Zone1 A Major Difference of the Catholic Faith

[hadit]

Is obedience to Christ necessary? What did he command? Did we feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, etc.? Did we discern the will of God and follow it? What talents were we given? How many will we return to the one who loaned them to us?

Catholics believe so wholeheartedly in Christ, his words, the way he lived, that the present life is devoted to him and his Way of obedience to the Father even unto death, that it never occurs to us that we should wait until we die and are in heaven before we follow Christ with our whole heart, whole mind, whole soul. The kingdom is here and now and continues in the afterlife. We don't have to wait for the afterlife.


"Boasting" is another mirage. Catholics remember clearly that we are not to let our left hand know what our right hand is doing. On the other hand, city lights on a hillside cannot be hidden--which may be why so many toss "earning" and "boasting" at those Kingdom/city lights. All are most welcome in this kingdom; no need to stand outside with suspicious minds.

And Protestants believe the very same things. Where the disagreement comes in is the statements from some Catholics who insist that works are necessary for salvation, when Scripture says they are not. The thief on the cross had absolutely NOTHING to offer, yet Christ took him to Paradise that very day. Hear me, works are necessary for the following reasons:

1. To demonstrate our faith. Faith without works is dead, because faith NECESSARILY results in good works. Show me your faith without works and I'll show you my faith by my works.
2. To follow Christ's commands. He obviously commands us to make disciples, to show His love, to care for the less fortunate, all of those things.

The problem comes in when people claim they are Christians because they do good works, and ignore what Christ wants to do in their hearts, ignore what the Spirit is calling them to do, live outwardly "good" lives while continuing to revel in sin. Having a form of godliness, they deny the power thereof.

BTW, it's human nature to boast. Don't tell me that many Catholics do not feel superior to others because they do good deeds. That's why God set it up that way, so that no one can claim to be better than anyone else.

 

[Meriweather]

Where the disagreement comes in is the statements from some Catholics who insist that works are necessary for salvation, when Scripture says they are not.

Catholics believe and experience the Kingdom of God, that Kingdom of salvation right here and right now. And that is not sitting on the couch waiting for death. It is living THIS life in the ways Christ taught. While some may be "sitting on the couch" (so-to-speak) awaiting death and seeing Catholics as toiling away, this is not what is going on. Catholics are diving into the glory of salvation, its graces, and its joy. For Catholics, salvation is not sitting on a couch awaiting the afterlife. Salvation is HERE. Salvation is NOW. Salvation is a way of LIVING life. What you see is not work, it is salvation at play.

The problem comes in when people claim they are Christians because they do good works, and ignore what Christ wants to do in their hearts, ignore what the Spirit is calling them to do, live outwardly "good" lives while continuing to revel in sin. Having a form of godliness, they deny the power thereof.

Christians are those who follow Christ, not good works.

BTW, it's human nature to boast. Don't tell me that many Catholics do not feel superior to others because they do good deeds. That's why God set it up that way, so that no one can claim to be better than anyone else.

Here is the reality.

Teach: No way does one end up feeling superior. Feeling like a failure is more accurate because one has Christ's example of great teaching, being a great teacher and we are about at ankle height compared to where he is.

Care for the sick and elderly: Christ could offer healing, could have people leaping. By comparison, we offer companionship and do not see people leaping, but on good days, a smile.

Bible Study: Guess how much we have to learn, how awkward it is putting what is learned into practice, incorporating it into daily life.

March for Life: So much sorrow and grief. Abuse sometimes.

Doing good deeds the right way and maybe see people coming away meek and lowly...and lucky to achieve that level. Not much to boast about. Basically, it is putting oneself in the daily, everyday life that is our gift. Christ and the holy Spirit are our strength; otherwise we are puddles.

 

[hadit]

Catholics believe and experience the Kingdom of God, that Kingdom of salvation right here and right now. And that is not sitting on the couch waiting for death. It is living THIS life in the ways Christ taught. While some may be "sitting on the couch" (so-to-speak) awaiting death and seeing Catholics as toiling away, this is not what is going on. Catholics are diving into the glory of salvation, its graces, and its joy. For Catholics, salvation is not sitting on a couch awaiting the afterlife. Salvation is HERE. Salvation is NOW. Salvation is a way of LIVING life. What you see is not work, it is salvation at play.

Agreed.

Christians are those who follow Christ, not good works.

Agreed.

Here is the reality.

Teach: No way does one end up feeling superior. Feeling like a failure is more accurate because one has Christ's example of great teaching, being a great teacher and we are about at ankle height compared to where he is.

Care for the sick and elderly: Christ could offer healing, could have people leaping. By comparison, we offer companionship and do not see people leaping, but on good days, a smile.

Bible Study: Guess how much we have to learn, how awkward it is putting what is learned into practice, incorporating it into daily life.

