A Question of 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists

[Care4all]

it burned and smoldered for 5 months after the collapse....i remember that it was february 02 before it stopped burning....that is a very long time....

 

[glockmail]

what happened to the series of central columns..and where did the molten metal come from

The columns collapsed and buckled at their bolted joints when they lost lateral support from the floors.

With regards to the unrelated issue that you brought up, although there have been several reports of "molten steel", when the bottom of the excavation was reached there were no pools of solidified steel, thereby proving those reports to be bullshit.

 

[glockmail]

it burned and smoldered for 5 months after the collapse....i remember that it was february 02 before it stopped burning....that is a very long time....

That's to be expected with thousands of gallons of jet fuel, furniture, paper and debris insulated in very deep basements.

 

[eots]

you just say no molten therefore there is none ? its just explained away like that huh and again all-this buckling you speak of caused no delay in the speed in which the towers fell and if the floors had the mass to knock out the floors beneath then why is there only ruble and dust ...where is the mass..the piles of floors

 

[glockmail]

you just say no molten therefore there is none ? its just explained away like that huh and again all-this buckling you speak of caused no delay in the speed in which the towers fell and if the floors had the mass to knock out the floors beneath then why is there only ruble and dust ...where is the mass..the piles of floors

I see your method of dealing with irrefutable logic is to construct sentences so poorly as to be unable to be deciphered. It's an unusual technique but one that I have seen before.

 

[DiveCon]

you just say no molten therefore there is none ? its just explained away like that huh and again all-this buckling you speak of caused no delay in the speed in which the towers fell and if the floors had the mass to knock out the floors beneath then why is there only ruble and dust ...where is the mass..the piles of floors

it is a lie to claim they fell at free fall speed
thats another of the many lies you troofers keep repeating
because you use faulty numbers to begin with
you use the full 110 story height as the full length of the fall when the pile that was left was over 4 stories tall and the colapse didnt start at the very top
this is just the logic and common sense you morons lack

 

[DiveCon]

I see your method of dealing with irrefutable logic is to construct sentences so poorly as to be unable to be deciphered. It's an unusual technique but one that I have seen before.

he also ignores what happens to concrete as it would fall
it tends to return to a powder state
but hey, he is in denial of common sense and logic anyway

 

[eots]

the towers fell at near free fall speed and nowhere near the time reqired for a pancake collapse to ocurr and what of building 7


WTC 7 Falls in under 7 seconds. The rate of free fall for the 47 story building is 6.8

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U]YouTube - WTC 7 Free Fall Collapse[/ame]

 

[glockmail]

he also ignores what happens to concrete as it would fall
it tends to return to a powder state
but hey, he is in denial of common sense and logic anyway

It was actually gyp-crete, a mixture of portland cement, gypsum and fine aggregates which is very weak and in fact disintegrates into dust as you described.

 

[eots]

I see your method of dealing with irrefutable logic is to construct sentences so poorly as to be unable to be deciphered. It's an unusual technique but one that I have seen before.

I see you cant answer the question in any detail and just make empty statements

 

[eots]

That's to be expected with thousands of gallons of jet fuel, furniture, paper and debris insulated in very deep basements.

those items dont burn at the tempatures recorded ..jet fuel would immeditly be burned off in the intial explosion and jet fuel doesnt even burn at the tempatures recorded

 

[glockmail]

I see you cant answer the question in any detail and just make empty statements

I'm sorry, was that a question?

 

[Care4all]

That's to be expected with thousands of gallons of jet fuel, furniture, paper and debris insulated in very deep basements.

i can see that....

at the time, it was tormenting to watch the burn continuing....and having to wait on looking for human remains in those burning areas....

 

[glockmail]

those items dont burn at the tempatures recorded ..jet fuel would immeditly be burned off in the intial explosion and jet fuel doesnt even burn at the tempatures recorded

Wow- what's a "tempatures "? Do you mean temperature? But your position earlier was that the fire was hot enough to melt steel. Perhaps you should get your theory straight before you repeat it. But that would take scientific knowledge, including how the building was built, and that's just too hard for you folks, isn't it?

 

[dilloduck]

those items dont burn at the tempatures recorded ..jet fuel would immeditly be burned off in the intial explosion and jet fuel doesnt even burn at the tempatures recorded

Why did they even bother flying planes into the buidlings ?

