Abortion as Murder.

[Sky Dancer]

Human tissue which contains DNA is not a human being, a human person with consciousness or sentience.

The morning after pill is not murder.

 

[Jroc]

what you don't have the right to do is impose those beliefs on me. my religion says that abortion is a matter of conscience.

That is not correct abortion in Judaism is permitted only if there is a direct threat to the life of the mother by carrying the fetus to term. Were do you get this matter of conscience stuff?

 

[Sky Dancer]

There is nothing measurable about a fetus' consciousness until the 22nd week. Most abortions occur long before that.

 

[jillian]

what you don't have the right to do is impose those beliefs on me. my religion says that abortion is a matter of conscience.

That is not correct abortion in Judaism is permitted only if there is a direct threat to the life of the mother by carrying the fetus to term. Were do you get this matter of conscience stuff?

your rendition is only true in orthodox judaism. i am not orthodox. in conservative and reform judaism it is a matter of conscience.

that's where i get that "stuff". and don't presume that the way you view it is the way others view it.

have a problem with it? talk to my rabbi.

and where do you get this "direct threat" nonsense? in the same place as where men and women are seated separately? or where you buy sheitls?

and a word to the wise, child, if you're going to discuss religion with me, you might want to be more respectful.

 

[Jroc]

what you don't have the right to do is impose those beliefs on me. my religion says that abortion is a matter of conscience.

That is not correct abortion in Judaism is permitted only if there is a direct threat to the life of the mother by carrying the fetus to term. Were do you get this matter of conscience stuff?

your rendition is only true in orthodox judaism. i am not orthodox. in conservative and reform judaism it is a matter of conscience.

that's where i get that "stuff". and don't presume that the way you view it is the way others view it.

have a problem with it? talk to my rabbi.

and where do you get this "direct threat" nonsense? in the same place as where men and women are seated separately? or where you buy sheitls?

and a word to the wise, child, if you're going to discuss religion with me, you might want to be more respectful.

Were do you get this disrespectful stuff? You want to point out were that was? I dismiss most of reform Judaism as being way too liberal, but if you want to point out to me were in Jewish Law it says "abortion is a matter" of conscience, I invite you to do so.

 

[jillian]

That is not correct abortion in Judaism is permitted only if there is a direct threat to the life of the mother by carrying the fetus to term. Were do you get this matter of conscience stuff?

your rendition is only true in orthodox judaism. i am not orthodox. in conservative and reform judaism it is a matter of conscience.

that's where i get that "stuff". and don't presume that the way you view it is the way others view it.

have a problem with it? talk to my rabbi.

and where do you get this "direct threat" nonsense? in the same place as where men and women are seated separately? or where you buy sheitls?

and a word to the wise, child, if you're going to discuss religion with me, you might want to be more respectful.

Were do you get this disrespectful stuff? You want to point out were that was? I dismiss most of reform Judaism as being way too liberal, but if you want to point out to me were in Jewish Law it says "abortion is a matter" of conscience, I invite you to do so.

when you ask something as dismissively as "where do you get this stuff", it appeared disrespectful.

if you "dismiss most of judaism as being way too liberal", perhaps judaism isn't the religion for you except by birth. other beliefs might suit you better. i'm not saying that to be insulting. i'm saying that truthfully. because you can't really separate those "liberal" parts from the rest or you end up with a pretty unpleasant belief system, imo.

he things i love about judaism are the parts of it that believe in social justice, caring for others, and being tolerant.

interestingly, those are mostly the same things jesus preached that are mostly ignored by the radical right.

but in answer to your question:

In fact, the prevailing position in halacha (Jewish law) today, though restrictive, is rather lenient. It is the position argued by former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ben Zion Uziel. He declared that abortion is permissible even for what he calls "a very thin reason," meaning that one should give broad latitude to how a woman interprets "difficulty" or "injury," or "life-threatening," and even allowing an abortion in certain circumstances of great emotional anguish where there is no physical danger to the mother. But how thin is "thin"? What about the case where the child is known to be physically or mentally defective? What about the regrets after consensual adultery? Does a woman’s shame or embarrassment at the consequences of her own actions justify the termination of a pregnancy? What about the woman whose education or career will be made difficult if she has a child to look after? Is the Jewish position simply abortion on demand?

