Anti-Islam ads on NYC buses. Whose side are you on?

[irosie91]

A lot of Islamic liberalism started off as critiques of highly illiberal western colonial powers and administrations. Appeals for the expansion and modernization of education, as well as education for women, the appeal for constitutionalism and equity under the law and even the call for democracy. Trying to suggest that such progressive discourse for the time is illiberal simply so that you can carry on with your black and white understanding of Islam is dishonest.

You want to create this definitive barrier between Islamic Liberalism and European style liberalism, when many Islamic liberalists and modernists sought to copy European domestic liberal styles directly.

What a steaming pile of shit.

When you claim that British, Dutch, and French colonies were LESS liberal than the Tribesmen of the desert of the Shieks in the cities - any credibility you may have had is laughably lost.

So, it was the Brits who were stoning women for adultery in Zarqa whilst the "liberal" Imams decried such barbarism?

ROFL

What a fucking pile - you're just a liar for Allah.

Have you ever looked at how they treated natives in some of those colonies - particularly Africa? Might be useful to do some research: Leopold II of Belgium - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

good idea -----it would be good to understand how muslim colonialists treated "natives" who resisted islam, too

 

[Zander]

Free speech wins.

I am burning a Qu'ran today.

 

[Osomir]

Not sure how an Ottoman map makes me a liar, but that's super. The simple fact is that the Palestinian National Congresses held both before and after WWI never supported political union between Palestine and Jordan. They briefly supported political union between Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine, but subsequently voted in favor of Palestinian independence and separatism. Palestine Arab Congress - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Since the map is of "Palestine," and clearly includes all of Jordan, all of Lebanon, all of Israel, and the Southern portion of Syria, it is pretty dishonest to claim that Jordan is not Arab Palestine.

That map with Palestine on it doesn't include all of Jordan. 1.) there are no border demarcations of administrative regions. 2.) The Palestinian identity marker is to the left of the Jordan river, not spanning modern day Jordanian territory.

I'll also see your map, and raise you another from the same source you pulled yours from:

Notice the administrative divisions. Regardless, Ottoman political divisions were very fluid, and using Turkish administrative structures to attempt to define Arab national identities isn't a very good way for you to go.

This is "Palestine," once again, all of Jordan is included. Yes, the Caliphate set up, which is a red herring and utterly irrelevant to the fact that Jordan was and is, Arab Palestine.

1.) All of Jordan isn't included there, all of Jordan isn't even shown on the map let alone within the administrative lines.

2.) Note the administrative lines that differentiate the lands west of the Jordan river and the lands east of it. Your own map is proving you wrong.

3.) The Arabs revolted against the Turkish Caliphate and since it is the identities of Arabs that we are talking about it is worth noting the opinions of Arab congresses over the opinions of Turkish rulers in Anatolia.

 

[irosie91]

Oh----I don't see dates-----presbyopia what are the dates---------I have come across all sorts of "LEFT OVER FROM THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE" issues in the area-----that which the OTTOMANS called things and did things or designated things-----remain at issue

I literally don't know what you are attempting to communicate here. Your English isn't very clear sometimes. Would you please try again through the use of complete sentences?

my writing is clear-----you mentioned dates on the maps----I do not see dates. However ----when looking at dates and the INTERNATIONAL issue-----those people who actually do have some insight into the area understand that laws and customs and circumstances that precede the change (in this case the break up of the OTTOMAN EMPIRE post world war I) continue to STAY IN PLACE -----no matter what the newly placed authorities WISH TO HAPPEN or "BE"

 

[irosie91]

Free speech wins.

I am burning a Qu'ran today.

ok after that you can get another one by writing to the Saudi embassy

 

[Osomir]

A lot of Islamic liberalism started off as critiques of highly illiberal western colonial powers and administrations. Appeals for the expansion and modernization of education, as well as education for women, the appeal for constitutionalism and equity under the law and even the call for democracy. Trying to suggest that such progressive discourse for the time is illiberal simply so that you can carry on with your black and white understanding of Islam is dishonest.