 

[eots]

Let’s start with temperatures – 1,340 F. temperatures, recorded in thermal images of the surface of the World Trade Center rubble pile a week after 9/11 by NASA’s AVIRIS equipment on USGS overflights.3Such temperatures cannot be achieved by oxygen-starved hydrocarbon fires. Such fires burn at only 600 to 800 F.4Remember, there was no fire on the top of the pile. Thesource of this incredible heat was therefore below the surface of the rubble, where it must havebeen far hotter than 1,340 degrees. Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc., who was hired for the Building 7 cleanup, said that “molten steel was found at 7 WTC.”5Leslie Robertson, World Trade Centerstructural engineer, stated that on October 5, “21 days after the attacks, the fires were stillburning and molten steel was still running.”6Fire department personnel, recorded on video, reported seeing “molten steel running down the channel rails… like you're in a foundry – likelava from a volcano.”7Joe O’Toole, a Bronx firefighter, saw a crane lifting a steel beamvertically from deep within a pile. He said “it was dripping from the molten steel.”8BartVoorsanger, an architect hired to save “relics from the rubble,” stated about the multi-ton “meteorite” that it was a “fused element of molten steel and concrete.”9The knowledge that this evidence even exists was denied by one of your top engineers, John Gross, in his appearance at the University of Texas in April of this year.10Steel melts at about 2,850 degrees Fahrenheit, about twice the temperature of the World TradeCenter Tower 1 and 2 fires as estimated by NIST. So what melted the steel?
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2 Appendix C of FEMA’s BPAT Report (attached to this email) documents steel samples showingrapid oxidation, sulfidation, and intergranular melting.11A liquid eutectic mixture, includingsulfur from an unknown source, caused intense corrosion of the steel, gaping holes in wideflange beams, and the thinning of half-inch-thick flanges to almost razor-sharpness in the World Trade Center 7 steel. The New York Times called this “the deepest mystery uncovered in theinvestigation.”NIST left all of this crucial forensic evidence out of its report. Why? Because it didn’t fit in with the official conspiracy theory. Last year, physicist Steven Jones, two other physicists, and a geologist analyzed the slag at theends of the beams and in the samples of the previously molten metal.12They found iron, aluminum, sulfur, manganese and fluorine – the chemical evidence of thermate, a high-tech incendiary cutting charge used by the military to cut through steel like a hot knife through butter. The by-product of the thermate reaction is molten iron! There’s no other possible source for allthe molten iron that was found. One of thermate’s key ingredients is sulfur, which can form theliquid eutectic that FEMA found and lower the melting point of steel. In addition, World Trade Center 7’s catastrophic structural failure showed every characteristic ofexplosive, controlled demolition. You can see all these characteristics at our websitewww.AE911truth.org. The destruction began suddenly at the base of the building. Several firstresponders reported explosions occurring about a second before the collapse. There was thesymmetrical, near-free-fall speed of collapse, through the path of greatest resistance – with 40,000 tons of steel designed to resist this load – straight down into its own footprint. Thisrequires that all the columns have to fail within a fraction of a second of each other – perimetercolumns as well as core columns. There was also the appearance of mistimed explosions(squibs?) at the upper seven floors on the network video recordings of the collapse. And we haveexpert testimony from a European demolitions expert, Danny Jowenko, who said “This iscontrolled demolition… a team of experts did this… This is professional work, without anydoubt.”13Fire cannot produce these effects. Fire produces large, gradual deformations and asymmetricalcollapses. Thermate can produce all of these effects used in conjunction with linear shaped charges. If the thermate is formed into ultra-fine particles, as has been accomplished at LosAlamos National Laboratory, it is called super-thermate, and is very explosive.14The National Fire Protection Association’s NFPA 921 Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations (1998 Edition) dictates in fire investigations that certain residues should be tested for. Thermate would leave behind signs of sulfidation/corrosion by sulfur. Such residues were in fact noted in Appendix C of the FEMA BPAT report (see note 11). “If the physical evidenceestablishes one factor, such as the presence of an accelerant, that may be sufficient to establish the cause even where other factors such as ignition source cannot be determined.”15Thermateand sulfur obviously qualify as accelerants in this case (with regard to the destruction of steelwhich in turn could have caused the near-free-fall-speed collapse). (The fires were notparticularly suspicious, but Building 7’s collapse was, because of its symmetry and speed.)
