Atheists are hoping aliens from outer space will contact us...

[Boss]

Really? Based on what exactly? Let me help you... it's called FAITH.

No it's not it's called "I found evidence of a second cake so now I know there's at least two in existence.

Really? You've found evidence of life elsewhere? This is news to me.

No... You've found ingredients to make another cake and you have faith that this means another cake exists somewhere.

So even if there are gods out there creating planets for fun as you seem to believe I'ts completely unprovable to us, so I think I can discard the silly idea without much remorse.

Well, I don't believe Gods are creating planets for fun. That is you, mocking a belief in a spiritual Creator. But you are correct, it's not provable... it's also not disprovable. Going back to the cake analogy, finding another cake neither proves or disproves a creator. And yes, you can indeed discard the idea as silly... or you can have faith.

From a philosophical standpoint, based on knowledge we have, things which happen have a cause. Nothing ever happens without some cause. Ergo; the universe happened, therefore, there must be a cause.

"It has always fascinated me about science, that every time science believes it is about to uncover the hidden secrets to origin, it inevitably uncovers more evidence of a Creator. It has happened over and over again, much to the chagrin of atheist scientists."

Really? Like what? When has hard evidence of a creator ever been uncovered?

I never said hard evidence of a Creator has been uncovered.

Okay, so the first thing that comes to mind as an example is DNA. When Darwin was postulating his theories on origin, a cell was understood to be no more complex than a ping pong ball. Darwin theorized, perhaps living things have evolved from one common ancestor through a series of natural selection over millions of years. But DNA disproves this. Each living thing has it's own unique DNA and genome. While there is still evidence to support microevolution, it's virtually impossible everything evolved from common DNA.

DNA requires a combination of specific amino acids and proteins which are uniquely suited to the DNA. It sort of becomes a "chicken or egg" dilemma. We're nowhere near figuring it out but the discovery of DNA turned everything we previously thought on it's ear.

Other examples: Higgs Boson, the God Particle, completion of the Standard Model... we assumed once we discovered this it would finally solve the mystery of origin but it only opened a whole new series of unanswered questions. Quantum Mechanics... what Einstein called "spooky action at a distance." Time and time again, we venture to pull back the curtain of discovery, only to find more mystery and unanswered questions to ponder.

We actually discovered Dark Matter by accident. Physicists much smarter than us were crunching the numbers and working their formulas to try and determine the total mass of the universe. But the math didn't add up. There is not enough matter to account for the size and gravity of the universe. In fact, physical matter as we know it, only accounts for about 4% of the universe... that's pretty amazing. The other 96% is comprised of Dark Matter and Dark Energy, of which we cannot interact and don't really understand. Think about that... 96% of your universe is made of stuff you can't see, measure. evaluate, test or interact with. If I didn't know better, I'd say that's almost "spiritual."

 

[K9Buck]

Finding life on another planet would be akin to Christopher Columbus discovering life in the "new world". If there is life elsewhere in the universe then, it is all a part of the creator's plan.

 

[Boss]

Ah yeah, the cake is life, the table is a planet. I did missunderstaad that. Well we know that atoms binds together into molecules that binds together into larger macro-molecules which creates stuff like acids, protein DNA etc. which eventually builds up into Cells. Simplified greatly ofc. So the question here is how and why?

We know how, but we can't replicate it yet, so I guess we don't know exaclty how, we know in theory not in practice

Why? Well idk, nobody knows. I don't think that's really somewthing that can be answered.

so I guess we don't know exaclty how, we know in theory not in practice

BINGO!

We don't know. We can know how things work and often we do. That doesn't answer WHY.

And this is where faith comes into play. We can place our faith in many things but it doesn't make our faith any more or less than what it is.

 

[Boss]

Why couldn't stuff come from nothing?

Because it defies physics.

 

[RWS]

So our universe is not perfect. It's perfect enough to last for the amount of time it will last. But that time will end.

time will never end for the matter and energy that makeup the universe even through (the) cycles the basic components remain the same.

perfection is in the eye of the beholder, Sabbath is another word for perfection, deemed a perfect completion on the seventh day when life first began on Earth ... that mechanism for life requires two components the physiology and its narrative or Spirit the latter of which the same as the basic components may last forever for whomever may capture its presence and exist without the physiological component. would then be a god.

I'm just sayin that the idea that our universe has the perfect ratios that boss mentions, to have the particle interactions that we observe, is not perfect. Our universe is expanding faster and faster constantly. What that eventually means, is that molecules will separate into atoms, and atoms will separate to sub-atomic particles, and so on. We'll eventually go back to the cosmic "soup" or energy that created this universe, and start over. It happens constantly.

