Atheists are hoping aliens from outer space will contact us...

[RWS]

 

[Boss]

Man, I hope you feel better getting all that nastiness out of your system.

It was meant exactly as you think it means. You are a person who wants to dominate every conversation, and put people down if they disagree.

To the contrary, I actually enjoy a healthy debate with someone who disagrees with me and can formulate a coherent argument to support their views. Unfortunately, that's not you. You keep making idiotic arguments to support an ignorant viewpoint. When someone disagrees, you want to attack them personally, make them feel small or you ignore their points and continue parroting nonsense.

So yeah, you should not be representing humanity when you visit other societies in need for our help. If they put a muzzle on you, and you're just handing out money, then it's ok.

Well I'm glad I have your permission to help others. Where I go, I don't hand out money. I feed children who are lucky to get one hot meal a day and live in a landfill. Even though I'm not religious, I spend a lot of time praying with them because they are religious. The mission group I work with are also religious.

You know what we did the last time I was there? We had a feet washing. I spent about 6 hrs on my knees washing dirty feet. This is purely a Christian thing, it's what Jesus did. I can't describe to you the feeling you get in humbling yourself that way. It was certainly a spiritually healthy experience for me and something I'll never forget.

Thing is, it doesn't work with me. Or others here.

We're not going to back down because you pull your bullying tactics, once you're in a corner. You're not the boss.

You know how I can tell I am winning? When the person I'm arguing with has to create a fake crowd that opposes me. That's really pathetic and sad. You speak for yourself, there's no one standing in your corner here.

Again, you're just trying to deceive again by changing the subject to how the US divides groups by race. We all know that's wrong. But you seem to think that the Jewish people are their own race, and stated it as such. And then changed your tune, to make it seem like you said something else.

What do you really think?

I didn't change anything. Jewish people are their own race. They have their own distinct genetic markers.

I'm not deceiving anyone. I could easily come here and be a fake Christian... or Jew. I honestly profess that I'm non-religious but spiritual. I never claimed the US divides people by race. We're all Americans with the same rights. What I keep seeing a pattern of in your posts is deception. Outright lies and distortions of what I've said, over and over again.

This is psychological. You feel the need to turn me into the thing you hate about yourself. By doing that it makes you feel better. The problem is, your demons are still there, you haven't faced them. I doubt you're going to anytime soon.

 

[RWS]

Get the fuck out, you take every thread, change the topic, and make it into your own. Because you want to dominate the conversation, and put everyone else down. That's what I learned from reading your other threads that didn't involve me. So I realize it's something you just do because it's part of your nature.

Yet you won't make your own thread, because you don't want people attacking you and your OP. You just like to sit outside and snipe and hen-peck away by picking apart posts that everyone else makes. Never taking responsibility or ownership. Trying to make everyone else look stupid, and making yourself look smart. Changing your story mid-stream when the tide turns against you. So the people only see your most current vomit of a post, and forget your other shit.

There are a lot of people here who disagree with you, who you have bullied into silence. I have seen that from your other threads. But you're not gonna bully me into silence, and you don't seem to understand that concept. I don't need or want anyone to back me up, but their posts are there, and you shut them down. You bullied them into silence. That will not work with me.

You said you want to make me your little bitch.

I do not want sexual relations with you. Understand that. But yet, you want to dominate me.

You want to put me down, like I'm some stupid mofo, and you're the superior boss, and do some butt things that you mentioned.

And you're upset that I said you should stay away from children??

Are you serious?

 

[RWS]

Anyway, back to the topic that the blowhard has been trying to change nonstop...

I'm going to post this again, here's a story about UFO's by Carlin:

 

[Boss]

Get the fuck out, you take every thread, change the topic, and make it into your own. Because you want to dominate the conversation, and put everyone else down. That's what I learned from reading your other threads that didn't involve me. So I realize it's something you just do because it's part of your nature.

Yet you won't make your own thread, because you don't want people attacking you and your OP. You just like to sit outside and snipe and hen-peck away by picking apart posts that everyone else makes. Never taking responsibility or ownership. Trying to make everyone else look stupid, and making yourself look smart. Changing your story mid-stream when the tide turns against you. So the people only see your most current vomit of a post, and forget your other shit.