You want to create this definitive barrier between Islamic Liberalism and European style liberalism, when many Islamic liberalists and modernists sought to copy European domestic liberal styles directly.

What a steaming pile of shit.

When you claim that British, Dutch, and French colonies were LESS liberal than the Tribesmen of the desert of the Shieks in the cities - any credibility you may have had is laughably lost.

So, it was the Brits who were stoning women for adultery in Zarqa whilst the "liberal" Imams decried such barbarism?

ROFL

What a fucking pile - you're just a liar for Allah.

Have you ever looked at how they treated natives in some of those colonies - particularly Africa? Might be useful to do some research: Leopold II of Belgium - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

good idea -----it would be good to understand how muslim colonialists treated "natives" who resisted islam, too

Pissing contests aren't very enlightening, but if you really want to compare body counts then Europe is going to be able to beat Islamic military expansion any day in terms of numbers of bodies. Europeans were simply better equipped to kill people and invade more land than Muslim states were and so they did kill more people. It isn't even a contest.

 

[Osomir]

Oh----I don't see dates-----presbyopia what are the dates---------I have come across all sorts of "LEFT OVER FROM THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE" issues in the area-----that which the OTTOMANS called things and did things or designated things-----remain at issue

I literally don't know what you are attempting to communicate here. Your English isn't very clear sometimes. Would you please try again through the use of complete sentences?

my writing is clear-----you mentioned dates on the maps----I do not see dates. However ----when looking at dates and the INTERNATIONAL issue-----those people who actually do have some insight into the area understand that laws and customs and circumstances that precede the change (in this case the break up of the OTTOMAN EMPIRE post world war I) continue to STAY IN PLACE -----no matter what the newly placed authorities WISH TO HAPPEN or "BE"

If one is familiar with Ottoman era history one can date a map by looking at what it contains. It should be pretty clear that the time frame of his map in no way aligns to the time frame that I was discussing (post WWI).

 

[Uncensored2008]

Have you ever looked at how they treated natives in some of those colonies - particularly Africa? Might be useful to do some research: Leopold II of Belgium - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Irrelevant to your claim. Is straw man bullshit the best you can do?

Your claim is that the Arab nationalists were "liberal" in contrast to the colonial powers - complete horseshit.

 

[irosie91]

I'm still waiting for a Muslim mass rally denouncing 9/11. I side with Pamela Geller.

It's always interesting to see who sides with hate.

it's always interesting to see how the HATERS WITH THE MOSTEST HATE------redefine "hate"

Justifying the massacre of children by a terrorist would, in my mind, constitute hate.

yes it would----that is why islamo Nazi pigs tried to create a libel against Ms Pam Geller claiming that she justified
a massacre of children

When you spend an entire blog entry claiming out of one side of your mouth that you do not support his actions (about 2 sentences) and then the rest justifying it and excusing it, it's no libel. But hey - she's Bievnik's idol and your hero!

I don't know about BIEVNIK-------but until the current
event--------I never read a single article she wrote----or accessed her web site. I am not even sure what the meeting in GARLAND TEXAS was all about-----but am looking into it. You make a lot of strange assumptions.
Geller did not JUSTIFY the actions of Bievnik-----she discussed them. Your friend Penelope is more into
justifying your and her hero ADOLF HITLER than Pam Geller justified Bievnik

 

[Osomir]

Have you ever looked at how they treated natives in some of those colonies - particularly Africa? Might be useful to do some research: Leopold II of Belgium - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Irrelevant to your claim. Is straw man bullshit the best you can do?

Your claim is that the Arab nationalists were "liberal" in contrast to the colonial powers - complete horseshit.

That was me that it came from and that wasn't my claim either. My claim was that Islamic modernists and the sub-set of Islamic liberalists were more liberal than European colonial administrations, and they absolutely were.

