A Solution To The Middle East Conflict

[Daniyel]

To no one in particular....

Let's say I move across the tracks to the worst side of town, and then I get robbed. So I stand on a soapbox and yell to my friends....

"What I really want is security!!!"

My friends roll their eyes and look at me curiously, wondering if maybe I've been drinking. They take pity on me and offer me a room at their house in the best part of town. And I yell back...

"No!!! I want to conquer this shithole!!!"

Ok, whatever, my friends shrug.

And then the next time I get robbed nobody will listen to my story.

Exactly! Israel never complained because (in your metaphor) Israel is a big tough dude heavily armed, not the typical robbery victim.. however it is unlawful to rob ANYONE.
So try asking the Palestinians to leave Israel, if peace is what they desire above all.
And by the way Israel is not a shithole, Gaza is.

 

[Daniyel]

This is why nobody wants to leave Israel, but everyone wants to be here!

 

[Typist]

Exactly! Israel never complained because (in your metaphor) Israel is a big tough dude heavily armed, not the typical robbery victim..

Yes, this is a true accomplishment of the state of Israel, Jews are no longer unarmed victims. There's no doubt this is a very impressive accomplishment.

If I thought this strategy would work over the long run I'd be for it. But I don't think it will, so that's why I've offered an alternative strategy.

So try asking the Palestinians to leave Israel, if peace is what they desire above all.

I don't say much about the Palestinians because they are not my concern. I don't hate the Palestinians, but neither are they my focus.

My interest is that the security and prosperity of the Israeli people not be dependent in any way on what the Palestinians do or don't do.

It is my thesis that Jews will be more secure if they stop thinking about the Palestinians, and instead think more carefully about their own security.

Forget the Palestinians, they have their own destiny to work through. It's their business, and not your problem.

Your problem is that your children have to serve in the army, your civilian populations are chronically at risk, and you are losing the global public relations battle.

The way to fix all that is to stop thinking about the Palestinians, and think more clearly about what is in your own national interest.

Yes, I am accusing Israelis of being sloppy about security, and I do realize that sounds ridiculous, but...

There's some truth to it.

In America you'll be safe.

In Israel you won't.

Simple equation.

Being missed by your leaders.

And by the way Israel is not a shithole, Gaza is.

Apologies, my bad for sloppy writing, I was referring to the neighborhood you live in, the entire Middle East.

It's going to be a murderous shithole for centuries to come, and there's nothing anybody can do about it, including Israel. Arab culture is about 500 years behind the West, and they are about to have a murderous religious confrontation similar to the conflict between Catholics and Protestants around the time of Henry the Eighth.

On top of that there is the conflict across the Arab world between democrats and fascists, which also took hundreds of years to resolve in the West.

These are huge historical forces which can not be controlled by Israeli F-15s. Yes, you can defeat them if they send tanks rolling across the desert. But you can not manage them if all their societies implode.

In my respectful opinion, you are making the classic mistake of fighting the last war.

 

[Daniyel]

Exactly! Israel never complained because (in your metaphor) Israel is a big tough dude heavily armed, not the typical robbery victim..

Yes, this is a true accomplishment of the state of Israel, Jews are no longer unarmed victims. There's no doubt this is a very impressive accomplishment.

If I thought this strategy would work over the long run I'd be for it. But I don't think it will, so that's why I've offered an alternative strategy.

So try asking the Palestinians to leave Israel, if peace is what they desire above all.

I don't say much about the Palestinians because they are not my concern. I don't hate the Palestinians, but neither are they my focus.

My interest is that the security and prosperity of the Israeli people not be dependent in any way on what the Palestinians do or don't do.

It is my thesis that Jews will be more secure if they stop thinking about the Palestinians, and instead think more carefully about their own security.

Forget the Palestinians, they have their own destiny to work through. It's their business, and not your problem.

Your problem is that your children have to serve in the army, your civilian populations are chronically at risk, and you are losing the global public relations battle.

The way to fix all that is to stop thinking about the Palestinians, and think more clearly about what is in your own national interest.

Yes, I am accusing Israelis of being sloppy about security, and I do realize that sounds ridiculous, but...

There's some truth to it.

In America you'll be safe.

In Israel you won't.

Simple equation.

Being missed by your leaders.

And by the way Israel is not a shithole, Gaza is.

Apologies, my bad for sloppy writing, I was referring to the neighborhood you live in, the entire Middle East.

It's going to be a murderous shithole for centuries to come, and there's nothing anybody can do about it, including Israel. Arab culture is about 500 years behind the West, and they are about to have a murderous religious confrontation similar to the conflict between Catholics and Protestants around the time of Henry the Eighth.

On top of that there is the conflict across the Arab world between democrats and fascists, which also took hundreds of years to resolve in the West.

These are huge historical forces which can not be controlled by Israeli F-15s. Yes, you can defeat them if they send tanks rolling across the desert. But you can not manage them if all their societies implode.

In my respectful opinion, you are making the classic mistake of fighting the last war.

