoy]

Saudi Arabia has public executions.

Do they have Mass Murders?

Do they have any real freedoms?

Saudi Arabia is basically a theological dictatorship, is that what you want for the United States? I'm amazed how conservatives just want to throw it all away.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

No, absolutely no.

No matter what a person did, strapping them to a chair and making them watch Miley Cyrus twerk is just too much.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

No. Clearly that is cruel and unusual punish.

Put them in solitary confinement and keep them alive as long as you can.

Yes put them in solitary confinement and allowed them to be tortured, they deserve to suffer for several days in excruciating pain while being tortured with Spanish Inquisition methods and after that several days they should be executed and I see why nobody should give a crap about this happening to them, the same should be done with paedophiles. Re. Cruel and unusual punishment? WTF?! What about the cruel and unusual punishment they inflicted on their VICTIMS? Too much Bleeding Heart and Bedwetting about these freaks of nature and wastes of human skin. Send them to Hell when alive, red hot iron up anus etc EVERYTHING and then execute the POS and good riddance.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

No, just hang them publicly.

The Short Drop Method, that way they strangle for approx 20 minutes to 30 minutes, this crowd do need to suffer IMHO before death, it only is correct when you think about the suffering they put their victims through because they enjoyed making their victims suffer, they need a taste of their own medicine before they die. Too much Bleeding Heart and Bedwetting about mass murderers, serial killers, that man for example who beat Jeffrey Dahmer to death in prison, he should get a medal and also some time reduced for performing a valuable service ie. removing a monster like Dahmer off this planet. So many Conservatives are as Bleeding Heart about this crowd as the Leftists are "oh you must not torture them, oh you must not HURT them, that is wrong, we HAVE to be humane" fuck that, make the POS suffer and then execute them, this is why The West is seen as weak by the Islamists, because The West has become too Soft and Touchy Feely about HURTING wastes of human skin like mass murderers, serial killers and paedophiles.

 

[flewism]

No, No, they need to be convicted and executed as efficiently as due process allows, which is a hell of a lot faster than is currently being done.

 

[Marion Morrison]

No, just hang them publicly.

The Short Drop Method, that way they strangle for approx 20 minutes to 30 minutes, this crowd do need to suffer IMHO before death, it only is correct when you think about the suffering they put their victims through because they enjoyed making their victims suffer, they need a taste of their own medicine before they die. Too much Bleeding Heart and Bedwetting about mass murderers, serial killers, that man for example who beat Jeffrey Dahmer to death in prison, he should get a medal and also some time reduced for performing a valuable service ie. removing a monster like Dahmer off this planet. So many Conservatives are as Bleeding Heart about this crowd as the Leftists are "oh you must not torture them, oh you must not HURT them, that is wrong, we HAVE to be humane" fuck that, make the POS suffer and then execute them, this is why The West is seen as weak by the Islamists, because The West has become too Soft and Touchy Feely about HURTING wastes of human skin like mass murderers, serial killers and paedophiles.

I disagree, long-drop method, snap the neck--done.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

No, just hang them publicly.

The Short Drop Method, that way they strangle for approx 20 minutes to 30 minutes, this crowd do need to suffer IMHO before death, it only is correct when you think about the suffering they put their victims through because they enjoyed making their victims suffer, they need a taste of their own medicine before they die. Too much Bleeding Heart and Bedwetting about mass murderers, serial killers, that man for example who beat Jeffrey Dahmer to death in prison, he should get a medal and also some time reduced for performing a valuable service ie. removing a monster like Dahmer off this planet. So many Conservatives are as Bleeding Heart about this crowd as the Leftists are "oh you must not torture them, oh you must not HURT them, that is wrong, we HAVE to be humane" fuck that, make the POS suffer and then execute them, this is why The West is seen as weak by the Islamists, because The West has become too Soft and Touchy Feely about HURTING wastes of human skin like mass murderers, serial killers and paedophiles.

I disagree, long-drop method, snap the neck--done.

That's fast though, short drop they slowly strangle that's what they deserve, why anyone gives a crap if they suffer I don't know, considering what they put their victims through some child victims and you want to be nice and sweet and allow them a peaceful and fast death, if they raped and tortured a CHILD to death for example and you want THEM to have a peaceful and fast death? Why? Because you have been told that's the humane thing to do and to make them suffer lowers you to their level? Horsecrap, not ONE MEMBER of this forum can EVER be lowered to their level, because not ONE MEMBER of this forum is going to be able for ENJOYMENT to do the heinous and barbaric things that these wastes of human skin do.

 

[Marion Morrison]

No, just hang them publicly.

The Short Drop Method, that way they strangle for approx 20 minutes to 30 minutes, this crowd do need to suffer IMHO before death, it only is correct when you think about the suffering they put their victims through because they enjoyed making their victims suffer, they need a taste of their own medicine before they die. Too much Bleeding Heart and Bedwetting about mass murderers, serial killers, that man for example who beat Jeffrey Dahmer to death in prison, he should get a medal and also some time reduced for performing a valuable service ie. removing a monster like Dahmer off this planet. So many Conservatives are as Bleeding Heart about this crowd as the Leftists are "oh you must not torture them, oh you must not HURT them, that is wrong, we HAVE to be humane" fuck that, make the POS suffer and then execute them, this is why The West is seen as weak by the Islamists, because The West has become too Soft and Touchy Feely about HURTING wastes of human skin like mass murderers, serial killers and paedophiles.

