A Step Closer to Death Panels

[Revere]

You don't need government to cut a deal for your end of life care.

 

[xotoxi]

Real men,like my Dad the former Marine Captain, do not "look for anything that will keep them alive".
He pulled allof the tubes out of his mouth last May at age 88. He had a living will that stated NO resusitation and the medical thief con artists hooked him up anyway.
Real men do not want life support or greedy hospitals and doctors getting rich off of the taxpayers when they are very old.
That is the damn problem. People want to keep Gramps and Granny alive at the government tit until 109 if they could.
And the medical industry growing at 18% again this year when GNP is at 2% growth are willing to oblige.
WAKE THE FUCK UP DUMBASS AMERICANS.

Too many people in America are afraid of dying. There is a "keep him alive at all costs" attitude, even when there is no hope and no quality of life.

And with the overriding philosophy of never giving up and allowing death to occur ends up frigthening people into not being brave enough to make that decision...or families not brave enough to have that discussion.

There is not enough use of hospice...many people remain in pain and agony, going through useless and worthless treatment, much longer than is necessary. Why not live your final days or weeks in comfort, at home, with your family?

Let me tell you about the Hope Hospice in Fort Myers, Florida. This is exactly what they told me before Dad died. "We would like to be able to inform the families of terminally ill patients what they can do to make plans and the legal options available such as living wills and DNR orders but we have been accused of creating death panels"
Verbatim.
After 5 days and over 100K of the taxpayers $ WASTED, WITH A DNR ORDER IN PLACE, they finally unhooked Dad, the WWII Marine Captain on May 30, 2010 MEMORIAL DAY.
He died 5 minutes later LIKE HE WANTED TO AND HAD MADE PLANS TO DO SO.
The hospital and the doctors there were CROOKS.
I offered to pay the hospice the $200 they want to receive under the Obama bill,which was taken out with the preposterous "death panel" bull shit, and they refused any payment.
I am a Republican.
WAKE UP DUMBASS AMERICANS.

That sounded like a very bad experience and your dad's care was handled improperly, and I'm sorry to hear it happened.

However, in my experience in the places where I have worked and in my own interaction with patients in these situations, it is much more caring. I have only had excellent interactions with and feedback about hospice.

 

[xotoxi]

You don't need government to cut a deal for your end of life care.

What is with you and your little pointless one liners?

What do you mean by "cut a deal"?

If you are of Medicare age, then chance are the government is going to be paying for your end of life care? So I don't know what "cut a deal" means.

 

[shintao]

Do physicians get rich on Medicare?

From what I see, M-patients are what keep them alive, because there isn't enough private patients to pay all the bills. I had a Dr. caught in a M-patient sting, and it financially hurt him badly. And too, a lot of Dr.s give extra hours to hospitals so all bases are covered, and if they are financially hurting they need to be working in their regular practice instead.

 

[xotoxi]

Do physicians get rich on Medicare?

Do physicians get rich?

Or are they reimbursed for their work?

Those who commit fraud get rich.

Those who care for patients make a living.

 

[Gadawg73]

Too many people in America are afraid of dying. There is a "keep him alive at all costs" attitude, even when there is no hope and no quality of life.

And with the overriding philosophy of never giving up and allowing death to occur ends up frigthening people into not being brave enough to make that decision...or families not brave enough to have that discussion.

There is not enough use of hospice...many people remain in pain and agony, going through useless and worthless treatment, much longer than is necessary. Why not live your final days or weeks in comfort, at home, with your family?

Let me tell you about the Hope Hospice in Fort Myers, Florida. This is exactly what they told me before Dad died. "We would like to be able to inform the families of terminally ill patients what they can do to make plans and the legal options available such as living wills and DNR orders but we have been accused of creating death panels"
Verbatim.
After 5 days and over 100K of the taxpayers $ WASTED, WITH A DNR ORDER IN PLACE, they finally unhooked Dad, the WWII Marine Captain on May 30, 2010 MEMORIAL DAY.
He died 5 minutes later LIKE HE WANTED TO AND HAD MADE PLANS TO DO SO.
The hospital and the doctors there were CROOKS.
I offered to pay the hospice the $200 they want to receive under the Obama bill,which was taken out with the preposterous "death panel" bull shit, and they refused any payment.
I am a Republican.
WAKE UP DUMBASS AMERICANS.

That sounded like a very bad experience and your dad's care was handled improperly, and I'm sorry to hear it happened.

However, in my experience in the places where I have worked and in my own interaction with patients in these situations, it is much more caring. I have only had excellent interactions with and feedback about hospice.