There are a lot of people here who disagree with you, who you have bullied into silence. I have seen that from your other threads. But you're not gonna bully me into silence, and you don't seem to understand that concept. I don't need or want anyone to back me up, but their posts are there, and you shut them down. You bullied them into silence. That will not work with me.

You said you want to make me your little bitch.

I do not want sexual relations with you. Understand that. But yet, you want to dominate me.

You want to put me down, like I'm some stupid mofo, and you're the superior boss, and do some butt things that you mentioned.

And you're upset that I said you should stay away from children??

Are you serious?

I made two threads this past week. One was about Fusion GPS, Awan Brothers and DNC Collusion... the other was about Carbon dioxide not being a pollutant. I usually make a couple of threads per week. Sometimes they take off and have lots of replies and sometimes they fizzle out. I don't "bully" anybody, I simply make my points. Just like I've done in this thread... which, incidentally, isn't YOUR thread. You are the one using bullying tactics here, trying to make things personal... borderline calling me a pedophile... accusing me of sexual innuendos... completely abandoning the topic to attack my posting style and criticize me in every way possible. That's what bullies and trolls do best.

I don't put you down unless I think you deserve it. When you say stupid shit, I'm going to tell you... like "religion and ethics is an oxymoron" ...or "the OT religions" ....I mean, you sound like a fucking retard. I personally believe it's better to let you know that you sound like a retard than to ignore it and let you continue being one. I would rather you buck up and start making more coherent arguments. Flesh out your thoughts a little more... broaden those horizons. Instead, you want to turn into a little whiney bitch and play the victim. That's cool but expect me to treat you as such.

As for the posters here, most of the people I converse with regularly can tell you that I am respectful when I'm respected but I can be a real smart ass when confronted with smart assery. I'm like a mirror, you get what you dish out. Debate the topic and address my points honestly and you'll get the same in return, it's not that hard. If you want to be a little obnoxious asswipe and engage a pissing flame war, don't blame me when I singe those pubes for ya... that's gonna happen.

Now I don't understand what any of this has to do with atheists and outer space. We seem to be way out of the thread topic with this little diatribe and I'm not really comfortable with your continued insinuations about me and children. So if you cannot get back on topic and drop these kind of remarks, I am going to start reporting your posts and let the mods sort it out. I'm not going to warn you again and I'm not going to continue responding to your hurt feelings.

 

[Boss]

Anyway, back to the topic that the blowhard has been trying to change nonstop...

I'm going to post this again, here's a story about UFO's by Carlin:

Love George Carlin, he was a great comedian, did lots of funny shit.

He's not a scientist or theologian.

 

[indiajo]

I can think about it, but I'm not overly impressed with large numbers.

Yolu should, Because they are really large. Huge. Not comprehensible.

What does impress me is that in this very large universe, not one alien civilization, NOT ONE, has contacted our planet or left any evidence here that they ever came to visit.

What that tells me is that the most probable conclusion is that there are NO alien civilizations out there, because if there were only one in a trillion chance of there being an alien civilization around a star, we would have gobs of visitors by now.

Well, that's a consequence of the large numbers above, which don't impress you.
1. Distance. Laws of physics apply to them, too. So nobody out there will ever stop by for a short visit. Never. The next star, Alpha Centauri, is about 4,5 light years away from us. So even if it had a planet, which is not the case, and it would have a civilisation that is able to travel interstellar space, they would need possibly decades to come here,
Not considered that somebody traveling 1/10 the speed of light has to push the breaks in time.

2. Time. Civilizations are not created, they evolve. Like ours. The question is, when. Here it was 4,5 billion years after the earth had formed. In a universe that is around 13 billion years old. And we are able to send signals out there since around 100 years? So another civilisation further away than 100 lightyears would not know that here some stupid chimps do not believe they exist.
If it would exist now. Possibly it could already gone extinct, or just learning to make fire.

3. Be happy that nobody stops by.
Civilisations able to do that would be in an intelligence comparison to us like we are to ants.
The would be able to bend spacetime. Maybe that would not impress you. It would impress me, for sure.