We do not have the "magic formula" in this universe. Random chance will create a perfectly sustainable universe. But ours, is not one...

 

[K9Buck]

So our universe is not perfect. It's perfect enough to last for the amount of time it will last. But that time will end.

time will never end for the matter and energy that makeup the universe even through (the) cycles the basic components remain the same.

perfection is in the eye of the beholder, Sabbath is another word for perfection, deemed a perfect completion on the seventh day when life first began on Earth ... that mechanism for life requires two components the physiology and its narrative or Spirit the latter of which the same as the basic components may last forever for whomever may capture its presence and exist without the physiological component. would then be a god.

I'm just sayin that the idea that our universe has the perfect ratios that boss mentions, to have the particle interactions that we observe, is not perfect. Our universe is expanding faster and faster constantly. What that eventually means, is that molecules will separate into atoms, and atoms will separate to sub-atomic particles, and so on. We'll eventually go back to the cosmic "soup" or energy that created this universe, and start over. It happens constantly.

We do not have the "magic formula" in this universe. Random chance will create a perfectly sustainable universe. But ours, is not one...

Do we exist?

 

[Boss]

What that eventually means, is that molecules will separate into atoms, and atoms will separate to sub-atomic particles, and so on. We'll eventually go back to the cosmic "soup" or energy that created this universe, and start over. It happens constantly.

I don't think you can support this with actual science. The atoms of molecules are not growing apart. Subatomic particles in atoms are not growing apart. The universe is rapidly expanding and the expansion is accelerating. It's certainly not "going back" to anything. Now, we've known the universe is expanding for about 100 years or so. It wasn't until the mid '60s that we began to discover the acceleration. This is very problematic for the cyclical universe theory.

What we expected physics to show is that the universe is expanding (from the Big Bang) but that friction produces a slowing rate. Eventually, the expansion would reach equilibrium and gravitational forces would result in contraction. According to laws of motion we should've discovered an expanding but slowing universe... we didn't. So this whole entire idea that our universe is cyclical and everlasting has now become obsolete.

I'm just sayin that the idea that our universe has the perfect ratios that boss mentions, to have the particle interactions that we observe, is not perfect.

Our universe has several immutable dimensionless physical constants. Where did those come from? The only viable explanation I've ever heard is Multiverse theory. That there are an endless number of universes and ours just happens to be the one with finely tuned physical constants to make matter and life possible. The only real problem with that theory is, it can never be validated because we can't observe other universes. What we're left with is faith in a theory that can never be proved or disproved.... exactly the same as belief in a Creator.

 

[Boss]

Do we exist?

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."
~Albert Einstein

 

[tecoyah]

Human centric thinking has always limited progress and led to incorrect belief. In the case of "Life" outside our planet it is expanded beyond "Human" centric into carbon and DNA. Who's to say there aren't Silicon squid swimming in the Methane lakes of Titan or Hydrogen blimp bladder thingys floating in the clouds of Jupiter. Hell, just extremophiles or deep sea vent worms on Earth should be enough to make people think twice.

 

[MarkDuffy]

Really? Based on what exactly? Let me help you... it's called FAITH.

No it's not it's called "I found evidence of a second cake so now I know there's at least two in existence.

Really? You've found evidence of life elsewhere? This is news to me.

No... You've found ingredients to make another cake and you have faith that this means another cake exists somewhere.

So even if there are gods out there creating planets for fun as you seem to believe I'ts completely unprovable to us, so I think I can discard the silly idea without much remorse.

Well, I don't believe Gods are creating planets for fun. That is you, mocking a belief in a spiritual Creator. But you are correct, it's not provable... it's also not disprovable. Going back to the cake analogy, finding another cake neither proves or disproves a creator. And yes, you can indeed discard the idea as silly... or you can have faith.

From a philosophical standpoint, based on knowledge we have, things which happen have a cause. Nothing ever happens without some cause. Ergo; the universe happened, therefore, there must be a cause.

"It has always fascinated me about science, that every time science believes it is about to uncover the hidden secrets to origin, it inevitably uncovers more evidence of a Creator. It has happened over and over again, much to the chagrin of atheist scientists."

Really? Like what? When has hard evidence of a creator ever been uncovered?

I never said hard evidence of a Creator has been uncovered.