The nurses were first class at Lee Memorial and Gulf Coast which is also a part of Lee Memorial. One of the treating doctors was first class but we played HELL to get them to honor the in place DNR order. They played the logistics game. I live in north Georgia and would fly into Fort Myers. The last time he went in on a Thursday night and it was late Friday night when I got there. Fought with them Saturday and Sunday and heard the "Well, it is the weekend and we have to speak with legal" BS. Saturday he pulled it allout and the doctor stated he was "agitated" I almost pile drived the turd. Dad carried a Right to Die card in his wallet with his name on it also!
Finally, after I threatened to take them before a sitting judge for an order on Monday with their idiot legal staff, they unhooked Dad and tried to play the guilt card on me like I heard Revere do here. "Well, it is your call" Bull Shit.
It was my father's call and real men answer the call and do what is ethical and moral.

 

[xotoxi]

bigrednck...do you think that every medical procedure should be available to any American if they want it? Are you against ANY limits being drawn?

Do you think that a 99 year old woman with kidney failure on dialysis should receive a kidney transplant?

If not, why not? If so, why?

I asked first
What value do you place on life? What is the cut off?

The value that I place on life is whatever the patient places on their life. I cannot value someone any more than they value themselves. And I will do for them whatever they need within my abilities.

The cut off is when they die.

 

[Gadawg73]

The hospice folks were fantastic. Dad died within 5 minutes after unhooked so he didn't need them but I had it set up for him to go.
The hospice folks are direct competition to the doctors and hospitals. They hate the hospice folks.
Concerning the kidney transplants.
Elderly are the worst candidates for kidney transplants as their failure rate is off the map.
But guess what sports fans. Elderly kidney transplants HAVE DOUBLED over the last decade.
And there is a shortage for kids and younger adults.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
WAKE UP DUMBASS AMERICANS.

 

[xotoxi]

Let me tell you about the Hope Hospice in Fort Myers, Florida. This is exactly what they told me before Dad died. "We would like to be able to inform the families of terminally ill patients what they can do to make plans and the legal options available such as living wills and DNR orders but we have been accused of creating death panels"
Verbatim.
After 5 days and over 100K of the taxpayers $ WASTED, WITH A DNR ORDER IN PLACE, they finally unhooked Dad, the WWII Marine Captain on May 30, 2010 MEMORIAL DAY.
He died 5 minutes later LIKE HE WANTED TO AND HAD MADE PLANS TO DO SO.
The hospital and the doctors there were CROOKS.
I offered to pay the hospice the $200 they want to receive under the Obama bill,which was taken out with the preposterous "death panel" bull shit, and they refused any payment.
I am a Republican.
WAKE UP DUMBASS AMERICANS.

That sounded like a very bad experience and your dad's care was handled improperly, and I'm sorry to hear it happened.

However, in my experience in the places where I have worked and in my own interaction with patients in these situations, it is much more caring. I have only had excellent interactions with and feedback about hospice.

The nurses were first class at Lee Memorial and Gulf Coast which is also a part of Lee Memorial. One of the treating doctors was first class but we played HELL to get them to honor the in place DNR order. They played the logistics game. I live in north Georgia and would fly into Fort Myers. The last time he went in on a Thursday night and it was late Friday night when I got there. Fought with them Saturday and Sunday and heard the "Well, it is the weekend and we have to speak with legal" BS. Saturday he pulled it allout and the doctor stated he was "agitated" I almost pile drived the turd. Dad carried a Right to Die card in his wallet with his name on it also!
Finally, after I threatened to take them before a sitting judge for an order on Monday with their idiot legal staff, they unhooked Dad and tried to play the guilt card on me like I heard Revere do here. "Well, it is your call" Bull Shit.
It was my father's call and real men answer the call and do what is ethical and moral.

As far as I am concerned, what they did is malpractice.

The initial intubation is an acceptable mistake IMHO, if they did not have DNR documentation at the time of admission. But once it was produced and after the family and the patient (because he was alert?) decided that they wanted the tubes removed, they should have been removed as soon as safely possible.

If the DNR documentation was available and known, and they still intubated, then they are setting themselves up for a world of hurt.

 

[Gadawg73]

That sounded like a very bad experience and your dad's care was handled improperly, and I'm sorry to hear it happened.

However, in my experience in the places where I have worked and in my own interaction with patients in these situations, it is much more caring. I have only had excellent interactions with and feedback about hospice.

The nurses were first class at Lee Memorial and Gulf Coast which is also a part of Lee Memorial. One of the treating doctors was first class but we played HELL to get them to honor the in place DNR order. They played the logistics game. I live in north Georgia and would fly into Fort Myers. The last time he went in on a Thursday night and it was late Friday night when I got there. Fought with them Saturday and Sunday and heard the "Well, it is the weekend and we have to speak with legal" BS. Saturday he pulled it allout and the doctor stated he was "agitated" I almost pile drived the turd. Dad carried a Right to Die card in his wallet with his name on it also!
Finally, after I threatened to take them before a sitting judge for an order on Monday with their idiot legal staff, they unhooked Dad and tried to play the guilt card on me like I heard Revere do here. "Well, it is your call" Bull Shit.
It was my father's call and real men answer the call and do what is ethical and moral.