Certainly Judaism never allows abortion for birth control purposes when having a child would be simply an inconvenience or embarrassment. But in practice there remains considerable disagreement among halachic authorities and among the various streams of Judaism concerning specific cases. For example, most Orthodox authorities do not permit abortion on the grounds that a fetus is severely defective. Conservative and Reform authorities would permit aborting a physically or mentally defective fetus.

Jewish views of abortion

the one thing my rabbi always said was there are different ways to study torah..

1. literally, like the orthodox/fundamentalists
2. metaphorically, where bible stories are essentially viewed as parables.

and

3. whatever the rabbi says it means.

you should also know, and i'm pretty sure you do, that the process of studying torah is one of questioning. pat answers rarely exist. it is always "well, on one hand"... "well on the other hand"... "but what if... ".

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

nope, I am not...you can call abortion a sin, and to me, it is a sin, and a sad one at that....

but YOU throwing the murderer word around so freely is quite disturbing....do you do this so you can entice some loony toon to commit murder themselves by shooting the doctors or girls in the abortion clinics on the basis that they are justly killing/murdering... murderers?

I'll pass on that kinda stuff!

I am not certain she was already sorry for her sins....at least the Bible says no such thing....Perhaps we can presume she was but we do not know this....just as I think she was very grateful for Christ saving her life....and grateful for His forgiveness....we really can't prove that....but we can presume.....

I view it, that she had not felt sorry for the sin she had committed yet, when Christ intervened with the casting of stones....and maybe it took Him giving her forgiveness... before forgiveness was justly due... to change her, and deliver her unto repentance. I like to think that this kind and compassionate action of Christ, giving her forgiveness before it was even due, that made her love Him so much, for Him loving her so much to give this forgiveness....which lead to her to repenting and changing her lifestyle.

you know, when King David had his affair with Bathsheba, a married woman, and she got pregnant....he did not have her get an abortion....which were medicinally available at that time through specific herbs....but instead, he killed her husband...yet God kept him as King, and God did not have him killed for being a murderer? we all praise David as being the greatest King..... why? I'd say because he had more good (god) than evil (Devil) in him and was sorry for his own shortcomings and loved the Lord.

I think what you are doing is wrong Lisa....not the speaking out against abortions, but with you loosely using the label of murderers....I could be wrong, and all of this sanctimonious finger pointing and casting stones from you is fine and dandy with God/Christ, but my gut is telling me....that it would not be....

Care

TO be pro-life is to be against murder of any kind, I deal with doctors who used to murder unborn children everyday, they do not do so any more and they have no qualms about saying what they were engaging in, I am not PC, and I am not hateful for refusing to be so. Why? Because I believe in forgiveness as well. I do not use the term loosely I use it honestly, because that is what happens in abortion. And if you get a chance to work with women who have had them and had people minimize the guilt they feel over what they are living with further alienating them from feeling that anyone understands, go to a couple of funerals of women who were told it was no big deal when they knew it was then you come back to me, with your comments, I will listen intently, the ones who have been freed from it know that they are worthy of Gods love despite the fact they murdered their child. The play with words is what has blinded so many girls and women into getting duped by abortion, and when they realize what has actually happened, what they deal with is much worse than the word to describe it.

i am not saying it is not a big deal....i have consoled a few girls that have had abortions, and councilled others contemplating it.

it is not as simple as you seem to think it is, and none of the girls were murderers....they terminated their unborn offspring. Some, felt remorse after wards, some felt nothing at all....numb....some carried the baggage a few decades....it really is not some kind of thing that these girls/women were rubbing their hands together chanting goodie goodie goodie, i get to murder my child to be today.....most did not view it as a child, but as a potential child.... murder takes malice....there was no malice from these girls towards their own offspring....they were just scared by it all...at least that is what it seemed.

so, do you call these repentant women that you know.... murderers... to their face? Do you rant in front of them about these other murderous women? If you do, you should stop, imo.

The Lord works in mysterious ways....He lets humans make mistakes sometimes, so that He can bring the sorrowful to Him....imo.