 

[irosie91]

Oh----I don't see dates-----presbyopia what are the dates---------I have come across all sorts of "LEFT OVER FROM THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE" issues in the area-----that which the OTTOMANS called things and did things or designated things-----remain at issue

I literally don't know what you are attempting to communicate here. Your English isn't very clear sometimes. Would you please try again through the use of complete sentences?

my writing is clear-----you mentioned dates on the maps----I do not see dates. However ----when looking at dates and the INTERNATIONAL issue-----those people who actually do have some insight into the area understand that laws and customs and circumstances that precede the change (in this case the break up of the OTTOMAN EMPIRE post world war I) continue to STAY IN PLACE -----no matter what the newly placed authorities WISH TO HAPPEN or "BE"

If one is familiar with Ottoman era history one can date a map by looking at what it contains. It should be pretty clear that the time frame of his map in no way aligns to the time frame that I was discussing (post WWI).

OH---ok did you know that women have a far greater problem with TOPOGRAPHY than do men? (it is a function of the RIGHT PARIETAL LOBE----not that women have some problem with the right parietal lobe---just the little part dealing with MAP READING----in fact
women probably have a better grasp at facial expression then do men-----but I believe that is more TEMPORAL LOBE---or tempero-parietal.)). ----just tell me approximate dates

 

[irosie91]

Have you ever looked at how they treated natives in some of those colonies - particularly Africa? Might be useful to do some research: Leopold II of Belgium - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Irrelevant to your claim. Is straw man bullshit the best you can do?

Your claim is that the Arab nationalists were "liberal" in contrast to the colonial powers - complete horseshit.

That was me that it came from and that wasn't my claim either. My claim was that Islamic modernists and the sub-set of Islamic liberalists were more liberal than European colonial administrations, and they absolutely were.

oh-----of course ------ATATURK's crowd-----even pre ataturk-------much more liberal ------the misery inflicted on people ----especially minorities, came from the LOCAL TYRANTS-------no doubt. And, or course there was the intense TRIBALISM -----

 

[Osomir]

Oh----I don't see dates-----presbyopia what are the dates---------I have come across all sorts of "LEFT OVER FROM THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE" issues in the area-----that which the OTTOMANS called things and did things or designated things-----remain at issue

I literally don't know what you are attempting to communicate here. Your English isn't very clear sometimes. Would you please try again through the use of complete sentences?

my writing is clear-----you mentioned dates on the maps----I do not see dates. However ----when looking at dates and the INTERNATIONAL issue-----those people who actually do have some insight into the area understand that laws and customs and circumstances that precede the change (in this case the break up of the OTTOMAN EMPIRE post world war I) continue to STAY IN PLACE -----no matter what the newly placed authorities WISH TO HAPPEN or "BE"

If one is familiar with Ottoman era history one can date a map by looking at what it contains. It should be pretty clear that the time frame of his map in no way aligns to the time frame that I was discussing (post WWI).

OH---ok did you know that women have a far greater problem with TOPOGRAPHY than do men? (it is a function of the RIGHT PARIETAL LOBE----not that women have some problem with the right parietal lobe---just the little part dealing with MAP READING----in fact
women probably have a better grasp at facial expression then do men-----but I believe that is more TEMPORAL LOBE---or tempero-parietal.)). ----just tell me approximate dates

The map he posted is a Turkish map published in 1332 (so early 20th century) and depicts a Turkish look at what they thought Asia Minor looked like before the birth of Jesus. It isn't even a map of the Ottoman Empire at all.

 

[irosie91]

Oh----I don't see dates-----presbyopia what are the dates---------I have come across all sorts of "LEFT OVER FROM THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE" issues in the area-----that which the OTTOMANS called things and did things or designated things-----remain at issue

I literally don't know what you are attempting to communicate here. Your English isn't very clear sometimes. Would you please try again through the use of complete sentences?

my writing is clear-----you mentioned dates on the maps----I do not see dates. However ----when looking at dates and the INTERNATIONAL issue-----those people who actually do have some insight into the area understand that laws and customs and circumstances that precede the change (in this case the break up of the OTTOMAN EMPIRE post world war I) continue to STAY IN PLACE -----no matter what the newly placed authorities WISH TO HAPPEN or "BE"

If one is familiar with Ottoman era history one can date a map by looking at what it contains. It should be pretty clear that the time frame of his map in no way aligns to the time frame that I was discussing (post WWI).

