Airport Security vs. Gun Control

[JoeB131]

On September 11, 2001, 19 hijackers belonging to Al Qaeda used flight training acquired in the US to hijack 4 airliners and kill 3000 people in attacks in NYC, Washington DC and Pennsylvania.

All 19 of these guys were able to get past security checkpoints. Not a person in the world said, "Well, they got through the checkpoints, the checkpoints must be fine!"

Instead, the private sector minimum wage guards at most airports were replaced by a professional TSA. They also put Air Marshalls on the planes.

The metal detectors that were unable to pick up box cutters were replaced with full body scanners.

Shoes now have to be X-rayed because another terrorists put C-4 in his shoes.

They put steel doors on all the cockpits of airplanes to keep hijackers from gaining control of the plane.

People going to flight school are thoroughly background checked.

In short, they did something. And we haven't had a hijacking since. No one sane said, "We need to make sure EVERYONE on the plane has a box cutter or a gun!"


Compare that to the latest gun massacre. Aaron Alexis, like James Holmes, Jared Lougher and Cho Sueng heng, was able to purchase a gun despite histories of mental illness and problems indicating they were not stable.

But there are people who are arguing that "Gee, he passed the background check, I'm not sure what more you want."

and the ever present, "Well, if other people had guns, they could have stopped him!"

I guess we should be grateful that the Al Qaeda doesn't have Lobbyists.

 

[blastoff]

Just for grins, care to tell us how many existing gun or other laws criminals Aaron Alexis, James Holmes, Jared Lougher and Cho Sueng heng broke?

We need more lobbyists to help outlaw morons like "PSA" Joe IMO.

 

[legaleagle_45]

Perhaps we should talk to Massachusetts which has since the introduction of the NICS data base in the mid 90's submitted a grand total of one mental health record for inclusion in the data base? Hawaii has also submitted one record. Vermont does much better, since the mid 90's they have submitted 25 records to NICS New Jersey? 17.

Seems people like the ACLU do not wish to have these records submitted to NICS because of privacy concerns. Thankfully, the feds finally got around to amending HIPPA so that some reports to NICS
will not violate fedral law. They did this in FEBRUARY OF 2013, Too bad some states still have laws which makes it illegal to report this information to NICS in most instances.

Others states do much better. Virginia has submitted 188,338. Texas 209,150. Pennsylvania 643,167

CRS report here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43040.pdf

Now, what I find very interesting is that Alexis did not merely pass a NICS background check, this guy obtained a secret level security clearance. Those require much more intense background checks and involve an active FBI investigation into your background. The whole process will take at least a month and up to a year as even an arrest without a conviction is usually grounds for denial of this level of security clearance.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Perhaps we should talk to Massachusetts which has since the introduction of the NICS data base in the mid 90's submitted a grand total of one mental health record for inclusion in the data base? Hawaii has also submitted one record. Vermont does much better, since the mid 90's they have submitted 25 records to NICS New Jersey? 17.

Seems people like the ACLU do not wish to have these records submitted to NICS because of privacy concerns. Thankfully, the feds finally got around to amending HIPPA so that some reports to NICS
will not violate fedral law. They did this in FEBRUARY OF 2013, Too bad some states still have laws which makes it illegal to report this information to NICS in most instances.

Others states do much better. Virginia has submitted 188,338. Texas 209,150. Pennsylvania 643,167

CRS report here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R43040.pdf

Now, what I find very interesting is that Alexis did not merely pass a NICS background check, this guy obtained a secret level security clearance. Those require much more intense background checks and involve an active FBI investigation into your background. The whole process will take at least a month and up to a year as even an arrest without a conviction is usually grounds for denial of this level of security clearance.

Don't mention that the latest shooter that had a security clearance was also reported for mental problems to the navy by Rhode island cops. And nothing was done.

 

[BullKurtz]

Your analogy to securing an airliner leaves out the same element present in all the mass shootings...the absence of armed personnel at the event...the airlines solved it with air marshalls, the schools have awakened to the need for armed guards, and now even mall guards are armed. These are not "minimum wage" jobs anymore. The public has the right to protection from the lunatics doing the shooting not the weapons themselves. That's what you gun-grabbers continue to ignore.

