Abortions: Should Women be Allowed to Choose?

[Katzndogz]

American conservatives want poor women to have babies, but they don't want them to have paid maternity leave, access to pre-natal and post-natal care, subsidized day-care, or medical benefits. They want the abortion rate lower, but ask them to dip into their pockets for tax dollars to make it happen, and suddenly they spout "personal responsibility". I say "Put your money where your mouth is".

Personal responsibility does NOT mean the responsibility of shifting your expenses to someone else. I can't believe someone actually said that!

I want to be personally responsible for myself. So YOU pay my rent, food, medical care, take care of my kids, and when you have paid for absolutely everything, then I will be a responsible person.

No one can fix this kind of stupid.

 

[Dragonlady]

They don't own the babies they kill.

As long as the children are in our wombs, they are ours to deal with as we see fit. If men and women don't "own" their children, why does the government give them the right to pull their children out of school programs. If parents don't own their children, why does the doctor need "parental consent" to operate. Why do biological parents get custody of children they've given up for adoption? Why does the government recognize parental rights at all? If parents don't own their children, shouldn't the government decide what's right for the child if Jehovah's Witness parents decide to forego blood transfusions, or Christian Scientists refuse modern medical intervention?

In every other aspect of the child's life, the biological parents have the right to decide. Even in cases where the child will die without medical intervention and the child could be saved, the right of the parents to decide based on their faith, is paramount. In such cases, you'd argue that the parents get to decide, even if the child dies. Freedom of religion under the Constitution and all, and you're be correct.

Except if a woman gets pregnant, then her rights and her religious beliefs go right out the window. See how hypocritical this is?

 

[koshergrl]

So you maintain that children are property?

Yeah, I know that's the way progressives view them.

 

[Caroljo]

Show me where, in the word of God, He has said abortion is wrong.

It is MY belief that those of you who persecute, harass and intimidate abortion workers and their clients, will be judged by God for their viciousness and cruelty to other.

I say again, if God wanted all life to be sacred, and all babies to be born, women would not have miscarriages. Miscarriage is God's way of telling us that it's our choice, not His.

I think you really don't know what you're talking about. Because God doesn't come right out in the Bible and say YOU SHALL NOT ABORT A CHILD, then you think it wasn't mentioned? Lol!

Biblical Reasons Abortion is wrong from the Bible One of the Ten Commandments, Thou shalt not kill, See Exodus 20.
Genesis 9:5 - "Murder is forbidden." (NLT)
Proverbs 24: 11-12 - "Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to death; don't stand back and let them die. Don't try to avoid responsibility by saying you didn't know about it. For God knows all hearts and he sees you. He keeps watch over your souls, and he knows you know. And he will judge all people according to what they have done." (NLT)

Proverbs 6:16-17 says that God HATES those who shed innocent blood! Deuteronomy 27:25 says, "Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen."

Who could possibly be more innocent than an unborn baby?! Yet, our society has become so wicked that it condones the slaying of 1.5 million innocent children every year. The Bible says that God HATES people who do this.

Abortion Is A Violation of the Golden Rule of the Bible
In Matthew 7:12, the Lord Jesus Christ said, "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

The Bible and Abortion - Biblical Verses

 

[kaz]

Show me where, in the word of God, He has said abortion is wrong.

It is MY belief that those of you who persecute, harass and intimidate abortion workers and their clients, will be judged by God for their viciousness and cruelty to other.

I say again, if God wanted all life to be sacred, and all babies to be born, women would not have miscarriages. Miscarriage is God's way of telling us that it's our choice, not His.

I think you really don't know what you're talking about. Because God doesn't come right out in the Bible and say YOU SHALL NOT ABORT A CHILD, then you think it wasn't mentioned? Lol!

Biblical Reasons Abortion is wrong from the Bible One of the Ten Commandments, Thou shalt not kill, See Exodus 20.
Genesis 9:5 - "Murder is forbidden." (NLT)
Proverbs 24: 11-12 - "Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to death; don't stand back and let them die. Don't try to avoid responsibility by saying you didn't know about it. For God knows all hearts and he sees you. He keeps watch over your souls, and he knows you know. And he will judge all people according to what they have done." (NLT)

Proverbs 6:16-17 says that God HATES those who shed innocent blood! Deuteronomy 27:25 says, "Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen."

Who could possibly be more innocent than an unborn baby?! Yet, our society has become so wicked that it condones the slaying of 1.5 million innocent children every year. The Bible says that God HATES people who do this.

Abortion Is A Violation of the Golden Rule of the Bible
In Matthew 7:12, the Lord Jesus Christ said, "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

The Bible and Abortion - Biblical Verses

I think those are all reasonable interpretations of those passages to argue why you believe God thinks that abortion is wrong.