As far as I am concerned, what they did is malpractice.

The initial intubation is an acceptable mistake IMHO, if they did not have DNR documentation at the time of admission. But once it was produced and after the family and the patient (because he was alert?) decided that they wanted the tubes removed, they should have been removed as soon as safely possible.

If the DNR documentation was available and known, and they still intubated, then they are setting themselves up for a world of hurt.

Might be why they are not asking for ANY payment of what Medicare would not cover AFTER the May 15 entry.
See, the reason my family was so pissed is because Dad was in the same hospital May 6 and April. The DNR order was there then. And then he would get transfered to the nursing home for his occupational therapy and it would disapear.
And get this. The last time guess where they sent him from the nursing home which is 400 yards from Lee Memorial on Cleveland Ave. in Ft. Myers?
They sent him 8 miles across town to Gulf Hospital. That is a division of Lee but the DNR order was not sent there by the nursing home as they stated "Well, we do not know what happened".
Imagine that.
We are not going to sue for malpractice. The old Marine would not want that and we do not want any $$$.
I have declined to pay the other therapy bills and crap that has come in from folks we have never even heard of. Home health folks at another $125.00 a hour.
Unbelievable is an understatement.
But my son had ACL surgery today and we were very pleased and happy. The surgeon did a great job. First class all the way.

 

[shintao]

The hospice folks were fantastic. Dad died within 5 minutes after unhooked so he didn't need them but I had it set up for him to go.
The hospice folks are direct competition to the doctors and hospitals. They hate the hospice folks.
Concerning the kidney transplants.
Elderly are the worst candidates for kidney transplants as their failure rate is off the map.
But guess what sports fans. Elderly kidney transplants HAVE DOUBLED over the last decade.
And there is a shortage for kids and younger adults.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
WAKE UP DUMBASS AMERICANS.

Sounds like cloning is in order. I wonder why a pig kidney or artificial kidney would not work?

 

[shintao]

That sounded like a very bad experience and your dad's care was handled improperly, and I'm sorry to hear it happened.

However, in my experience in the places where I have worked and in my own interaction with patients in these situations, it is much more caring. I have only had excellent interactions with and feedback about hospice.

The nurses were first class at Lee Memorial and Gulf Coast which is also a part of Lee Memorial. One of the treating doctors was first class but we played HELL to get them to honor the in place DNR order. They played the logistics game. I live in north Georgia and would fly into Fort Myers. The last time he went in on a Thursday night and it was late Friday night when I got there. Fought with them Saturday and Sunday and heard the "Well, it is the weekend and we have to speak with legal" BS. Saturday he pulled it allout and the doctor stated he was "agitated" I almost pile drived the turd. Dad carried a Right to Die card in his wallet with his name on it also!
Finally, after I threatened to take them before a sitting judge for an order on Monday with their idiot legal staff, they unhooked Dad and tried to play the guilt card on me like I heard Revere do here. "Well, it is your call" Bull Shit.
It was my father's call and real men answer the call and do what is ethical and moral.

As far as I am concerned, what they did is malpractice.

The initial intubation is an acceptable mistake IMHO, if they did not have DNR documentation at the time of admission. But once it was produced and after the family and the patient (because he was alert?) decided that they wanted the tubes removed, they should have been removed as soon as safely possible.

If the DNR documentation was available and known, and they still intubated, then they are setting themselves up for a world of hurt.

I was wondering how often do you see cases of tube scars breaking and causing a hernia rupture? Who would be responsible for for such a thing?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

bigrednck...do you think that every medical procedure should be available to any American if they want it? Are you against ANY limits being drawn?

Do you think that a 99 year old woman with kidney failure on dialysis should receive a kidney transplant?

If not, why not? If so, why?

I asked first
What value do you place on life? What is the cut off?

The value that I place on life is whatever the patient places on their life. I cannot value someone any more than they value themselves. And I will do for them whatever they need within my abilities.

The cut off is when they die.

Thank you for your answer. But isn't rationing placing limited value on human life? Certain drugs work on people differantly., Some women who were told they have two weeks to live before they started taking Avastan are still alive three to five years later. And those women who have little children were allowed to spend an additional few years with them.

 

[uscitizen]

I want to know what price or value do you place another human beings life? Rationing will be a violation of the Constitution. But to demorcrats it really doesn't matter because obamacare is unconstitutional.

bigrednck...do you think that every medical procedure should be available to any American if they want it? Are you against ANY limits being drawn?