OH---ok did you know that women have a far greater problem with TOPOGRAPHY than do men? (it is a function of the RIGHT PARIETAL LOBE----not that women have some problem with the right parietal lobe---just the little part dealing with MAP READING----in fact
women probably have a better grasp at facial expression then do men-----but I believe that is more TEMPORAL LOBE---or tempero-parietal.)). ----just tell me approximate dates

The map he posted is a Turkish map published in 1332 (so around the late 19th century early 20th century) and depicts a Turkish look at what they thought Asia Minor looked like before the birth of Jesus. It isn't even a map of the Ottoman Empire at all.

oh ----thanks-----but actually----I could not really make it out anyway. PALESTINA is a ----greek and roman
construct------and consisted of lots of land-----the romans seemed to think of it in a general way as JUDEA sorta---
Judea for jews is really more like----I think the west bank but----maybe part of Transjordan but I am not sure

 

[Coyote]

Have you ever looked at how they treated natives in some of those colonies - particularly Africa? Might be useful to do some research: Leopold II of Belgium - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Irrelevant to your claim. Is straw man bullshit the best you can do?

Your claim is that the Arab nationalists were "liberal" in contrast to the colonial powers - complete horseshit.

Speaking of straw man bullshit - I did not make that claim.

 

[Coyote]

It's always interesting to see who sides with hate.

it's always interesting to see how the HATERS WITH THE MOSTEST HATE------redefine "hate"

Justifying the massacre of children by a terrorist would, in my mind, constitute hate.

yes it would----that is why islamo Nazi pigs tried to create a libel against Ms Pam Geller claiming that she justified
a massacre of children

When you spend an entire blog entry claiming out of one side of your mouth that you do not support his actions (about 2 sentences) and then the rest justifying it and excusing it, it's no libel. But hey - she's Bievnik's idol and your hero!

I don't know about BIEVNIK-------but until the current
event--------I never read a single article she wrote----or accessed her web site. I am not even sure what the meeting in GARLAND TEXAS was all about-----but am looking into it. You make a lot of strange assumptions.
Geller did not JUSTIFY the actions of Bievnik-----she discussed them. Your friend Penelope is more into
justifying your and her hero ADOLF HITLER than Pam Geller justified Bievnik

For someone who knows nothing about Geller you spend a lot of time defending her and claiming libel

P.S. I've never defended Hitler, now you're just throwing mud

 

[Osomir]

I literally don't know what you are attempting to communicate here. Your English isn't very clear sometimes. Would you please try again through the use of complete sentences?

my writing is clear-----you mentioned dates on the maps----I do not see dates. However ----when looking at dates and the INTERNATIONAL issue-----those people who actually do have some insight into the area understand that laws and customs and circumstances that precede the change (in this case the break up of the OTTOMAN EMPIRE post world war I) continue to STAY IN PLACE -----no matter what the newly placed authorities WISH TO HAPPEN or "BE"

If one is familiar with Ottoman era history one can date a map by looking at what it contains. It should be pretty clear that the time frame of his map in no way aligns to the time frame that I was discussing (post WWI).

OH---ok did you know that women have a far greater problem with TOPOGRAPHY than do men? (it is a function of the RIGHT PARIETAL LOBE----not that women have some problem with the right parietal lobe---just the little part dealing with MAP READING----in fact
women probably have a better grasp at facial expression then do men-----but I believe that is more TEMPORAL LOBE---or tempero-parietal.)). ----just tell me approximate dates

The map he posted is a Turkish map published in 1332 (so around the late 19th century early 20th century) and depicts a Turkish look at what they thought Asia Minor looked like before the birth of Jesus. It isn't even a map of the Ottoman Empire at all.

oh ----thanks-----but actually----I could not really make it out anyway. PALESTINA is a ----greek and roman
construct------and consisted of lots of land-----the romans seemed to think of it in a general way as JUDEA sorta---
Judea for jews is really more like----I think the west bank but----maybe part of Transjordan but I am not sure