Israel and the US only stepping forward, I know it looks weird that one small state in the middle east managed to survive, and develop, the good brighter future is achieving same goals with Egypt and Jordan mostly with the US, Israel is the only bridge to do so since most political affairs between the US relay or relate to Israel.
Establishing Western societies in the M.E. is the best solution for terror, I know a lot about terrorism in the M.E., fair enough to tell you that 90% of the terrorists won't blow themselves to hell - excuse me - paradise if they would have a nice car, job, and good life, and the only way to achieve it is by providing personal example.
The rift between Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews is closing up so fast, none of them even dream about leaving Israel, not because they see themselves Palestinians - but because they enjoy the life in Israel.
Egypt is considered intellectual population, they are tired of wars and with uprising terrorism, they know very well that establishing good wealth would be the best way to prevent it.
This is the future, and leave the metaphors behind, Israel is the best thing happened to the M.E. and mostly to US, Europe doesn't seem to blend with the M.E. much..so what options do you actually have? Israel.
We are safe in Israel, I appreciate your kind care, but our place is here in Israel, the bright future will come once everyone would realize that, and it sinks slowly, but eventually everyone will realize that and the M.E. will finally step forward.
Therefore the US and Europe must support Israel, because eventually not helping out the M.E. crisis would cause a major chaos in Europe, and US is next, imagine how experienced we are with terror and how many terrorist attacks we've experienced in the past week (over 20 attempts, 1 killed, 15 injured) , now think about vulnerability of the US or Europe (London is 50% Muslims! Paris 40%) - or any other Western state is..Radical Islam already reached there, Israel is the only last shield you actually have.
Think about that, the US includes Iraq giving US citizenship to all Iraqis, deploying massive support to wealth and funds, enforcing law and fighting terrorism actively, helping to establish powerful military and gate to all Americans in the M.E...wouldn't it be wonderful? wait, that's Israel already..even better


[MENTION=50357]Typist[/MENTION]

 

[docmauser1]

To no one in particular....

Let's say I move across the tracks to the worst side of town, and then I get robbed. So I stand on a soapbox and yell to my friends....

"What I really want is security!!!"

My friends roll their eyes and look at me curiously, wondering if maybe I've been drinking. They take pity on me and offer me a room at their house in the best part of town. And I yell back...

"No!!! I want to conquer this shithole!!!"

Ok, whatever, my friends shrug.

And then the next time I get robbed nobody will listen to my story.

If Israel's a shithole, then why hamasabad wants to conquer it?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Why don't we base peace on rights, justice, and international law.

We have never tried any of those.

 

[Daniyel]

Why don't we base peace on rights, justice, and international law.

We have never tried any of those.

You can't base peace on "rights, and justice" - you can alter the international law and the human rights to be just, but what is just to one, doesn't have to be just to the other.
Anyway, basically you right, International Law would probably require to re-vote for all the current states again, to see which one is law from the beginning, that sounds fair..
Later we can talk about peace, you can't achieve peace without having a conflict or war settled and for that you need two for the equation, but you'll have to define each one by international law so you must first do the re-vote.

 

[Lipush]

Good idea. Peace in our time.

Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[LAfrique]

Greetings All,

Thank you for taking the time to consider my remarks.

This article proposes that the Mideast conflict between Israel and Palestine is approaching a historic fork in the road.

Down one road lies a dramatic success in which almost all the goals of all the parties are met in an irrevocable permanent manner. Down the other road lies a dramatic failure of biblical proportions. Most reading this will live to see which road is taken.

The following is a proposal which offers the parties an opportunity to take the road of peace by resolving the MidEast conflict in a decisive, permanent and timely manner.

To prepare ourselves for such a wonderful future, we must first pay the price of saying goodbye to a tragic past.



Saying Goodbye To The Past

Before we consider the solution offered below, it's important for us to be resolutely clear about what has been tried already and proven beyond not to work. As the saying goes, repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of stupidity.

Any benefit a reader might receive from this article will necessarily be built upon their willingness to face a well documented fact that nothing which has been tried so far over the last six decades has succeeded in resolving the MidEast conflict.

Not war or threats of war, not negotiation, not a finger pointing blame game, not analysis and talk, not experts, not American mediation, not the management of captive populations, not economic development, not clever technology, not waiting and hoping things will somehow get better.

None of it. None of it has worked.

Despite all these endlessly repeated efforts exerted over such a long period of time by so many so capable people, Israelis still don't have the peace and security they yearn for, and the Palestinians still don't have the freedom and land they so desperately desire. Both parties may instead be careening ever closer towards an uncontrollable descent in to chaos.

If a reader can squarely face the failure of all that has come before, if they can surrender the notion that repeating the same repetitive patterns over and over will somehow bring different and better results, that reader will then be on the edge of seeing a permanent peace which can satisfy the core demands of all parties to the conflict.



The Path To A Real And Permanent Peace

Like all peoples, the Israelis long for a durable peace, security and freedom, a safe place to raise their children and build a prosperous future. The whole point of establishing the state of Israel was to secure these worthy goals.

The bad news is that such a place will never exist for Jews in the Middle East. Three major wars, multiple uprising, waves of terrorist attacks, and six decades of never ending insecurity, hostility and death prove this beyond all doubt. So much blood has been spilled, so much hatred invoked, over such a period of time, that there is now no chance of a real peace within the lifetimes of anyone currently living.

In fact, the stable secure peace that Israelis seek may not exist for anyone in the entire Middle East for a century to come, as the Arab world is not only in conflict with Israel, but with itself.

How will Israel create a true lasting peace with it's neighbors if those countries should dissolve in to religious, political and economic chaos, a possibility which is looking increasingly likely? Israel should not confuse a history of defeating it's neighbor's strengths with an ability to survive their very real weaknesses.