March for Life: So much sorrow and grief. Abuse sometimes.

Doing good deeds the right way and maybe see people coming away meek and lowly...and lucky to achieve that level. Not much to boast about. Basically, it is putting oneself in the daily, everyday life that is our gift. Christ and the holy Spirit are our strength; otherwise we are puddles.

That is true, but it is human nature to compare ourselves to others, seeking to feel superior, when God only wants us focused on Him.

You do a great job explaining the Catholic ideal and why you do these works. That is admirable. Where I draw exception is your characterization of the Protestant ideal as being, "I said the right things, now I can do what I want". That's not accurate at all. The ideal is for the sinner to be transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit, then see an explosion of good works caused by their love for Christ and zeal to live by His commands. A person who claims to be saved but does not live like it is no better off than a person who lives like they're saved but never repented of their evil works.

 

[Meriweather]

You do a great job explaining the Catholic ideal and why you do these works. That is admirable. Where I draw exception is your characterization of the Protestant ideal as being, "I said the right things, now I can do what I want". That's not accurate at all. The ideal is for the sinner to be transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit, then see an explosion of good works caused by their love for Christ and zeal to live by His commands. A person who claims to be saved but does not live like it is no better off than a person who lives like they're saved but never repented of their evil works.

I understand the inaccuracy--at least for the great majority. However, this is often the starting point some use to claim Catholics are working for salvation. Isn't it ironic that what some see "an explosion of good works caused by their love for God" only if it is a Protestant doing these works. Yet if one says, "No, that person is a Catholic" it suddenly becomes, "Oh, in that case, that person is trying to earn salvation."

 

[hadit]

I understand the inaccuracy--at least for the great majority. However, this is often the starting point some use to claim Catholics are working for salvation. Isn't it ironic that what some see "an explosion of good works caused by their love for God" only if it is a Protestant doing these works. Yet if one says, "No, that person is a Catholic" it suddenly becomes, "Oh, in that case, that person is trying to earn salvation."

They say that when it goes from, "I do good works because I love God and want to show His love to the world", to "I do good works because I hope they will make God accept me". IOW, there are enough Protestants who think they can say the right words, then do whatever they want that you feel justified in accusing "Protestants" of ignoring God's commands, while there are enough Catholics who think they have to do good works in order for God to accept them that we feel justified in accusing "Catholics" of trying to earn salvation. In the middle we stand, both understanding the necessity of faith AND works. Salvation comes through faith and not through works, Scripture is clear on that. Also abundantly clear from Scripture are the commands to do good to others. You cannot have one without the other. Faith without works is dead. Also dead are works without faith.

 

[Meriweather]

They say that when it goes from, "I do good works because I love God and want to show His love to the world", to "I do good works because I hope they will make God accept me". IOW, there are enough Protestants who think they can say the right words, then do whatever they want that you feel justified in accusing "Protestants" of ignoring God's commands, while there are enough Catholics who think they have to do good works in order for God to accept them that we feel justified in accusing "Catholics" of trying to earn salvation. In the middle we stand, both understanding the necessity of faith AND works. Salvation comes through faith and not through works, Scripture is clear on that. Also abundantly clear from Scripture are the commands to do good to others. You cannot have one without the other. Faith without works is dead. Also dead are works without faith.

I am not accusing Protestants of anything. I am answering Protestant accusations against Catholics. I have never heard a Catholic say, "I do good works because I hope they will make God accept me." I have heard Protestants accuse Catholics of such. Catholics do as they do because they are following God's commands. When a Protestant tells Catholics no need to follow these commands because Christ finished everything, the law has been set aside, and so it follows Catholics feel Christ left things undone" what else is there but to accept some Protestants don't do follow commands because they don't wish to eclipse Christ and his finished work?

You think there are "enough Catholics" who are working to "earn" salvation, yet I have never met a one. Are there "enough Protestants" who do not see the importance of following God's commands because of Christ's finished work?

It is the Catholics' faith in Christ, his Way, his teachings that have us following Christ on his Way, of living his teachings, and obeying his commands.

 

[hadit]

I am not accusing Protestants of anything. I am answering Protestant accusations against Catholics. I have never heard a Catholic say, "I do good works because I hope they will make God accept me." I have heard Protestants accuse Catholics of such. Catholics do as they do because they are following God's commands. When a Protestant tells Catholics no need to follow these commands because Christ finished everything, the law has been set aside, and so it follows Catholics feel Christ left things undone" what else is there but to accept some Protestants don't do follow commands because they don't wish to eclipse Christ and his finished work?

And there is the accusation. "Well, they MUST think that because they accuse us of" <fill in the blanks>. And yes, Christ DID finish everything. Salvation is complete and sure, unearned, a gift. It is also the start of a person living for Christ, learning about Him, obeying His commands.

