Are conservative values dying? If so, why?

[francoHFW]

I believe it is. Our country seems to be veering to the left. Why?

I find it very hard to believe it's based on free shit. Not enough Americans are on the public dole to make up for the shift. The left has been successful with their message communication. Be it good or bad we are behind the curve.

I remember getting out of prison with 100 dollars (parole money) and thinking I couldn't wait to get a job and start my life. From being TOTALLY suppoeted by the tax payer to being TOTALLY independent and successful.No other feeling matches being self reliant and knowing I have options I can persue because of conservative values.

Almost makes me think that people have been coddled for so long they have no concept of their own potential.

You know why you guys are becoming irrelevant? Because all you worry about is cutting taxes for rich people. You seem to have no interest in correcting the steadily stagnating wage structure of American workers. This has been happening since Ronald Reagan's "supply side economics," and it is becoming apparent that it was really just a way to fuck over Americans and get rid of labor unions.

This is the "message" part I was talking about.

I don't think or feel that way. The tax cuts were across the board cuts yet they are SUCCESSFULLY labeled cuts for the rich.

And I'd like this discussion to be broad rather than degrade to an argument over one talking point.

Yeah, sure- -then to make up for the shortfall they raise the payroll taxes until they aremore than income taxes, and the states raise fees for EVERYTHING (and local taxes), until the rich triple their wealth while the rest and the country are screwed (NO DEMAND)...

 

[francoHFW]

OP- congrats btw on having your own business, and feeling so proud. Perhaps you knew you'd never get a job with your record. So many people just can't find a job, and hell it's a bad time to try and start a business even if they had that idea...

 

[francoHFW]

OP- Well the last conservative president was a catastrophe, and the Pub propaganda/BS is getting REAL old...as is the NO thing lol. The rest are not conservative values, they're HUMAN values they've tried to preemp. BREAKING: Liberals are rich, hard working, and love their families too duh.

 

[Bfgrn]

I believe it is. Our country seems to be veering to the left. Why?

I find it very hard to believe it's based on free shit. Not enough Americans are on the public dole to make up for the shift. The left has been successful with their message communication. Be it good or bad we are behind the curve.

I remember getting out of prison with 100 dollars (parole money) and thinking I couldn't wait to get a job and start my life. From being TOTALLY suppoeted by the tax payer to being TOTALLY independent and successful.No other feeling matches being self reliant and knowing I have options I can persue because of conservative values.

Almost makes me think that people have been coddled for so long they have no concept of their own potential.

You know why you guys are becoming irrelevant? Because all you worry about is cutting taxes for rich people. You seem to have no interest in correcting the steadily stagnating wage structure of American workers. This has been happening since Ronald Reagan's "supply side economics," and it is becoming apparent that it was really just a way to fuck over Americans and get rid of labor unions.

This is the "message" part I was talking about.

I don't think or feel that way. The tax cuts were across the board cuts yet they are SUCCESSFULLY labeled cuts for the rich.

And I'd like this discussion to be broad rather than degrade to an argument over one talking point.

Freemason9 is right on the money. I was just reading this article before I saw your thread. Check it out.

Remember the Date: This is the Week the Reagan Revolution Died

Excerpt:

The anti-tax, anti-gay and pro-defense positions have been among the cornerstones of the modern Republican Party, birthed in Barry Goldwater's campaign against Nelson Rockefeller, and brought to full flower under Ronald Reagan. And for a quarter century, the electoral coalition of single-issue voting groups -- anti-tax, pro-life, anti-gay, pro-defense, among others -- nurtured by Grover Norquist as the steel tip of the Republican spear thrived and vanquished Democrat dreams, pushing Republicans to the right and Democrats to the center.

The irony is that while Ronald Reagan remains the godhead of the modern Republican Party, it is not on his principles that the GOP today is standing its ground, but instead it is on the older conservative roots that Reagan pushed aside, the fiscal conservatism of Calvin Coolidge. For a quarter century, the Republican Party turned its back on its roots. Ronald Reagan's advocacy of tax cuts when marginal tax rates were 70 percent or higher was transformed into the embrace of tax cuts as a morally self-justifying good, without regard to fiscal consequences. The Party orthodoxy became captive to the unholy alliance of big spenders and tax cutters in its big tent, all the while giving lip service to the old school fiscal conservatives who sat marginalized in the corner. And it shunned, as well, the party's historic standard of liberty writ large as it embraced a social conservatism that was quick to claim the mantle of freedom and liberty even as it denied the liberty interest of gays and women, among others, by redefining liberty along narrow, parochial lines.


