A Good Definition of Treason

[glockmail]

gosh...please show me where I ever told him he couldn't answer your question?

Look, I realize that you're going through some emotional difficulties, being a stressed out emotioanl liberal and all, but why not just let the guy explain himself?

 

[maineman]

So which of the 54 reputable sources that Mauro cites would you chose to believe?

reputable ?????

 

[glockmail]

reputable ?????

So none of those sources are reputable according to you. Is that your position?

 

[maineman]

So none of those sources are reputable according to you. Is that your position?

did I say that?

I already pointed out the fact that in those footnotes you listed, there were no facts detailing Saddam helping Osama. And many of them are from defectors whose reasons for telling the truth are not as compelling as their reasons to spin a convincing yarn.... many of those sources are single sourced.... observations that are contradicted by other sources which you conveniently neglect to display.

Like I said....if I posted a lengthy treatise from moveon.org, I doubt you would consider the sources listed therein any more reputable than I do yours.....

that and you still have not shown one FACT that would show Saddam HELPING AL Qaeda.

 

[glockmail]

did I say that?

I already pointed out the fact that in those footnotes you listed, there were no facts detailing Saddam helping Osama. And many of them are from defectors whose reasons for telling the truth are not as compelling as their reasons to spin a convincing yarn.... many of those sources are single sourced.... observations that are contradicted by other sources which you conveniently neglect to display.

Like I said....if I posted a lengthy treatise from moveon.org, I doubt you would consider the sources listed therein any more reputable than I do yours.....

that and you still have not shown one FACT that would show Saddam HELPING AL Qaeda.

This post is completely without intellectual honesty.

I'll ask a simple question for a second time. Are any of the references cited reputable, in your opinion?

 

[maineman]

This post is completely without intellectual honesty.

I'll ask a simple question for a second time. Are any of the references cited reputable, in your opinion?

reputable? perhaps.... infallible, confirmable, necessarily FACTUAL, hell no.

So... once again...you got any FACTS that PROVE that Saddam HELPED Osama?

For example: do you have a satellite photograph that shows Saddam and Osama on the side of the road next to Osama's car and the car has a flat tire and you can clearly see in the photo that Saddam is HELPING him change the flat? Do you have anything of any substance? Don't you think that if any of the footnotes you presented were smoking guns of factual evidence of any solid undeniable, clearly provable, assistance from Osama to Al Qaeda that the RNC would have pummeled the airwaves with it? But no....it's on MILNET and it's in a piece written by a rightwing hack...and that is your FACTS?

 

[glockmail]

reputable? perhaps.... infallible, confirmable, necessarily FACTUAL, hell no.

So... once again...you got any FACTS that PROVE that Saddam HELPED Osama?

For example: do you have a satellite photograph that shows Saddam and Osama on the side of the road next to Osama's car and the car has a flat tire and you can clearly see in the photo that Saddam is HELPING him change the flat? Do you have anything of any substance? Don't you think that if any of the footnotes you presented were smoking guns of factual evidence of any solid undeniable, clearly provable, assistance from Osama to Al Qaeda that the RNC would have pummeled the airwaves with it? But no....it's on MILNET and it's in a piece written by a rightwing hack...and that is your FACTS?

Dumb, da dumb dumb.

 

[Annie]

reputable? perhaps.... infallible, confirmable, necessarily FACTUAL, hell no.

So... once again...you got any FACTS that PROVE that Saddam HELPED Osama?

For example: do you have a satellite photograph that shows Saddam and Osama on the side of the road next to Osama's car and the car has a flat tire and you can clearly see in the photo that Saddam is HELPING him change the flat? Do you have anything of any substance? Don't you think that if any of the footnotes you presented were smoking guns of factual evidence of any solid undeniable, clearly provable, assistance from Osama to Al Qaeda that the RNC would have pummeled the airwaves with it? But no....it's on MILNET and it's in a piece written by a rightwing hack...and that is your FACTS?