The path to a permanent peace will be built upon a realistic recognition that the tragedy of Zionism is that it's a very noble goal, married to a very bad plan. A great race, led to exactly the wrong place. A very understandable mistake, made by brilliant and brave people, with a potentially catastrophic outcome.

The good news is that there is an excellent solution available which could accomplish the most fundamental goals of Zionism in a breathtakingly short period of time.

The good news is that the safest, most secure and prosperous place on Earth would welcome the people of Israel with open arms.

The good news is that the Jewish people can find everything they've been seeking for centuries in the United States.



What Is The Bottom Line?

Yes, ok, I know, I'm about to lose a great many of our Israeli friends. Ok, I hear you, leaving the Holy Land will definitely not be a welcome proposal for many.

But before you go, perhaps you might help us understand....

What is most important to you?

- An ever threatened Jewish state eternally in conflict with it's crumbling neighbors?

- Or the best peace, security and prosperity available on the planet Earth for your children?

What will your grandchildren inherit from you? What is it that you want most for your descendants? What is your bottom line?



Welcome To America!

The people of the United States would welcome the ingenius Jews of Israel as fellow citizens. America has after all been Israel's best friend since the beginning.

The American West is full of empty federal land which can be shared with the Israeli people, who would undoubtably work miracles with it.

Anti-semitism is minimal in the United States, and there are already about as many Jews in the United States as there are in Israel.

This prosperous Jewish population of the United States would rush to assist the new immigrants, just as they have faithfully supported the state of Israel.

The billions of dollars currently spent each year on defending Israel can be reinvested in the transition and in improving the lives of Israelis of limited means.

The children of Israel would no longer be required to become soldiers. This benefit alone should be enough, shouldn't it?

The people of Israel would be once and for all liberated from corrupt fascist dictatorships, religious fanatics, murderous neighbors, incoming rockets, tunneling militants, the disrespect of much of the world community, and a long history of chronic discrimination, oppression, abuse and slaughter.

The people of Israel would instead become welcome members of the world's oldest democracy, and citizens of the most prosperous and secure nation on Earth.

Come to America Israel, there is no faster, more reliable and durable way to secure the fundamental goals of Zionism.

Giving up the ancient dream of Israel will be a painful price for many without question. Peace will not come for free. We can't ignore that a true sacrifice is required.

But in return for that significant sacrifice Israelis would receive the assurance that their children will not perish in the firestorm which must inevitably envelope the Middle East sooner or later if this conflict is not resolved.

This peace does not require war, death and suffering to achieve. This peace does not require danger or risk. This peace does not require endlessly unsuccessful negotiations with former and current terrorists. This peace does not require trust in pieces of paper, or the promises of those who seek Israel's extermination. This peace does not make the security of Jews dependent on what their enemies do or don't do now or in the future.

This peace does not require waiting. Why should Israelis wait even more generations for the Palestinians to give them peace, when they can grasp the peace they seek all by themselves right now?

Come to America our Israeli friends, come to America.



The Price Of Failure

We should recall that population-wise Israel is smaller than New York City. While the state of Israel contains some of the world's most capable people, eight million citizens still makes for a tiny country.

To complicate matters further, Arabs are outproducing Jews within Israel. This means that at some point Israelis will face a lose/lose choice between surrendering their Jewish state, or surrendering their democracy. Both of these outcomes would destroy the soul of Israel.

Israel has already lost the public relations war in Europe and most other parts of the world, and is steadily losing ground in United States as well. Whether this is just and fair and right does not matter. It simply does not matter. What matters is that the Palestinians are winning the decisive public relationship battle. The same underdog sympathy which was crucial to the establishment of Israel is now being aimed at the Palestinians.

And that means the people of Israel will be ever more isolated and alone within the world community as we dive deeper in to an ever more globalized 21st century. If the conflict continues endlessly, sooner or later Israel will have no friends anywhere, and 8 million Jews will fight for their survival against 200 million Arabs completely on their own. This is what losing the public relations battle inevitably entails.

We might also recall that Israel's defenders have to win every single time, forever. But Israel's enemies only have to win once, just once.

Each year that passes without a resolution to the MidEast conflict is like another turn of the pistol barrel in a game of Russian roulette. While Israel looks invulnerable now, change is the one thing we can always count on, and sooner or later the chamber will contain a bullet.

Even the ancient story of Israel teaches us that whatever the ever brave and brilliant Jews construct, the changing tides of history can quickly sweep away. It's true for all of us.

The 21st century is going to be an era of unprecedented carnage, just as previous centuries have been. Technology is racing forward at an ever accelerating rate which further empowers everybody, including the bad guys. There is little chance the great powers can do more than slow the spread of weapons of mass destruction, given that they can't even liberate themselves from those weapons.

Sooner or later the murderous bad guys will get lucky and figure out how to deploy weapons of mass destruction within the tiny country of Israel, and surely other countries as well.

One bad day, one miscalculation, one unlucky break, one failure one time, one push of a button, that's all it would take to push Israel in to chaos. Israel could be gone in a day, an hour, in the time it takes to read this article. Welcome to the 21st century.

This is an unthinkable future, but it is coming nonetheless. The Iron Dome will not stop it from coming. The IDF can not win every single battle, forever. The Israelis can not out smart everybody, always. Nobody overcomes every single challenge from now until the end of time.

I beg our Israeli friends not to confuse their amazing accomplishments of the past with an ability to manage any future which might come. Israel has too many enemies. It is too small to survive the emerging mass destruction era of the 21st century. This reality must be faced with humility if the people of Israel are to be spared a Second Holocaust. All of us across the world must surrender our hubris if we are to save our kids.

