Zone1 Are all people equally valuable?

[buttercup]

I always thought the belief that since there are so many different perceptions of God that there can be no God was an idiotic argument. I'm not sure if it's at the top of the list but it's right there as far as idiotic arguments go.
And the whole diversification of atheistic classifications is almost as equally idiotic.

Same here, but for me it's the question itself. I don't necessarily believe that atheists come to the conclusion there is no God simply because there are so many different perceptions of God.

But just the fact that they always ask that question "What god, there are thousands of gods?" to me shows mental laziness, and an insincerity when it comes to finding the actual truth no matter where it leads.

Anyone who sincerely wants to know the truth about God, and which religion is true would seek the truth on their own, instead of demanding that others prove it to them while at the same time being closed off to anything that goes against their preconceived ideas. In other words, it's an insincere question.

And it's really not that hard! One can study the different world religions and compare the claims made, and see which one is backed up by evidence and valid arguments. Plus, one can simply ask God to reveal His existence, and if that person genuinely, sincerely wants to find God, then I believe they will, God will open their eyes at the right time. Jesus said "Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you."

But all of this is getting off topic.

That is one of the reasons why I didn't want to let TruthNotBS dictate the terms of controversy on my own thread and derail it, because I intuitively knew his true motivation for posting on this thread. I don't believe he wanted to discuss the actual topic, but to do his usual attacking and mocking of Christianity. And I was right from the start, he actually confirmed what I suspected about his true motivation, when he said "I'm going to continue exposing your silly beliefs, and I don't care how you feel about it." in post #144.

 

[Arlette]

I always thought the belief that since there are so many different perceptions of God that there can be no God was an idiotic argument. I'm not sure if it's at the top of the list but it's right there as far as idiotic arguments go.
And the whole diversification of atheistic classifications is almost as equally idiotic.

Yup. Atheism is an attitude. The attitude that facts establish truth. I don't know why there isn't a term for people who reject astrology or alchemy, but it's the same attitude.

 

[Meriweather]

I believe you're shutting off your reason when it comes to religion or the question of God. I also admitted that you're an intelligent, articulate person, so you're overreacting, don't you think? I'm not denigrating you at all, but rather saying that you seem quite intelligent, well-educated, and articulate, and I'm sure you're quite competent and mature in many areas of your life, but when it comes to these religious issues, you're willingly stupid. Wilfully ignorant.

When a brain is not functioning, there is no entity present. You objected when you said another poster claimed you were demonic. At least you were being regarded as an entity. Therefore, I bursting out laughing and noted, that under the circumstances, I found your response humorous. If laughing and humor are overreacting, then indeed, I overreacted.

You are denigrating me, noting my brain is not functioning, and a non-functioning brain makes one nothing.

Here are a couple of things for you to consider: What if, at a very young age, I was determined to seek God. Jesus once noted that blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe. What if I am no longer under this blessing because I have seen? What if one of my greatest interests is the study and research into the Bible, Judaism, and Christianity? What if, throughout my life, living the ways of the Bible which pertain to me have brought great joy and blessings into my secular life? Is my brain still switched off--in your opinion?

Crediting the great amount of time over decades (time simply not available to others) in Bibical research and study, it is easier for me to see the part of scripture on which someone focuses--and all the parts they have skipped past. That is all I did with my post to you: I noted what was chosen and then noted what was skipped past. Instead of seeing this as a working brain, all you see is the off switch.

You did not see me--a person who knows God is; a person who has had experiences of God; a person who wanted to understand the Bible from top to bottom, start to finish. I am not in this religion forum or any other to change anyone's mind about God, their faith, their denomination or their atheism. I merely offer information to further understanding of why others believe as they do.

 

[Donald H]

Same here, but for me it's the question itself. I don't necessarily believe that atheists come to the conclusion there is no God simply because there are so many different perceptions of God.

You're right about that.
But the Catholic church has covered all the bases with the granting of permission to believe what you like concerning the differences of opinions.

That's really just saying that their church needs to be tolerant to survive fast progress of modern science.

I.D'ers didn't heed the message and then suffered the consequences of intolerance.

 

[Donald H]

Yup. Atheism is an attitude. The attitude that facts establish truth.

Facts do establish truth. You must have meant to say something else.

I don't know why there isn't a term for people who reject astrology or alchemy, but it's the same attitude.

No, it's clearly not the same attitude!

You must have wanted to say that an atheist's 'facts' are not proven facts.

To which you would be offered a challenge by an atheist.

 

[Meriweather]

But the Catholic church has covered all the bases with the granting of permission to believe what you like concerning the differences of opinions.

It is not granting permission because the Church notes this in not under the purview of its authority. It's authority is to proclaim the Gospel as Jesus taught, as far as it can (to the ends of the Earth); as much as it can. As Jesus gave no instructions on many things, humanity is left to think for itself. Still, it behooves us to take time out from these other studies to remember what Jesus did teach, and act on these teachings as well. I recommend starting with the Beatitudes, but there are other launching places I am sure work just as well.

