A bit more of your merciful god.

[Blues Man]

Note that he did not say, "I survived a horrible event". He said, "If I had my way...."

So you don't think the death of a spouse is a horrible event? And that he didn't kill himself means he obviously survived.

But you can substitute anything.

Survive a plane crash and it's just shit luck not divine intervention.

 

[Meriweather]

''Feelings''. Lots of people have feelings about supernaturalism. Not a reliable indicator.

Not "feelings". Try to accept the truth as I describe it. Are "feelings" as close as you can get to what I am saying? If so, that tells me your limitations. They do not describe mine.

 

[Blues Man]

I have a great imagination. I have also had the experience with God. How did you reach the conclusion I cannot tell the difference between imagination and an experience with God? You don't know me. You have not had a like experience. Yet you are the expert on me, on what I imagine and on my experiences?

Why is it so hard for you to accept what I describe?

Imaginations can seem real to people.

The brain is quite susceptible to it as well.

And I accept you had some kind of meaningful experience that you label as a god experience. That however does not prove that any gods exist but just that you think they do.

I've had episodes of what I call epiphany while meditating for extended periods. But those were all generated by my mind and not some divine outside force. The fact that they were generated in my mind in no way makes them less real.

 

[Meriweather]

But you can substitute anything.

Was I the one substituting or building on what he said? You are the one who added that people credit God when they survive a horrible event. You are the one who imagined he was at the point of suicide. A wish to be with a loved one who has passed on can remain a deep wish without it being suicidal...

 

[Meriweather]

And I accept you had some kind of meaningful experience that you label as a god experience. That however does not prove that any gods exist but just that you think they do.

No. You change my experience into something you can accept. Note, I never said an experience "proves" anything. There is much more to proving something than 'experience'. I was not in a science lab when the event happened. Nor could I measure it any way or repeat the event to record and measure a comparison between the first one.

 

[Blues Man]

Was I the one substituting or building on what he said? You are the one who added that people credit God when they survive a horrible event. You are the one who imagined he was at the point of suicide. A wish to be with a loved one who has passed on can remain a deep wish without it being suicidal...

So the statement

"If I had my way I'd have been dead"

Doesn't imply suicidal ideation?

I think it does and I bet a lot of psychiatrists would as well.

And even without the assumption of suicidal thoughts the death of a spouse is a horrible event.

 

[Meriweather]

I've had episodes of what I call epiphany while meditating for extended periods. But those were all generated by my mind and not some divine outside force. The fact that they were generated in my mind in no way makes them less real.

Sigh. I have had epiphanies as well. Not the same. At all. As you say, epiphanies are often internal, from either mind and/or spirit. (One's own spirit.)

 

[Blues Man]

No. You change my experience into something you can accept. Note, I never said an experience "proves" anything. There is much more to proving something than 'experience'. I was not in a science lab when the event happened. Nor could I measure it any way or repeat the event to record and measure a comparison between the first one.

Why would I accept that gods interact personally with people when there is no proof that gods exist or not?

You believe it was a god experience and I acknowledged that belief.

 

[Blues Man]

Sigh. I have had epiphanies as well. Not the same. At all. As you say, epiphanies are often internal, from either mind and/or spirit. (One's own spirit.)

There is no mind body duality.

What people call spirit is just a function of the mind and the mind is a an artifact of the brain and the brain is of the body.

 

[Meriweather]

"If I had my way I'd have been dead"

Doesn't imply suicidal ideation?

When someone reads, "If I had my way, I'd have been dead" does not imply anything. However, from that statement people can infer additional meaning(s).

My point is that I tend to stick with what someone actually writes. All I have from his statement is a wish he could have died as the same time as his wife, or perhaps even instead of his wife. But I don't know. If he wishes to share more, we will know then. At the moment, I see no value into jumping to other conclusions, only to accept his statement as written.

He may come back in and say, "Blues Man has it exactly right. He understands the situation perfectly." But I will wait and see. Possibilities are not actualities.

 

[Blues Man]

When someone reads, "If I had my way, I'd have been dead" does not imply anything. However, from that statement people can infer additional meaning(s).

My point is that I tend to stick with what someone actually writes. All I have from his statement is a wish he could have died as the same time as his wife, or perhaps even instead of his wife. But I don't know. If he wishes to share more, we will know then. At the moment, I see no value into jumping to other conclusions, only to accept his statement as written.

He may come back in and say, "Blues Man has it exactly right. He understands the situation perfectly." But I will wait and see. Possibilities are not actualities.

Sticking to the literal removes all nuance from the written word and is very boring.