 

[Boss]

Before we get to the question of life elsewhere, we have to objectively take a step back and try to figure out how life originated here. As much as we believe we know about the universe, we still cannot answer that basic fundamental question of origin. How did life begin? There have been many theories over the ages but none have ever been proven. Abiogenesis remains a theory. It contradicts biogenesis (life comes from life).

In the 21st century we know lots of things. We have very smart scientists working on this question. We know what the building blocks are for life to exist but we cannot determine how it started. No one has ever combined inorganic materials to create life. State of the art labs and technology at our fingertips. The ability to simulate endless condition variables. Testing relentlessly, every possibility we can imagine.... nothing has been produced.

We have to, at some point, realize that origination of life itself is clearly not easy, casual, random.. whatever word you want to use. It's not something that just happens. If it were, we would have surely stumbled upon HOW by now. This question of origin remains a mystery to us in spite of all our theories and speculations.

Of course, our universe is full of the materials which life is created from. Still, we don't see life in abundance everywhere, even though the materials are there. Some will say, well you have to maintain certain conditions for life to exist and this is true, however, we still don't know how living things originate. Even with the right conditions, indeed, even with state of the art laboratories and critically controlled environments to play with and years upon years of testing and experimenting. Still... nothing. For all intents and purposes, it appears that life comes from life... and that's it. So how does it start?

Until that question is answered, it's kind of pointless to speculate life exists elsewhere in the universe.

 

[MaryL]

...and tell us there's no God.

That is why scientists like Carl Sagan so eagerly tell us there MUST be life on other planets, but it's a wish, there is no science to back up his claims.

So far, after decades of listening with radio telescopes, the skies have been totally silent.

Either aliens don't exist at all anywhere in the universe, or they are so far away their transmissions will never reach us.

And in either case, we will never have aliens visit us.

We are probably alone.

What does one have to do with the other? What if we just find life forms like moss, shrimps or early sentient beings? Perhaps we will tell them there is a god, and give them a copy of "The Watchtower".

 

[RWS]

Get the fuck out, you take every thread, change the topic, and make it into your own. Because you want to dominate the conversation, and put everyone else down. That's what I learned from reading your other threads that didn't involve me. So I realize it's something you just do because it's part of your nature.

Yet you won't make your own thread, because you don't want people attacking you and your OP. You just like to sit outside and snipe and hen-peck away by picking apart posts that everyone else makes. Never taking responsibility or ownership. Trying to make everyone else look stupid, and making yourself look smart. Changing your story mid-stream when the tide turns against you. So the people only see your most current vomit of a post, and forget your other shit.

There are a lot of people here who disagree with you, who you have bullied into silence. I have seen that from your other threads. But you're not gonna bully me into silence, and you don't seem to understand that concept. I don't need or want anyone to back me up, but their posts are there, and you shut them down. You bullied them into silence. That will not work with me.

You said you want to make me your little bitch.

I do not want sexual relations with you. Understand that. But yet, you want to dominate me.

You want to put me down, like I'm some stupid mofo, and you're the superior boss, and do some butt things that you mentioned.

And you're upset that I said you should stay away from children??

Are you serious?

I made two threads this past week. One was about Fusion GPS, Awan Brothers and DNC Collusion... the other was about Carbon dioxide not being a pollutant. I usually make a couple of threads per week. Sometimes they take off and have lots of replies and sometimes they fizzle out. I don't "bully" anybody, I simply make my points. Just like I've done in this thread... which, incidentally, isn't YOUR thread. You are the one using bullying tactics here, trying to make things personal... borderline calling me a pedophile... accusing me of sexual innuendos... completely abandoning the topic to attack my posting style and criticize me in every way possible. That's what bullies and trolls do best.

I don't put you down unless I think you deserve it. When you say stupid shit, I'm going to tell you... like "religion and ethics is an oxymoron" ...or "the OT religions" ....I mean, you sound like a fucking retard. I personally believe it's better to let you know that you sound like a retard than to ignore it and let you continue being one. I would rather you buck up and start making more coherent arguments. Flesh out your thoughts a little more... broaden those horizons. Instead, you want to turn into a little whiney bitch and play the victim. That's cool but expect me to treat you as such.