Is that what it would take to get your to agree that entering the Iraq war was good? You can't see the broader picture, regarding Iran, Israel, SA? i doubt that.

 

[maineman]

Dumb, da dumb dumb.

at a loss for words? would that that were true!

 

[glockmail]

at a loss for words? would that that were true!

Nice syntax. Have some more salt.

 

[maineman]

Is that what it would take to get your to agree that Iraq war was good? You can't see the broader picture, regarding Iran, Israel, SA? i doubt that.

The broader picture, from my experienced perspective, is that the war in Iraq has hurt our cause. Our enemiess are islamic extremists who are of salafist, wahabbist philosophies. Our real enemies. Our real enemies are not sunni baathists and they are not even persian shiite theocrats.... We need to remember who attacked us and who would attack us again. We have clearly put fighting Islamic extremism and fighting the causes of Islamic extremism on the back burner while we keep trying to reenact the PNAC vision for the middle east.

Saddam was not a nice guy at all, but he did a great job in keeping those sorts of fellows out of Iraq. He did a great job at keeping Iraqi sunnis and shiites from slaughtering each other..and he did a great job at acting as a foil for Iranian regional hegemony. Getting rid of Saddam has exacerbated all of those problems. The situation that happened in Lebanon last year was as a direct result of our Iraq occupation. Iran's stock in the Islamic world has grown tremendously as ours has plummeted. Hezbollah flexing its muscles in Lebanon is Iran flexing ITS muscles in the region. The sectarian carnage we have unwittingly set in motion in Iraq has sent shockwaves throughout the arab world and even the King of Jordan predicted that the violence will spread to Palestine and Lebanon in earnest within a year...

and throughout all of this, Al Qaeda has NOT been the focus of our war efforts and it always should have been. We have a middle east where the street is much more radical and much more virulently anti-American than it was before this ill advised invasion, conquest and occupation. We have Al Qaeda every bit as strong - and relatively unscathed - as it was on 9/11/01. We have suffered over 26 thousand dead and wounded..we have flushed a trillion dollars down the toilet with NOTHING positive to show for it.... and we are no closer to solving the chronic problem of islamic extremism than we were the day before we were attacked.

 

[maineman]

Nice syntax. Have some more salt.

eat shit

 

[Annie]

The broader picture, from my experienced perspective, is that the war in Iraq has hurt our cause. Our enemiess are islamic extremists who are of salafist, wahabbist philosophies. Our real enemies. Our real enemies are not sunni baathists and they are not even persian shiite theocrats.... We need to remember who attacked us and who would attack us again. We have clearly put fighting Islamic extremism and fighting the causes of Islamic extremism on the back burner while we keep trying to reenact the PNAC vision for the middle east.

Saddam was not a nice guy at all, but he did a great job in keeping those sorts of fellows out of Iraq. He did a great job at keeping Iraqi sunnis and shiites from slaughtering each other..and he did a great job at acting as a foil for Iranian regional hegemony. Getting rid of Saddam has exacerbated all of those problems. The situation that happened in Lebanon last year was as a direct result of our Iraq occupation. Iran's stock in the Islamic world has grown tremendously as ours has plummeted. Hezbollah flexing its muscles in Lebanon is Iran flexing ITS muscles in the region. The sectarian carnage we have unwittingly set in motion in Iraq has sent shockwaves throughout the arab world and even the King of Jordan predicted that the violence will spread to Palestine and Lebanon in earnest within a year...

and throughout all of this, Al Qaeda has NOT been the focus of our war efforts and it always should have been. We have a middle east where the street is much more radical and much more virulently anti-American than it was before this ill advised invasion, conquest and occupation. We have Al Qaeda every bit as strong - and relatively unscathed - as it was on 9/11/01. We have suffered over 26 thousand dead and wounded..we have flushed a trillion dollars down the toilet with NOTHING positive to show for it.... and we are no closer to solving the chronic problem of islamic extremism than we were the day before we were attacked.