Ottoman boundaries for the region tended to be highly fluid (no strong set borders). That's actually the way that Ottoman boundaries tended to work in general: particularly in the periphery of the empire. It really all depended on how strong Ottoman control was at any given time. At its most robust we generally saw the eastern boundaries pushed as far east as modern day Amman in Jordan, which is not "all of Jordan" as uncensored claimed. Nor are Ottoman boundaries reflective of how Arabs saw themselves. Jordan as of now is officially a Hashemite Kingdom which means its leadership has roots in the Arabian Peninsula which composes a significantly different Arab identity and even lingual sub structure than Palestinians identify with which tends to be far more Levantine.

 

[Osomir]

European borders were generally poorly reflective of Arab identities as well. Here is a rough picture of different lingual sub-cultures within Arabic interposed over a modern map of the region:

 

[irosie91]

it's always interesting to see how the HATERS WITH THE MOSTEST HATE------redefine "hate"

Justifying the massacre of children by a terrorist would, in my mind, constitute hate.

yes it would----that is why islamo Nazi pigs tried to create a libel against Ms Pam Geller claiming that she justified
a massacre of children

When you spend an entire blog entry claiming out of one side of your mouth that you do not support his actions (about 2 sentences) and then the rest justifying it and excusing it, it's no libel. But hey - she's Bievnik's idol and your hero!

I don't know about BIEVNIK-------but until the current
event--------I never read a single article she wrote----or accessed her web site. I am not even sure what the meeting in GARLAND TEXAS was all about-----but am looking into it. You make a lot of strange assumptions.
Geller did not JUSTIFY the actions of Bievnik-----she discussed them. Your friend Penelope is more into
justifying your and her hero ADOLF HITLER than Pam Geller justified Bievnik

For someone who knows nothing about Geller you spend a lot of time defending her and claiming libel

P.S. I've never defended Hitler, now you're just throwing mud

you have never objected to the fact that your good friend,
PENELOPE does-------your statement that I spend lots of time DEFENDING pam geller is yet another of your filthy lies. I have never mentioned her at all-----although she was often mentioned on this message board in the past ------until this VERY RECENT episode. It was only since the episode became an issue that I took a look at
her stuff--------why do you lie so frequently? I never accessed her website----because I do not USE websites
devoted to a POV -----even the websites of those I consider very fair scholars------like ROBERT SPENCER
(his book was very fine----accurate and scholarly and worth reading)

 

[Coyote]

Justifying the massacre of children by a terrorist would, in my mind, constitute hate.

yes it would----that is why islamo Nazi pigs tried to create a libel against Ms Pam Geller claiming that she justified
a massacre of children

When you spend an entire blog entry claiming out of one side of your mouth that you do not support his actions (about 2 sentences) and then the rest justifying it and excusing it, it's no libel. But hey - she's Bievnik's idol and your hero!

I don't know about BIEVNIK-------but until the current
event--------I never read a single article she wrote----or accessed her web site. I am not even sure what the meeting in GARLAND TEXAS was all about-----but am looking into it. You make a lot of strange assumptions.
Geller did not JUSTIFY the actions of Bievnik-----she discussed them. Your friend Penelope is more into
justifying your and her hero ADOLF HITLER than Pam Geller justified Bievnik

For someone who knows nothing about Geller you spend a lot of time defending her and claiming libel

P.S. I've never defended Hitler, now you're just throwing mud

you have never objected to the fact that your good friend,
PENELOPE does-------

Sure I have. You just don't read it.

your statement that I spend lots of time DEFENDING pam geller is yet another of your filthy lies. I have never mentioned her at all-----although she was often mentioned on this message board in the past ------until this VERY RECENT episode. It was only since the episode became an issue that I took a look at
her stuff--------why do you lie so frequently? I never accessed her website----because I do not USE websites
devoted to a POV -----even the websites of those I consider very fair scholars------like ROBERT SPENCER
(his book was very fine----accurate and scholarly and worth reading)

Well you certainly jumped into several Geller threads hear roaring to her defense