As many as 10 dead in shooting at Batman premiere in Denver: reports

[bigrebnc1775]

If the gun culture didn't clash head on with the PC culture, this would never have happened.

I just heard an interview with the owner of the gun range where Holmes practiced. The range owner saw that Holmes was losing his grip, but because no crime had been committed there was nothing he could do about it. We can't allow people to go around accusing others of being insane just because they are "different".

Maybe a pshyco analysis should be required as a test for gun owners once a year in the nation now, just like renewing a drivers license or other updating certifications in which we do hold, and for which has to be updated regulary ?

Maybe we should (as someone said earlier), require a liability insurance policy to be held by the gun owner or gun owners of serious assault weapons now. Hec this alone might would subtract from the amount of peope whom want to own such weapons in the future, especially younger people that are seemingly the most dangerous these days. Price it all out of reach from the young people through certification requirements and liability policies in which changes the game on this big time, especially if wanting to own and operate an assault weapon (AR-15's) & gear for example within this united states as a citizen. Wasn't it not long ago, that the police were becoming outgunned and out matched in weaponry in this country, until measures were brought to again put the police back on top of these situations ? Isn't there a major problem down in Mexico, where the drug lords are stronger than the military and the government in that nation now ? I say we vote in a government that is not undermining this nation and it's security as we have seen, and then slowly work our way back off of the plank in which the government has now walked us all out on. I am for freedom in everything possible as well in this nation, just as long as certain things are not being exploited by the bad guy's under those very freedoms in which they are using to kill us with, and all because our government see's us as the enemy instead of the bad guy's anymore, especially when empowering people in this nation by way of our government in which they are doing this and have been doing this for quite sometime now, and in which has created what we see now going in this nation to date.

Maybe a pshyco analysis should be required as a test for gun owners once a year in the nation now, just like renewing a drivers license or other updating certifications in which we do hold, and for which has to be updated regulary ?

The only thing wrong with that is you might have an over zealous anti gun physiatrist that would deem you unfit for a gun. That's way to much power for one person to have.

 

[Full-Auto]

Yes we should do something about it. Arm every man and woman
An armed society is a polite society

Why, because armed people are likely to shoot at you if you're not polite?

"Pass the salt"... BLAM! "You didn't say please."

So the morale of the story for you should be.

Always be polite.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Wow. You don't honestly think I was implying security guards are not civilians, do you? Retard.

Well then...
You said:

Armed civilians don't work together, and are very likely to shoot each other in the commotion thinking there are more than one shooters

How does this not apply to armed security guards?

BTW... its usually useless to hide behind a girlfriend as they usually only stop 2-3 points. Yours? Prolly 12 or so - you're good to go.

First of all, security guards are employed specifically to stop crime and coordinate with fellow guards in a large establishment, and are not simply patrons who happen to have a gun and want to add themselves to the mix... confusing guards and other armed civilians alike.

They are armed civilians.
Why do you assume someone paid to protect your life has more intererst and ability to do so than you do?

Secondly, what's up with the insulting of a fictitious girlfriend of mine. That's super fucking random and incredibly retarded. Great job champ.

Oh.. so you like boys. My apologies.

 

[Borillar]

Why, because armed people are likely to shoot at you if you're not polite?

"Pass the salt"... BLAM! "You didn't say please."

So the morale of the story for you should be.

Always be polite.

Indeed!

 

[Peach]

No it doesn't. Where would you get that idea from? It doesn't work against a plea of incapacity or even insanity. This kind of planning goes to premeditation which might mean he was crazy for quite a while before he committed the murders.

READ THE POST, I WROTE I HOPE! Yes, the mental capacity to plan could be a factor in determining capacity.

You might hope, but you would still be wrong. Having the ability to plan isn't even a consideration much less a factor in determining sanity. You are making the mistake in thinking that a person that is insane is incapable of thinking clearly enough to formulate a plan. The insane actually plan quite well. They are more meticulous in their plans than someone who isn't insane. A person who is insane has no distractions to their plan.

James Holmes will most likely never stand trial for his crimes. He gets arraigned tomorrow where he will be formally charged. Likely his attorney will ask for and get a competency hearing that will find Holmes (like Jared Loughner before him) incompetent to stand trial and there it will sit.

We shall see.