 

[JoeB131]

Your analogy to securing an airliner leaves out the same element present in all the mass shootings...the absence of armed personnel at the event...the airlines solved it with air marshalls, the schools have awakened to the need for armed guards, and now even mall guards are armed. These are not "minimum wage" jobs anymore. The public has the right to protection from the lunatics doing the shooting not the weapons themselves. That's what you gun-grabbers continue to ignore.

I'm sorry, guy, but if it sooo bad we have to arm mall cops and school cops and just about the whole fucking society, then we have too many guns in the wrong hands.

the problem with everyone having guns is that it doesn't work.

There were armed guards at Columbine.
There was an ENTIRE POLICE FORCE at VA Tech.

Ft. Hood and the Washington Naval Yard are MILITARY INSTALLATIONS.

If a place called "Fort Hood" can't be safe from a madman with a gun, I'm really not sure who can be.

Maybe we should just try to get the guns out of the hands of crazy people.

 

[asterism]

Your analogy to securing an airliner leaves out the same element present in all the mass shootings...the absence of armed personnel at the event...the airlines solved it with air marshalls, the schools have awakened to the need for armed guards, and now even mall guards are armed. These are not "minimum wage" jobs anymore. The public has the right to protection from the lunatics doing the shooting not the weapons themselves. That's what you gun-grabbers continue to ignore.

I'm sorry, guy, but if it sooo bad we have to arm mall cops and school cops and just about the whole fucking society, then we have too many guns in the wrong hands.

the problem with everyone having guns is that it doesn't work.

There were armed guards at Columbine.
There was an ENTIRE POLICE FORCE at VA Tech.

Ft. Hood and the Washington Naval Yard are MILITARY INSTALLATIONS.

If a place called "Fort Hood" can't be safe from a madman with a gun, I'm really not sure who can be.

Maybe we should just try to get the guns out of the hands of crazy people.

How do you do that without merely keeping law abiding citizens from owning them?

 

[JoeB131]

[

Maybe we should just try to get the guns out of the hands of crazy people.

How do you do that without merely keeping law abiding citizens from owning them?

I don't consider that to be a priority or a concern. "Law-abiding" citizens are responsible for far more gun death and violence than "criminals" are. = Suicides, Accidents and domestic arguments that get out of hand.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Joe is right.

All our freedoms do is cause nothing but pain, misery and death.

toss the 2nd so no one will be shot again

How many fights have started with; "What did you call me?" Toss the 1st, clearly there will be fewer fights

How many lies do you hear on TV? toss freedom of the press. All scripts should be submitted to DC for approval

Voting? pfft. How many of you dumbfucks didn't vote for obama? clear racist bullshit

Privacy. What if someone might have a gun or says something bad? Cameras in every room and hall

The list of horrors we can end by giving away our freedoms are endless.

And then we can finally have utopia

 

[JoeB131]

Joe is right.

All our freedoms do is cause nothing but pain, misery and death.

toss the 2nd so no one will be shot again

How many fights have started with; "What did you call me?" Toss the 1st, clearly there will be fewer fights

How many lies do you hear on TV? toss freedom of the press. All scripts should be submitted to DC for approval

Voting? pfft. How many of you dumbfucks didn't vote for obama? clear racist bullshit

Privacy. What if someone might have a gun or says something bad? Cameras in every room and hall

The list of horrors we can end by giving away our freedoms are endless.

And then we can finally have utopia

You can always tell when a conservatard is losing an argument, it's when he screams about Freedom.

There's a country that has exactly the kind of Freedom you want. It's called "Somalia". Everyone has a gun, and everyone can do what the hell they want.

The rest of it is all trade-off between living in a civilized society.

Freedom of Speech does not mean that you can scream "FIRE" in a crowded theatre. The consequences of you doing so outweighs the value of your "Freedom".

Or to put it another way, your ability to swing your arms ends at my nose.

That's what you do in a civilized society.

Now, you consider owning a gun to be a definition of freedom. But frankly, I'm not feeling particularly free when I have to watch a presentation at the last movie I was at on "What to do if some crazy person starts shooting up the place".