Do you think that a 99 year old woman with kidney failure on dialysis should receive a kidney transplant?

If not, why not? If so, why?

hutoxi what is the value of life? What price is the cut off?

So why are you against socialized medicine?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

bigrednck...do you think that every medical procedure should be available to any American if they want it? Are you against ANY limits being drawn?

Do you think that a 99 year old woman with kidney failure on dialysis should receive a kidney transplant?

If not, why not? If so, why?

hutoxi what is the value of life? What price is the cut off?

So why are you against socialized medicine?

So you agree socialized medicine rations healthcare?

 

[xotoxi]

I asked first
What value do you place on life? What is the cut off?

The value that I place on life is whatever the patient places on their life. I cannot value someone any more than they value themselves. And I will do for them whatever they need within my abilities.

The cut off is when they die.

Thank you for your answer. But isn't rationing placing limited value on human life? Certain drugs work on people differantly., Some women who were told they have two weeks to live before they started taking Avastan are still alive three to five years later. And those women who have little children were allowed to spend an additional few years with them.

There is a problem when you link the "value" of human life to monetary value. As I see it, they are separate and non-compatable units of measure.

Most (or many) insurance policies have lifetime maximum benefits. I am not sure if Medicare has that or not. Is that immoral? Or is that just business?

And when it comes to the practice of medicine and pharmaceuticals, we use studies and science to determine what medications can and should be used for. Of course with any medication, some people will respond very well, far better than most in the study. On the other end, some people may die from the medication. For a med to be improved, the former should be maximized and the latter should be minimized.

In the case of avastin for BC, there were some people who responded really well, but the population of the study did not. If there was some way of determining beforehand (a blood test or something) who would likely respond well to the med, you can be assured that the med would be approved for those the would be responders.

However, regardless of the approval, it is not illegal for the med to be used for breast cancer. It is just that insurance would likely no pay for it.

 

[Ravi]

Most (or many) insurance policies have lifetime maximum benefits. I am not sure if Medicare has that or not. Is that immoral? Or is that just business?

Part of the health care reform package was to disallow insurance companies from having lifetime benefits caps. I received a notice from mine a couple of months ago letting me know this fact.

But they are still free to deny spending money on keeping a ninety-five year old alive for three months at great cost.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The value that I place on life is whatever the patient places on their life. I cannot value someone any more than they value themselves. And I will do for them whatever they need within my abilities.

The cut off is when they die.

Thank you for your answer. But isn't rationing placing limited value on human life? Certain drugs work on people differantly., Some women who were told they have two weeks to live before they started taking Avastan are still alive three to five years later. And those women who have little children were allowed to spend an additional few years with them.

There is a problem when you link the "value" of human life to monetary value. As I see it, they are separate and non-compatable units of measure.

Most (or many) insurance policies have lifetime maximum benefits. I am not sure if Medicare has that or not. Is that immoral? Or is that just business?

And when it comes to the practice of medicine and pharmaceuticals, we use studies and science to determine what medications can and should be used for. Of course with any medication, some people will respond very well, far better than most in the study. On the other end, some people may die from the medication. For a med to be improved, the former should be maximized and the latter should be minimized.

In the case of avastin for BC, there were some people who responded really well, but the population of the study did not. If there was some way of determining beforehand (a blood test or something) who would likely respond well to the med, you can be assured that the med would be approved for those the would be responders.

However, regardless of the approval, it is not illegal for the med to be used for breast cancer. It is just that insurance would likely no pay for it.

There is a problem when you link the "value" of human life to monetary value. As I see it, they are separate and non-compatable units of measure.

When you start rationing saying someone can or cannot have certain care on medicine because of cost that is placing monetary value on human life. It is my opinion that all medicine should be accesable to the general public. Let the people decide. I recall around 33% of people who used avastin have lived longer than expected. without it.

 

[Affrayer]

Death panels? People, if you're viewing as a death panel, a group of people who decide what gets what in terms of medicine and/or health care, we've always had them.

So you're saying that when Palin accused Obama's health care reform of creating death panels, she was lying through her teeth?

 

[Gadawg73]

Death panels? People, if you're viewing as a death panel, a group of people who decide what gets what in terms of medicine and/or health care, we've always had them.

So you're saying that when Palin accused Obama's health care reform of creating death panels, she was lying through her teeth?

I didn't have to say it. Both of my Republican Senators, Isackson and Chambliss said it.
When a doctor informs a patient that they can set up a living will that puts in place a DNR order to not have life saving measures taken when they are terminally ill,which is what the bill stated, that is not a death panel. The bill authorized $200 payment to the doctor and a board to oversee that.
Everyone knows there were no death panels in that bill. That was all made. There is no mention of any death panelin the bill.
Flawed as it is.