Okay, so the first thing that comes to mind as an example is DNA. When Darwin was postulating his theories on origin, a cell was understood to be no more complex than a ping pong ball. Darwin theorized, perhaps living things have evolved from one common ancestor through a series of natural selection over millions of years. But DNA disproves this. Each living thing has it's own unique DNA and genome. While there is still evidence to support microevolution, it's virtually impossible everything evolved from common DNA.

DNA requires a combination of specific amino acids and proteins which are uniquely suited to the DNA. It sort of becomes a "chicken or egg" dilemma. We're nowhere near figuring it out but the discovery of DNA turned everything we previously thought on it's ear.

Other examples: Higgs Boson, the God Particle, completion of the Standard Model... we assumed once we discovered this it would finally solve the mystery of origin but it only opened a whole new series of unanswered questions. Quantum Mechanics... what Einstein called "spooky action at a distance." Time and time again, we venture to pull back the curtain of discovery, only to find more mystery and unanswered questions to ponder.

We actually discovered Dark Matter by accident. Physicists much smarter than us were crunching the numbers and working their formulas to try and determine the total mass of the universe. But the math didn't add up. There is not enough matter to account for the size and gravity of the universe. In fact, physical matter as we know it, only accounts for about 4% of the universe... that's pretty amazing. The other 96% is comprised of Dark Matter and Dark Energy, of which we cannot interact and don't really understand. Think about that... 96% of your universe is made of stuff you can't see, measure. evaluate, test or interact with. If I didn't know better, I'd say that's almost "spiritual."

DNA disproves evolution?

OK, that's gotta be the joke of the day.

The discovery of DNA did not upset the apple cart, it proved the apple cart.

 

[Boss]

DNA disproves evolution?

OK, that's gotta be the joke of the day.

The discovery of DNA did not upset the apple cart, it proved the apple cart.

I didn't say DNA disproves evolution.

DNA does give support to micro-evolution.

DNA essentially disproves macro-evolution.

Everything didn't come from common DNA. It's impossible.

Some will inevitably still argue that macro-evolution is just micro-evolution on a bigger scale but this is not true according to what we now know because of DNA. Every DNA has it's own shopping list of specific amino acids and proteins. Other combinations will simply not work. So to argue that this genus could've 'evolved' into that genus, is just not supportable.

 

[MarkDuffy]

DNA disproves evolution?

OK, that's gotta be the joke of the day.

The discovery of DNA did not upset the apple cart, it proved the apple cart.

I didn't say DNA disproves evolution.

DNA does give support to micro-evolution.

DNA essentially disproves macro-evolution.

Everything didn't come from common DNA. It's impossible.

Some will inevitably still argue that macro-evolution is just micro-evolution on a bigger scale but this is not true according to what we now know because of DNA. Every DNA has it's own shopping list of specific amino acids and proteins. Other combinations will simply not work. So to argue that this genus could've 'evolved' into that genus, is just not supportable.

What ARE you saying?

For evolution to be true, all life must have an information molecule that is different from DNA?

That is crazy

 

[Boss]

What ARE you saying?

For evolution to be true, all life must have an information molecule that is different from DNA?

That is crazy

Okay, it's more complicated than simply saying "evolution is true" or "evolution is not true."

I have said that MICRO-evolution (evoultion within a genus taxon) is true. We have substantial evidence for this and DNA even lends support to this theory. It's how we have black bears, polar bears and grizzly bears.

What is not supported with any finding is MACRO-evolution. That is the concept that every living thing has evolved from a universal common ancestor. IF this were true, DNA would be virtually the same in all living things. All living things have DNA but the DNA is unique. Each DNA has a specific combination of amino acids and proteins and these are not interchangeable. The DNA for humans has a completely different type of amino acids and proteins than the DNA of a chimpanzee, even though the structure of our DNA is remarkably similar.

To compound the problem, the amino acids and proteins seem to be unique to the DNA itself. It is as if the DNA is required to produce these amino acids and proteins which enable the DNA to exist. So how does the DNA exist to produce amino acids and proteins essential for the DNA to exist? We don't have an explanation.

 

[RWS]

What that eventually means, is that molecules will separate into atoms, and atoms will separate to sub-atomic particles, and so on. We'll eventually go back to the cosmic "soup" or energy that created this universe, and start over. It happens constantly.

I don't think you can support this with actual science. The atoms of molecules are not growing apart. Subatomic particles in atoms are not growing apart. The universe is rapidly expanding and the expansion is accelerating. It's certainly not "going back" to anything. Now, we've known the universe is expanding for about 100 years or so. It wasn't until the mid '60s that we began to discover the acceleration. This is very problematic for the cyclical universe theory.