"The debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts."
David Stockman - Director of the Office of Management and Budget for U.S. President Ronald Reagan.

 

[francoHFW]

Don't forget the fundies and rednecks lol. Maybe they're disappearing a bit in the Age of Information, as they get more loudmouth and get the feedback on their "facts".....

 

[theHawk]

This is what Gramps is referring to. What made this country great were the Americans that worked their asses off and sacrificed to build lives for themselves and their children. What's causing the decline of the U.S. are Americans that are becoming ever more dependent, lazy and stupid. It's not the republicans' fault, the democrats' fault, the gays' fault, the Christians' fault... it's the American peoples' fault.

And why have people become so dependant and lazy? From free handouts and entitlements, thanks to liberals. Yes, it is partially Republicans faults too, for not fighting against it hard enough. But liberalism spread through the Republican party too.

 

[auditor0007]

I believe it is. Our country seems to be veering to the left. Why?

I find it very hard to believe it's based on free shit. Not enough Americans are on the public dole to make up for the shift. The left has been successful with their message communication. Be it good or bad we are behind the curve.

I remember getting out of prison with 100 dollars (parole money) and thinking I couldn't wait to get a job and start my life. From being TOTALLY suppoeted by the tax payer to being TOTALLY independent and successful.No other feeling matches being self reliant and knowing I have options I can persue because of conservative values.

Almost makes me think that people have been coddled for so long they have no concept of their own potential.

There has been a shift to the left, and it's not because of free shit. It's simply due to the fact that conservative policies have helped to reduce the average workers paycheck and/or cost him his/her job.

Here is a bit of practicality for you; the recession was not caused by liberal policies, the vast majority of our debt was not caused by liberal policies, and the lowering of average earnings by average Americans was not caused by liberal policies. And where conservatives are losing the battle is in the fact they believe just the opposite while the majority of Americans believe the truth, that cutting tax rates to the lowest levels in over 60 years only benefited the very few. It didn't help the middle class at all. Last of all, Americans are not buying the conservative battle cry that it's all the poor man's fault for sucking off of the government. That honestly has to be the stupidest talking point the right has. They blame poor people for not getting jobs to support themselves when the fact is that educated people who have skills can't find jobs. We still have unemployment near 8% and employers are not hiring, but you want poor people with limited skills to go out and get a job, when people who really want jobs can't find one. But you blame it on those poor fucks. Here's a hint; they are not our biggest problem, not even by a long shot.

Conservatives have become extremely hateful and spiteful. I can't stand them anymore, and I used to be one of them, or let's say I leaned that way, because I've never been extreme right like the Republican Party has headed.

 

[auditor0007]

You know why you guys are becoming irrelevant? Because all you worry about is cutting taxes for rich people. You seem to have no interest in correcting the steadily stagnating wage structure of American workers. This has been happening since Ronald Reagan's "supply side economics," and it is becoming apparent that it was really just a way to fuck over Americans and get rid of labor unions.

This is the "message" part I was talking about.

I don't think or feel that way. The tax cuts were across the board cuts yet they are SUCCESSFULLY labeled cuts for the rich.

And I'd like this discussion to be broad rather than degrade to an argument over one talking point.

Freemason9 is right on the money. I was just reading this article before I saw your thread. Check it out.

Remember the Date: This is the Week the Reagan Revolution Died

Excerpt:

The anti-tax, anti-gay and pro-defense positions have been among the cornerstones of the modern Republican Party, birthed in Barry Goldwater's campaign against Nelson Rockefeller, and brought to full flower under Ronald Reagan. And for a quarter century, the electoral coalition of single-issue voting groups -- anti-tax, pro-life, anti-gay, pro-defense, among others -- nurtured by Grover Norquist as the steel tip of the Republican spear thrived and vanquished Democrat dreams, pushing Republicans to the right and Democrats to the center.