Care

They call themselves that, they say I murdered my child, some do not realize it at the time because of the fluffy planned parenthood PC stuff and they deal with it later after reality sets in. I know how they viewed it and that is why I do not mince words, some do indeed think they have no "choice" the irony of it all, is they are prepared to kill their baby in hopes to solve a problem. Rant, I am being honest that is all. Which is more than what abortion advocates are, they set these women up for untold suffering and guilt and leave them to deal with it on their own.

 

[Sky Dancer]

TO be pro-life is to be against murder of any kind, I deal with doctors who used to murder unborn children everyday, they do not do so any more and they have no qualms about saying what they were engaging in, I am not PC, and I am not hateful for refusing to be so. Why? Because I believe in forgiveness as well. I do not use the term loosely I use it honestly, because that is what happens in abortion. And if you get a chance to work with women who have had them and had people minimize the guilt they feel over what they are living with further alienating them from feeling that anyone understands, go to a couple of funerals of women who were told it was no big deal when they knew it was then you come back to me, with your comments, I will listen intently, the ones who have been freed from it know that they are worthy of Gods love despite the fact they murdered their child. The play with words is what has blinded so many girls and women into getting duped by abortion, and when they realize what has actually happened, what they deal with is much worse than the word to describe it.

i am not saying it is not a big deal....i have consoled a few girls that have had abortions, and councilled others contemplating it.

it is not as simple as you seem to think it is, and none of the girls were murderers....they terminated their unborn offspring. Some, felt remorse after wards, some felt nothing at all....numb....some carried the baggage a few decades....it really is not some kind of thing that these girls/women were rubbing their hands together chanting goodie goodie goodie, i get to murder my child to be today.....most did not view it as a child, but as a potential child.... murder takes malice....there was no malice from these girls towards their own offspring....they were just scared by it all...at least that is what it seemed.

so, do you call these repentant women that you know.... murderers... to their face? Do you rant in front of them about these other murderous women? If you do, you should stop, imo.

The Lord works in mysterious ways....He lets humans make mistakes sometimes, so that He can bring the sorrowful to Him....imo.

Care

They call themselves that, they say I murdered my child, some do not realize it at the time because of the fluffy planned parenthood PC stuff and they deal with it later after reality sets in. I know how they viewed it and that is why I do not mince words, some do indeed think they have no "choice" the irony of it all, is they are prepared to kill their baby in hopes to solve a problem. Rant, I am being honest that is all. Which is more than what abortion advocates are, they set these women up for untold suffering and guilt and leave them to deal with it on their own.

I object to the term 'abortion advocates'. No one advocates choosing abortion. Abortion just happens to be a legal choice for women with unwanted pregnancies.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

i am not saying it is not a big deal....i have consoled a few girls that have had abortions, and councilled others contemplating it.

it is not as simple as you seem to think it is, and none of the girls were murderers....they terminated their unborn offspring. Some, felt remorse after wards, some felt nothing at all....numb....some carried the baggage a few decades....it really is not some kind of thing that these girls/women were rubbing their hands together chanting goodie goodie goodie, i get to murder my child to be today.....most did not view it as a child, but as a potential child.... murder takes malice....there was no malice from these girls towards their own offspring....they were just scared by it all...at least that is what it seemed.

so, do you call these repentant women that you know.... murderers... to their face? Do you rant in front of them about these other murderous women? If you do, you should stop, imo.

The Lord works in mysterious ways....He lets humans make mistakes sometimes, so that He can bring the sorrowful to Him....imo.

Care

They call themselves that, they say I murdered my child, some do not realize it at the time because of the fluffy planned parenthood PC stuff and they deal with it later after reality sets in. I know how they viewed it and that is why I do not mince words, some do indeed think they have no "choice" the irony of it all, is they are prepared to kill their baby in hopes to solve a problem. Rant, I am being honest that is all. Which is more than what abortion advocates are, they set these women up for untold suffering and guilt and leave them to deal with it on their own.

I object to the term 'abortion advocates'. No one advocates choosing abortion. Abortion just happens to be a legal choice for women with unwanted pregnancies.

Unwanted babies.Unwanted humans.