What we expected physics to show is that the universe is expanding (from the Big Bang) but that friction produces a slowing rate. Eventually, the expansion would reach equilibrium and gravitational forces would result in contraction. According to laws of motion we should've discovered an expanding but slowing universe... we didn't. So this whole entire idea that our universe is cyclical and everlasting has now become obsolete.

I'm just sayin that the idea that our universe has the perfect ratios that boss mentions, to have the particle interactions that we observe, is not perfect.

Our universe has several immutable dimensionless physical constants. Where did those come from? The only viable explanation I've ever heard is Multiverse theory. That there are an endless number of universes and ours just happens to be the one with finely tuned physical constants to make matter and life possible. The only real problem with that theory is, it can never be validated because we can't observe other universes. What we're left with is faith in a theory that can never be proved or disproved.... exactly the same as belief in a Creator.

I agree, and I can support that with actual science. The way the universe is going due to constantly rapid expansion, eventually means that everything dissipates until the point that our sub-atomic particles become energy again. And we go back to the original energy field. Expansion in space is also acting on expansion in particles.

The laws of physics that govern this universe, cannot sustain an eternal universe. The ratio is wrong. Our universe will continue to expand and revert back to energy. Therefore, our universe is not perfect, but just one that has lasted long enough to create intelligent life. They all will, given they survive long enough. Our universe will end, due to the math being incorrect for us. But that doesn't mean there are other universes that can last longer, and maybe forever, that have the better ratios.

So we are not a "perfect" universe. We're just one that will last a few trillion years.

 

[RWS]

A few trillion years is a hiccup to "god". He didn't create a perfect universe with us. And maybe that's why he no longer cares about us, and is busy on some other universe...

 

[Boss]

I agree, and I can support that with actual science. The way the universe is going due to constantly rapid expansion, eventually means that everything dissipates until the point that our sub-atomic particles become energy again. And we go back to the original energy field. Expansion in space is also acting on expansion in particles.

The laws of physics that govern this universe, cannot sustain an eternal universe. The ratio is wrong. Our universe will continue to expand and revert back to energy. Therefore, our universe is not perfect, but just one that has lasted long enough to create intelligent life. They all will, given they survive long enough. Our universe will end, due to the math being incorrect for us. But that doesn't mean there are other universes that can last longer, and maybe forever, that have the better ratios.

So we are not a "perfect" universe. We're just one that will last a few trillion years.

I don't understand this "perfect universe" thing you keep mentioning. Is anything other than God perfect? I mean, we can find faults in everything, including the universe. This doesn't change the fact that our universe has a set of constants and ratios which are curiously fine tuned for life and matter to exist. Will it last eternally? No... only God is eternal.

You are making a point about subatomic particles becoming energy again. I've never heard this from any credible physicist. In fact, this contradicts physics because energy can't be created or destroyed. Many billions of years from now, our sun will die and collapse. A black hole will consume everything in our solar system. The universe will still be here, still expanding, still accelerating, Eventually, the universe will probably expand to the point there will be no way to support life anywhere.

When the universe reaches this point, there is nothing to explain how it somehow regenerates itself. Maybe it will? Perhaps God IS the universe? What I have written about is the theory of a cyclical universe which expands and contracts back into a singularity. There is no longer any evidence to support that theory.

 

[BreezeWood]

.
brandishing their blade again, must fell left out in the cold.

 

[RWS]

I agree, and I can support that with actual science. The way the universe is going due to constantly rapid expansion, eventually means that everything dissipates until the point that our sub-atomic particles become energy again. And we go back to the original energy field. Expansion in space is also acting on expansion in particles.

The laws of physics that govern this universe, cannot sustain an eternal universe. The ratio is wrong. Our universe will continue to expand and revert back to energy. Therefore, our universe is not perfect, but just one that has lasted long enough to create intelligent life. They all will, given they survive long enough. Our universe will end, due to the math being incorrect for us. But that doesn't mean there are other universes that can last longer, and maybe forever, that have the better ratios.

So we are not a "perfect" universe. We're just one that will last a few trillion years.

I don't understand this "perfect universe" thing you keep mentioning. Is anything other than God perfect? I mean, we can find faults in everything, including the universe. This doesn't change the fact that our universe has a set of constants and ratios which are curiously fine tuned for life and matter to exist. Will it last eternally? No... only God is eternal.

You are making a point about subatomic particles becoming energy again. I've never heard this from any credible physicist. In fact, this contradicts physics because energy can't be created or destroyed. Many billions of years from now, our sun will die and collapse. A black hole will consume everything in our solar system. The universe will still be here, still expanding, still accelerating, Eventually, the universe will probably expand to the point there will be no way to support life anywhere.