Most other countries either limit who can own a gun. They are just as free as we are.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Joe is right.

All our freedoms do is cause nothing but pain, misery and death.

toss the 2nd so no one will be shot again

How many fights have started with; "What did you call me?" Toss the 1st, clearly there will be fewer fights

How many lies do you hear on TV? toss freedom of the press. All scripts should be submitted to DC for approval

Voting? pfft. How many of you dumbfucks didn't vote for obama? clear racist bullshit

Privacy. What if someone might have a gun or says something bad? Cameras in every room and hall

The list of horrors we can end by giving away our freedoms are endless.

And then we can finally have utopia

You can always tell when a conservatard is losing an argument, it's when he screams about Freedom.

There's a country that has exactly the kind of Freedom you want. It's called "Somalia". Everyone has a gun, and everyone can do what the hell they want.

The rest of it is all trade-off between living in a civilized society.

Freedom of Speech does not mean that you can scream "FIRE" in a crowded theatre. The consequences of you doing so outweighs the value of your "Freedom".

Or to put it another way, your ability to swing your arms ends at my nose.

That's what you do in a civilized society.

Now, you consider owning a gun to be a definition of freedom. But frankly, I'm not feeling particularly free when I have to watch a presentation at the last movie I was at on "What to do if some crazy person starts shooting up the place".

Most other countries either limit who can own a gun. They are just as free as we are.

yeah, freedom is a lousy thing to support. Who would ever want to do that? certainly not you

 

[BullKurtz]

Your analogy to securing an airliner leaves out the same element present in all the mass shootings...the absence of armed personnel at the event...the airlines solved it with air marshalls, the schools have awakened to the need for armed guards, and now even mall guards are armed. These are not "minimum wage" jobs anymore. The public has the right to protection from the lunatics doing the shooting not the weapons themselves. That's what you gun-grabbers continue to ignore.

I'm sorry, guy, but if it sooo bad we have to arm mall cops and school cops and just about the whole fucking society, then we have too many guns in the wrong hands.

the problem with everyone having guns is that it doesn't work.

There were armed guards at Columbine.
There was an ENTIRE POLICE FORCE at VA Tech.

Ft. Hood and the Washington Naval Yard are MILITARY INSTALLATIONS.

If a place called "Fort Hood" can't be safe from a madman with a gun, I'm really not sure who can be.

Maybe we should just try to get the guns out of the hands of crazy people.

No, there were not armed guards at Columbine No, the "entire police force" at VT were not in the building the shooter was in, nor were they ordered to go in after him until they had 20 times the force required. I'm aware Ft. Hood is a "military installation" and if you knew the protocol you'd know weapons are not carried on-base by other than MPs. So far you're wrong on everything you've said. I agree there are too many firearms in hands of crazy people. So does the NRA. So why are the crazy people getting guns? Because of doctor/patient confidentiality is why. Psychiatrists are not reporting psychopathic behavior until it's so dangerous it's usually too late. The shooter in Tucson could have been reported by the college he attended for what he did on campus. He was not. Had the vaunted liberal Tuscon police chief put a deputy at Gabby's speech that morning, Laughner would not have opened fire. They only attack UNarmed crowds....got it? Hello?

 

[BullKurtz]

Most other countries either limit who can own a gun. They are just as free as we are.

Really? name ONE.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

On September 11, 2001, 19 hijackers belonging to Al Qaeda used flight training acquired in the US to hijack 4 airliners and kill 3000 people in attacks in NYC, Washington DC and Pennsylvania.

All 19 of these guys were able to get past security checkpoints. Not a person in the world said, "Well, they got through the checkpoints, the checkpoints must be fine!"

Instead, the private sector minimum wage guards at most airports were replaced by a professional TSA. They also put Air Marshalls on the planes.

The metal detectors that were unable to pick up box cutters were replaced with full body scanners.

Shoes now have to be X-rayed because another terrorists put C-4 in his shoes.

They put steel doors on all the cockpits of airplanes to keep hijackers from gaining control of the plane.

People going to flight school are thoroughly background checked.

In short, they did something. And we haven't had a hijacking since. No one sane said, "We need to make sure EVERYONE on the plane has a box cutter or a gun!"