I do hear what you are saying. I just wonder if you are putting blinders on regarding the ability of the enemy to also find the way to hit us? You respond as if all islamic areas were free and able to decide like us. Not so, which you already know.

Problem is, by legitimizing them, we cut off our chances of really doing so, when they might deserve it.

 

[maineman]

I do hear what you are saying. I just wonder if you are putting blinders on regarding the ability of the enemy to also find the way to hit us? You respond as if all islamic areas were free and able to decide like us. Not so, which you already know.

Problem is, by legitimizing them, we cut off our chances of really doing so, when they might deserve it.

I certainly do not underestimate our enemy...which is why the war in Iraq is so infuriatingly frustrating for me...we are wasting so much time and money and life and limb doing something that has little to no negative impact on our enemy and only serves to further destablize a region teetering on the brink of total chaos.

When I lived in the middle east, most muslims were certainly not as free to be able to participate in their governance as we are....but also...most were NOT filled with hate and distrust for America... we have totally destroyed what minimal goodwill we ever had with the arab street and that will work against us invariably.

The war against islamic extremism cannot be a war of guns and bullets and bombs, but it has to be a war of ideas that we must win...it has to be a war where we honestly and sincerely attempt to understand the root causes of the socio-economic despair and powerlessness and inequity that are the breeding grounds of the islamic extremists of tomorrow.

The war in Iraq is hurting us.... it is hurting our credibility in the world, it is sapping our resources and talent that we desperately need to fight the real enemy.

 

[Annie]

I certainly do not underestimate our enemy...which is why the war in Iraq is so infuriatingly frustrating for me...we are wasting so much time and money and life and limb doing something that has little to no negative impact on our enemy and only serves to further destablize a region teetering on the brink of total chaos.

When I lived in the middle east, most muslims were certainly not as free to be able to participate in their governance as we are....but also...most were NOT filled with hate and distrust for America... we have totally destroyed what minimal goodwill we ever had with the arab street and that will work against us invariably.

The war against islamic extremism cannot be a war of guns and bullets and bombs, but it has to be a war of ideas that we must win...it has to be a war where we honestly and sincerely attempt to understand the root causes of the socio-economic despair and powerlessness and inequity that are the breeding grounds of the islamic extremists of tomorrow.

The war in Iraq is hurting us.... it is hurting our credibility in the world, it is sapping our resources and talent that we desperately need to fight the real enemy.

I'm not trying to be oppositional, but did it ever occur to you that the concepts might be right, though prosecuted wrong? I believe that is what I've been trying to say the past 9 months or so?

 

[glockmail]

....and throughout all of this, Al Qaeda has NOT been the focus of our war efforts and it always should have been. .....

You seem to forget about The Connection.

 

[glockmail]

eat s--t

Eat salt?

 

[maineman]

I'm not trying to be oppositional, but did it ever occur to you that the concepts might be right, though prosecuted wrong? I believe that is what I've been trying to say the past 9 months or so?

I understand...but I firmly believe that the concept was ill-advised. Saddam stood as a strong secular baathist blockade between Iran and the rest of the middle east and he stood as a strong secular block against Al Qaeda and it's increased influence. Removing him has, IMHO, been detrimental to the fight against our true enemies.

 

[maineman]

You seem to forget about The Connection.

oh yeah... the milnet tinfoil hat stuff....you're right.I did forget about it....kinda like I forget about the urine I flush down the pot.

 

[Annie]

I understand...but I firmly believe that the concept was ill-advised. Saddam stood as a strong secular baathist blockade between Iran and the rest of the middle east and he stood as a strong secular block against Al Qaeda and it's increased influence. Removing him has, IMHO, been detrimental to the fight against our true enemies.

You may be proven correct, given GW's record. On the other hand, I think the concept was correct, and the follow up should be stronger, alot stronger.