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3 Because NIST seems to have forgotten or neglected to apply key features of the scientificmethod, I am including as an attachment to this submission Steven E. Jones, “Revisiting9/11/2001 -- Applying the Scientific Method”, Journal of 911 Studies, April 2007, http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf. How much longer must we endure NIST’s cover-up of how Building 7 was actually destroyed?Millions of Americans,16including the 230+ architects and engineers and 600 others ofAE911Truth.org, demand that NIST come clean with a full-throttle, fully resourced and transparent forensic investigation of the evidence of the controlled demolition of Building 7. References1AE911Truth.org.2James Quintiere, Ph.D., presentation at the 2007 World Fire Safety Conference June 4 and June 5, 2007,“Questions on the WTC Investigations,” quoted in Alan Miller, “Former Chief of NIST's Fire Science DivisionCalls for Independent Review of World Trade Center Investigation,” OpEdNews.com, August 21, 2007,OpEdNews » OpEdNews.Com Progressive, Tough Liberal News and Opinion 01-0429: World Trade Center USGS Thermal, http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html,cited in Roger N. Clark, Robert O. Green, et al., OFR 01-0429: World Trade Center USGS Imaging Spectroscopy,USGS Open-File Report 01-0429, “Environmental Studies of the World Trade Center area after the September 11,2001 attack,” November 27, 2001, http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/.4This is a correction from my spoken statement. Moreover, according to NIST NCSTAR 1(http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1CollapseofTowers.pdf), p. 29, the highest temperature typically reached by firesof common building combustibles is 1,100 C. Moreover, even for WTC 1, where the fires were ignited by jet fuel,NIST estimated the temperature range as between 500 and 1,000 C. The high end of this range is about 2/3 themelting point of steel. There is no evidence to support the idea that the fires in WTC 7 were any hotter than this. Onthe contrary, the holes in WTC 7 caused by falling steel from WTC 1, which would have fed oxygen to the fires inWTC 7, were much smaller than those in WTC 1 and farther from the observed flames.5Christopher Bollyn, “New Seismic Data Refutes Official Explanation,” American Free Press, September 3, 2002,Internet Archive Wayback Machine Williams, SEAUNEWS, The Newsletter of the Structural Engineers Association of Utah, October 2001, page3, http://www.seau.org/SEAUNews-2001-10.pdf. The words appear without quotes, so they might be Williams’paraphrase.7“Molten Metal Flows at Ground Zero,” posted November 16, 2006, Molten Metal Flows at Ground Zero Lin, “Recovery worker reflects on months spent at Ground Zero," May 29, 2002, Knight-Ridder, cited inDavid Ray Griffin, 9/11, American Empire, and Christian Faith, May 5, 2006, Global Research,http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2393.9Relics In The Rubble, http://bsdb.nfshost.com/ae911truth_v13/Relics_in_the_Rubble_Meteorite.wmv, excerpted as“Molten Steel Found in Ruins of World Trade Center,” posted May 31, 2007,MySpaceTV Videos: Watch and share your favorite videos, trailers, movies, tv shows, music videos, and clips Lead Engineer Questioned About 9/11 Denies Molten Metal,” posted May 21, 2007,NIST Lead Engineer Questioned About 9/11 ~ Denies Molten Metal. One of AE911Truth’s member-signers waspresent when Dr. Gross made his denial. He denied not only that the reports of molten steel or iron were true, buteven knowing of any such reports having been made by any eyewitnesses. This video provides another copy of theclip referenced in “Molten Metal Flows at Ground Zero,” cited above.
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4 11Jonathan Barnett, Ronald R. Biederman, and R. D. Sisson, Jr., “Limited Metallurgical Examination,” undated,http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apc.pdf.12Steven Jones, “Can one PROVE the use of thermate/superthermate?”, “Answers to Objections and Questions,”July 18, 2006, Journal of 9/11 Studies,http://www.journalof911studies.com/articles/JonesAnswersQuestionsWorldTradeCenter.pdf.13Posted on YouTube in three parts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3DR...utube.com/watch?v=sep-HDZoEBM&feature=related, andhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boNzLZInbjU.14John Gartner, “Military Reloads with Nanotech,” Technology Review (MIT), January 21, 2005,http://www.technologyreview.com/Nanotech/14105/.15“NFPA 921 Section 12-2.4 : Undetermined Fire Cause,” reproduced athttp://www.interfire.org/res_file/92112m.asp.16Mike Berger, “Zogby Poll Finds Over 70 Million Voting Age Americans Support New 9/11 Investigation,” May22, 2006, http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20060522022041421.eratures[/I]

