Zone1 Are any Christians here interested to know WHY Jews don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah?

[Lisa558]

I may or may not “restrain” myself. Lol. Since I don’t know what you’ve heard.

I’m not particularly religious. I believe in God. I don’t believe God believes in religion. So I’m not an authority on who qualifies as the Messiah. I can discuss these things only based on the various scriptures and prophecies.

I’ll take a peek at #10.

Just bear in mind that the only scriptures that count to regular Jews are those in the OT.

 

[BackAgain]

Just bear in mind that the only scriptures that count to regular Jews are those in the OT.

I would have assumed as much. But as I understand it, the OT references quite a lot of prophecies.

 

[Lisa558]

I would have assumed as much. But as I understand it, the OT references quite a lot of prophecies.

Yes, it does - lots of prophets. (Jesus was not one, btw.)

The OT outlines how we will know the Messiah has come, and none of it is fulfilled with Jesus - either his lineage, or what would happen.

Also, I find it hard to believe that Jesus actually said the only way to Heaven is through him. I know the NT attributes that to him, but the concept that anyone is supreme above any others is antithetical to Judaism, and I don’t believe a practicing Jew would make such a claim.

The Messiah of Judaism will be a mortal man.

 

[BackAgain]

Having read post #10, I believe it would be pointless for me to engage in the discussion.

A. I’m not at all versed in OT prophecies.

B. They appear to be subject to misinterpretation on both sides of the “debate.”

C. I don’t really have a vested interest on one side or the other. (I’m not Jewish. And although raised as a Christian, I doubt my religious beliefs meet the tests of the Christian faith.)

D. Anything I contribute might cause offense to one side or the other. That would suck.

So, I’ll leave you all to your discussion.

Play nice. And happy holidays to all.

 

[Lisa558]

Having read post #10, I believe it would be pointless for me to engage in the discussion.

A. I’m not at all versed in OT prophecies.

B. They appear to be subject to misinterpretation on both sides of the “debate.”

C. I don’t really have a vested interest on one side or the other. (I’m not Jewish. And although raised as a Christian, I doubt my religious beliefs meet the tests of the Christian faith.)

D. Anything I contribute might cause offense to one side or the other. That would suck.

So, I’ll leave you all to your discussion.

Play nice. And happy holidays to all.

Thank you for your well-reasoned response. And a happy holiday to you as well.

 

[BackAgain]

Thank you for your well-reasoned response. And a happy holiday to you as well.

Thanks.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

just wanted to be able to tell Christians why he does NOT fulfill the prophesies, in accordance with the Torah. (And yet you still had to get in another dig with “and he DOES fulfill the prophecy

But we don't agree. But you don't want responses. So what's the point if you don't want discussion.

 

[Meriweather]

Also, I find it hard to believe that Jesus actually said the only way to Heaven is through him.

Does the Torah/Tanakh speak of The Way; of Truth; of Light?

 

[Lisa558]

Does the Torah/Tanakh speak of The Way; of Truth; of Light?

Not that I’m aware, but Indeependent would know better. Unless of course you mean, “In the beginning, let there be light,” type of thing, but I don’t think you do.

 

[Meriweather]

Not that I’m aware, but Indeependent would know better. Unless of course you mean, “In the beginning, let there be light,” type of thing, but I don’t think you do.

It would be more instruction, about living in the best way, living in truth, living in light.

 

[Lisa558]

It would be more instruction, about living in the best way, living in truth, living in light.

We don’t use those terms in the OT - the way, the truth, the light - although there certainly is plenty of “instruction,” otherwise known as the laws, as to how to live a good, moral life.

 

[irosie91]

Jesus doesn't fit the prophecies. He wasn't an anointed warrior king and he didn't vanquish the enemies of the Jews.

More and more of the same old bullshit repeated on these boards ad infinitum. For the record neither the word MOSHIACH or the concept of this or that
moshiach approximates Suradie's description. ---The word itself refers to an annointed leader ---which would imply that some smart, special guy (like the prophet Samuel) ----recognized and appointed him.
Nor does the word imply a person born of a "virgin" or even a miracle worker (depending on what is
called "miracle") The moshiach it is NOT a superman who knocks off DA ENEMEEEES OF DA JOOOOS. It is a big shot leader who fixes up the planet to peace, good works, holiness-----a new era in human experience which has, CLEARLY, NOT HAPPENED.
"Warrior King" is a christian concept----like the mass
murderer---Richard the Lion-Hearted

 

[Meriweather]

Also, I find it hard to believe that Jesus actually said the only way to Heaven is through him. I know the NT attributes that to him, but the concept that anyone is supreme above any others is antithetical to Judaism, and I don’t believe a practicing Jew would make such a claim.

The reason for my question is that Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the Father except through me." This is in John's Gospel around the time of Passover. Around the time of Passover, Jesus was also having trouble with some of the Scribes and Pharisees in his time. He told his followers, "Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice."

In that context, Jesus' words make a great deal of sense, as he was living his words. Keep in mind that Jesus was friendly with several Pharisees, and seemed to enjoy discussions with them. There were others in positions of authority he clashed with.

