"A free thinker is Satan's slave"

[koshergrl]

And people who don't learn to swim will drown if they fall in the water.

Is that the fault of those who observe they are at risk of drowning?

If one observes that drowning occurs when one doesn't know how to swim and falls in the water, does that mean the people who make that observation are *forcing* swimming lessons on the non-swimmers?

Nope.

 

[G.T.]

And people who don't learn to swim will drown if they fall in the water.

Is that the fault of those who observe they are at risk of drowning?

If one observes that drowning occurs when one doesn't know how to swim and falls in the water, does that mean the people who make that observation are *forcing* swimming lessons on the non-swimmers?

Nope.

Fear of drowning is how I learned to swim. My grandfather grabbed me by my arm-pit, and tossed me into the deep end.

Fear of going to hell is how I gather many people dip their toes into Christianity. What if: Hell --- is a hefty proposition. That's not deniable.

 

[koshergrl]

Yes but fear of a consequence is not indicative of a lack of freedom, nor is it evidence that you are being *forced* to take action to avoid the negative consequence.

PS..people don't fear hell if they don't believe in God. So really, you have to believe in the existence of God before you can fear hell.

 

[Newby]

No, I really don't know what you mean? What lapse are you referring too? And if I am too stupid to know what you mean, then I guess you better spell it out because you're not being very clear here. So, to what are you referring?

Non-Christians go to Hell. Christians who cease to be Christians are non-Christians and therefore go to Hell. That's all I'm talking about.

But your logic makes no sense... if I was a christian, but 'think freely' and decide that it's a bunch of hogwash, I therefore do not believe in a place called 'hell' anymore, therefore it is not an impediment from me quitting Christianity. So, there is no consequence if I no longer believe and I am therefore 'free' to leave. So your point that we can't freely make the choice or we'll go to hell is just stupid. The only way that happens is if you quit Christianity but still believe in it's doctrine? What sense would that make?

 

[G.T.]

Yes but fear of a consequence is not indicative of a lack of freedom, nor is it evidence that you are being *forced* to take action to avoid the negative consequence.

PS..people don't fear hell if they don't believe in God. So really, you have to believe in the existence of God before you can fear hell.

Your p.s. is irrelevant in regards to believing in other Religions, though, and also irrelevant to those who don't know if they believe or not. The fear can easily and I'm sure does easily coax people into the Religion.

 

[Newby]

Yes but fear of a consequence is not indicative of a lack of freedom, nor is it evidence that you are being *forced* to take action to avoid the negative consequence.

PS..people don't fear hell if they don't believe in God. So really, you have to believe in the existence of God before you can fear hell.

Exactly, they seem to miss that point...

 

[G.T.]

No, I really don't know what you mean? What lapse are you referring too? And if I am too stupid to know what you mean, then I guess you better spell it out because you're not being very clear here. So, to what are you referring?

Non-Christians go to Hell. Christians who cease to be Christians are non-Christians and therefore go to Hell. That's all I'm talking about.

But your logic makes no sense... if I was a christian, but 'think freely' and decide that it's a bunch of hogwash, I therefore do not believe in a place called 'hell' anymore, therefore it is not an impediment from me quitting Christianity. So, there is no consequence if I no longer believe and I am therefore 'free' to leave. So your point that we can't freely make the choice or we'll go to hell is just stupid. The only way that happens is if you quit Christianity but still believe in it's doctrine? What sense would that make?

Wrong - because people who have not accepted "Christ" are not Christians, but those unsure still have an inclination of "maybe maybe not" thus have same said inclination of hell's existence.

 

[Newby]

Yes but fear of a consequence is not indicative of a lack of freedom, nor is it evidence that you are being *forced* to take action to avoid the negative consequence.

PS..people don't fear hell if they don't believe in God. So really, you have to believe in the existence of God before you can fear hell.

Your p.s. is irrelevant in regards to believing in other Religions, though, and also irrelevant to those who don't know if they believe or not. The fear can easily and I'm sure does easily coax people into the Religion.

Seems like a personal problem to me, and has nothing to do with Christians in general. People can fear many things, every person has to deal with them on their own, in their own way.

 

[G.T.]

Yes but fear of a consequence is not indicative of a lack of freedom, nor is it evidence that you are being *forced* to take action to avoid the negative consequence.

PS..people don't fear hell if they don't believe in God. So really, you have to believe in the existence of God before you can fear hell.

Your p.s. is irrelevant in regards to believing in other Religions, though, and also irrelevant to those who don't know if they believe or not. The fear can easily and I'm sure does easily coax people into the Religion.

Seems like a personal problem to me, and has nothing to do with Christians in general. People can fear many things, every person has to deal with them on their own, in their own way.

That's a cop out to the actual point.

 

[Newby]

Non-Christians go to Hell. Christians who cease to be Christians are non-Christians and therefore go to Hell. That's all I'm talking about.

But your logic makes no sense... if I was a christian, but 'think freely' and decide that it's a bunch of hogwash, I therefore do not believe in a place called 'hell' anymore, therefore it is not an impediment from me quitting Christianity. So, there is no consequence if I no longer believe and I am therefore 'free' to leave. So your point that we can't freely make the choice or we'll go to hell is just stupid. The only way that happens is if you quit Christianity but still believe in it's doctrine? What sense would that make?

Wrong - because people who have not accepted "Christ" are not Christians, but those unsure still have an inclination of "maybe maybe not" thus have same said inclination of hell's existence.

Personal choice, everyone makes their own minds up on what they believe or don't believe and acts accordingly, whether it's religious doctrine or something else in their lives.

 

[Newby]

Your p.s. is irrelevant in regards to believing in other Religions, though, and also irrelevant to those who don't know if they believe or not. The fear can easily and I'm sure does easily coax people into the Religion.