 

[glockmail]

Let’s start with temperatures – 1,340 F. temperatures, recorded in thermal images of the surface of the World Trade Center rubble pile a week after 9/11 by NASA’s AVIRIS equipment on USGS overflights.3Such temperatures cannot be achieved by oxygen-starved hydrocarbon fires. Such fires burn at only 600 to 800 F.4Remember, there was no fire on the top of the pile. Thesource of this incredible heat was therefore below the surface of the rubble, where it must havebeen far hotter than 1,340 degrees. Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc., who was hired for the Building 7 cleanup, said that “molten steel was found at 7 WTC.”5Leslie Robertson, World Trade Centerstructural engineer, stated that on October 5, “21 days after the attacks, the fires were stillburning and molten steel was still running.”6Fire department personnel, recorded on video, reported seeing “molten steel running down the channel rails… like you're in a foundry – likelava from a volcano.”7Joe O’Toole, a Bronx firefighter, saw a crane lifting a steel beamvertically from deep within a pile. He said “it was dripping from the molten steel.”8BartVoorsanger, an architect hired to save “relics from the rubble,” stated about the multi-ton “meteorite” that it was a “fused element of molten steel and concrete.”9The knowledge that this evidence even exists was denied by one of your top engineers, John Gross, in his appearance at the University of Texas in April of this year.10Steel melts at about 2,850 degrees Fahrenheit, about twice the temperature of the World TradeCenter Tower 1 and 2 fires as estimated by NIST. So what melted the steel?
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Page 2
2 Appendix C of FEMA’s BPAT Report (attached to this email) documents steel samples showingrapid oxidation, sulfidation, and intergranular melting.11A liquid eutectic mixture, includingsulfur from an unknown source, caused intense corrosion of the steel, gaping holes in wideflange beams, and the thinning of half-inch-thick flanges to almost razor-sharpness in the World Trade Center 7 steel. The New York Times called this “the deepest mystery uncovered in theinvestigation.”NIST left all of this crucial forensic evidence out of its report. Why? Because it didn’t fit in with the official conspiracy theory. Last year, physicist Steven Jones, two other physicists, and a geologist analyzed the slag at theends of the beams and in the samples of the previously molten metal.12They found iron, aluminum, sulfur, manganese and fluorine – the chemical evidence of thermate, a high-tech incendiary cutting charge used by the military to cut through steel like a hot knife through butter. The by-product of the thermate reaction is molten iron! There’s no other possible source for allthe molten iron that was found. One of thermate’s key ingredients is sulfur, which can form theliquid eutectic that FEMA found and lower the melting point of steel. In addition, World Trade Center 7’s catastrophic structural failure showed every characteristic ofexplosive, controlled demolition. You can see all these characteristics at our websitewww.AE911truth.org. The destruction began suddenly at the base of the building. Several firstresponders reported explosions occurring about a second before the collapse. There was thesymmetrical, near-free-fall speed of collapse, through the path of greatest resistance – with 40,000 tons of steel designed to resist this load – straight down into its own footprint. Thisrequires that all the columns have to fail within a fraction of a second of each other – perimetercolumns as well as core columns. There was also the appearance of mistimed explosions(squibs?) at the upper seven floors on the network video recordings of the collapse. And we haveexpert testimony from a European demolitions expert, Danny Jowenko, who said “This iscontrolled demolition… a team of experts did this… This is professional work, without anydoubt.”13Fire cannot produce these effects. Fire produces large, gradual deformations and asymmetricalcollapses. Thermate can produce all of these effects used in conjunction with linear shaped charges. If the thermate is formed into ultra-fine particles, as has been accomplished at LosAlamos National Laboratory, it is called super-thermate, and is very explosive.14The National Fire Protection Association’s NFPA 921 Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations (1998 Edition) dictates in fire investigations that certain residues should be tested for. Thermate would leave behind signs of sulfidation/corrosion by sulfur. Such residues were in fact noted in Appendix C of the FEMA BPAT report (see note 11). “If the physical evidenceestablishes one factor, such as the presence of an accelerant, that may be sufficient to establish the cause even where other factors such as ignition source cannot be determined.”15Thermateand sulfur obviously qualify as accelerants in this case (with regard to the destruction of steelwhich in turn could have caused the near-free-fall-speed collapse). (The fires were notparticularly suspicious, but Building 7’s collapse was, because of its symmetry and speed.)