While this is a grim tale indeed, all the epic suffering coming to the Middle East can be avoided. There is an abundance of good news here for anyone who wants peace, and is willing to act decisively to achieve it.

The people of Israel can choose their children's future over an ancient Zionist dream. If they do, all the peace, security and prosperity they so desire and deserve can be theirs. Not maybe someday in future generations, but for sure, today.

Come to America our Israeli friends, come to America. You'll never find in Israel what is already waiting for you here in America right now.

(Laughs) A place for dynasty Israel or Jewish people in US. Now, that's a possible option, since the USA is known as land of immigrants -

I, on the other hand, after having weighed situations in almost same manner as you, suggest Antarctica, or Great Britain (gang behind Balfour Declaration and its crazy "Jewish nation" idea).

 

[Beelzebub]

Why don't we base peace on rights, justice, and international law.

We have never tried any of those.

The Americans can always be trusted to do the right thing, once all other possibilities have been exhausted.

 

[MHunterB]

I'm sorry, but we already gave Utah to the Mormons.

Pico Blvd and Woodland Hills are as crowded as the Gaza Strip, no room there.

Would you consider Wisconsin?

It's not the Holy Land (unless you're into cheese), but you will be closer to Toastman and he sure does love kissing your butt!

I'm closer to Vermont

Maine is really GOD's country - 'cept He don't live heah in th' wintah.........

 

[proudveteran06]

Greetings All,

Thank you for taking the time to consider my remarks.

This article proposes that the Mideast conflict between Israel and Palestine is approaching a historic fork in the road.

Down one road lies a dramatic success in which almost all the goals of all the parties are met in an irrevocable permanent manner. Down the other road lies a dramatic failure of biblical proportions. Most reading this will live to see which road is taken.

The following is a proposal which offers the parties an opportunity to take the road of peace by resolving the MidEast conflict in a decisive, permanent and timely manner.

To prepare ourselves for such a wonderful future, we must first pay the price of saying goodbye to a tragic past.



Saying Goodbye To The Past

Before we consider the solution offered below, it's important for us to be resolutely clear about what has been tried already and proven beyond not to work. As the saying goes, repeating the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is the definition of stupidity.

Any benefit a reader might receive from this article will necessarily be built upon their willingness to face a well documented fact that nothing which has been tried so far over the last six decades has succeeded in resolving the MidEast conflict.

Not war or threats of war, not negotiation, not a finger pointing blame game, not analysis and talk, not experts, not American mediation, not the management of captive populations, not economic development, not clever technology, not waiting and hoping things will somehow get better.

None of it. None of it has worked.

Despite all these endlessly repeated efforts exerted over such a long period of time by so many so capable people, Israelis still don't have the peace and security they yearn for, and the Palestinians still don't have the freedom and land they so desperately desire. Both parties may instead be careening ever closer towards an uncontrollable descent in to chaos.

If a reader can squarely face the failure of all that has come before, if they can surrender the notion that repeating the same repetitive patterns over and over will somehow bring different and better results, that reader will then be on the edge of seeing a permanent peace which can satisfy the core demands of all parties to the conflict.



The Path To A Real And Permanent Peace

Like all peoples, the Israelis long for a durable peace, security and freedom, a safe place to raise their children and build a prosperous future. The whole point of establishing the state of Israel was to secure these worthy goals.

The bad news is that such a place will never exist for Jews in the Middle East. Three major wars, multiple uprising, waves of terrorist attacks, and six decades of never ending insecurity, hostility and death prove this beyond all doubt. So much blood has been spilled, so much hatred invoked, over such a period of time, that there is now no chance of a real peace within the lifetimes of anyone currently living.

In fact, the stable secure peace that Israelis seek may not exist for anyone in the entire Middle East for a century to come, as the Arab world is not only in conflict with Israel, but with itself.

How will Israel create a true lasting peace with it's neighbors if those countries should dissolve in to religious, political and economic chaos, a possibility which is looking increasingly likely? Israel should not confuse a history of defeating it's neighbor's strengths with an ability to survive their very real weaknesses.

The path to a permanent peace will be built upon a realistic recognition that the tragedy of Zionism is that it's a very noble goal, married to a very bad plan. A great race, led to exactly the wrong place. A very understandable mistake, made by brilliant and brave people, with a potentially catastrophic outcome.

The good news is that there is an excellent solution available which could accomplish the most fundamental goals of Zionism in a breathtakingly short period of time.

The good news is that the safest, most secure and prosperous place on Earth would welcome the people of Israel with open arms.

The good news is that the Jewish people can find everything they've been seeking for centuries in the United States.



What Is The Bottom Line?

Yes, ok, I know, I'm about to lose a great many of our Israeli friends. Ok, I hear you, leaving the Holy Land will definitely not be a welcome proposal for many.

But before you go, perhaps you might help us understand....

What is most important to you?

- An ever threatened Jewish state eternally in conflict with it's crumbling neighbors?

- Or the best peace, security and prosperity available on the planet Earth for your children?

What will your grandchildren inherit from you? What is it that you want most for your descendants? What is your bottom line?



Welcome To America!

The people of the United States would welcome the ingenius Jews of Israel as fellow citizens. America has after all been Israel's best friend since the beginning.

The American West is full of empty federal land which can be shared with the Israeli people, who would undoubtably work miracles with it.