As for the posters here, most of the people I converse with regularly can tell you that I am respectful when I'm respected but I can be a real smart ass when confronted with smart assery. I'm like a mirror, you get what you dish out. Debate the topic and address my points honestly and you'll get the same in return, it's not that hard. If you want to be a little obnoxious asswipe and engage a pissing flame war, don't blame me when I singe those pubes for ya... that's gonna happen.

Now I don't understand what any of this has to do with atheists and outer space. We seem to be way out of the thread topic with this little diatribe and I'm not really comfortable with your continued insinuations about me and children. So if you cannot get back on topic and drop these kind of remarks, I am going to start reporting your posts and let the mods sort it out. I'm not going to warn you again and I'm not going to continue responding to your hurt feelings.

So let me get this straight.

You said you want to make me "your little bitch."

You called me a "retard"

All on this thread, that you have been changing the subject of, from the beginning.

I've been trying to get you back on track to the thread, and now you're saying you "don't understand what any of this has to do" with the OP?

Really?

I have been saying that from the beginning. But you kept going on with your hubris.

Yes, you should not be around people that rely on you for survival.

Because you do it for giggles and woodies. If you even do it.

Based on what I know of you here on this board, you should not be representing humanity and "goodness" to people who rely on you. Your way of rolling is domination and deception.

Give your money to Sally Struthers and her foundation. That's the best way you can help.


So... back to the OP...

 

[RWS]

Before we get to the question of life elsewhere, we have to objectively take a step back and try to figure out how life originated here. As much as we believe we know about the universe, we still cannot answer that basic fundamental question of origin. How did life begin? There have been many theories over the ages but none have ever been proven. Abiogenesis remains a theory. It contradicts biogenesis (life comes from life).

In the 21st century we know lots of things. We have very smart scientists working on this question. We know what the building blocks are for life to exist but we cannot determine how it started. No one has ever combined inorganic materials to create life. State of the art labs and technology at our fingertips. The ability to simulate endless condition variables. Testing relentlessly, every possibility we can imagine.... nothing has been produced.

We have to, at some point, realize that origination of life itself is clearly not easy, casual, random.. whatever word you want to use. It's not something that just happens. If it were, we would have surely stumbled upon HOW by now. This question of origin remains a mystery to us in spite of all our theories and speculations.

Of course, our universe is full of the materials which life is created from. Still, we don't see life in abundance everywhere, even though the materials are there. Some will say, well you have to maintain certain conditions for life to exist and this is true, however, we still don't know how living things originate. Even with the right conditions, indeed, even with state of the art laboratories and critically controlled environments to play with and years upon years of testing and experimenting. Still... nothing. For all intents and purposes, it appears that life comes from life... and that's it. So how does it start?

Until that question is answered, it's kind of pointless to speculate life exists elsewhere in the universe.

It happened here, and given the right environment, it can happen elsewhere. There are few scientists who would disagree with that.

Just because we haven't been able to create a self-replicating molecule in a lab environment, does not mean it was a "God" event on our planet. We are not that technologically advanced yet, that we can just say that it's impossible to create "life" in a test tube, using basic elements.

We can create the primordial soup where we prove amino acids form, and have a few different ideas about how the containment wall forms, including a new one recently.

The problem is we have been trying this for about 30 years. And hoping for proof in 30 years, for something that took nature half a billion years, is not proof that it took an imaginary "God" to do it.

Once we find proof of organisms on a different planet or moon, that should dismiss all ideas of "God".

Because "He" failed to flourish those life forms on those other planets/moons, means that "He" is not omnipotent, and life is actually a matter of math and science and chaos.

 

[Boss]

It happened here, and given the right environment, it can happen elsewhere. There are few scientists who would disagree with that.

I'm not disagreeing with that. But that wasn't the question. HOW did it happen? The answer: We don't know!

You say "given the right environment" but you need to understand how incredibly unique our environment probably is. First we have the water in mostly liquid form, this rules out at least 90% or more of the planets out there. They are either too close to their sun, too far away or they don't have water in abundance. So right off the bat, we're down to (optimistically) one in ten probability and we've just started.