 

[M14 Shooter]

It the government was truly oppressive, it wouldn't hesitate to use its vast arsenals against any uprising. I doubt the militia types would stand much of a chance against the gov't forces even if they had fully auto small arms. Your determined guerilla isn't going to stand much of a chance when a smart bomb gets dropped on his ass.

I'm sorry -- how was is it, exactly that we lost the war in Iraq?

I'm sorry, but I'm missing the point you are trying to make here.

In Iraq, militia types defeated US gov't forces with, among other things, theiir fully auto small arms - they were determined guerilla that stood even when smart bomb were dropped on their asses.
Get it now?

 

[Borillar]

I'm sorry -- how was is it, exactly that we lost the war in Iraq?

I'm sorry, but I'm missing the point you are trying to make here.

In Iraq, militia types defeated US gov't forces with, among other things, theiir fully auto small arms - they were determined guerilla that stood even when smart bomb were dropped on their asses.
Get it now?

Really? I thought we "shock and awed" them back to the stone age. Remember "Mission Accomplished"? Isn't the final death count way in our advantage? 4977 vs 100000 to 650000? They won? Saddam and the Baath party are still in power? I must have been living in an alternative universe these past 10 years.

 

[MuadDib]

"Well regulated" means well functioning as in a well regulated clock keeps accurate time.

 

[Ariux]

The insanity that caused this massacre is the praise heaped upon Heath Ledger as the Joker in the previous Batman movie.

When you make heroes out of villeins, this is what you get.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Would this have happened if guns were banned in the US?

Yes - if the ban wasn't enforced and the penalties for those actually prosecuted were zilch - which is pretty much the case here.
I'll give you an example or two and then the opposing views on what makes sense.
In Arizona, you can buy 50 AR-15 assault rifles and ten minutes later, sell them to a guy who has been convicted of murder - as long as you don't ask him about it and therefore, don't know he is a convicted murderer.
In Los Angeles, police can pull over a known member of the Crips, Bloods or other gang - find him wearing a wig and disguise and carrying an illegally purchased gun. As long as he hasn't been convicted of a felony yet, he'll plea bargain out in an hour because he hasn't actually killed somone... yet.
As long as you can pass the background check one time, you can become an arms dealer without owning a store or anything. You have less than a 1% chance of ever being investigated. Then you can sell pistols, sniper rifles, assault rifles, silencers (ecause you know, that's so necessary for defense) and whatever. Do these people sell guns illegally? Duh.
So it's not a matter of laws. It's a matter of enforcement.
Extreme Liberals have a solution to America's Gun Violence Problem: They want to ban all guns but they are fairly rare.
Moderate LibDems, Moderates and Indies Liberals have a solution to America's Gun Violence Problem: They think gun ownershio is fine but carrying machine guns into the kindergarten or better yet, the bar where you go get drunk, is just plain foolish. I agree. I own a gun but don't take it to the movies or anywhere in the city. It's at home.
Conservatives Liberals have a solution to America's Gun Violence Problem: More guns. I'm not kidding. Oh and less laws. If our laws and their enforcement is too weak now, the solution is to make even less of them. You'll hear cute little chants they've been taught like "If guns are illegal only criminals wil have guns." Well duh. And if child porn is illegal, only criminals will have child porn. So should we make it legal? The anti-logic of this is almost amusing. Oh well. They really do buy it.
My favorite one is when they compare gun ownership to owning a car. Unreal.

Being that the theater was a gun free zone didn't stop the shooter now did it?

thank you for verifying my point about the logic Conservative use, when it comes to guns. Obviously we have a gun violence problem in America. You solution is to add more guns, less laws restricting them and less enforcement.
Just like the way to solve a fire problem is to add more fire and gasoline!
BTW, I've made it clear I don't want to take away people's guns - including my own. But I do think some common sense laws and the ability to enforce them, might be an even better idea, than making sure every citizen is armed to the teeth, everywhere they go. Go figure.

 

[Borillar]

"Well regulated" means well functioning as in a well regulated clock keeps accurate time.

Yeah. Coincidentally, the Swiss are good at making watches too.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Just nope eh ? What about the dead now who are Americans, when their friends and their families want answers, just tell them nope (no answers available) when they ask how to prevent these situations in the future ?

What about them? Am I supposed to collapse in a pile of drooling logical contradictions simply because you play on my emotions? If you have to resort to an emotional appeal you have nothing anyway, so nope is all I need to say.