 

[Jroc]

when you ask something as dismissively as "where do you get this stuff", it appeared disrespectful.

if you "dismiss most of judaism as being way too liberal", perhaps judaism isn't the religion for you except by birth other beliefs might suit you better. i'm not saying that to be insulting. i'm saying that truthfully. because you can't really separate those "liberal" parts from the rest or you end up with a pretty unpleasant belief system, imo.

Disrespectful? Please don't presume to tell me what I should believe based on your opinion of Jewish law. You've got a lot of nerve to accuse someone of being disrespectful then make though a stupid comment like that

things i love about judaism are the parts of it that believe in social justice, caring for others, and being tolerant.

interestingly, those are mostly the same things jesus preached that are mostly ignored by the radical right.

Social justice? whos view of social justice yours? who decides what is Social justice? individule liberty is what this country was founded on not someone own personal view of social justice

but in answer to your question:

In fact, the prevailing position in halacha (Jewish law) today, though restrictive, is rather lenient. It is the position argued by former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ben Zion Uziel. He declared that abortion is permissible even for what he calls "a very thin reason," meaning that one should give broad latitude to how a woman interprets "difficulty" or "injury," or "life-threatening," and even allowing an abortion in certain circumstances of great emotional anguish where there is no physical danger to the mother. But how thin is "thin"? What about the case where the child is known to be physically or mentally defective? What about the regrets after consensual adultery? Does a woman’s shame or embarrassment at the consequences of her own actions justify the termination of a pregnancy? What about the woman whose education or career will be made difficult if she has a child to look after? Is the Jewish position simply abortion on demand?

Certainly Judaism never allows abortion for birth control purposes when having a child would be simply an inconvenience or embarrassment. But in practice there remains considerable disagreement among halachic authorities and among the various streams of Judaism concerning specific cases. For example, most Orthodox authorities do not permit abortion on the grounds that a fetus is severely defective. Conservative and Reform authorities would permit aborting a physically or mentally defective fetus.

Jewish views of abortion

the one thing my rabbi always said was there are different ways to study torah..

1. literally, like the orthodox/fundamentalists
2. metaphorically, where bible stories are essentially viewed as parables.

and

3. whatever the rabbi says it means.

you should also know, and i'm pretty sure you do, that the process of studying torah is one of questioning. pat answers rarely exist. it is always "well, on one hand"... "well on the other hand"... "but what if... ".

Exactly right, but you made the assertion that your religion says abortion is a "matter of conscience" So maybe you should have said in your opinion or in your Rabbi's opinion. Nothing in your post answered my question were in Jewish Law does it say abortion is a matter of conscience?

 

[Bern80]

I guess it depends on if you think a certan emotional state is a requirement for the act to be defined as murder. Personally, I don't. The only two pre-requisites I think there are are pre-meditation and the actual taking of the innocent human life. Abortion certainly meets the first pre-requisite. The second one is harder. When can a baby be defined as a human life? The point is, whenever that may be biologically, killing it after that point pre-meditatedally, is murder.

once again, "murder" is a specifically defined legal term. there are legitimate reasons to "kill" and we do so all the time... for food, for clothing, in self-defense, in defense of others and in defense of property. the same concept applies to saving a woman's life in the event she endures a pregnancy. if we can get that as an understanding, then we can move on.

i agree with you (bookmark this post, it may be a while before you see those words from me again ) in that life does exist on a continuum from zygote through birth. that part of the basis for Roe v Wade which has so far been ignored throughout this thread (although i may have missed it) is that the Court did a balancing test. It inquired, and rightfully so, as to when the government had the right to intervene in contravention of the wishes of the individual. It held that at a certain point in the pregnancy, the obligation of government to protect prospective life outweighed the woman's right to govern her own body. That is the ONLY holding of Roe v Wade. Everything else is dicta... a purely intellectual discussion to guide future generations, but not bind them. So, given that life exists on a contunuum, it appears to me that nothing has occurred to vitiate the Court's holding.

Life exists in many forms... human beings, not so much... just as an egg, even if it is fertilized, is not a chicken.

*edit* a murder conviction requires a finding of mens rea. even the original languate of the bible does not say "thou shalt not kill". it says "thou shalt not murder".

Which is why, when I actually understood Roe a little more and when my opinions of the issue became more....moderated, shall we say, it turned out I actually agree with that aspect of Roe.