The irony is that while Ronald Reagan remains the godhead of the modern Republican Party, it is not on his principles that the GOP today is standing its ground, but instead it is on the older conservative roots that Reagan pushed aside, the fiscal conservatism of Calvin Coolidge. For a quarter century, the Republican Party turned its back on its roots. Ronald Reagan's advocacy of tax cuts when marginal tax rates were 70 percent or higher was transformed into the embrace of tax cuts as a morally self-justifying good, without regard to fiscal consequences. The Party orthodoxy became captive to the unholy alliance of big spenders and tax cutters in its big tent, all the while giving lip service to the old school fiscal conservatives who sat marginalized in the corner. And it shunned, as well, the party's historic standard of liberty writ large as it embraced a social conservatism that was quick to claim the mantle of freedom and liberty even as it denied the liberty interest of gays and women, among others, by redefining liberty along narrow, parochial lines.


"The debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts."
David Stockman - Director of the Office of Management and Budget for U.S. President Ronald Reagan.

While conservatives do look at Reagan as their great conservative leader, he never governed as an extreme conservative. As governor of California, he instituted the largest tax increase the state had ever seen. And as President, he did offset some of his tax cuts with tax increases. He really was a conservative ideologically, but a pragmatist in reality.

 

[KnobbyWalsh]

Conservative values are dying because there are not real conservatives left. They're simply left-wingers with a better line of bullshit.

 

[editec]

I'm so old I remember when NATIONALISM was a conservative value.

 

[Bfgrn]

This is the "message" part I was talking about.

I don't think or feel that way. The tax cuts were across the board cuts yet they are SUCCESSFULLY labeled cuts for the rich.

And I'd like this discussion to be broad rather than degrade to an argument over one talking point.

Freemason9 is right on the money. I was just reading this article before I saw your thread. Check it out.

Remember the Date: This is the Week the Reagan Revolution Died

Excerpt:

The anti-tax, anti-gay and pro-defense positions have been among the cornerstones of the modern Republican Party, birthed in Barry Goldwater's campaign against Nelson Rockefeller, and brought to full flower under Ronald Reagan. And for a quarter century, the electoral coalition of single-issue voting groups -- anti-tax, pro-life, anti-gay, pro-defense, among others -- nurtured by Grover Norquist as the steel tip of the Republican spear thrived and vanquished Democrat dreams, pushing Republicans to the right and Democrats to the center.

The irony is that while Ronald Reagan remains the godhead of the modern Republican Party, it is not on his principles that the GOP today is standing its ground, but instead it is on the older conservative roots that Reagan pushed aside, the fiscal conservatism of Calvin Coolidge. For a quarter century, the Republican Party turned its back on its roots. Ronald Reagan's advocacy of tax cuts when marginal tax rates were 70 percent or higher was transformed into the embrace of tax cuts as a morally self-justifying good, without regard to fiscal consequences. The Party orthodoxy became captive to the unholy alliance of big spenders and tax cutters in its big tent, all the while giving lip service to the old school fiscal conservatives who sat marginalized in the corner. And it shunned, as well, the party's historic standard of liberty writ large as it embraced a social conservatism that was quick to claim the mantle of freedom and liberty even as it denied the liberty interest of gays and women, among others, by redefining liberty along narrow, parochial lines.


"The debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party's embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don't matter if they result from tax cuts."
David Stockman - Director of the Office of Management and Budget for U.S. President Ronald Reagan.

While conservatives do look at Reagan as their great conservative leader, he never governed as an extreme conservative. As governor of California, he instituted the largest tax increase the state had ever seen. And as President, he did offset some of his tax cuts with tax increases. He really was a conservative ideologically, but a pragmatist in reality.

And don't forget Reagan was the first gun control Governor. It was Governor Ronald Reagan of California who signed the Mulford Act in 1967, "prohibiting the carrying of firearms on one's person or in a vehicle, in any public place or on any public street."

 

[Mac1958]

.

Selling people on something, convincing them of an idea, is very difficult because there will always be someone trying to convince them of the opposite.

And if your messengers are flawed -- not likeable, bombastic, annoying, narcissistic, crazed, whatever -- then your task becomes exponentially more difficult.

This ain't rocket science.

.

 

[JoeB131]

I believe it is. Our country seems to be veering to the left. Why?

I find it very hard to believe it's based on free shit. Not enough Americans are on the public dole to make up for the shift. The left has been successful with their message communication. Be it good or bad we are behind the curve.