Next one is very tricky. Something huge collided with Earth early on and gave us two two important things. A distinctly wobbly rotation and a moon. Our moon is just the right size and distance in geosynchronous orbit to cause tides in our vast oceans. Without those tides the oceans would be stagnant bodies of motionless water incapable of supporting life. The wobbly rotation gives us seasons and while it may not be a prerequisite for life, it certainly appears to be fundamental to millions of life forms. It also plays a role in oceanic convection which is another fundamental to oceanic life.

Finally, another unique attribute is our molten nickel and iron core. How did that happen? Well, apparently, some event we are not certain of, actually "cooked" our early planet. The heat was so intense it melted the entire planet and the heavier elements became our core as lighter ones became our mantle and crust. Why is this important? Because it gives us our magnetic poles and provides an electromagnetic shield around our planet to enable our atmosphere to form.

This "cooking" event is mysterious because it happened after materials forming the planet had coalesced and the heat was more intense than the sun is capable of producing. Whatever it was, it doesn't appear it happened to Mars.

So all of these things and dozens more that I didn't mention, all go into creating "the right environment" as you said. The way I see it, we're down to "near impossible" for another planet out there to have the same exact ecosystem as our own. That's not to say life doesn't exist elsewhere but it's very likely not life as we know it here on Earth.

Just because we haven't been able to create a self-replicating molecule in a lab environment, does not mean it was a "God" event on our planet. We are not that technologically advanced yet, that we can just say that it's impossible to create "life" in a test tube, using basic elements.

We can create the primordial soup where we prove amino acids form, and have a few different ideas about how the containment wall forms, including a new one recently.

We're pretty technologically advanced. We can examine subatomic particles. So far, it IS impossible to create life from inorganic materials. It has NEVER been done. Not saying "God did it" but if we cannot answer the question it remains a viable possibility. Theories are great but if a theory can't produce predicted results it is a failed theory and worthless.

The problem is we have been trying this for about 30 years. And hoping for proof in 30 years, for something that took nature half a billion years, is not proof that it took an imaginary "God" to do it.

Once we find proof of organisms on a different planet or moon, that should dismiss all ideas of "God".

Because "He" failed to flourish those life forms on those other planets/moons, means that "He" is not omnipotent, and life is actually a matter of math and science and chaos.

I don't see how finding life on other planets/moons dismisses God. To me, even finding a viable physical answer for origin of life doesn't dismiss God, it just explains how God did it. You're attempting to reason God's purpose but you're not God. It's kind of like the supposition that "if God exists, why do babies die of cancer?" This attempts to reason that living in a physical state of existence is the preferable form of existence. This is something we cannot possibly know.

 

[Hyddan92]

We may or may not be alone but even if we are not, it doesn't mean there is no God. God is a creator, so why would he feel restricted to just one tiny planet in our galaxy? He could have all kinds of other worlds with different kinds of life/creatures/people.

But it might cause a crisis in Christianity, especially Catholicism.

Catholicism is a very humanocentric religion. We believe that God sent his only Son to be Man, and it is through the Son of God's death, as a man, that we are saved.

We consume the Body and Blood of Christ during the Mass, and the reason that works is because we share humanity with Christ.

The introduction of an alien life form that was intelligent but not human might throw the entire equation out of whack for Catholics.

I guess it could have an effect on specific religious beliefs but the fact that they exist would prompt the obvious question of how they got there. I would think most people of faith would conclude that God created them too.

Scientists create new life form from scratch

Sooner or later...

 

[Hyddan92]

Obviously we can't know for sure if life on other worlds exist or not until we have found proof of their existence.

But if the universe for all intense and purposes are endless and the number of worlds are endless then that would mean that the amount of planets more or less exactly like our own with developed sentient life are also endless.

In fact that would mean that worlds exactly identical to our own down to the last atom would be endless as well not matter the probabilities of that occurring.

 

[Boss]

Obviously we can't know for sure if life on other worlds exist or not until we have found proof of their existence.

But if the universe for all intense and purposes are endless and the number of worlds are endless then that would mean that the amount of planets more or less exactly like our own with developed sentient life are also endless.

In fact that would mean that worlds exactly identical to our own down to the last atom would be endless as well not matter the probabilities of that occurring.

But we are fairly certain the universe cannot be "endless." It might be big, it might be vast, but that doesn't mean endless.