 

[fncceo]

Sometimes the prophecies are wrong

Then they aren't really prophecies ... just wild speculation ...

 

[surada]

More and more of the same old bullshit repeated on these boards ad infinitum. For the record neither the word MOSHIACH or the concept of this or that
moshiach approximates Suradie's description. ---The word itself refers to an annointed leader ---which would imply that some smart, special guy (like the prophet Samuel) ----recognized and appointed him.
Nor does the word imply a person born of a "virgin" or even a miracle worker (depending on what is
called "miracle") The moshiach it is NOT a superman who knocks off DA ENEMEEEES OF DA JOOOOS. It is a big shot leader who fixes up the planet to peace, good works, holiness-----a new era in human experience which has, CLEARLY, NOT HAPPENED.
"Warrior King" is a christian concept----like the mass
murderer---Richard the Lion-Hearted

The Jewish encyclopedia says an anointed warrior king like David who would vanquish the enemies of the Jews. I posted a link earlier.

 

[Lisa558]

The reason for my question is that Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the Father except through me." This is in John's Gospel around the time of Passover. Around the time of Passover, Jesus was also having trouble with some of the Scribes and Pharisees in his time. He told his followers, "Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice."

In that context, Jesus' words make a great deal of sense, as he was living his words. Keep in mind that Jesus was friendly with several Pharisees, and seemed to enjoy discussions with them. There were others in positions of authority he clashed with.

Yes, I’m aware that the phrase “the way, the truth, and the light,“ is from the New Testament.

I am also aware that John said that Jesus said that. But John is a late gospel, and the most antisemitic. By that time, early Christians were frustrated that so many Jews held firm to their traditional beliefs, and so John brought out the big guns, so to speak.

It has caused a lot of annoyance and anger to Jews who STILL have to hear it, and usually uttered by Christians who are exasperated that the stubborn Jews just won’t get with the program.

I remember one time a woman told me, for the 20th time, that I have to accept Jesus if I want to go to Heaven, and then repeated the statement that every Jew has heard since junior high: “After all,” the woman said, “Jesus said that the only way to the Father is through the son.”

I went home and told my mother about that, and Mom immediately responded, “Jesus didn’t SAY that!” After all, there’s really no proof of it. And the fact is that a practicing Jew would never hold himself up as superior to other people, as a gateway to G-d.

Anyway, the purpose of my thread isn’t to debate whether Jesus was the Messiah or not. My purpose was to explain, from the Jewish perspective, he did not fulfill the prophesies - and so we wait.

 

[Meriweather]

Anyway, the purpose of my thread isn’t to debate whether Jesus was the Messiah or not. My purpose was to explain, from the Jewish perspective, he did not fulfill the prophesies - and so we wait.

As someone noted earlier, Jesus explained several times he was not the Messiah the people were expecting to rule Israel. He did maintain he was anointed, by God, for another mission, and there is no need to go into that in this thread.

That verse isn't just thrown at Jews; there are a number of atheists in my family and they hear it all the time as well. My daughter's roommate was Hindu and she heard it, too, and so on and so forth. You say it is very unlikely any Jew would say something like that. For me, it is even more unlikely that a man who came to announce redemption and salvation to the entire world would then build up a blockade that would keep people out. This is why context is vital, and there are a few contexts that do not make these words a roadblock.

But to return to the Hebrew Bible. Perhaps you could introduce us to a few of your favorite prophets and their messages?

 

[Lisa558]

As someone noted earlier, Jesus explained several times he was not the Messiah the people were expecting to rule Israel. He did maintain he was anointed, by God, for another mission, and there is no need to go into that in this thread.

That verse isn't just thrown at Jews; there are a number of atheists in my family and they hear it all the time as well. My daughter's roommate was Hindu and she heard it, too, and so on and so forth. You say it is very unlikely any Jew would say something like that. For me, it is even more unlikely that a man who came to announce redemption and salvation to the entire world would then build up a blockade that would keep people out. This is why context is vital, and there are a few contexts that do not make these words a roadblock.

But to return to the Hebrew Bible. Perhaps you could introduce us to a few of your favorite prophets and their messages?

Oh wow….that is quite an undertaking, and one I’d like to take on - but tomorrow evening, when I’m less tired. It might even make for a stand-alone thread: something like “Favorite Prophets….and the meaning behind their prophecies.”

Check back here tomorrow, same Bat Time, same Bat Channel! (yes, I’m a child of 60’s TV.)

 

[BS Filter]

what does your quote have to do with life on other planets?

It's not about life on other planets, you stupid jerk. It's about science. You don't have the courage to face the truth that the world's greatest scientist believed that there is an intelligent Spirit guiding the universe.

 

[irosie91]

The Jewish encyclopedia says an anointed warrior king like David who would vanquish the enemies of the Jews. I posted a link earlier.

so? they are mistaken. There is no
where in the
writings of the prophets of the tanach that DO
allude to a "warrior" king' in the messianic era.
In fact, beyond tossing a rock-----there is almost
nothing putting David on the battlefield. Please
repost your link. The KING in the Messianic era
is actually described as a figure head of religion