I know on these boards I am probably considered a member of the right, but I am not a member of the fanatical religous, no abortions EVER, right. I may find it immoral, but the biological facts are there are stages in a pregnancy where you're not killng what can biologically defined as a human being. It's a collection of cells. As irresponsible as one may consider it to terminate the pregnancy, there is no legal standing that I can see to punish a woman for an early term abortion.

I am interested than in punishing them for late term abortions, but only in cases where the abortion is being considered out of convenience. My curiosity is that if Roe essentially says abortions are legal prior to the fetus being viable, what legal action is taken against those that have one after viability. I can't believe it doesn't happen, but I can't say that I recall ever hearing of a woman being legally punished for it. Have you?

 

[jillian]

Which is why, when I actually understood Roe a little more and when my opinions of the issue became more....moderated, shall we say, it turned out I actually agree with that aspect of Roe.

I know on these boards I am probably considered a member of the right, but I am not a member of the fanatical religous, no abortions EVER, right. I may find it immoral, but the biological facts are there are stages in a pregnancy where you're not killng what can biologically defined as a human being. It's a collection of cells. As irresponsible as one may consider it to terminate the pregnancy, there is no legal standing that I can see to punish a woman for an early term abortion.

I am interested than in punishing them for late term abortions, but only in cases where the abortion is being considered out of convenience. My curiosity is that if Roe essentially says abortions are legal prior to the fetus being viable, what legal action is taken against those that have one after viability. I can't believe it doesn't happen, but I can't say that I recall ever hearing of a woman being legally punished for it. Have you?

see, i have no problem with someone who doesn't believe in abortions... for themselves. I believe everyone has to live with whatever decisions they make either way. my problem is with people who, for whatever reason, want to impose their own moral judgments on others. as i said to one of the other posters on this thread, i've never met anyone i thought was better able to make moral choices for me.... than me. i'm pretty sure that everyone else feels the same.

as for late term abortion, the numbers on that are miniscule and my feeling is that it's a decision a woman makes with her doctor and politicians in washington shouldn't interfere in that relationship. though, i can't truly imagine how anyone could either perform or have that procedure "just because".

and no... i've never heard of anyone being pushed INTO having an abortion. but there are a lot of stories about women being harassed out of having one whether that harassment was successful or not.

and cheers... i think this may be our first agreement ever.

 

[jillian]

when you ask something as dismissively as "where do you get this stuff", it appeared disrespectful.

if you "dismiss most of judaism as being way too liberal", perhaps judaism isn't the religion for you except by birth other beliefs might suit you better. i'm not saying that to be insulting. i'm saying that truthfully. because you can't really separate those "liberal" parts from the rest or you end up with a pretty unpleasant belief system, imo.

Disrespectful? Please don't presume to tell me what I should believe based on your opinion of Jewish law. You've got a lot of nerve to accuse someone of being disrespectful then make though a stupid comment like that

things i love about judaism are the parts of it that believe in social justice, caring for others, and being tolerant.

interestingly, those are mostly the same things jesus preached that are mostly ignored by the radical right.

Social justice? whos view of social justice yours? who decides what is Social justice? individule liberty is what this country was founded on not someone own personal view of social justice

but in answer to your question:

In fact, the prevailing position in halacha (Jewish law) today, though restrictive, is rather lenient. It is the position argued by former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ben Zion Uziel. He declared that abortion is permissible even for what he calls "a very thin reason," meaning that one should give broad latitude to how a woman interprets "difficulty" or "injury," or "life-threatening," and even allowing an abortion in certain circumstances of great emotional anguish where there is no physical danger to the mother. But how thin is "thin"? What about the case where the child is known to be physically or mentally defective? What about the regrets after consensual adultery? Does a woman’s shame or embarrassment at the consequences of her own actions justify the termination of a pregnancy? What about the woman whose education or career will be made difficult if she has a child to look after? Is the Jewish position simply abortion on demand?

Certainly Judaism never allows abortion for birth control purposes when having a child would be simply an inconvenience or embarrassment. But in practice there remains considerable disagreement among halachic authorities and among the various streams of Judaism concerning specific cases. For example, most Orthodox authorities do not permit abortion on the grounds that a fetus is severely defective. Conservative and Reform authorities would permit aborting a physically or mentally defective fetus.