When the universe reaches this point, there is nothing to explain how it somehow regenerates itself. Maybe it will? Perhaps God IS the universe? What I have written about is the theory of a cyclical universe which expands and contracts back into a singularity. There is no longer any evidence to support that theory.

You have been mentioning many times about how the perfect ratio of forces in our universe allow our universe to exist, and is therefore a sign that "god" exists because of the precise nature of the ratios.

I have been trying to tell you that the ratio of forces in our universe is not perfect.

Our universe is expanding, which you agree with, and eventually that expansion is going to lead to the end of the universe.

So the ratio of forces is not perfect in this universe, as should be expected by a perfect "Creator" like you suggest.

And now you're changing your tune to save face because you realize I'm right. Go back and look at your posts, before this turns into another slapping battle.

You can't change your tune in the middle of a song.

 

[RWS]

I agree, and I can support that with actual science. The way the universe is going due to constantly rapid expansion, eventually means that everything dissipates until the point that our sub-atomic particles become energy again. And we go back to the original energy field. Expansion in space is also acting on expansion in particles.

The laws of physics that govern this universe, cannot sustain an eternal universe. The ratio is wrong. Our universe will continue to expand and revert back to energy. Therefore, our universe is not perfect, but just one that has lasted long enough to create intelligent life. They all will, given they survive long enough. Our universe will end, due to the math being incorrect for us. But that doesn't mean there are other universes that can last longer, and maybe forever, that have the better ratios.

So we are not a "perfect" universe. We're just one that will last a few trillion years.

I don't understand this "perfect universe" thing you keep mentioning. Is anything other than God perfect?

You don't believe in God. As you have said.

I mean, we can find faults in everything, including the universe. This doesn't change the fact that our universe has a set of constants and ratios which are curiously fine tuned for life and matter to exist. Will it last eternally? No... only God is eternal.

It is only tuned enough for our universe to last as long as it will. Other universes last longer and shorter. It is chance. Not a "God" that you don't believe in.

You are making a point about subatomic particles becoming energy again. I've never heard this from any credible physicist. In fact, this contradicts physics because energy can't be created or destroyed. Many billions of years from now, our sun will die and collapse. A black hole will consume everything in our solar system. The universe will still be here, still expanding, still accelerating, Eventually, the universe will probably expand to the point there will be no way to support life anywhere.

When our sun dies it will NOT become a black hole. Where are you getting this from? Eventually the universe will expand to the point that atoms expand and break apart, and then subatomic particles expand to even smaller particles, up until the point that all particles revert back to their initial state of potential energy. Energy and matter cannot be created or destroyed. Just converted. But matter is energy in concentrated form. And once expanded enough, the matter will not be destroyed, it will be reverted back to energy. Just like it's supposed to do. I don't understand your problem with this fundamental rule of physics all of a sudden. Unless you're so much on the God bandwagon now that you're forgetting basic laws of physics.

When the universe reaches this point, there is nothing to explain how it somehow regenerates itself. Maybe it will? Perhaps God IS the universe? What I have written about is the theory of a cyclical universe which expands and contracts back into a singularity. There is no longer any evidence to support that theory.

When our universe reaches the point where all matter has been converted back to energy through expansion, it is ready to be reused for the next universe. This happens constantly.

Only a perfect ratio from a perfect Creator will allow for a universe to exist forever. And that's definitely not us... Maybe your God exists elsewhere, but he's not in charge of this place.

 

[hobelim]

Only a perfect ratio from a perfect Creator will allow for a universe to exist forever. And that's definitely not us... Maybe your God exists elsewhere, but he's not in charge of this place.

Elsewhere.... exactly. Everything we know about the visible material universe amounts to about only 4% of everything that actually exists. basing conclusions on that isn't very wise. Thats like concluding that there's no life in the ocean because you can't find any life in the puddle of water that you are sitting in.


Did you ever consider that the creation story has nothing whatever to do with the beginning of the universe or solar system or the first plants, animals, or human beings?


When God, an extraterrestrial intelligence, said," let there be light", it is only a reference to law being given as a light to the nations already in existence.

Adam being taken from the dust of the earth and becoming a "living being", " like one of us", only a story of an unsuccessful attempt by superior intelligences to elevate a lower form of life.

When you find the door that leads to elsewhere hidden in the wall of the Temple, which is the Law, , the hidden door the angles pulled Lot through, you will become like they are.

Only then will you have become a living creature capable of perceiving the living God, only then will you know what eternal life is...