To believe in "endless" is to believe in "infinity" and to believe in "infinity" is to believe in "eternal" which is a purely "spiritual" concept, no different in distinction than belief in God.

I approach the idea of "life" from a much different perspective than merely calculating basic odds of probability determined by a vast number of possibilities. I agree that it would seem rational to believe, if all the elements of life are within our universe, the probability for other life forms in our universe is high. But let's consider the following analogy...

Let's say you walk into a house and find on the table, a cake. You look around and find the various ingredients to make a cake in the kitchen. Does this mean another cake exists in the house? The ingredients are certainly there, so this is a possibility. However, until you can explain how the cake on the table originated, it's not possible to conclude another cake must exist. Even if the ingredients are in abundance. Clearly, the only way to prove another cake exists is to find one.

Furthermore, the more we objectively analyze this cake on the table, the more we realize how specific variables and sets of conditions had to happen in precise order for the cake to exist. It didn't simply materialize because the ingredients were there. We can certainly speculate and ponder the possibility of the cake spontaneously creating itself but rational thought should at least entertain the idea the cake was the product of a creator. We do not need to identify that creator to entertain the idea.

 

[Hyddan92]

Obviously we can't know for sure if life on other worlds exist or not until we have found proof of their existence.

But if the universe for all intense and purposes are endless and the number of worlds are endless then that would mean that the amount of planets more or less exactly like our own with developed sentient life are also endless.

In fact that would mean that worlds exactly identical to our own down to the last atom would be endless as well not matter the probabilities of that occurring.

But we are fairly certain the universe cannot be "endless." It might be big, it might be vast, but that doesn't mean endless.

To believe in "endless" is to believe in "infinity" and to believe in "infinity" is to believe in "eternal" which is a purely "spiritual" concept, no different in distinction than belief in God.

I approach the idea of "life" from a much different perspective than merely calculating basic odds of probability determined by a vast number of possibilities. I agree that it would seem rational to believe, if all the elements of life are within our universe, the probability for other life forms in our universe is high. But let's consider the following analogy...

Let's say you walk into a house and find on the table, a cake. You look around and find the various ingredients to make a cake in the kitchen. Does this mean another cake exists in the house? The ingredients are certainly there, so this is a possibility. However, until you can explain how the cake on the table originated, it's not possible to conclude another cake must exist. Even if the ingredients are in abundance. Clearly, the only way to prove another cake exists is to find one.

Furthermore, the more we objectively analyze this cake on the table, the more we realize how specific variables and sets of conditions had to happen in precise order for the cake to exist. It didn't simply materialize because the ingredients were there. We can certainly speculate and ponder the possibility of the cake spontaneously creating itself but rational thought should at least entertain the idea the cake was the product of a creator. We do not need to identify that creator to entertain the idea.

Sure, the universe might not be endless, but as far as we know it has no border, we cannot see the end, we can not notice it, so for us it might as well be endless. In the same manner as ancient men looked over the ocean and thought of it as endless we look out into Space. Now we know that the oceans were not endless, but the people back then didn't know that, they couldn't know that just as we now can't know that the Universe is not endless. And until we find out, for all intents and purposes of anything we can understand it is endless and everything in it is infinite. We simply can't consider anything else. Without information we are simply guessing.

As for your analogy with the cake I'm sure if I would search more houses eventually I would find another cake, not the same, not identical but definitely a cake, and I would not need to understand how the first one was created to know that there were at least two in existence. But the same logic stands, I can't know if there is another cake anywhere, until I have found it. As for your talk of a creator; it's not simply that the planets spontaneously came into existence, there are forces in Space, Gravity, all matter has mass and attracts other mass to it, this causes matter to bind together, pressure to build up, temperature to shift. During the right circumstances, that cake could simply put itself together.

 

[Boss]

Sure, the universe might not be endless, but as far as we know it has no border, we cannot see the end, we can not notice it, so for us it might as well be endless. In the same manner as ancient men looked over the ocean and thought of it as endless we look out into Space. Now we know that the oceans were not endless, but the people back then didn't know that, they couldn't know that just as we now can't know that the Universe is not endless. And until we find out, for all intents and purposes of anything we can understand it is endless and everything in it is infinite. We simply can't consider anything else. Without information we are simply guessing.