What your passages do not show is that God thinks "wrong" should be enforced by the Government. For example, I'm thinking you do think that not honoring your parents and coveting your neighbor's spouse are wrong, but you don't think it's for government to pass laws and arrest people for that. It's a matter for their conscience and between them and God.

Regardless of whether you view a fetus as a life, no other law grants power to compel people to do things or it's a crime. Like telling a woman, government will take your ownership for the balance of nine months and compel you to carry a fetus to term. It's a matter for the woman and her God, not the woman and her congressman.

 

[Dragonlady]

Who could possibly be more innocent than an unborn baby?! Yet, our society has become so wicked that it condones the slaying of 1.5 million innocent children every year. The Bible says that God HATES people who do this.

All of your quotes relate to the killing of living people and do not relate to the unborn. Biblical quotes relating to the unborn, do not support your view of abortion. If a woman commits adultery, she is to be stoned, even if she is pregnant. If a man strikes a woman and she delivers her unborn child prematurely (which would result in dealth in those days), he should pay a fine to the woman's husband. If the WOMAN is injured, then the law of a life for a life is invoked.

Our society has not "become so wicked". Our society has always been thus. Women have been having abortions since they've been having babies. There are recipes in the Bible for herbal concoctions which bring on a miscarriage. In the Middle Ages, women went to midwives to mix the potions which would end their pregnancies.

What is new is using abortion as a tactic to strip women of rights. Abortion only became illegal after women started advocating for the right to vote. Abortion laws have always been about controlling women, and never about the babies.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

You need to check your time tables. Abortion in the US became illegal at the beginning of the 19th century and was spearheaded by the early feminists. The suffragist movement began towards the end of the 19th century/beginning of the 20th century.

 

[Caroljo]

Yes, if the fetus is born prematurely, its chance of survival in Biblical times would have been almost NIL. So the man pays a small fine to the husband, if there is no further injury, but if the WIFE is killed or injured, then there is a punishment.

Another passage from the Bible which indicates that God is OK with the death of a fetus, but not the death of a living being.

Read it again....you DON'T UNDERSTAND it!............

Exodus 21
22 “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

It says "so that she gives birth PREMATURELY". That means the woman ends up giving birth to the child early...NOT that the child died!

THEN...in verse 23...."But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life"...
Which means..... but if the child DIES from this, it's a life for a life, eye for an eye...etc.

Understand now??

 

[JustSomeGuy]

1859 AMA Report on Criminal Abortion

Read the whole thing and tell me it wasn't about protecting innocent life. Even 154 years ago, people knew that abortion was the destruction of a human life and sought to protect those in the womb.

 

[kaz]

1859 AMA Report on Criminal Abortion

Read the whole thing and tell me its not about protecting innocent life. Even 154 years ago, people knew that abortion was the destruction of a human life and sought to protect those in the womb.

And that leads to the the leap that that if a woman wants a baby out of her own body that she be treated as if she had murdered a human being? Wow, what a leap. I don't buy that babies are either irrelevant or equal to a human being in every way, including from the woman who's body it is occupying. That polar choice is like most polar choices. Silly.

 

[Dragonlady]

So you maintain that children are property?

Yeah, I know that's the way progressives view them.

No that's the way the laws of the land view them. Parental rights trump all. If the parents believe blood transfusion is wrong, they have the right to refuse to have their children transfused, even if the child dies as a result. The same with medical treatment. Underage girls require their parents' consent to get married, have an abortion, etc.

If a child is killed in an accident, the parents will receive little in monetary compensation for the death because it will be considered that the parents have been spared the costs of feeding, clothing and educating the child to adulthood, and therefore the loss of the child is financially to their benefit.

 

[koshergrl]

No, parental rights do not trump all. Which is why it's illegal to kill children.

"
"For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be."

Psalm 139.

"
The Call of Jeremiah
4The word of the Lord came to me, saying,
5“Before I formed you in the womb I knewa you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

6“Alas, Sovereign Lord,” I said, “I do not know how to speak; I am too young.”
7But the Lord said to me, “Do not say, ‘I am too young.’ You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you. 8Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you and will rescue you,” declares the Lord."

Jeremiah 1

 

[koshergrl]

Progressives make me puke, seriously.

Parental rights trump all...they honestly believe that...except for when the state determines parents don't HAVE any rights...

It's schizophrenic.

So if parental rights trump all, it's legal to abuse, kill, and molest your own children. Because you have "the right". Neglect is not a crime......this is what comes to us from the culture of death that was spawned by RvW.

 

[Dragonlady]

Parental rights trump all...they honestly believe that...except for when the state determines parents don't HAVE any rights...

It's schizophrenic.

So if parental rights trump all, it's legal to abuse, kill, and molest your own children. Because you have "the right". Neglect is not a crime......this is what comes to us from the culture of death that was spawned by RvW.