You think there are "enough Catholics" who are working to "earn" salvation, yet I have never met a one. Are there "enough Protestants" who do not see the importance of following God's commands because of Christ's finished work?

It is the Catholics' faith in Christ, his Way, his teachings that have us following Christ on his Way, of living his teachings, and obeying his commands.

I have not met a "Protestant" who thinks they don't have to obey Christ's commands either. In fact, our church services are filled with admonitions to live for Him, not ourselves. "Take up your cross daily and follow me". It would seem that there are stereotypes at play.

 

[Meriweather]

In fact, our church services are filled with admonitions to live for Him, not ourselves.

That's my point. When Catholics do the exact same thing, some call it "earning" salvation. That needs to stop.

 

[hadit]

That's my point. When Catholics do the exact same thing, some call it "earning" salvation. That needs to stop.

Yes, it does, and sometimes, it's Catholics who perpetuate the idea.

 

[Meriweather]

Yes, it does, and sometimes, it's Catholics who perpetuate the idea.

Here we disagree. This idea started with Martin Luther, was embraced and has been thrown at Catholics ever since. When Catholics respond with what this logically means knickers get in a twist as those who agree with Luther as they insist it only applies when Catholics do good and follow commands, but never when they do the exact same thing.

I have great compassion for Martin Luther as he had a rough childhood and could never do enough to please his father. People who have issues with their earthly father, often see those same issues reflected as we view God as Father. Luther saw God the Father through the same lens as he had lived with his earthly father, and that nothing he could do was ever good enough. Imagine his relief and his sense of freedom once he realized, in God's eyes, he had always been good enough. Also keep in mind, Luther's break from the Catholic faith did not have all the results he had imagined it would bring about.

 

[hadit]

Here we disagree. This idea started with Martin Luther, was embraced and has been thrown at Catholics ever since. When Catholics respond with what this logically means knickers get in a twist as those who agree with Luther as they insist it only applies when Catholics do good and follow commands, but never when they do the exact same thing.

I have great compassion for Martin Luther as he had a rough childhood and could never do enough to please his father. People who have issues with their earthly father, often see those same issues reflected as we view God as Father. Luther saw God the Father through the same lens as he had lived with his earthly father, and that nothing he could do was ever good enough. Imagine his relief and his sense of freedom once he realized, in God's eyes, he had always been good enough. Also keep in mind, Luther's break from the Catholic faith did not have all the results he had imagined it would bring about.

You also have to remember that the Catholic Church of Luther's time was corrupt beyond the understanding of many today. People were being fleeced, for one example, to get their loved ones out of Purgatory. It WAS a great relief to Luther when he discovered that faith was what God required and he was then free to live without the crushing guilt foisted on him by the Church. There was no need for a lifetime of self-flagellation and never-ending condemnation. Had the Church been spreading the GOOD news of God's salvation and freedom in Christ, he would not have had to break from it.

And yes, I have seen some on this board say that works are required for salvation, and that is one thing that drives the accusation the Catholics believe in a works-based salvation. They do not understand the roles that faith and works play, nor the transforming power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Meriweather]

You also have to remember that the Catholic Church of Luther's time was corrupt beyond the understanding of many today.

No it was not. It was quite understandable and there were people within the Church who were working to correct it from within. Luther decided to start over and guess what he discovered: The new organization was no better--and in some ways worse--than the one he left with the purpose of starting anew.

 

[Meriweather]

People were being fleeced, for one example, to get their loved ones out of Purgatory.

Sigh.

 

[hadit]

Sigh.

You disagree that Luther opposed indulgences?

 

[Meriweather]

It WAS a great relief to Luther when he discovered that faith was what God required and he was then free to live without the crushing guilt foisted on him by the Church. There was no need for a lifetime of self-flagellation and never-ending condemnation. Had the Church been spreading the GOOD news of God's salvation and freedom in Christ, he would not have had to break from it.

Luther's guilt was foisted on him by his father and he brought this guilt with him into the Church. The Good News was proclaimed in those times using the same readings that are used today.

In those days, State and Church ruled together. Wealth came from the State, whose firstborn became leaders of the state, and who sent younger sons to the Church to add strength to State purposes. Remember, the Reformation and Enlightenment wasn't merely about overthrowing the Church, it was about overthrowing the government which consisted at that time of both Church and State. The Church became much better as the result of separation of Church and State.

Luther was a product of his time--delving deeply into his history we discover the people interested in overthrowing government found Luther to be a useful puppet--which is why Luther came to regret leaving the Church. He could have been one who was working within instead of running away.

 

[Meriweather]

You disagree that Luther opposed indulgences?

Again, dig more deeply. There was a church being built/repaired (I forget which) and that Bishop was pushing indulgences to pay for building that church. This was not the proper purpose/reason for indulgences and many protested--including Luther. The Church had already begun to correct this Bishop. Protestants give Luther all credit for this, when he was one of many--including those in the Vatican--who were against what this Bishop was doing and were working to stop him.