Seems like a personal problem to me, and has nothing to do with Christians in general. People can fear many things, every person has to deal with them on their own, in their own way.

That's a cop out to the actual point.

How so? What's your resolution for those people? For christians to give up their belief that there is a hell?

 

[G.T.]

But your logic makes no sense... if I was a christian, but 'think freely' and decide that it's a bunch of hogwash, I therefore do not believe in a place called 'hell' anymore, therefore it is not an impediment from me quitting Christianity. So, there is no consequence if I no longer believe and I am therefore 'free' to leave. So your point that we can't freely make the choice or we'll go to hell is just stupid. The only way that happens is if you quit Christianity but still believe in it's doctrine? What sense would that make?

Wrong - because people who have not accepted "Christ" are not Christians, but those unsure still have an inclination of "maybe maybe not" thus have same said inclination of hell's existence.

Personal choice, everyone makes their own minds up on what they believe or don't believe and acts accordingly, whether it's religious doctrine or something else in their lives.

Umm, yea, and the threat of eternal hell if you're accidentally wrong isn't a factor

 

[Newby]

Wrong - because people who have not accepted "Christ" are not Christians, but those unsure still have an inclination of "maybe maybe not" thus have same said inclination of hell's existence.

Personal choice, everyone makes their own minds up on what they believe or don't believe and acts accordingly, whether it's religious doctrine or something else in their lives.

Umm, yea, and the threat of eternal hell if you're accidentally wrong isn't a factor

So, you've just decided that you're going to hell because you're not a christian? That's the outcome of your train of thought.

 

[G.T.]

Seems like a personal problem to me, and has nothing to do with Christians in general. People can fear many things, every person has to deal with them on their own, in their own way.

That's a cop out to the actual point.

How so? What's your resolution for those people? For christians to give up their belief that there is a hell?

No, to submit to the point that Hell is a threat, and threats are used as an axiom for controlling behavior. The fact that you two skirt that and act as if it isn't so is disengenuous.

 

[Si modo]

Yes but fear of a consequence is not indicative of a lack of freedom, nor is it evidence that you are being *forced* to take action to avoid the negative consequence.

PS..people don't fear hell if they don't believe in God. So really, you have to believe in the existence of God before you can fear hell.

Your p.s. is irrelevant in regards to believing in other Religions, though, and also irrelevant to those who don't know if they believe or not. The fear can easily and I'm sure does easily coax people into the Religion.

I understand, thus my acceptance of the fact that I don't need religion to be faithful or spiritual.

 

[G.T.]

Personal choice, everyone makes their own minds up on what they believe or don't believe and acts accordingly, whether it's religious doctrine or something else in their lives.

Umm, yea, and the threat of eternal hell if you're accidentally wrong isn't a factor

So, you've just decided that you're going to hell because you're not a christian? That's the outcome of your train of thought.

No.

Let me walk you through it really slow.

you're a "maybe christianity is true, maybe it isn't" person.

you read text and learn if you dont accept Christ, you go to hell for eternity.

you fear that hell MIGHT BE.

thus, you accept christ.

that is a means of behavior control, and works very well on the gullible.

 

[uscitizen]

Guess it depends on how you define 'lapse' doesn't it?

No more Clinton's philandering depended on the meaning of "is." The fact remains that traditional Christians believe that non-Christians go to Hell and are tortured forever. That means they believe what they believe under threat of force. And that means in turn that they are not free.

No, it doesn't. There are natural consequences to all behavior. Just because I know if I jump off a cliff I will be splattered on the rocks doesn't mean I'm not free to do it if I so please.

According to you there's no freedom to act if there is a negative consequence...and that's a sign of anti-intellectualism (or straight up stupidity). You don't know how to think, and you don't understand what you do ponder.

But if you kill women and children becuase god told you to you will enter into heaven?

 

[Newby]

That's a cop out to the actual point.

How so? What's your resolution for those people? For christians to give up their belief that there is a hell?

No, to submit to the point that Hell is a threat, and threats are used as an axiom for controlling behavior. The fact that you two skirt that and act as if it isn't so is disengenuous.

If anyone is 'controled' by that then they are mindless idiots. I make the assumption that most mature intelligent adults can study something, decide if they agree with it or not, and on that basis, accept it or reject it. I'm not skirting anything, if you're a Christian and you believe the christian doctrine, then you are saved. If you're not, and you don't believe, then it doesn't matter to you one way or the other.

 

[G.T.]

How so? What's your resolution for those people? For christians to give up their belief that there is a hell?

No, to submit to the point that Hell is a threat, and threats are used as an axiom for controlling behavior. The fact that you two skirt that and act as if it isn't so is disengenuous.

If anyone is 'controled' by that then they are mindless idiots. I make the assumption that most mature intelligent adults can study something, decide if they agree with it or not, and on that basis, accept it or reject it. I'm not skirting anything, if you're a Christian and you believe the christian doctrine, then you are saved. If you're not, and you don't believe, then it doesn't matter to you one way or the other.

Yea, and if you don't know either way then you're threatened with "believe or go to hell." Fact.

 

[koshergrl]

No more Clinton's philandering depended on the meaning of "is." The fact remains that traditional Christians believe that non-Christians go to Hell and are tortured forever. That means they believe what they believe under threat of force. And that means in turn that they are not free.

No, it doesn't. There are natural consequences to all behavior. Just because I know if I jump off a cliff I will be splattered on the rocks doesn't mean I'm not free to do it if I so please.

According to you there's no freedom to act if there is a negative consequence...and that's a sign of anti-intellectualism (or straight up stupidity). You don't know how to think, and you don't understand what you do ponder.

But if you kill women and children becuase god told you to you will enter into heaven?

I don't speak for God, bigot.