Still no answer eh?

Still the same answer.

Nope.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I was sitting around this morning and thinking (i.e. being out of the debate for a second in order to reflect), and yes you are right in your quick analogy of my thinking upon the technology not yet being the key in this race, but I bet you that it will be the key to helping stop this sort of thing in the future, because gun owners and the opposing side will never come together on this issue, and so in the mean time people will again die by the hands of an idiot who will arm himself to the teeth found within such a free to all (no matter what) by definition of these gun shows that I see people writing about, along with an anciently run gun enviroment or society in which we are all living in, that allows a certain percentage of this sort of thing to get through or go on in America now, and for what ? Is it because of a refusal and/or a fear to finally begin to update/modernize or bring it all up to the 21st century where it all goes stale on such issues yet again and again? The shooter seems to have all the updates (best guns and best body armor) against a crowd that is like fish in a barrel when these criminal updates are used against them.

Due to what (I guess) is the shooters dark held adolesence still kept, he lived out some sort of evil darknight fantasy character upon the good people of Colorado, and he did this with some gear that should have been impossible for him to have gotten his hands on, but there he was with it on, and worse carrying weapons of mass destruction in his hands, and no one has a clue?

How about the time we had the shoot out in California, where those two's guy's were set up in this same kind of manor when doing that shooting, the cops were helpless as so were the citizens in that situation as well, but here we are down to road aways from that incident, and so many simular shootings later, and people are still able to get these kinds of set up's and weaponry, in order to use on the cops and the good citizens of this nation.

The fact that we don't have that crystal ball you mention, means we should use what God has given us (our own minds), and we should use them in ways that will thwart or prevent more traggedies like this one in everyway possible. Look at the Lays potato chip corporation, they just ask the citizens to try and come up with a new flavors for them in a contest of sorts, do you think that we can't come up with a technology that could assist us in stopping this sort of thing someday ? I don't like the idea that my family or friends are like fish in a barrel, when trying to go out and enjoy themselves in America, but that is pretty much what people have become in America. Now who do we have to thank for that one ?

Yes it is true that the idiotic feds are but one player to blame in the destruction of our society, yet their are many more who are found in groups in this nation, that are to blame as well. This places the good citizens surrounded now by idiots who won't budge one way or the other, and this is all out of fear that it could or would lead to the final fall for anyone of them. Their are groups who are holding on but by a thread it seems anymore, and so there is so much that is being seen as expendable to them in order to hold on. I look at things this a way, how about updating or modernizing before the long stretching arm of the over reaching feds do something stupid yet again and again over these catostrophic issues? Just saying..

PS. the smart key worked in the video, they just pushed the car away...LOL You have no way of knowing how far they pushed the car before they probably gave up or rather they had a trailer waiting out of sight that they pushed it up on. The main thing is that the technology worked, where as before they would have driven the car away, but due to the new tech, they had to settle for pushing the car away. Anyway to slow down or make it far more difficult for criminals to do their thing, I see it as a major plus in my book, and you just added fuel to my fire with that video... B ) My wife even laughed when she saw them pushing that car away...LOL

The ability to bypass security will always outpace security. You want to create some sort of magical system that prevents guns from being misused rather than allow people to protect themselves. There is a really simple solution to keeping tragedies like this from occurring, allow everyone to carry weapons in public.