Parental rights trump all when it comes to disposition of the children and decisions about their care. That doesn't give parents the right to abuse or neglect children, but they are allowed to discipline them in ways that would lead to charges of assault if done to a stranger.

There is no culture of death as you so loudly proclaim. It is the culture of "personal responsibility" encouraged by right wingers such as yourself that has lead the US to have the highest rate of abortion in the first world: no government funded medical care, no subsidized day care, no maternity leave, no protections whatsoever for pregnant working women - that is the reason why women in the US abort.

Right wingers don't want to own that the cult of "personal responsibility" plays in the number of abortions in the US. Canada has a similar life-style and levels of morality, but we have 35% fewer abortions despite the fact that in Canada, abortions are free to anyone who wants one, without restrictions of any kind, and readily available.

Every useless lie those who oppose choice have put up has been shot down, to the point where the only response you have is "lies and liars". When the right-wingers point fingers at the left for number of abortions performed in the US, there are four fingers pointing back at YOU.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

If we didn't have abortion we would not have more unwanted children. We would have far fewer foreign adoptions.

Given that a woman has a right to choose to kill her child. At what age would the child have to be to cut off that right? We know that being born doesn't cut off the right because liberals have evolved to murder after the child is born. So what age is acceptable to end a woman's right to choose and what of the infringement on her rights then?

Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pa. v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833 (1992)

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Yes, if the fetus is born prematurely, its chance of survival in Biblical times would have been almost NIL. So the man pays a small fine to the husband, if there is no further injury, but if the WIFE is killed or injured, then there is a punishment.

Another passage from the Bible which indicates that God is OK with the death of a fetus, but not the death of a living being.

Read it again....you DON'T UNDERSTAND it!............

Exodus 21
22 “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

It says "so that she gives birth PREMATURELY". That means the woman ends up giving birth to the child early...NOT that the child died!

THEN...in verse 23...."But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life"...
Which means..... but if the child DIES from this, it's a life for a life, eye for an eye...etc.

Understand now??

Fortunately the bible is legally and Constitutionally irrelevant.

 

[koshergrl]

"
Some of the issues that are included in the Catholic Church's description of the culture of life include:

• Opposition to abortion
• Opposition to human sterilization
• Opposition to human cloning
• Opposition to contraception
• Opposition to human embryonic stem cell and fetal research, coupled with support for adult stem cell research
• Opposition to euthanasia
• Opposition to murder and suicide
• Opposition to capital punishment
• Opposition to unjust war
• Promotion of agape love and charity
• Promotion of matrimony, maternity, fatherhood, life, chastity, fidelity, and virtue
• Promotion of organ donation"

The above is a description of the Culture of Life.

Death cultists stand for the polar opposite.

Culture of life - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Dragonlady]

Look at the top of the list. Now look at the bottom of the list. Seems to me like "blue" America needs to try a little harder, huh?

The red states have been putting up barriers to abortion for years. Some of the red states don't have a single doctor who will perform abortions, forcing women to leave the state to get an abortion.

Texas has made it so difficult for women to get a legal abortion, that women are now turning up at Texas hospitals in septic shock from botched Mexican abortions.

Ya think that MAYBE that might have bearing on the low rates of abortion in red states, and the higher rates in neighbouring blue states?

 

[Dragonlady]

"
Some of the issues that are included in the Catholic Church's description of the culture of life include:

• Opposition to abortion
• Opposition to human sterilization
• Opposition to human cloning
• Opposition to contraception
• Opposition to human embryonic stem cell and fetal research, coupled with support for adult stem cell research
• Opposition to euthanasia
• Opposition to murder and suicide
• Opposition to capital punishment
• Opposition to unjust war
• Promotion of agape love and charity
• Promotion of matrimony, maternity, fatherhood, life, chastity, fidelity, and virtue
• Promotion of organ donation"

The above is a description of the Culture of Life.

Death cultists stand for the polar opposite.

Culture of life - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church - the most mysogynsitic, sexist and corrupt institution in the world, only because they've been at it for so long.

THIS is the shit you're trying to cram down people's throats? The same Church which burned witches, tortured Jews, raped little boys, and then sheltered their priests. The Church that stood by and let the Nazis murder millions without a word. This is the beacon of faith and morality you hold up to us????

No wonder you don't have a clue.

 

[koshergrl]

Ho hum. Another slavering fanatic. Like we need more of those.

I'm not a Catholic, zealot. I'm a Southern Baptist.

You said "there is no culture of death". I am pointing out that the terminology was coined by the Church and that if the culture of life is (and it is) pro-life, anti-death, anti-abortion, anti-euthanasia...then certainly the drooling ghouls who are pro-abortion, pro-euthanasia, pro-sterilization, pro-death are certainly members in good standing of the Culture of Death.

Here's a quarter. Hire a rat to lick the saliva flecks off your computer monitor.