I disagree, long-drop method, snap the neck--done.

That's fast though, short drop they slowly strangle that's what they deserve, why anyone gives a crap if they suffer I don't know, considering what they put their victims through some child victims and you want to be nice and sweet and allow them a peaceful and fast death, if they raped and tortured a CHILD to death for example and you want THEM to have a peaceful and fast death? Why? Because you have been told that's the humane thing to do and to make them suffer lowers you to their level? Horsecrap, not ONE MEMBER of this forum can EVER be lowered to their level, because not ONE MEMBER of this forum is going to be able for ENJOYMENT to do the heinous and barbaric things that these wastes of human skin do.

I can't stand to see things suffer.

Oman, if only my friends saw me typing that.

I know what they'd say.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

No, just hang them publicly.

The Short Drop Method, that way they strangle for approx 20 minutes to 30 minutes, this crowd do need to suffer IMHO before death, it only is correct when you think about the suffering they put their victims through because they enjoyed making their victims suffer, they need a taste of their own medicine before they die. Too much Bleeding Heart and Bedwetting about mass murderers, serial killers, that man for example who beat Jeffrey Dahmer to death in prison, he should get a medal and also some time reduced for performing a valuable service ie. removing a monster like Dahmer off this planet. So many Conservatives are as Bleeding Heart about this crowd as the Leftists are "oh you must not torture them, oh you must not HURT them, that is wrong, we HAVE to be humane" fuck that, make the POS suffer and then execute them, this is why The West is seen as weak by the Islamists, because The West has become too Soft and Touchy Feely about HURTING wastes of human skin like mass murderers, serial killers and paedophiles.

I disagree, long-drop method, snap the neck--done.

That's fast though, short drop they slowly strangle that's what they deserve, why anyone gives a crap if they suffer I don't know, considering what they put their victims through some child victims and you want to be nice and sweet and allow them a peaceful and fast death, if they raped and tortured a CHILD to death for example and you want THEM to have a peaceful and fast death? Why? Because you have been told that's the humane thing to do and to make them suffer lowers you to their level? Horsecrap, not ONE MEMBER of this forum can EVER be lowered to their level, because not ONE MEMBER of this forum is going to be able for ENJOYMENT to do the heinous and barbaric things that these wastes of human skin do.

I can't stand to see things suffer.

Oman, if only my friends saw me typing that.

The same with me I can't stand to see things suffer, but IMHO mass murderers, serial killers and especially paedophiles are not human in any form, they have forfeited any right to be termed Human, they are therefore to be thought of as just Objects. Personally I would agree with medically experimenting on them without anesthetic and also testing cosmetic products on them, I disagree 100% with testing those products on innocent animals, innocent animals do not deserve to be put in excruciating pain, mass murderers, serial killers and paedophiles should be used instead of the animals, especially medical experiments because at least that way those wastes of human skin would be giving something productive back to Society.

What happens in Oman? I will have to read, I think they are not as they are in Saudi Arabia.

 

[Marion Morrison]

No, just hang them publicly.

The Short Drop Method, that way they strangle for approx 20 minutes to 30 minutes, this crowd do need to suffer IMHO before death, it only is correct when you think about the suffering they put their victims through because they enjoyed making their victims suffer, they need a taste of their own medicine before they die. Too much Bleeding Heart and Bedwetting about mass murderers, serial killers, that man for example who beat Jeffrey Dahmer to death in prison, he should get a medal and also some time reduced for performing a valuable service ie. removing a monster like Dahmer off this planet. So many Conservatives are as Bleeding Heart about this crowd as the Leftists are "oh you must not torture them, oh you must not HURT them, that is wrong, we HAVE to be humane" fuck that, make the POS suffer and then execute them, this is why The West is seen as weak by the Islamists, because The West has become too Soft and Touchy Feely about HURTING wastes of human skin like mass murderers, serial killers and paedophiles.

I disagree, long-drop method, snap the neck--done.

That's fast though, short drop they slowly strangle that's what they deserve, why anyone gives a crap if they suffer I don't know, considering what they put their victims through some child victims and you want to be nice and sweet and allow them a peaceful and fast death, if they raped and tortured a CHILD to death for example and you want THEM to have a peaceful and fast death? Why? Because you have been told that's the humane thing to do and to make them suffer lowers you to their level? Horsecrap, not ONE MEMBER of this forum can EVER be lowered to their level, because not ONE MEMBER of this forum is going to be able for ENJOYMENT to do the heinous and barbaric things that these wastes of human skin do.

I can't stand to see things suffer.

Oman, if only my friends saw me typing that.