Jewish views of abortion

the one thing my rabbi always said was there are different ways to study torah..

1. literally, like the orthodox/fundamentalists
2. metaphorically, where bible stories are essentially viewed as parables.

and

3. whatever the rabbi says it means.

you should also know, and i'm pretty sure you do, that the process of studying torah is one of questioning. pat answers rarely exist. it is always "well, on one hand"... "well on the other hand"... "but what if... ".

Exactly right, but you made the assertion that your religion says abortion is a "matter of conscience" So maybe you should have said in your opinion or in your Rabbi's opinion. Nothing in your post answered my question were in Jewish Law does it say abortion is a matter of conscience?

really? and what do you think goes into making the decision?

 

[GHook93]

Roe v. Wade held that you can't restrict a woman's right to an abortion prior to viability. Which means you can't make laws restricting abortion during the first trimester. HOWEVER, Roe v. Wade didn't not protect a woman's right to an abortion in the 2nd and 3rd trimester. That is why many states have outlawed late term abortions and those state laws have passed the constitutionalituy test!

Abortionist to the extremes say any time before the child walks you can abort and Pro-lifers to the extremes say protect every egg and sperm!

Less people to the extremes. Pro-abortion moderates, protect the first trimester only (with exceptions in the 2nd for woman's life in dangers, birth defects, rape or incest and VERY few exceptions if any in the 3rd), Pro-lifers moderates say no abortion unless mother's life in danger, rape or incest!

There is a difference of levels of people who are pro-abortion and pro-life!

For those who claim abortion is a medical procedure and is not killing an innocent human being I have a question.

Dr. Kermit Gosnell, 69, faces eight counts of murder in the deaths of a woman following a botched abortion at his office, along with the deaths of seven other babies who, prosecutors allege, were born alive following illegal late-term abortions and then were killed by severing their spinal cords with a pair of scissors.

would these children have been any less viable had this piece of human trash cut them up in utero as opposed to after birth? If Roe is the standard, and the standard it sets is "viability", how is a fetus, any fetus, unviable after about 4 1/2 months of pregnancy? All of them are viable given proper medical care, so what is the difference between murdering them in utero or out?

Philly Abortion Doctor Facing 8 Counts Of Murder CBS Philly – News, Sports, Weather, Traffic and the Best of Philadelphia

 

[jillian]

Roe v. Wade held that you can't restrict a woman's right to an abortion prior to viability. Which means you can't make laws restricting abortion during the first trimester. HOWEVER, Roe v. Wade didn't not protect a woman's right to an abortion in the 2nd and 3rd trimester. That is why many states have outlawed late term abortions and those state laws have passed the constitutionalituy test!

Abortionist to the extremes say any time before the child walks you can abort and Pro-lifers to the extremes say protect every egg and sperm!

Less people to the extremes. Pro-abortion moderates, protect the first trimester only (with exceptions in the 2nd for woman's life in dangers, birth defects, rape or incest and VERY few exceptions if any in the 3rd), Pro-lifers moderates say no abortion unless mother's life in danger, rape or incest!

There is a difference of levels of people who are pro-abortion and pro-life!

you mean pro choice and anti-choice. language is important.

i agree in part. but the "viability" argument was only a part of the decision and was badly written... horribly written actually.

the balancing test is far more important.

and the fact that there is a contiuum of belief on the issue, is settled by the determination of roe as a balancing of issues. and no one should be making those moral judgments for anyone else... much less the government.

 

[Bern80]

see, i have no problem with someone who doesn't believe in abortions... for themselves. I believe everyone has to live with whatever decisions they make either way. my problem is with people who, for whatever reason, want to impose their own moral judgments on others. as i said to one of the other posters on this thread, i've never met anyone i thought was better able to make moral choices for me.... than me. i'm pretty sure that everyone else feels the same.

I don't think imposing moral judgement on people is an all or nothing thing. We do it for some things and not for others. You don't have a problem imposing moral judgement on a rapist or actual murderer do you?

as for late term abortion, the numbers on that are miniscule and my feeling is that it's a decision a woman makes with her doctor and politicians in washington shouldn't interfere in that relationship. though, i can't truly imagine how anyone could either perform or have that procedure "just because".