I remember getting out of prison with 100 dollars (parole money) and thinking I couldn't wait to get a job and start my life. From being TOTALLY suppoeted by the tax payer to being TOTALLY independent and successful.No other feeling matches being self reliant and knowing I have options I can persue because of conservative values.

Almost makes me think that people have been coddled for so long they have no concept of their own potential.

There has been a shift to the left, and it's not because of free shit. It's simply due to the fact that conservative policies have helped to reduce the average workers paycheck and/or cost him his/her job.

Here is a bit of practicality for you; the recession was not caused by liberal policies, the vast majority of our debt was not caused by liberal policies, and the lowering of average earnings by average Americans was not caused by liberal policies. And where conservatives are losing the battle is in the fact they believe just the opposite while the majority of Americans believe the truth, that cutting tax rates to the lowest levels in over 60 years only benefited the very few. It didn't help the middle class at all. Last of all, Americans are not buying the conservative battle cry that it's all the poor man's fault for sucking off of the government. That honestly has to be the stupidest talking point the right has. They blame poor people for not getting jobs to support themselves when the fact is that educated people who have skills can't find jobs. We still have unemployment near 8% and employers are not hiring, but you want poor people with limited skills to go out and get a job, when people who really want jobs can't find one. But you blame it on those poor fucks. Here's a hint; they are not our biggest problem, not even by a long shot.

Conservatives have become extremely hateful and spiteful. I can't stand them anymore, and I used to be one of them, or let's say I leaned that way, because I've never been extreme right like the Republican Party has headed.

Good points, all, but I will add another.

The real problem the GOP has is the same one the Democrats had in the mid-1980's. That the core of the party has become kind of needy and uncomprimising and obsessed with the sitting president and not keen on introducing ideas, just getting reassurances on dogma.

So you had a string of losers who appealed to hatred of Reagan when most people really thought Reagan was an okay guy, even if they didn't agree with him.

Frankly, looking at this board, there were very few arguments FOR Romney and mostly against Obama. And that was the problem. No one could give you a good reason to vote for Romney.

 

[rdean]

I believe it is. Our country seems to be veering to the left. Why?

I find it very hard to believe it's based on free shit. Not enough Americans are on the public dole to make up for the shift. The left has been successful with their message communication. Be it good or bad we are behind the curve.

I remember getting out of prison with 100 dollars (parole money) and thinking I couldn't wait to get a job and start my life. From being TOTALLY suppoeted by the tax payer to being TOTALLY independent and successful.No other feeling matches being self reliant and knowing I have options I can persue because of conservative values.

Almost makes me think that people have been coddled for so long they have no concept of their own potential.

There has been a shift to the left, and it's not because of free shit. It's simply due to the fact that conservative policies have helped to reduce the average workers paycheck and/or cost him his/her job.

Here is a bit of practicality for you; the recession was not caused by liberal policies, the vast majority of our debt was not caused by liberal policies, and the lowering of average earnings by average Americans was not caused by liberal policies. And where conservatives are losing the battle is in the fact they believe just the opposite while the majority of Americans believe the truth, that cutting tax rates to the lowest levels in over 60 years only benefited the very few. It didn't help the middle class at all. Last of all, Americans are not buying the conservative battle cry that it's all the poor man's fault for sucking off of the government. That honestly has to be the stupidest talking point the right has. They blame poor people for not getting jobs to support themselves when the fact is that educated people who have skills can't find jobs. We still have unemployment near 8% and employers are not hiring, but you want poor people with limited skills to go out and get a job, when people who really want jobs can't find one. But you blame it on those poor fucks. Here's a hint; they are not our biggest problem, not even by a long shot.

Conservatives have become extremely hateful and spiteful. I can't stand them anymore, and I used to be one of them, or let's say I leaned that way, because I've never been extreme right like the Republican Party has headed.

Good points, all, but I will add another.

The real problem the GOP has is the same one the Democrats had in the mid-1980's. That the core of the party has become kind of needy and uncomprimising and obsessed with the sitting president and not keen on introducing ideas, just getting reassurances on dogma.

So you had a string of losers who appealed to hatred of Reagan when most people really thought Reagan was an okay guy, even if they didn't agree with him.

Frankly, looking at this board, there were very few arguments FOR Romney and mostly against Obama. And that was the problem. No one could give you a good reason to vote for Romney.