As for your analogy with the cake I'm sure if I would search more houses eventually I would find another cake, not the same, not identical but definitely a cake, and I would not need to understand how the first one was created to know that there were at least two in existence. But the same logic stands, I can't know if there is another cake anywhere, until I have found it. As for your talk of a creator; it's not simply that the planets spontaneously came into existence, there are forces in Space, Gravity, all matter has mass and attracts other mass to it, this causes matter to bind together, pressure to build up, temperature to shift. During the right circumstances, that cake could simply put itself together.

It's interesting that you cite principles of physics as if these are simply rules that exist because they exist. The problem is, when we objectively evaluate physics, none of the parameters of physics HAS to exist. There are at least 40 cosmological constants which have to be precise in order for even a physical universe to exist and there is nothing in physics to indicate universes must contain these constants. Since physics can't explain this, we entertain the theory of multiple universes. This is the notion that an endless number of universes exist and ours just happens to be one with the right cosmological constants. Problem is, that's not really valid science because we can never evaluate or test the hypothesis. Therefore, it becomes something we can basically categorize in the same realm as belief in God.

I'm sure if I would search more houses eventually I would find another cake, not the same, not identical but definitely a cake, and I would not need to understand how the first one was created to know that there were at least two in existence.

Really? Based on what exactly? Let me help you... it's called FAITH.

The ONLY way you can know for certain another cake exists is to discover another cake. If not, you can only speculate one MIGHT exist. IF you could explain how a cake spontaneously created itself, that would certainly support the idea that another cake does likely exist somewhere. However, I am using the cake in the analogy because we already know that cakes cannot spontaneously create themselves. Is it possible? Yes, everything is possible. It's just not probable. In fact, the more we observe and examine it, the more improbable we find it to be that cakes can spontaneously create themselves. Much more likely is the probability the cake had some creative force. Much the same is true with life.

It has always fascinated me about science, that every time science believes it is about to uncover the hidden secrets to origin, it inevitably uncovers more evidence of a Creator. It has happened over and over again, much to the chagrin of atheist scientists.

they couldn't know that just as we now can't know that the Universe is not endless.

Except we DO know the universe is not endless... if we believe in physics.

Now... the universe is HUGE. Make no mistake. There are billions and billions of galaxies. Our solar system is just a minor blip in one small galaxy. The next closest galaxy to us is thousands of light years away. Just over 100 years ago, we believed our galaxy was ALL the universe. So we are still very naive in terms of what we know about our universe.

All that said, what we do know, because of physics, is that the universe is not infinite. This was settled by physicists in Copenhagen in the early 1900s. Early skeptics of the idea that our universe is not infinite or eternal are responsible for creating the term "Big Bang" which was actually a ridicule of the idea that the universe had a beginning.

 

[Vastator]

The alien thing is a religious issue for the atheists. They think if we are contacted by aliens, the entire Christian religion will have a faith crisis and collapse in ruin. This is the reason atheists run around insisting that aliens are real, when they have absolutely no proof to back up these claims.

Nonsense. Its doing that all by itself, without alien intervention. Unless rational thought is alien to you... Then yes. Aliens are definitely destroying the zombie cult.

 

[mamooth]

The problem is, when we objectively evaluate physics, none of the parameters of physics HAS to exist.

No. That's totally wrong. We don't know that at all. And we know that in some cases, it's flat out not true.

Hence, the "designed universe" argument flops.

 

[Boss]

The problem is, when we objectively evaluate physics, none of the parameters of physics HAS to exist.

No. That's totally wrong. We don't know that at all. And we know that in some cases, it's flat out not true.

Hence, the "designed universe" argument flops.

We do know that. It's not totally wrong or even partially wrong, it's the absolute truth.

I would LOVE to see your evidence that universes MUST adhere to any given principle, law, variable, constant or parameter in physics. What your argument is reduced to is "it just so happens to be that way, therefore, it has to be that way!" Fact is, there is absolutely nothing written in physics which says it has to be that way.

The ONLY way an argument flops is when you have disproved the argument. You've failed at that.