I guess the only reason I part ways on that one is that at some point in the pregnancy tha fetus does become a human being. Even if unborn, doesn't a human being deserve a legal advocate in its best interests if the mother won't?

and no... i've never heard of anyone being pushed INTO having an abortion. but there are a lot of stories about women being harassed out of having one whether that harassment was successful or not.

Sorry, ddidn't mean pushed into, just anybody who has had a 3rd trimester abortion and been prosecuted for it.

and cheers... i think this may be our first agreement ever.

Oh there are a few things you might a find a liberal and a libertarian would agree on.

 

[JScott]

For those who claim abortion is a medical procedure and is not killing an innocent human being I have a question.

Dr. Kermit Gosnell, 69, faces eight counts of murder in the deaths of a woman following a botched abortion at his office, along with the deaths of seven other babies who, prosecutors allege, were born alive following illegal late-term abortions and then were killed by severing their spinal cords with a pair of scissors.

would these children have been any less viable had this piece of human trash cut them up in utero as opposed to after birth? If Roe is the standard, and the standard it sets is "viability", how is a fetus, any fetus, unviable after about 4 1/2 months of pregnancy? All of them are viable given proper medical care, so what is the difference between murdering them in utero or out?

Philly Abortion Doctor Facing 8 Counts Of Murder CBS Philly – News, Sports, Weather, Traffic and the Best of Philadelphia

I dont care what you think.

 

[Sky Dancer]

They call themselves that, they say I murdered my child, some do not realize it at the time because of the fluffy planned parenthood PC stuff and they deal with it later after reality sets in. I know how they viewed it and that is why I do not mince words, some do indeed think they have no "choice" the irony of it all, is they are prepared to kill their baby in hopes to solve a problem. Rant, I am being honest that is all. Which is more than what abortion advocates are, they set these women up for untold suffering and guilt and leave them to deal with it on their own.

I object to the term 'abortion advocates'. No one advocates choosing abortion. Abortion just happens to be a legal choice for women with unwanted pregnancies.

Unwanted babies.Unwanted humans.

Unwanted pregnancies. A zygote is not a baby. A fetus is not a baby. A fetus doesn't even have sentience that is measurable until the 22nd week of pregnancy. Pregnancy is not even considered to have started until the zygote attaches to the uterine wall.

Let me ask you a question. Does the topic of abortion bring up hate in your heart?

Do you hate people who have different spiritual views about when human life begins?

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

I object to the term 'abortion advocates'. No one advocates choosing abortion. Abortion just happens to be a legal choice for women with unwanted pregnancies.

Unwanted babies.Unwanted humans.

Unwanted pregnancies. A zygote is not a baby. A fetus is not a baby. A fetus doesn't even have sentience that is measurable until the 22nd week of pregnancy. Pregnancy is not even considered to have started until the zygote attaches to the uterine wall.

Let me ask you a question. Does the topic of abortion bring up hate in your heart?

Do you hate people who have different spiritual views about when human life begins?

No I hate abortion and all acts of murder.You see I do not hate you because I disagree with you, that is something I do not understand, I do hate evil debase acts, of all kinds there is a difference in hating a horrible injustice and hating the perpetrator of it.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Unwanted babies.Unwanted humans.

Unwanted pregnancies. A zygote is not a baby. A fetus is not a baby. A fetus doesn't even have sentience that is measurable until the 22nd week of pregnancy. Pregnancy is not even considered to have started until the zygote attaches to the uterine wall.

Let me ask you a question. Does the topic of abortion bring up hate in your heart?

Do you hate people who have different spiritual views about when human life begins?

No I hate abortion and all acts of murder.You see I do not hate you because I disagree with you, that is something I do not understand, I do hate evil debase acts, of all kinds there is a difference in hating a horrible injustice and hating the perpetrator of it.

You hate. Period. I can relate. I hate intolerance. Bottom line. I hate.
Some people think hate is righteous. I don't.

You don't even know my views about abortion. I'm Buddhist. That means no killing. Period.