Compare that to the latest gun massacre. Aaron Alexis, like James Holmes, Jared Lougher and Cho Sueng heng, was able to purchase a gun despite histories of mental illness and problems indicating they were not stable.

But there are people who are arguing that "Gee, he passed the background check, I'm not sure what more you want."

and the ever present, "Well, if other people had guns, they could have stopped him!"

I guess we should be grateful that the Al Qaeda doesn't have Lobbyists.

Quick question, are you admitting that gun control is a farce, or are you seriously arguing that you are so stupid you think the TSA is keeping us safe?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Joe is right.

All our freedoms do is cause nothing but pain, misery and death.

toss the 2nd so no one will be shot again

How many fights have started with; "What did you call me?" Toss the 1st, clearly there will be fewer fights

How many lies do you hear on TV? toss freedom of the press. All scripts should be submitted to DC for approval

Voting? pfft. How many of you dumbfucks didn't vote for obama? clear racist bullshit

Privacy. What if someone might have a gun or says something bad? Cameras in every room and hall

The list of horrors we can end by giving away our freedoms are endless.

And then we can finally have utopia

You can always tell when a conservatard is losing an argument, it's when he screams about Freedom.

There's a country that has exactly the kind of Freedom you want. It's called "Somalia". Everyone has a gun, and everyone can do what the hell they want.

The rest of it is all trade-off between living in a civilized society.

Freedom of Speech does not mean that you can scream "FIRE" in a crowded theatre. The consequences of you doing so outweighs the value of your "Freedom".

Or to put it another way, your ability to swing your arms ends at my nose.

That's what you do in a civilized society.

Now, you consider owning a gun to be a definition of freedom. But frankly, I'm not feeling particularly free when I have to watch a presentation at the last movie I was at on "What to do if some crazy person starts shooting up the place".

Most other countries either limit who can own a gun. They are just as free as we are.

Strict gun control does not work. New York, Chicago and Washington DC prove the point. Russia, Mexico, South Africa and even England prove the point. Less restrictive laws reduce crime , violence and murders as evidenced by cities and States with less laws and freedom to carry having less violence, less crime, less murders.

 

[KissMy]

No one sane said, "We need to make sure EVERYONE on the plane has a box cutter or a gun!"

Bullshit! - I flew the first day we were ungrounded after 9/11. There were lots of us saying the pilots should be armed.

The biggest cause of 9/11 was negotiation with hijackers & terrorist rule. STUPID!

At the first sign of a hijacking they should plunge the plane in a negative G dive so the hijackers can't move. Land on the closest strip & disable the plane.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Pretty simple. [MENTION=31057]JoeB131[/MENTION]: will rue the day when an armed assailant comes bursting into his home with a gun and not being so armed himself. What is he going to do? Punch him?

 

[JoeB131]

Pretty simple. [MENTION=31057]JoeB131[/MENTION]: will rue the day when an armed assailant comes bursting into his home with a gun and not being so armed himself. What is he going to do? Punch him?

Pretty simple, the chances of that happening are a lot less than the chances of being randomly shot in the street by some crazy person who brought a gun to my workplace or a mall I happen to be shopping at.

And, yeah, actually, I've got a Louisville slugger, probably would do a number on anyone who has designs on my laptop.

 

[JoeB131]

No one sane said, "We need to make sure EVERYONE on the plane has a box cutter or a gun!"

Bullshit! - I flew the first day we were ungrounded after 9/11. There were lots of us saying the pilots should be armed.

The biggest cause of 9/11 was negotiation with hijackers & terrorist rule. STUPID!

At the first sign of a hijacking they should plunge the plane in a negative G dive so the hijackers can't move. Land on the closest strip & disable the plane.

Yeah, that will work. Take the plane into a dangerous manuever that it might not be able to pull out of.

Brilliant!

Or better yet, lets start flinging bullets around in a tube of compressed air with volatile fuel....

 

[JoeB131]

[



yeah, freedom is a lousy thing to support. Who would ever want to do that? certainly not you

Guy, crazy people with guns is not a freedom we need.

Sorry.

Can't see where a crazy person with a gun ever has a good result.