 

[Arlette]

Facts do establish truth. You must have meant to say something else.

No, it's clearly not the same attitude!

You must have wanted to say that an atheist's 'facts' are not proven facts.

To which you would be offered a challenge by an atheist.

Huh? Facts establish truth and religious texts like the Bible are short on facts.

 

[buttercup]

good one Truth

No, it's really not, it's a Captain Obvious statement! lol. OF COURSE Christians disbelieve all the other "gods" out there.

The very nature of truth is exclusive. 2 +2 =4. It excludes all the wrong answers. So if two or more religions make claims about God that contradict each other, then they can't all be true at the same time. That would go against the law of non-contradiction, one of the most basic laws of logic.

Some religions might teach that there are multiple gods, but that is wrong and illogical, for many reasons. It would take too long to elaborate on that, and it's off topic. But for now I'll just say this. Jesus said: “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” What Jesus said goes along with the nature of truth itself. It is exclusive. There are not multiple answers that contradict each other. Again, that would go against basic logic. There is only ONE true God, and God IS truth.

 

[Anathema]

Ok, I guarantee you that if you searched you find people to your liking, who aren't judgmental, and who don't care what you look like.

Exactly how many racist, sexist, isolationist, nationalist, traditional values folks and YOU know? Not a whole lot of them here in New England.

 

[TruthNotBS]

When a brain is not functioning, there is no entity present. You objected when you said another poster claimed you were demonic. At least you were being regarded as an entity. Therefore, I bursting out laughing and noted, that under the circumstances, I found your response humorous. If laughing and humor are overreacting, then indeed, I overreacted.

You are denigrating me, noting my brain is not functioning, and a non-functioning brain makes one nothing.

Here are a couple of things for you to consider: What if, at a very young age, I was determined to seek God. Jesus once noted that blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe. What if I am no longer under this blessing because I have seen? What if one of my greatest interests is the study and research into the Bible, Judaism, and Christianity? What if, throughout my life, living the ways of the Bible which pertain to me have brought great joy and blessings into my secular life? Is my brain still switched off--in your opinion?

Crediting the great amount of time over decades (time simply not available to others) in Bibical research and study, it is easier for me to see the part of scripture on which someone focuses--and all the parts they have skipped past. That is all I did with my post to you: I noted what was chosen and then noted what was skipped past. Instead of seeing this as a working brain, all you see is the off switch.

You did not see me--a person who knows God is; a person who has had experiences of God; a person who wanted to understand the Bible from top to bottom, start to finish. I am not in this religion forum or any other to change anyone's mind about God, their faith, their denomination or their atheism. I merely offer information to further understanding of why others believe as they

Religious gobbledygook. Sad really. I'm sure you're quite smart in other areas of your life but when it comes to this, you're in Lalaland.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Even some very highly intelligent people who believe in modern science, believe in a god too. We all should be trying to find an explanation for why that's true?

I've never heard a better explanation than it being the equivalent of the duck hatching and seeing th Fox as its mother.

The highly intelligent believer has adopted beliefs in childhood that will stay with them for the rest of their lives.

We should try to base our beliefs on reason, and rational thinking. Patterns of thought and behavior that contribute to our survival and well-being, personally and as a community, a species. I see religion as an obsolete, human coping mechanism. Some religions are harmless and perhaps even good, but others aren't.

 

[westwall]

Exactly how many racist, sexist, isolationist, nationalist, traditional values folks and YOU know? Not a whole lot of them here in New England.

Surprisingly quite a few. They aren't that hard to find if you actually look!

 

[Donald H]

We should try to base our beliefs on reason, and rational thinking. Patterns of thought and behavior that contribute to our survival and well-being, personally and as a community, a species. I see religion as an obsolete, human coping mechanism. Some religions are harmless and perhaps even good, but others aren't.

Of course I agree and so we can and should investigate what is safe to believe, as opposed to what is contrary to our well-being and survival as a species.

However, a forum in which Christian believers are voicing opinions, can't be conducive to making progress. To achieve that, we need to leave the religion section and move over to the 'science' heading, where a discussion might be possible?.

Specifically in my opinion and as an example: The fundamental reason why a very highly intelligent adult can believe in the bible's god?

So I'll only disagree with you saying that some religions are good. No religion can be exclusively good, by definition alone.
Some of their teaching can possibly be good. Most wrongheaded and only offered as comforting with a high price tag.

 

[ding]

I don't suggest there isn't a GOD but think about it. Is it likely that there is a being that is infinite, perfect, by necessity, and yet would be as petty to care what particular religion you join? Does this being even know what it is to be a mortal, vulnerable human? Is this entity really in a moral position to be judging and condemning other beings that have it as rough as we do, while it/he/she, is living in its perfectly safe and secure state, of infinite abundance?