 

[Meriweather]

Why would I accept that gods interact personally with people when there is no proof that gods exist or not?

Obviously you want physical proof. When I was little I heard biblical stories that testified to God's interactions with humans. I wanted to be that close to God. Maybe that is what is meant by "the faith of a child". I did not demand my parents take me to a science lab and provide me with "proof". I took it on faith that people did have interactions with God, that the words "Seek and you will find" were truth and I went off on my own search.

I am not providing you with proof, but with testimony. You can do with it as you will, and you have. You have reached a conclusion that is comfortable to you. You say, It is her imagination. It is a realistic in her mind only.

The reason I give this testimony is in case someone else may wish to begin their own search to give any faith they have a boost or an encouraging nudge that God can be found. If I found Him, so can anyone. Keep in mind it may take years. A decade and even more.

You have no wish for such a search, and you have no faith it would succeed. And that is fine and fair. But it is unfair to change my testimony and water it down so that it suits you.

 

[Meriweather]

Sticking to the literal removes all nuance from the written word and is very boring.

I did not find the words, "I wish I had died" at all boring. I did not need to dress it up to make it more interesting to me. Those words brought it home, all on their own.

 

[Hollie]

Not "feelings". Try to accept the truth as I describe it. Are "feelings" as close as you can get to what I am saying? If so, that tells me your limitations. They do not describe mine.

Your feelings or experiences with a God don't represent a reliable basis for me to accept it as truth. Why should I abandon objectivity?

Lots of people claiming to have had godly experiences have had those experiences with gods very different from yours. People claim to have had experiences with space aliens. I don't immediately presume those experiences to be true.

 

[Meriweather]

Lots of people claiming to have had godly experiences have had those experiences with gods very different from yours.

Exactly. Also different times, different places, different people.

 

[Meriweather]

People claim to have had experiences with space aliens

I have never wanted to meet a space alien, so I have never spent any time or effort on it. And without my own thorough investigations, I certainly haven't--and won't--search out people on line to tell them their experience is all in their minds and imaginations.

 

[Blues Man]

Obviously you want physical proof. When I was little I heard biblical stories that testified to God's interactions with humans. I wanted to be that close to God. Maybe that is what is meant by "the faith of a child". I did not demand my parents take me to a science lab and provide me with "proof". I took it on faith that people did have interactions with God, that the words "Seek and you will find" were truth and I went off on my own search.

I am not providing you with proof, but with testimony. You can do with it as you will, and you have. You have reached a conclusion that is comfortable to you. You say, It is her imagination. It is a realistic in her mind only.

The reason I give this testimony is in case someone else may wish to begin their own search to give any faith they have a boost or an encouraging nudge that God can be found. If I found Him, so can anyone. Keep in mind it may take years. A decade and even more.

You have no wish for such a search, and you have no faith it would succeed. And that is fine and fair. But it is unfair to change my testimony and water it down so that it suits you.

I didn't change a single word of your statements.

I am more drawn to the nontheistic philosophies because I never really got into mysticism and the supernatural.

I don't have to imagine that I can reach a state of what Taoists call flow because it is not only observable but it is learnable.

I don't have to take a person's word on what Buddhists call enlightenment because the way to it is not only clearly laid out but anyone can learn the way and experience it themselves.

There is no separation of the person any part of the universe. There is no mind/ body or body/ spirit dualism but rather the realization that nothing separates anyone from all things.

Dualistic thinking leads to conflict. Once you name the good you create the bad and you have conflict.

 

[Blues Man]

I did not find the words, "I wish I had died" at all boring. I did not need to dress it up to make it more interesting to me. Those words brought it home, all on their own.

Funny how you want to stay literal but you misquote the statement.

 

[Hollie]

Exactly. Also different times, different places, different people.

Exactly. So apparently we are to accept all claims to peoples' experiences with various gods, space aliens, etc., as true.

Does that mean you accept the Hindu gods are as true as yours?

Do you find it curious that a Hindu will have experiences with those geographically, culturally appropriate Hindu gods as you have experiences with your geographically, culturally appropriate Christian gods?

Just a coincidence or do the gods claim turf, kinda' like the Crips and Bloods.

 

[Meriweather]

Exactly. So apparently we are to accept all claims to peoples' experiences with various gods, space aliens, etc., as true.

While that may be apparent to you, it not to me. What I said is that I have no interest, no knowledge, have done no research on space aliens. Therefore, I will not go to an online site and tell people who say they have, it is all imagination or in their own mind. Nor will I tell them what any reading material they may reference what that material "really means".