Catholics don't deny untoward things were happening within the Church and many were working to stop them and make corrections. Luther had been one of them...

 

[hadit]

No it was not. It was quite understandable and there were people within the Church who were working to correct it from within. Luther decided to start over and guess what he discovered: The new organization was no better--and in some ways worse--than the one he left with the purpose of starting anew.

You're talking about human organizations, which are always subject to human frailties. Insisting, for example, that a denomination or denomination's leader is always correct and cannot be found in error inevitably leads to corruption and greed, and when that corruption becomes too deeply rooted, separation must occur. Every generation needs to challenge their beliefs to ensure the congregation doesn't wander from the Scriptures and replace God's calling with man's ideas. Does that happen in the Catholic Church? I grew up Conservative Conference Mennonite, and sometimes Menno Simons was subconsciously elevated higher than we mere mortals and his stances were not to be questioned too strongly. That's not good. We needed to review his stances and see if they still applied.

Live a simple life, not flashy or concerned with outward appearance? Okay, that's Biblical, keep it. It doesn't mean, however, that life as a farmer is superior to life as a doctor or lawyer.
No musical instruments in Church because the Church of his day had massive orchestras, pipe organs and put on a spectacle? Good as a protest in his day, but no, musical instruments are condoned in the Bible. That doesn't mean, however, that we should put on a spectacle today.
Women covering their heads with a token piece of lace? Check the Scripture to see what a woman with her hair showing meant when that was written, and no, we don't need to today.
No wedding rings because they are jewelry? No, a wedding ring today symbolizes to the world that a man or woman is off the market, committed to another.

And on it goes.

Where are the voices challenging the absurd notion that the Pope is inerrant when he issues a missive?
Who holds the Pope accountable? In Protestant churches, there is a Board that can fire a pastor if he goes off the rails. Who can fire the Pope if he does the same?
Where are the voices challenging the absurd notion that the Catholic Church is the only correct one and that all others are in error, or at least the Catholic Church is superior to all others? I don't know if that is official church policy, but I see it trumpeted on here, so obviously some believe it. Who is telling them that they are wrong?
Where are the voices challenging the absurd notion that Church tradition has equal authority with God-breathed Scripture?

 

[hadit]

Again, dig more deeply. There was a church being built/repaired (I forget which) and that Bishop was pushing indulgences to pay for building that church. This was not the proper purpose/reason for indulgences and many protested--including Luther. The Church had already begun to correct this Bishop. Protestants give Luther all credit for this, when he was one of many--including those in the Vatican--who were against what this Bishop was doing and were working to stop him.

Hold on for clarification. Do you hold that indulgences for ANY purpose are valid and correct?

Catholics don't deny untoward things were happening within the Church and many were working to stop them and make corrections. Luther had been one of them...

And he decided that the corruption had become too advanced and too strong to be reformed, so split from it. We can argue if he was correct to do so or not, but that was his decision. The question becomes therefore, is the Catholic Church completely incompatible with the other churches today, and can we all present a united front to the world, or are all the churches going to insist everything must be done their way or not at all?

 

[hadit]

Luther's guilt was foisted on him by his father and he brought this guilt with him into the Church. The Good News was proclaimed in those times using the same readings that are used today.

In those days, State and Church ruled together. Wealth came from the State, whose firstborn became leaders of the state, and who sent younger sons to the Church to add strength to State purposes. Remember, the Reformation and Enlightenment wasn't merely about overthrowing the Church, it was about overthrowing the government which consisted at that time of both Church and State. The Church became much better as the result of separation of Church and State.

Luther was a product of his time--delving deeply into his history we discover the people interested in overthrowing government found Luther to be a useful puppet--which is why Luther came to regret leaving the Church. He could have been one who was working within instead of running away.

And that's what happens when power and wealth become concentrated. Those who want it seek it, and those who have it sell it. Strangely enough, Christ's church should not have political power, precisely for that reason.

 

[Meriweather]

Where are the voices challenging the absurd notion that the Pope is inerrant when he issues a missive?

Which tells me right there that some haven't a clue about how and when a Papal decision is inerrant. There have only been two or three instances of this. Know how all came about? It was after decades--in one case centuries if I recall correctly--of investigations and testimonies and no decision could be reached as the matter went from the pews (the people) up through priests, bishops, cardinals. The consensus was a decision needed to be reached, and since it hadn't been reached despite all efforts, it lands in the lap of the Pope. The Pope decides and the matter is settled. For good. That way it doesn't return to the beginning with decades/centuries of investigations and testimonies before it reaches the Pope all over again.

Only non-Catholics see the Pope himself as inerrant. Catholics just roll their eyes at that nonsense.