The same with me I can't stand to see things suffer, but IMHO mass murderers, serial killers and especially paedophiles are not human in any form, they have forfeited any right to be termed Human, they are therefore to be thought of as just Objects. Personally I would agree with medically experimenting on them without anesthetic and also testing cosmetic products on them, I disagree 100% with testing those products on innocent animals, innocent animals do not deserve to be put in excruciating pain, mass murderers, serial killers and paedophiles should be used instead of the animals, especially medical experiments because at least that way those wastes of human skin would be giving something productive back to Society.

What happens in Oman? I will have to read, I think they are not as they are in Saudi Arabia.

No no..it happened in my back yard.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

The Short Drop Method, that way they strangle for approx 20 minutes to 30 minutes, this crowd do need to suffer IMHO before death, it only is correct when you think about the suffering they put their victims through because they enjoyed making their victims suffer, they need a taste of their own medicine before they die. Too much Bleeding Heart and Bedwetting about mass murderers, serial killers, that man for example who beat Jeffrey Dahmer to death in prison, he should get a medal and also some time reduced for performing a valuable service ie. removing a monster like Dahmer off this planet. So many Conservatives are as Bleeding Heart about this crowd as the Leftists are "oh you must not torture them, oh you must not HURT them, that is wrong, we HAVE to be humane" fuck that, make the POS suffer and then execute them, this is why The West is seen as weak by the Islamists, because The West has become too Soft and Touchy Feely about HURTING wastes of human skin like mass murderers, serial killers and paedophiles.

I disagree, long-drop method, snap the neck--done.

That's fast though, short drop they slowly strangle that's what they deserve, why anyone gives a crap if they suffer I don't know, considering what they put their victims through some child victims and you want to be nice and sweet and allow them a peaceful and fast death, if they raped and tortured a CHILD to death for example and you want THEM to have a peaceful and fast death? Why? Because you have been told that's the humane thing to do and to make them suffer lowers you to their level? Horsecrap, not ONE MEMBER of this forum can EVER be lowered to their level, because not ONE MEMBER of this forum is going to be able for ENJOYMENT to do the heinous and barbaric things that these wastes of human skin do.

I can't stand to see things suffer.

Oman, if only my friends saw me typing that.

The same with me I can't stand to see things suffer, but IMHO mass murderers, serial killers and especially paedophiles are not human in any form, they have forfeited any right to be termed Human, they are therefore to be thought of as just Objects. Personally I would agree with medically experimenting on them without anesthetic and also testing cosmetic products on them, I disagree 100% with testing those products on innocent animals, innocent animals do not deserve to be put in excruciating pain, mass murderers, serial killers and paedophiles should be used instead of the animals, especially medical experiments because at least that way those wastes of human skin would be giving something productive back to Society.

What happens in Oman? I will have to read, I think they are not as they are in Saudi Arabia.

No no..it happened in my back yard.

What did? Are you with or sans clothing when whatever happened happened?

 

[Marion Morrison]

I disagree, long-drop method, snap the neck--done.

That's fast though, short drop they slowly strangle that's what they deserve, why anyone gives a crap if they suffer I don't know, considering what they put their victims through some child victims and you want to be nice and sweet and allow them a peaceful and fast death, if they raped and tortured a CHILD to death for example and you want THEM to have a peaceful and fast death? Why? Because you have been told that's the humane thing to do and to make them suffer lowers you to their level? Horsecrap, not ONE MEMBER of this forum can EVER be lowered to their level, because not ONE MEMBER of this forum is going to be able for ENJOYMENT to do the heinous and barbaric things that these wastes of human skin do.

I can't stand to see things suffer.

Oman, if only my friends saw me typing that.

The same with me I can't stand to see things suffer, but IMHO mass murderers, serial killers and especially paedophiles are not human in any form, they have forfeited any right to be termed Human, they are therefore to be thought of as just Objects. Personally I would agree with medically experimenting on them without anesthetic and also testing cosmetic products on them, I disagree 100% with testing those products on innocent animals, innocent animals do not deserve to be put in excruciating pain, mass murderers, serial killers and paedophiles should be used instead of the animals, especially medical experiments because at least that way those wastes of human skin would be giving something productive back to Society.

What happens in Oman? I will have to read, I think they are not as they are in Saudi Arabia.

No no..it happened in my back yard.

What did? Are you with or sans clothing when whatever happened happened?

 

[easyt65]

1) Should Mass Murderers be tortured? 2) In Public?

IMHO, NO.

Tortured? No. Executed? ABSOLUTELY! I believe witnessing a criminal put to death in an extreme public viewing would get the idea across that if you commit a crime punishable by the death penalty you will be put to death. Such a display just might save lives.

I also believe that POLITICIANS at local, state, and federal levels caught in corruption, defrauding their constituents, or acts like being found to have engaged in sexual misconduct...to use tax dollars to silence your victims...should be extremely publicly shamed - publicly humiliated, rebuked, shamed, stripped of their pensions and assets resulting from ill-gotten wealth at the expense of their constituents...

 

[easyt65]

I would be willing to listen to the argument for sentencing a murderer who is given the death penalty having to die in the same exact way in which they killed their victim....

Shot in the chest...Hammer to the skull...wood chipper....forced to endure the same unimaginable fear, pain, and suffering their victim was forced to experience before they died.