Anti-semitism is minimal in the United States, and there are already about as many Jews in the United States as there are in Israel.

This prosperous Jewish population of the United States would rush to assist the new immigrants, just as they have faithfully supported the state of Israel.

The billions of dollars currently spent each year on defending Israel can be reinvested in the transition and in improving the lives of Israelis of limited means.

The children of Israel would no longer be required to become soldiers. This benefit alone should be enough, shouldn't it?

The people of Israel would be once and for all liberated from corrupt fascist dictatorships, religious fanatics, murderous neighbors, incoming rockets, tunneling militants, the disrespect of much of the world community, and a long history of chronic discrimination, oppression, abuse and slaughter.

The people of Israel would instead become welcome members of the world's oldest democracy, and citizens of the most prosperous and secure nation on Earth.

Come to America Israel, there is no faster, more reliable and durable way to secure the fundamental goals of Zionism.

Giving up the ancient dream of Israel will be a painful price for many without question. Peace will not come for free. We can't ignore that a true sacrifice is required.

But in return for that significant sacrifice Israelis would receive the assurance that their children will not perish in the firestorm which must inevitably envelope the Middle East sooner or later if this conflict is not resolved.

This peace does not require war, death and suffering to achieve. This peace does not require danger or risk. This peace does not require endlessly unsuccessful negotiations with former and current terrorists. This peace does not require trust in pieces of paper, or the promises of those who seek Israel's extermination. This peace does not make the security of Jews dependent on what their enemies do or don't do now or in the future.

This peace does not require waiting. Why should Israelis wait even more generations for the Palestinians to give them peace, when they can grasp the peace they seek all by themselves right now?

Come to America our Israeli friends, come to America.



The Price Of Failure

We should recall that population-wise Israel is smaller than New York City. While the state of Israel contains some of the world's most capable people, eight million citizens still makes for a tiny country.

To complicate matters further, Arabs are outproducing Jews within Israel. This means that at some point Israelis will face a lose/lose choice between surrendering their Jewish state, or surrendering their democracy. Both of these outcomes would destroy the soul of Israel.

Israel has already lost the public relations war in Europe and most other parts of the world, and is steadily losing ground in United States as well. Whether this is just and fair and right does not matter. It simply does not matter. What matters is that the Palestinians are winning the decisive public relationship battle. The same underdog sympathy which was crucial to the establishment of Israel is now being aimed at the Palestinians.

And that means the people of Israel will be ever more isolated and alone within the world community as we dive deeper in to an ever more globalized 21st century. If the conflict continues endlessly, sooner or later Israel will have no friends anywhere, and 8 million Jews will fight for their survival against 200 million Arabs completely on their own. This is what losing the public relations battle inevitably entails.

We might also recall that Israel's defenders have to win every single time, forever. But Israel's enemies only have to win once, just once.

Each year that passes without a resolution to the MidEast conflict is like another turn of the pistol barrel in a game of Russian roulette. While Israel looks invulnerable now, change is the one thing we can always count on, and sooner or later the chamber will contain a bullet.

Even the ancient story of Israel teaches us that whatever the ever brave and brilliant Jews construct, the changing tides of history can quickly sweep away. It's true for all of us.

The 21st century is going to be an era of unprecedented carnage, just as previous centuries have been. Technology is racing forward at an ever accelerating rate which further empowers everybody, including the bad guys. There is little chance the great powers can do more than slow the spread of weapons of mass destruction, given that they can't even liberate themselves from those weapons.

Sooner or later the murderous bad guys will get lucky and figure out how to deploy weapons of mass destruction within the tiny country of Israel, and surely other countries as well.

One bad day, one miscalculation, one unlucky break, one failure one time, one push of a button, that's all it would take to push Israel in to chaos. Israel could be gone in a day, an hour, in the time it takes to read this article. Welcome to the 21st century.

This is an unthinkable future, but it is coming nonetheless. The Iron Dome will not stop it from coming. The IDF can not win every single battle, forever. The Israelis can not out smart everybody, always. Nobody overcomes every single challenge from now until the end of time.

I beg our Israeli friends not to confuse their amazing accomplishments of the past with an ability to manage any future which might come. Israel has too many enemies. It is too small to survive the emerging mass destruction era of the 21st century. This reality must be faced with humility if the people of Israel are to be spared a Second Holocaust. All of us across the world must surrender our hubris if we are to save our kids.

While this is a grim tale indeed, all the epic suffering coming to the Middle East can be avoided. There is an abundance of good news here for anyone who wants peace, and is willing to act decisively to achieve it.

The people of Israel can choose their children's future over an ancient Zionist dream. If they do, all the peace, security and prosperity they so desire and deserve can be theirs. Not maybe someday in future generations, but for sure, today.

Come to America our Israeli friends, come to America. You'll never find in Israel what is already waiting for you here in America right now.

When I first read this I thought it was a Joke. I now realize that you are Serious . So your idea of " peace" is intolerance and a NJA territory? All we hear from the other side is how the Israelis are " racists and intolerant" Please tell us why it's O.K for the Arabs to feel this way? Now, THAT is racist

 

[Daniyel]

Truthfully, I don't have great hopes either, but this is what I know how to do so I'm doing it. I agree I can learn by talking with any Israeli, so I'm working on that as well.
You are most likely right. However, I perceive Israelis to be very intelligent clear eyed realists, especially about security, and I sincerely believe what I've suggested is the only plan which can guarantee the security of Mideast Jews.