Damn, you watch a video, and you don't see what happened. They pushed the car away to prevent the owner from hearing it start, then they drove it away. Unless you think they pushed it all the way to to the chop shop?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Yes - if the ban wasn't enforced and the penalties for those actually prosecuted were zilch - which is pretty much the case here.
I'll give you an example or two and then the opposing views on what makes sense.
In Arizona, you can buy 50 AR-15 assault rifles and ten minutes later, sell them to a guy who has been convicted of murder - as long as you don't ask him about it and therefore, don't know he is a convicted murderer.
In Los Angeles, police can pull over a known member of the Crips, Bloods or other gang - find him wearing a wig and disguise and carrying an illegally purchased gun. As long as he hasn't been convicted of a felony yet, he'll plea bargain out in an hour because he hasn't actually killed somone... yet.
As long as you can pass the background check one time, you can become an arms dealer without owning a store or anything. You have less than a 1% chance of ever being investigated. Then you can sell pistols, sniper rifles, assault rifles, silencers (ecause you know, that's so necessary for defense) and whatever. Do these people sell guns illegally? Duh.
So it's not a matter of laws. It's a matter of enforcement.
Extreme Liberals have a solution to America's Gun Violence Problem: They want to ban all guns but they are fairly rare.
Moderate LibDems, Moderates and Indies Liberals have a solution to America's Gun Violence Problem: They think gun ownershio is fine but carrying machine guns into the kindergarten or better yet, the bar where you go get drunk, is just plain foolish. I agree. I own a gun but don't take it to the movies or anywhere in the city. It's at home.
Conservatives Liberals have a solution to America's Gun Violence Problem: More guns. I'm not kidding. Oh and less laws. If our laws and their enforcement is too weak now, the solution is to make even less of them. You'll hear cute little chants they've been taught like "If guns are illegal only criminals wil have guns." Well duh. And if child porn is illegal, only criminals will have child porn. So should we make it legal? The anti-logic of this is almost amusing. Oh well. They really do buy it.
My favorite one is when they compare gun ownership to owning a car. Unreal.

Being that the theater was a gun free zone didn't stop the shooter now did it?

thank you for verifying my point about the logic Conservative use, when it comes to guns. Obviously we have a gun violence problem in America. You solution is to add more guns, less laws restricting them and less enforcement.
Just like the way to solve a fire problem is to add more fire and gasoline!
BTW, I've made it clear I don't want to take away people's guns - including my own. But I do think some common sense laws and the ability to enforce them, might be an even better idea, than making sure every citizen is armed to the teeth, everywhere they go. Go figure.

Hell yes add more guns
You never hear about a mass shooting at a gun range, gun show or police department. Only those places that are gun free zones.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If the gun culture didn't clash head on with the PC culture, this would never have happened.

I just heard an interview with the owner of the gun range where Holmes practiced. The range owner saw that Holmes was losing his grip, but because no crime had been committed there was nothing he could do about it. We can't allow people to go around accusing others of being insane just because they are "different".

Maybe a pshyco analysis should be required as a test for gun owners once a year in the nation now, just like renewing a drivers license or other updating certifications in which we do hold, and for which has to be updated regulary ?

Maybe we should (as someone said earlier), require a liability insurance policy to be held by the gun owner or gun owners of serious assault weapons now. Hec this alone might would subtract from the amount of peope whom want to own such weapons in the future, especially younger people that are seemingly the most dangerous these days. Price it all out of reach from the young people through certification requirements and liability policies in which changes the game on this big time, especially if wanting to own and operate an assault weapon (AR-15's) & gear for example within this united states as a citizen. Wasn't it not long ago, that the police were becoming outgunned and out matched in weaponry in this country, until measures were brought to again put the police back on top of these situations ? Isn't there a major problem down in Mexico, where the drug lords are stronger than the military and the government in that nation now ? I say we vote in a government that is not undermining this nation and it's security as we have seen, and then slowly work our way back off of the plank in which the government has now walked us all out on. I am for freedom in everything possible as well in this nation, just as long as certain things are not being exploited by the bad guy's under those very freedoms in which they are using to kill us with, and all because our government see's us as the enemy instead of the bad guy's anymore, especially when empowering people in this nation by way of our government in which they are doing this and have been doing this for quite sometime now, and in which has created what we see now going in this nation to date.

You want to deny people rights on the basis of arbitrary testing standards?

 

[boedicca]

I bet he's against Voter ID, too.

 

[Peach]

I'm sorry, but I'm missing the point you are trying to make here.

In Iraq, militia types defeated US gov't forces with, among other things, theiir fully auto small arms - they were determined guerilla that stood even when smart bomb were dropped on their asses.
Get it now?

Really? I thought we "shock and awed" them back to the stone age. Remember "Mission Accomplished"? Isn't the final death count way in our advantage? 4977 vs 100000 to 650000? They won? Saddam and the Baath party are still in power? I must have been living in an alternative universe these past 10 years.

Gee, 4977 dead 'coalition' troops means we "won"? You left out the tens of thousands wounded, and counted in the Iraqi people we were sent to liberate.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

ONE MORE TIME Well regulated does not mean today what it meant when the second amendment was first written. It had nothing to do with government regulating it.
Well Regulate meant in the 18th century to be as expected in working order.