Romney is white.

 

[Some Guy]

Frankly, looking at this board, there were very few arguments FOR Romney and mostly against Obama. And that was the problem. No one could give you a good reason to vote for Romney.

There were plenty of good reasons to vote for Romney in comparison to Obama. Of course, lefties will disagree with them unequivocally because Romney is not a democrat.

 

[auditor0007]

Frankly, looking at this board, there were very few arguments FOR Romney and mostly against Obama. And that was the problem. No one could give you a good reason to vote for Romney.

There were plenty of good reasons to vote for Romney in comparison to Obama. Of course, lefties will disagree with them unequivocally because Romney is not a democrat.

You're missing the point; those on the left and right are not going to change their minds on much of anything. It's those of us in the middle who generally determine elections and the direction that politics take. The majority of those in the middle didn't buy into Romney's fantasy. While most in the middle may not have been thrilled voting for Obama, they did it because the alternative seemed too close to lunacy.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Romney is white.

And you refuse to vote for anyone white.

 

[Gadawg73]

Frankly, looking at this board, there were very few arguments FOR Romney and mostly against Obama. And that was the problem. No one could give you a good reason to vote for Romney.

There were plenty of good reasons to vote for Romney in comparison to Obama. Of course, lefties will disagree with them unequivocally because Romney is not a democrat.

You're missing the point; those on the left and right are not going to change their minds on much of anything. It's those of us in the middle who generally determine elections and the direction that politics take. The majority of those in the middle didn't buy into Romney's fantasy. While most in the middle may not have been thrilled voting for Obama, they did it because the alternative seemed too close to lunacy.

You are right, they bought into Obama's fantasy instead.
A long fantasy of 4 years of "I will cut the deficit in half by the end of my first term"
A fantasy that will destroy this nation.
Romney's fantasy was to lower the deficit.
Better fantasy as it would have become reality within 2 minutes on the job.
Obama has no intention of doing anything to fight waste in government.

 

[Michelle420]

I believe it is. Our country seems to be veering to the left. Why?

I find it very hard to believe it's based on free shit. Not enough Americans are on the public dole to make up for the shift. The left has been successful with their message communication. Be it good or bad we are behind the curve.

I remember getting out of prison with 100 dollars (parole money) and thinking I couldn't wait to get a job and start my life. From being TOTALLY supported by the tax payer to being TOTALLY independent and successful.No other feeling matches being self reliant and knowing I have options I can persue because of conservative values.

Almost makes me think that people have been coddled for so long they have no concept of their own potential.

Mostly veering to the left because the left is more attractive in how they handle social issues.

If your question is genuinely to find out what has changed social issues would be a big factor.

Social issues are not social programs.

However, you did say that you went from 100% dependent to Independent, are you using the prison time as the reference to your dependency?

Some social programs are helpful and successful to take a person from dependency to independent.

They should be given validity and credit when they do work and when they don't work they should be scrapped or revised.

Society today looks at social rights as just as important as fiscal responsibility.

It is perceived by some left-leaners that a rightist point of view lacks compassion on social issues, and would rather have a tough love kind of attitude.

That is a big turn off to people in society today.

If the right wants to connect with people and still be conservative they would win people over they need to be more accepting of different lifestyles and social issues.

I suspect if they did that they would win more over to their side on the fiscal responsibility.

 

[rightwinger]

There were plenty of good reasons to vote for Romney in comparison to Obama. Of course, lefties will disagree with them unequivocally because Romney is not a democrat.

You're missing the point; those on the left and right are not going to change their minds on much of anything. It's those of us in the middle who generally determine elections and the direction that politics take. The majority of those in the middle didn't buy into Romney's fantasy. While most in the middle may not have been thrilled voting for Obama, they did it because the alternative seemed too close to lunacy.

You are right, they bought into Obama's fantasy instead.
A long fantasy of 4 years of "I will cut the deficit in half by the end of my first term"
A fantasy that will destroy this nation.
Romney's fantasy was to lower the deficit.
Better fantasy as it would have become reality within 2 minutes on the job.
Obama has no intention of doing anything to fight waste in government.

Obama didnt cut the deficit in half, he only cut it by a third. If he had been allowed to raise taxes on the wealthy, he would have cut it in half