The Israeli Anthem (The Hope) fits great as answer on many cases, being a free nation in our land, this is the hope that is living within us for 2,000 years.. Security is a great reason which is why I said considering the support of the US is great, but living in fear doesn't worth living at all.
The realistic solution like I said, cannot come from our side, it can only come by providing personal example to our old rival neighbors Egypt and Jordan which we finally made peace with, and they will provide the example for Sudan, Iran, Iraq, and so on..
When you are pressed against the wall, you can come with great ideas and living the entire Israel as I explained before can be a disaster to the entire M.E./Europe - moreover it shows the terrorism worth, you can never show weakness (and with that I must disagree with what we got used to in Israel) - negotiating with terrorism, being forced to violent solution is better as you know its wrong but you have no other way out, but still this is the best solution for the short and long run, surrendering to terrorism will only grow them greedy and vicious, "the exchange stakes" for example were used to be 1 terrorist for 1 soldier, Gilad Shalit was traded for 1027 convicted terrorists..Hezbullah also fired to Israel few days ago, and call the UN to recognize it as government in Lebanon (Like Hamas in Gaza) - don't forget that, terrorism must be eradicated to the very last one.
The security of Israel is vulnerable but so far we only keep on achieving new levels, we better fight when we have the chance, giving up now is like stopping a long race few steps before the end line.. again, I think this is a great idea as for plan B, because this is only a temporarily one - the day the US will suffer against massive terror attacks would come sooner or later specially while weakening the western civilization presence in the M.E.

To me, the question boils down to this. What are Israelis most connected to? The state of Israel? Or their own children? Defending Israel means putting one's children at risk. Moving to America doesn't. Why put one's children at risk defending Israel if even better security can be easily obtained elsewhere? It doesn't make sense to me.
-I'll try to answer these together-
As I understand it, the whole point of the state of Israel is to protect the Jewish people. It seems a great many people have become so distracted by a particular chosen means (Israel) that they've forgotten all about the desired end (security).

Its the unique connection of both legacy and religion - Jews by 99% remained Jewish so we (the majority) are mainly a huge ancient family, all the bible (I think there are 40% religious Jewish in Israel..not sure about the number) and some of the commands God gave can only be fulfilled in Israel, we believe the third temple will built fall from the sky to where the two past temples been and destroyed, when the Messiah will come (Temple Mount - most sacred place for the Jewish), entire legacy of 3,500 years is in this very land, Imagine, giving Washington DC with all the American legacy to Bin Laden for a promise to keep ceasefire/peace.
Israel is also very unique piece of land, from the desert to snowy mountains to the middle terrain sea with our most beloved city Jerusalem, so many died to protect it, great empires that ruled the ancient world couldn't separate us from Israel the promised land, you believe that because of some Palestinians we would leave Israel? we are used to being threat by bigger and stronger enemies, and as Trumpeldor said "Its worth dying for Israel".
Beyond that the Israeli society is very unique, we are all Jews, but we all come from other places around the globe, in 67 years we overcome all stereotypes and created a society of many colors and customs, and language, the Israeli society is part of Israel just like the Americans are part of America, regardless of color, race, and religion, except that here the Zionists established Israel share the same race - Jew and because the dark history it is obvious the Jews need their own country, small as it is we don't ask much but to be left alone - but even then people gather to kill us, you think the people in Europe safer than in Israel?
If you have any specific question it would be easier, because summarizing everything with my lame English is not very informative after all

Yes, my thoughts exactly. The problem I see for the IDF is that the accelerating advance of technology gives advantage to attackers and those with nothing to lose. The breathtaking speed and power of future conflicts means a momentary loss of advantage can quickly result in a permanent disaster. There is no room for error, a principle Israelis will be well aware of. This will be increasingly true for all countries, but especially for tiny countries.

We are very well aware of that principle, the size issue I'll leave behind because smaller size can be easily guarded, but easily nuked, and this is a very complicated military issue - not political..(You'll also understand the next quote connection to it)
The entire accelerating process is to my humble opinion is what we should relay on, this is what we can do, and meanwhile wait for the M.E. to chill and finally step forward.
I remember when I was 16 years old I never dreamed about having my own phone in my room, now(6 years later) I'm trying to get rid of my mobile phone which is more like my TV and Camera and laptop together, but smaller than all of them and every month or two my mobile gets another "very" to the "old" title , the future is not something you can predict to evaluate the long shot crisis you predict, because the future can also be what we call today science fiction, and this would be the present for us in the future, yet we must look forward to achieve it, instead of preventing it from ever occurring.

and if you think 8 million illegal aliens is a problem, think about 300,000,000 radical Muslims in the middle east only.

From an American point of view 8 million Jews, however capable they indeed are, can not protect America from whatever mass chaos may explode in the Middle East. We can protect you by offering you a way out of there, but you are too small to protect us.
However, importing Israeli genius in to America would be a great bonanza for us, imho. You are far more useful to us here than you can ever be there.
In the past I've had neighbors with relentlessly barking dogs, which tends to really piss me off. Because I couldn't afford to move, I had to engage in years of patient neighbor diplomacy which was only somewhat effective. Despite my best efforts, I still had to eat a lot of barking.
Why would I keep bothering with this pain in the butt if I won the lottery?