Has he ever truly walked in the shoes of ding? He's going to judge and perhaps even condemn ding, to hell? It's just nonsense. I have to believe this or else I'm tortured forever. It's just ridiculous and I suspect you know this because like Meri, you're also quite intelligent and articulate. Smart people, out of what I suspect is fear, if not terror, feel compelled to believe gobbledygook. A bunch of religious, manipulative claptrap. It's dangerous and sad. Dangerous, because when we have smart people that are under a religious delusion, we get wars, genocide..etc. Good people, doing horrible things, under the impression that this is what their deity wants them to do.

I wouldn't say teaching civility and providing hope is gobbledygook. But why are you basing your beliefs of God on what this or that religion teaches? Or more accurately what your selective understanding of it teaches? Because I really don't have the time or desire to correct you on religions not your own. Suffice it to say that if every person held your opinions there would be no one in any church. But since there are a great many people who do belong to churches, the most logical explanation is that you aren't seeing the full picture. Bottom line, you have plenty of examples of places that abolished religion. They were all worse than the ones that didn't.

 

[BreezeWood]

OF COURSE Christians disbelieve all the other "gods" out there.

there are three desert religions that differ in belief of the same deity ... mythology does not have the same issue for a general heavenly perspective referring as deities in the plural.

bigotry is the blind folders of the desert.

 

[buttercup]

You're right about that.
But the Catholic church has covered all the bases with the granting of permission to believe what you like concerning the differences of opinions.

That's really just saying that their church needs to be tolerant to survive fast progress of modern science.

I.D'ers didn't heed the message and then suffered the consequences of intolerance.

I wouldn't trust any church that kowtows to society or fallible mankind, as opposed to timeless truths that come from God.

Romans 12:2 (which is one of my favorite scriptures) states this clearly:

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."​

And there are tons more scriptures that teach basically the same thing.

Even though you're not a believer, I think it's good that you seem to understand that churches that "cover all their bases" instead of taking an actual stand are being doubleminded.

 

[ding]

Same here, but for me it's the question itself. I don't necessarily believe that atheists come to the conclusion there is no God simply because there are so many different perceptions of God.

But just the fact that they always ask that question "What god, there are thousands of gods?" to me shows mental laziness, and an insincerity when it comes to finding the actual truth no matter where it leads.

Anyone who sincerely wants to know the truth about God, and which religion is true would seek the truth on their own, instead of demanding that others prove it to them while at the same time being closed off to anything that goes against their preconceived ideas. In other words, it's an insincere question.

And it's really not that hard! One can study the different world religions and compare the claims made, and see which one is backed up by evidence and valid arguments. Plus, one can simply ask God to reveal His existence, and if that person genuinely, sincerely wants to find God, then I believe they will, God will open their eyes at the right time. Jesus said "Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you."

But all of this is getting off topic.

That is one of the reasons why I didn't want to let TruthNotBS dictate the terms of controversy on my own thread and derail it, because I intuitively knew his true motivation for posting on this thread. I don't believe he wanted to discuss the actual topic, but to do his usual attacking and mocking of Christianity. And I was right from the start, he actually confirmed what I suspected about his true motivation, when he said "I'm going to continue exposing your silly beliefs, and I don't care how you feel about it." in post #144.

I agree that atheists don't come to the conclusion there is no God because there are so many different perceptions of God. It's just one of their arrows in their quiver.

There are three possible states; we are either moving towards God or moving away from God or stationary in our walk. These states can and do change as we live a long life. But regardless of where we are at in our walk, God's love for us never changes and that applies even to those who don't believe in God because we are all equally valued by God.

So to your point, each person will come to know God in a way that works for them. There aren't thousands of Gods. There are thousands of perceptions of God.

 

[buttercup]

There are three possible states; we are either moving towards God or moving away from God or stationary in our walk. These states can and do change as we live a long life. But regardless of where we are at in our walk, God's love for us never changes and that applies even to those who don't believe in God because we are all equally valued by God.

Amen! And wow, you brought things back to the actual topic in that last sentence, thank you, lol!

 

[ding]

Yup. Atheism is an attitude. The attitude that facts establish truth. I don't know why there isn't a term for people who reject astrology or alchemy, but it's the same attitude.

I agree that facts establish truth. So my rejecting the ridiculously large positive feedbacks associated with CO2 is an atheism of sorts?

 

[Donald H]

I wouldn't say teaching civility and providing hope is gobbledygook. But why are you basing your beliefs of God on what this or that religion teaches? Or more accurately what your selective understanding of it teaches? Because I really don't have the time or desire to correct you on religions not your own. Suffice it to say that if every person held your opinions there would be no one in any church. But since there are a great many people who do belong to churches, the most logical explanation is that you aren't seeing the full picture. Bottom line, you have plenty of examples of places that abolished religion. They were all worse than the ones that didn't.

To the credit of Christianity, most of the different churches stopped sending unbaptized babies to the firelake.

But that's no comfort to the hundreds of millions who went there before the bible's revisions.

How can we respect that? The churches that abolished that practice weren't worse than the ones that still do it.