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I'm not trying to make the point that it actually is going to or should happen or is even feasable that fathers should be allowed to abandon their children. I would never advocate that, being a victim of such treatment myself. What I'm trying to glean is the why it is the way it is and point out the inconsistency with the current frame of looking at a fetus. FRAME: People are supposed to have equal rights. If a fetus is not considered a person (it is most certainly alive and seperate from it's mother) it is acceptable for the mother to choose to terminate or not terminate her pregnacy with or without the consideration of the potential father. The mother carries the fetus for 9 months, the choice of birthing it results in a live long commitment.
It's hard to carry without bringing feminism into the mix (which I have only done when debating a feminist on it). When you aren't dealing with feminism you still have the address the fact that the frame is not fair, and that a fetus magically become a child when it comes out of the womb, carrying with it the responsibility of parenthood. You can't say "O tought life isn't fair" and still advocate abortion because abortions also disenfranchise the child by taking it's life violating as much it's right to life as a womans right to control what she does with her body. If the fetus isn't a child and can be aborted, then the right should exsist to relinquish parental right and responsibility during the time that it isn't a person and that relinquishing should carry over to when it is a person. You can't have abortions and say the fetus isn't a person without allowing men to not care for their children. You can consider it a child and force responsibility without realizing abortions are killing a child and infringing on it's rights.
Yep. Mother abandons child at airport. Mother probably gets arrested. Father??? No one ever thinks to track him down and arrest him.
Plus there's always stories about single mothers leaving young children alone to work or go to the laundry mat. If something goes wrong, who abandoned the child? Both of them. Who gets punished? The mother.
um, Ravir.. Please don't start pulling an Alliebaba. Would you like to post a source or are non-sequiters working out today.
I'm not trying to make the point that it actually is going to or should happen or is even feasable that fathers should be allowed to abandon their children....
...If the fetus isn't a child and can be aborted, then the right should exsist to relinquish parental right and responsibility during the time that it isn't a person and that relinquishing should carry over to when it is a person.
Next time I see an article that reflects either of those situations I'll post it for you.
I don't see what it has to do with feminism. The point is, if something isn't living there is no custody fight over it. Once it's alive, the custody fight can begin. You act as if a mother gets the option to abandon a living child. I've got news for you...she doesn't either.
I removed the superfluous verbiage to juxtapose your glaringly contradictory statements.
No charge.
According to Hammer (and aparently Shogun too), if a man knocks up a woman, he should be allowed to absolve himself of responsibility for the child by merely saying that he votes to terminate the pregnancy. If she decides to keep the child, he's off the hook because it wasn't his decision.
From one dude to another, that's pretty fucked up dude!
Just because I do not believe that something can or should occur does not mean that I can not defend it as a premise. If you'd read my posts you'd see that.
Just because I do not believe that something can or should occur does not mean that I can not defend it as a premise. If you'd read my posts you'd see that.
ok, and until you do then your point raised will be overruled
Fair enough. In the meantime can you show me how a woman is allowed to abandon a living child...
The point I was making about feminism isn't directly related to the topic at hand and should be ignored.
Dude a fetus is always alive. I'm sorry it is. You can't deny that. An egg is alive, a sperm is alive. When they combine the zygote is alive. It's unique unto itself (genetically) it is most certainly alive. The only thing that is ever brought into question is whether or not it is a person.
When a woman carries a child to term she is taking on implied responsiblity for the child, unless of course she makes arrangements for the child to be adopted. While she has the window of opportunity to abort the pregnancy she does have the chance to abort. Not doing so implies that she will carry it to term and take care of it. A man does not have that opportunity.
If the contract of sex (yes it is a contract) implies that responsibility for parenthood is to be assumed when the act of sex takes place then the fetus must be regarded as a child, eliminating abortion as an option. If the contract relates only to intercourse and assuming responsibility occurs only after the birth of the child (meaning it isn't a person before it's birth) making abortion acceptable (because it's now not a person) then the right to abort or refuse to accept parental responsibility (expressed by a woman by aborting and a man by not caring for the child) must be afforded upon both parties. In addition the terms (in the latter situation) can not be considered equal even if the woman carries the child for 9 months because the length of responsibility far exceeds that.
I never suggested as much. Can you quote where I have? Is a man allowed to abandon a living child?
If you consider a sperm to be the equal of a living child, I certainly hope you only have sex when you are trying to conceive.
I don't consider them equal I'm sayin that they are both alive.
No, but that seems to be where you two are going with this argument.
No, but that seems to be where you two are going with this argument.
I'm not even sure where Hammer is going with it. On the one hand he says the father should not, in reality, be allowed to abandon the child. But in some theoretical fantasyland he should be allowed to abandon the child.