I was talking about 8 million illegal aliens from south America..you see, it took 10 people to kill 3,000 Americans, can you imagine the risk 300,000,000 radical Muslims uniting against America can cause? - I think I explained why Israel is so important for the defense of the US, I think you missed that part, anyway with all the great intentions, it is not a solution.
Combine all the points:
1.The Jews without a country of their own.
2.The Effect of surrendering to terrorism.
3.The M.E. crisis and cure.
4.The Israeli bond to Israel.
5.The need of US to develop western societies.
And take a look how it work with your solution, all the terms fulfilled? lets have a look.
1.The Jews have a shelter in the US -works great, the US is very friendly for Jews.
2.The Effect of surrendering to terrorism - would be an international disaster encouraging others as well.
3.The M.E. crisis so far have no better solutions regarding the terrorism issue and the instability except pushing for progress, so I think that one doesn't fit your solution.
4.The Israelis bond to Israel cannot be broken again, the solution will ruin people no matter what you'll offer them (take my example, I got US citizenship, but I don't want to go anywhere else except Israel, leaving Israel would completely destroy me) - Doesn't fit your solution.
5.The need of the US to develop western societies - abandoning Israel would be an international embarrassment to the US, massive loss of resource, and worse of all create a rift between any possible western society to the US, not to mention M.E.

Peace,
Danny.

[MENTION=50357]Typist[/MENTION]

 

[teddyearp]

[MENTION=49937]Daniyel[/MENTION], that has to be one of the best posts I read here. Almost brought me to tears. And whoever calls your angleet lo kol cov tov (or lame) can just . . . .

[MENTION=50357]Typist[/MENTION]: you certainly have a decent idea, but it is poorly based in a fantasy. As has been posted, the Jews have ties to that area of the world that goes back thousands of years. Not only that, but even with the conflict 'raging' about them, they have put too much hard work into improving the land. On a side note, I sometimes suspect that there was more to the Balfour Declaration than what in on the surface. We know there is no way the the 'zionists' were able to 'make' Britain allow it; how about this theory? Maybe the Brits actually allowed it out of their possible own anti-semitism?

 

[ninja007]

there can never be peace when one side values life and the other doesn't.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Greetings All,

Thank you for taking the time to consider my remarks.

This article proposes that the Mideast conflict between Israel and Palestine is approaching a historic fork in the road.

Your proposed solution fails from internal invalidity. Let me explain.

You've crossed the bridge and now accept the notion of forced ethnic cleansing as a viable solution to the problems. OK, if that's on the table, then the more logical population to move out of the land is the Palestinians.

1.) They're poorer than the Israelis. Who is going to compensate the Israelis for their losses? The asset base of Israel is pretty impressive. The asset base of the Gaza Strip is pretty pathetic. It's cheaper to move the Palestinians.

2.) Israelis have SHOWN the world that they could build a first-world civilization in the midst of poor, dysfunctional neighboring cultures. To turn over that asset base to Palestinians would insure that this new country would soon go the way of Detroit. The world becomes poorer as a result. The once prosperous, and functional, land of Israel becomes a dysfunctional land just like neighboring societies.

3.)Jews need a land of their own. For a variety of reasons there are ALWAYS problems when Jews mingle with other civilizations because Jews stand apart. That's how they remain a cohesive ethnic and religious group after thousands of years and after being dispersed around the world. Nothing changes if they all move to America - they become strangers in a strange land. These Israelis want to be Israelis, not Americans, so they stand apart from American Jews who at least have an American identity. America doesn't need this headache to add to it's mounting multicultural problems.

4.) The population which is moved should be moved in such a manner as to reduce dislocation effects. Israelis are not Americans, so plopping them down into American moves them into an alien culture. However, moving the Palestinians into Jordan, Syria and Egypt drastically reduces the dislocation effect. The religion is the same, the cultures are not as widely disparate, etc. In other words, the Palestinians would have an easier time adjusting.

5.) The freed up land in Gaza and the West Bank could be put to HIGHER USE by Israelis. This makes the world wealthier and more culturally enriched.

6.) Egypt has shown that it is possible to maintain peace with Israel, so we know that peace is possible. Neighboring nations are at peace with Israel. The problem here is the Palestinians and the continuing conflict. Remove them from the borders of Israel and you also remove the tension from within the borders. Now when the Palestinians act up they're defying the authority of the rulers of their new homes, Jordan and Egypt and other countries which have taken them in. This reduces the role of Israel as the "bad guy" and shifts some of that to fellow Muslims. This improves the reputation of Israel in the world and shows the rest of the world that the problem has always been with troublesome Palestinians who are now causing trouble in their new lands by trying to launch attacks on Israel, and quite likely against their new hosts for the crime of "not being at war with Israel."

If you're going to cleanse a region of people, the stronger argument is to move the Palestinians.

 

[Politico]

There is no solution to a 2000 year old war.

 

[Typist2]

Hello again,

First, something happened to my Typist account, can't get in to it, and so am reborn as Typist2. Another miracle from the Middle East!

Second, apologies that I can not reply to all comments.

The realistic solution like I said, cannot come from our side,

Then the the security of Middle East Jews will be forever dependent on your enemies, and what and when they do or don't do. My plan liberates you entirely from your enemies, so that what they do or don't do can hereafter be ignored.

Which is a more serious security strategy? Being dependent on your enemies? Or being independent of them?

it can only come by providing personal example to our old rival neighbors

Apologies, but this is the highest form of fantasy. All throughout the Arab Spring not a single Arab democrat has carried a sign that said, "Let's Be More Like Israel!" Sorry to be ruthless here, but honestly, if Israel is offering pitches like this, that could explain why they are losing the global public relations battle.

surrendering to terrorism will only grow them greedy and vicious,

I'm sorry to report that most people around the world do not see Israel as manning the front line against terrorists and defending the rest of us, but as the nation handing the terrorists their very best talking points on a silver platter.