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3 Because NIST seems to have forgotten or neglected to apply key features of the scientificmethod, I am including as an attachment to this submission Steven E. Jones, “Revisiting9/11/2001 -- Applying the Scientific Method”, Journal of 911 Studies, April 2007, http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf. How much longer must we endure NIST’s cover-up of how Building 7 was actually destroyed?Millions of Americans,16including the 230+ architects and engineers and 600 others ofAE911Truth.org, demand that NIST come clean with a full-throttle, fully resourced and transparent forensic investigation of the evidence of the controlled demolition of Building 7. References1AE911Truth.org.2James Quintiere, Ph.D., presentation at the 2007 World Fire Safety Conference June 4 and June 5, 2007,“Questions on the WTC Investigations,” quoted in Alan Miller, “Former Chief of NIST's Fire Science DivisionCalls for Independent Review of World Trade Center Investigation,” OpEdNews.com, August 21, 2007,OpEdNews » OpEdNews.Com Progressive, Tough Liberal News and Opinion 01-0429: World Trade Center USGS Thermal, http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html,cited in Roger N. Clark, Robert O. Green, et al., OFR 01-0429: World Trade Center USGS Imaging Spectroscopy,USGS Open-File Report 01-0429, “Environmental Studies of the World Trade Center area after the September 11,2001 attack,” November 27, 2001, http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/.4This is a correction from my spoken statement. Moreover, according to NIST NCSTAR 1(http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1CollapseofTowers.pdf), p. 29, the highest temperature typically reached by firesof common building combustibles is 1,100 C. Moreover, even for WTC 1, where the fires were ignited by jet fuel,NIST estimated the temperature range as between 500 and 1,000 C. The high end of this range is about 2/3 themelting point of steel. There is no evidence to support the idea that the fires in WTC 7 were any hotter than this. Onthe contrary, the holes in WTC 7 caused by falling steel from WTC 1, which would have fed oxygen to the fires inWTC 7, were much smaller than those in WTC 1 and farther from the observed flames.5Christopher Bollyn, “New Seismic Data Refutes Official Explanation,” American Free Press, September 3, 2002,Internet Archive Wayback Machine Williams, SEAUNEWS, The Newsletter of the Structural Engineers Association of Utah, October 2001, page3, http://www.seau.org/SEAUNews-2001-10.pdf. The words appear without quotes, so they might be Williams’paraphrase.7“Molten Metal Flows at Ground Zero,” posted November 16, 2006, Molten Metal Flows at Ground Zero Lin, “Recovery worker reflects on months spent at Ground Zero," May 29, 2002, Knight-Ridder, cited inDavid Ray Griffin, 9/11, American Empire, and Christian Faith, May 5, 2006, Global Research,http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2393.9Relics In The Rubble, http://bsdb.nfshost.com/ae911truth_v13/Relics_in_the_Rubble_Meteorite.wmv, excerpted as“Molten Steel Found in Ruins of World Trade Center,” posted May 31, 2007,MySpaceTV Videos: Watch and share your favorite videos, trailers, movies, tv shows, music videos, and clips Lead Engineer Questioned About 9/11 Denies Molten Metal,” posted May 21, 2007,NIST Lead Engineer Questioned About 9/11 ~ Denies Molten Metal. One of AE911Truth’s member-signers waspresent when Dr. Gross made his denial. He denied not only that the reports of molten steel or iron were true, buteven knowing of any such reports having been made by any eyewitnesses. This video provides another copy of theclip referenced in “Molten Metal Flows at Ground Zero,” cited above.
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Page 4
4 11Jonathan Barnett, Ronald R. Biederman, and R. D. Sisson, Jr., “Limited Metallurgical Examination,” undated,http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apc.pdf.12Steven Jones, “Can one PROVE the use of thermate/superthermate?”, “Answers to Objections and Questions,”July 18, 2006, Journal of 9/11 Studies,http://www.journalof911studies.com/articles/JonesAnswersQuestionsWorldTradeCenter.pdf.13Posted on YouTube in three parts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3DR...utube.com/watch?v=sep-HDZoEBM&feature=related, andhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boNzLZInbjU.14John Gartner, “Military Reloads with Nanotech,” Technology Review (MIT), January 21, 2005,http://www.technologyreview.com/Nanotech/14105/.15“NFPA 921 Section 12-2.4 : Undetermined Fire Cause,” reproduced athttp://www.interfire.org/res_file/92112m.asp.16Mike Berger, “Zogby Poll Finds Over 70 Million Voting Age Americans Support New 9/11 Investigation,” May22, 2006, http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20060522022041421.eratures[/I]

Nice cut-n-paste, but I'm looking for your explanation.

 

[eots]

lets hear yours....mr popular mechanics..backed up with some kind of info other than popular mechanics

 

[glockmail]

lets hear yours....mr popular mechanics..backed up with some kind of info other than popular mechanics

Mine is the same as the conclusion of the American Society of Civil Engineers, of which I have been a member for almost 30 years. The unabated fires brought the buildings down: The floor trusses softened and drooped, the columns then lost lateral support and buckled at their weakest points, which were bolted connections in 20' lengths. When one 40' section gave way the building above that level dropped, "free fall", to the sections below, which were not designed to handle those dynamic loads. Therefore the failure progressed to the entire building.

 

[KittenKoder]

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.