Joker Holmes slaughtering people in Colorado, is not a sign of a well regulated militia "in working order".

All the other incidents of crime and murder committed by people with legally held weapons is not a sign of a well regulated militia "in working order".

"The militia", such as it is, is not being well regulated by the current slack gun laws. "The militia", such as it is, is not "in working order".

On the contrary, "the militia" is not in good working order. Guns in the hands of citizens need better laws, laws which are enforceable.

So "the militia", such as it is, needs better regulating by better laws and it needs to be put into better "working order" so as to keep the people safe.

If you think things are working well buddy then tell that to the families and loved ones of the victims of the Colorado Batman premiere shooting because they won't agree.

And one more thing, why would the founders put control of the militia in the hands of the government if the second amendment was supposed to prevent tyranny of the government?

The US Constitution is all about government of the people, by the people, for the people, right?

So ideally, "the government" would be "the people". The danger, what other countries have, is government by the state, by the monarch, by the elite, and the people can go to hell. That's what the constitution is designed to defend against.

The constitution and the law is something we can all read. So we all can have a view as citizens if we think the state is breaking the constitution or the law.

So you are right. The constitution is asking you to have a view as to whether the militia is well regulated or whether innocent people are getting shot up. You decide buddy.

Your post is not the sign of a mind in working order.

If we start interpreting the constitution based on whether or not we like the results we will end up with a government that is free to stop people from saying things that are rude, and one that decides whether people can vote based on who wins the election. That is not what you want.

 

[Borillar]

In Iraq, militia types defeated US gov't forces with, among other things, theiir fully auto small arms - they were determined guerilla that stood even when smart bomb were dropped on their asses.
Get it now?

Really? I thought we "shock and awed" them back to the stone age. Remember "Mission Accomplished"? Isn't the final death count way in our advantage? 4977 vs 100000 to 650000? They won? Saddam and the Baath party are still in power? I must have been living in an alternative universe these past 10 years.

Gee, 4977 dead 'coalition' troops means we "won"? You left out the tens of thousands wounded, and counted in the Iraqi people we were sent to liberate.

Bombs don't discriminate between insurgents and civilians. We "liberated" them right out of the ranks of the living. We "won" the Iraq war. They sure as hell didn't.

 

[freedombecki]

I agree, I didn't write about guns being taken away however, others have.

You said the man who committed this atrocity was "one of their kind." That is not the case. I read quotes of the other prisoners. They said he was talking out of his head about being in a great movie and a few other misguided things one does not see on this political board or others, for the most part. Our most extreme poster here on either side is likely not a mass murderer of innocent human beings, imho.

I just glanced at the American National Debt clock. We are in the hole close to 15 trillion, 902 billion dollars, and in less than a week, we will pass 16 trillion dollars. Pardon me if some of us seem to you as "extremists," but this national debt and no end in sight has us feeling the extremes that brought this nation to such collassal debt must be dealt with in a way almost as extreme as the extreme way it will have been put at 16 trillion. That "extremity" is to simply stop passing extreme tax-raising, job-snuffling bills and put some sanity back into measures that will provide the best care for the most. Many of us feel that will be through private sector health care, and many do not. We will be coming together soon to decide which way we will proceed from here.

If power is transferred on account of the November election, no senior is going to have his or her health care removed, nor will anyone who served and was wounded be turned away. Doctors will still be able to earn good money for their 80+ hour a week jobs and deliver good care to clients, and privacy of information will be assured to people who are ill.

Nothing bad is going to happen, jobs are going to be restored.

Romney is hungry to get started turning the job markets around so people do not have to live on the dole but will be rewarded well with good jobs.

He's also got a plan -- a real plan -- to get American jobs back to these shores. He knows how to do it, and he is poised and ready to bring home that bacon in manufacturing jobs to our country once more.

If we give him a Senate and House to work with, that will be accomplished in less than 4 years.

Obama still hasn't passed a budget. You will not see that particular behavior from Romney, because he has an agenda to get people in the Senate and House working together toward the goal of a budget that will ensure the most people who lost them will get their jobs back.

Turn Romney loose! America will prosper if we do. Of that I am certain.

Yeah, right...the dems and the reps, the two most corrupt parties in the history of our nation who have worked together to bring us the mess in our economy today and you think voting for one of the same is gonna fix it????

Yes I do.