This is not a statement of who is right and who is wrong, but just a reporting of the public relations reality. Every time an Israel F-15 kills some civilians, the terrorists win, and they get to further promote the message that every Israeli bomb comes with a sticker that says "Made In America".

Point being, your war with the Palestinians is most certainly not advancing American security interests. We stand behind you because we are friends, not because you are doing us a favor.

Israel is also very unique piece of land, from the desert to snowy mountains to the middle terrain sea with our most beloved city Jerusalem,

Yes, this is how I see the conflict too. It's not really a battle for security, as far better security would be available in America. And it's not a battle for land, as there is far more land available in America too. All the fighting and dying is so that a particular group of people can own a specific piece of land.

I'm not saying this is necessarily wrong, but I think we should try to be clear about the nature of the conflict, and stop talking about security for the Jews, because Israel is one of the worst places in the world to find security.

I would however agree that obviously it is impossible to relocate Jerusalem to Montana so if you simply must have that particular piece of ground, then I guess there is no alternative other than a lot of people having to die so you can have it.

Beyond that the Israeli society is very unique, we are all Jews, but we all come from other places around the globe,

Yes, I do understand that this is a powerful glue that binds you all together. However, if you don't know already, please understand that the Mormons have created a place in America (Utah) that is custom made for their cultural experience. They don't have 100% control, but they've been thriving there for a long time now. An intensely Jewish experience is available in America.

you think the people in Europe safer than in Israel?

Um, the people in Europe are not chronically at war with their neighbors, so yes, safer.

If you have any specific question it would be easier, because summarizing everything with my lame English is not very informative after all

You're doing a lot better in English than I could do in Yiddish. Shalom! And now I'm out of things to say.

and meanwhile wait for the M.E. to chill

You're going to be waiting a very long time. Your grandchildren's grandchildren will not experience the real peace you seek.

I think I explained why Israel is so important for the defense of the US,

You should try again. I see Israel as great friends, who are a security (and financial) liability we undertake as part of that friendship. Not charity, but a burden we willingly carry.

I don't personally resent that burden, but you should remember that one of our weaknesses as Americans is that we are pretty impatient people, and the conflict you are engaged in has been going on longer than most of us have been alive. This creates a political dynamic that is not in your favor.

Observe the American relationship with Iraq. First we got all wound up about solving the problem and exerted a HUGE amount of energy, treasure and political capital to try to fix Iraq. We're really good at getting all wound up about impossible missions.

But watch what happened next. When we didn't get success in a pretty short period of time, we mostly washed our hands of the whole business. Most Americans now don't really care what happens in Iraq. If the Islamic State takes over, oh well, that's life. That's the mindset most Americans have now.

I'm not saying this is so great, impatience is indeed a flaw in our national character. I'm just trying to help you understand the American mind. We tend to wash our hands of situations we can't do anything about. We're kind of like teenagers, lots of energy, but not too much maturity or patience.

The strained relations between Obama and Netanyahu are likely a just a small beginning of a new political culture that will probably emerge gradually over time. As North American energy reserves are further developed more and more people here are likely to start asking why we are engaged in the Middle East.

Ok, that's enough for now. Thanks for the ongoing dialog.

 

[Typist2]

You've crossed the bridge and now accept the notion of forced ethnic cleansing as a viable solution to the problems.

When did I say even the slightest thing about a forced ethnic cleansing??? I'm sorry, you'll have to do better, as I can't invest time in posts where the poster is arguing against assertions of their own invention.

I'm entirely agreeable that anybody should debate what I did actually say.

 

[Typist2]

Typist, you certainly have a decent idea, but it is poorly based in a fantasy.

Thank you for considering my post. My reasoning goes like this. Everything that is easy and obvious has been tried repeatedly for decades, and not worked. Israel still doesn't have the peace it seeks, and the Palestinians still don't have their freedom.

Any solution that could actually resolve the conflict will necessarily first appear to be totally unrealistic, because it anybody thought it was realistic, it would have already been tried.

As has been posted, the Jews have ties to that area of the world that goes back thousands of years.

Well, not to argue, but Jews as a group did abandon that land for 2 thousand years, so the ties couldn't have been that strong.

Not only that, but even with the conflict 'raging' about them, they have put too much hard work into improving the land.

Yes, I do get this. It's very very hard to give up anything someone has put that much work in to. It would be the same for me. I suspect that few in Israel will be willing to make such a huge sacrifice until they are able to see the future I predict.

The Middle East is a house about to burn down, and you guys are right in the middle of it. Syria, Iraq, Libya, probably the Gulf States before too much longer, all going up in flames.

As example, Syria will be much weaker when all the horrors finally end, which at first sounds like a security bonus for Israel. But Syrian tanks will be replaced by millions of traumatized half insane Syrians living in a failed state. A Somalia on your doorstep. The hatred cauldron will be bubbling hot indeed, and there will be very many people with nothing left to lose.

My main premise is that while Israel has been brilliant at defeating the Arab's strengths, you will not be able to manage their weaknesses. Imho, the main threat to Israeli security is a very understandable Israeli hubris.

Do you know the "Peter Principle"? It states that people get promoted until they finally reach a job position that they can't handle.