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My whole argument might be summed up as this....There are old testament christians (the ones that dragon calls traditional or fundamentalist, whatever you want to call it, I think we all know what it is), and there are new testament christians, who follow the new way that was established by Jesus (grace). The Old testament is there as a historical reference to give context to the coming of Jesus, but Jesus broke the sabbath, so that we could get over our dogmatic ways.
Ummmm...........hate to tell you, but the first 5 books of the Bible are what the Jews referred to as the Torah, and the rest of the OT is simply a history of the Jewish people.
Your "OT Christians" would actually be Jews.
Wow.
You really don't have much of an understanding of fundamentalists or OT Christians.
I disagree with all of it.
My whole argument might be summed up as this....There are old testament christians (the ones that dragon calls traditional or fundamentalist, whatever you want to call it, I think we all know what it is), and there are new testament christians, who follow the new way that was established by Jesus (grace). The Old testament is there as a historical reference to give context to the coming of Jesus, but Jesus broke the sabbath, so that we could get over our dogmatic ways.
Ummmm...........hate to tell you, but the first 5 books of the Bible are what the Jews referred to as the Torah, and the rest of the OT is simply a history of the Jewish people.
Your "OT Christians" would actually be Jews.
You are right the "OT Christians" are essentially following Judaism (maybe that is why so many of them associate themselves with the jews so much). But any christian that doesn't follow the teaching of Jesus first and foremost is fooled and is essentially spreading OT ideas, the same OT ideas that Jesus came to brake down.
I disagree with all of it.
I'm sure you do, but do you care to share with me why you disagree with what i'm saying.
I think it would be good to go back and look at the original post.That's a billboard making the rounds, allegedly put up by various churches. I can't verify that it isn't a hoax and it may be. But whether or not any churches have actually displayed that billboard, that IS the thinking of many conservative Christians. I've seen it expressed by certain posters here.
Dragon is making a point that any reasonable christian would agree with, many christians do not think freely. But lack of freethinking is not a monopoly held by christians. Correlation does not prove causation. If you are an ignorant christian who can't think for yourself is it christianity's fault? NO. It is the fault of the person for not being a freethinker.
You make an excellent point here, by pointing out the differences between Jesus and the fallible nature of the church and christians. Many christians do not fully understand how radical Jesus was. He was persecuted by the church for crying out loud, for not following their dogma.
God (or for the atheists, Nature) most certainly created us to be free and to think freely. But freethinking is a neutral term. I could think freely about helping out at the local food bank, or I could think freely about killing somebody. Therefore, I do not see why a christian would believe that the neutral act of thinking freely would qualify someone as a heretic.
Freedom means nothing if it is not freedom to sin. Traditional Christianity is opposed to sin. Therefore, traditional Christianity is opposed to freedom.
It is raining outside means it is cloudy. It is cloudy outside. Therefore, it must be raining.
One final note...Freedom means nothing if it is not freedom to sin or not sin.
Jesus wasn't radical at all. He fulfilled the law. The pharisees didn't believe he was the Messiah. It wasn't about him being radical, it was about them not recognizing him. He was a rabbi...a teacher, and he was recognized as such by the church. They had him killed because they resented the fact that he took THEM to task, and because his existence and fulfillment of the law challenged their authority. It wasn't because he acted radically. Radicalism implies departure from the law...which he never did.
So, because the Jews don't recognize Jesus as the Messiah, that means they're all going to hell? Really?
Because I seem to remember a story about a guy named Abraham who was blessed by God, and all his lineage as well, which is why the Jews are God's Chosen. And, I don't think God is going to break His covenant with the Jews. Besides, Jesus didn't come to replace the law, but rather to EXPAND on it.
Jesus wasn't radical at all. He fulfilled the law. The pharisees didn't believe he was the Messiah. It wasn't about him being radical, it was about them not recognizing him. He was a rabbi...a teacher, and he was recognized as such by the church. They had him killed because they resented the fact that he took THEM to task, and because his existence and fulfillment of the law challenged their authority. It wasn't because he acted radically. Radicalism implies departure from the law...which he never did.
My whole argument might be summed up as this....There are old testament christians (the ones that dragon calls traditional or fundamentalist, whatever you want to call it, I think we all know what it is), and there are new testament christians, who follow the new way that was established by Jesus (grace). The Old testament is there as a historical reference to give context to the coming of Jesus, but Jesus broke the sabbath, so that we could get over our dogmatic ways.
Ummmm...........hate to tell you, but the first 5 books of the Bible are what the Jews referred to as the Torah, and the rest of the OT is simply a history of the Jewish people.
Your "OT Christians" would actually be Jews.
Lack of thinking freely is indeed not a Christian monopoly. There are dogmas and dogmatists in other religions as well. Muslims are especially bad about this.
However, insofar as it occurs among Christians and with respect to Christian dogma, it IS Christianity's fault. Or rather, it's the fault of dogmatic belief in a Christian context.
Lack of thinking freely is indeed not a Christian monopoly. There are dogmas and dogmatists in other religions as well. Muslims are especially bad about this.
However, insofar as it occurs among Christians and with respect to Christian dogma, it IS Christianity's fault. Or rather, it's the fault of dogmatic belief in a Christian context.
Lack of thinking freely is indeed not a Christian monopoly. There are dogmas and dogmatists in other religions as well. Muslims are especially bad about this.
However, insofar as it occurs among Christians and with respect to Christian dogma, it IS Christianity's fault. Or rather, it's the fault of dogmatic belief in a Christian context.
You yourself distinguish the difference between dogmatic christianity and jesus in the OP. I call myself a christian, but I don't like the fundamentalist any more than you do. But lumping it all together and saying "its christianity's fault" is pigeon holing non dogmatic christians. You seem to know the difference between the two but then lump them all together at the same time.
If you want to make a point about fundamentalist then call it that, but don't stereotype christian into one group, you are farrrr to liberal for that.
Lack of thinking freely is indeed not a Christian monopoly. There are dogmas and dogmatists in other religions as well. Muslims are especially bad about this.
However, insofar as it occurs among Christians and with respect to Christian dogma, it IS Christianity's fault. Or rather, it's the fault of dogmatic belief in a Christian context.
You yourself distinguish the difference between dogmatic christianity and jesus in the OP. I call myself a christian, but I don't like the fundamentalist any more than you do. But lumping it all together and saying "its christianity's fault" is pigeon holing non dogmatic christians. You seem to know the difference between the two but then lump them all together at the same time.
If you want to make a point about fundamentalist then call it that, but don't stereotype christian into one group, you are farrrr to liberal for that.
Sorry, but there are Christians on here who say that all Christians are the same.
According to them, all that's required is to be "saved".
Lack of thinking freely is indeed not a Christian monopoly. There are dogmas and dogmatists in other religions as well. Muslims are especially bad about this.
However, insofar as it occurs among Christians and with respect to Christian dogma, it IS Christianity's fault. Or rather, it's the fault of dogmatic belief in a Christian context.
Do you ever add anything of note to any conversation?
We all know what your opinion is. You don't have to keep harping on it. At this point, feel free to move forward with scholarly argument, or sit in the corner and jabber at yourself. You're the only one interested anymore in what you're saying.
