Athiest Playbook

[PostmodernProph]

The origins of humankind on Earth
It is estimated that the first members of the human family (hominins) lived in Africa about 6 or 7 million years ago. They are believed to have been forest-dwelling, perhaps walking upright in the trees or when on the ground.

In 2001, cranial fossils of Sahelanthropus tchadensis dating to this time were uncovered in Chad, central Africa. The fossils show a combination of ape-like and human-like features, although how closely relatedSahelanthropus tchadensis is to humans is the subject of debate.

Over millions of years, distinct species and lineages emerged and radiated across Africa. Among them were the earliest members of thegenus Homo, to which modern humans belong.

Replicas of the remarkably complete Australopithecus sediba fossil skeletons found in Malapa Cave, South Africa in 2010.

The earliest fossil evidence of these ancient humans dates to between 1.9 and 2.4 million years ago, and comes from East Africa, although a human-like form of the species Australopithecushas recently been described from South Africa.Australopithecus sediba is 1.98 million years old and is the most human-like australopithecine yet discovered, with an increased front brain cavity and small teeth.

sorry, I am not a member of your cult.....

What cult? I am not a member of any cult. I just have a lot of questions and see a lot of contradictions and would, for once, like to get a straight answer that makes some semblance of sense.

the people who believe the fantasies you quoted......

 

[PostmodernProph]

So, those are the "chosen ones?" What about all of those who had never even heard of the concept?

to be more precise they are the ones who have made their choices.....you have heard of the concept......you don't need to make their choices......you need to make YOUR choices......

But there is not a choice if you are unaware. Do you get that? I'm not talking about today's day and age. I am talking about before Christianity existed. People existed for a very LONG time before Christianity or any other organized religions even existed.

you are aware.......you only need to make choices for yourself, not for people who existed long ago.....

I'm not making choices for them. I'm asking, do you think all of those people are or were in hell because they had never even heard of a god?

based upon what the Bible reveals about God's plan I would say there is NO ONE in hell who never had a choice about whether or not to believe in God.......obviously, there may be those in hell who made the wrong choice......

 

[defcon4]

Also, many agnostics do not believe in any of the "organized religions" since they were made up by ancient men who were ignorant of the world around them.

I sure would dispute that. It is very "matter of fact" like what you stated.

What is very matter of fact? Could you elaborate please?

Oh..sure. Those ancient men built pyramids, they had astronomical knowledge (precise astronomical calculations) without today's instrumentation, they developed the method of mummification, they moved monoliths for hundreds of miles what would be a very challenging task even with todays technology. Just look and see how "ignorant" they were about the world around them.

 

[Meriweather]

That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking you what happened to all of those people? Are they burning in hell now? Do you believe Jesus saved their souls after thousands of years of burning in hell?

The first point to understand is that most Christians do not believe in Dante's version of hell. (People burning.) Most Christians believe that hell is an eternal separation from God. What separates people from God is that they work against the will of God, or are disinclined to serve Him. Some will have you believe God tortures all choose this path.

Most of us, however, see it more from the perspective of the story of the Prodigal Son: The father allows the separation, keeping watch for his son. However, this must be balanced with the story of the ten virgins--that time can run out--and separation becomes eternal.

Most of the stories about burning in the New Testament are describing a burning away of impurities (like gold that's tested in fire); they are not describing an eternity of torture.

 

[ChrisL]

The origins of humankind on Earth
It is estimated that the first members of the human family (hominins) lived in Africa about 6 or 7 million years ago. They are believed to have been forest-dwelling, perhaps walking upright in the trees or when on the ground.

In 2001, cranial fossils of Sahelanthropus tchadensis dating to this time were uncovered in Chad, central Africa. The fossils show a combination of ape-like and human-like features, although how closely relatedSahelanthropus tchadensis is to humans is the subject of debate.

Over millions of years, distinct species and lineages emerged and radiated across Africa. Among them were the earliest members of thegenus Homo, to which modern humans belong.

Replicas of the remarkably complete Australopithecus sediba fossil skeletons found in Malapa Cave, South Africa in 2010.

The earliest fossil evidence of these ancient humans dates to between 1.9 and 2.4 million years ago, and comes from East Africa, although a human-like form of the species Australopithecushas recently been described from South Africa.Australopithecus sediba is 1.98 million years old and is the most human-like australopithecine yet discovered, with an increased front brain cavity and small teeth.

sorry, I am not a member of your cult.....

What cult? I am not a member of any cult. I just have a lot of questions and see a lot of contradictions and would, for once, like to get a straight answer that makes some semblance of sense.

the people who believe the fantasies you quoted......

Um, that's not a fantasy. It is fossil evidence. Basically, you accuse those who believe in evolution as being members of a "cult" and believing in a "fantasy" even though there is solid evidence. OTOH, you expect people to believe in your god with no evidence whatsoever. I don't see how this makes any sense at all.

 

[ChrisL]

That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking you what happened to all of those people? Are they burning in hell now? Do you believe Jesus saved their souls after thousands of years of burning in hell?

The first point to understand is that most Christians do not believe in Dante's version of hell. (People burning.) Most Christians believe that hell is an eternal separation from God. What separates people from God is that they work against the will of God, or are disinclined to serve Him. Some will have you believe God tortures all choose this path.

Most of us, however, see it more from the perspective of the story of the Prodigal Son: The father allows the separation, keeping watch for his son. However, this must be balanced with the story of the ten virgins--that time can run out--and separation becomes eternal.

Most of the stories about burning in the New Testament are describing a burning away of impurities (like gold that's tested in fire); they are not describing an eternity of torture.

Well, I have to tell you that this is MUCH different than how I was taught religion as a child.

I was taught to believe that if you don't have "faith" and you don't follow the traditional customs of Christianity, you go to Hell. Hell is a place where sinners go and Satan is a fallen angel, which God had cast out of Heaven.

 

[Meriweather]

And you truly believe this?

What I find interesting in the passage is that Peter references people in the time of Noah, so it seems to me that encompasses the dead who did not know God through Christ--or Judaism. Peter said nothing about Jesus having to free Jews, who for thousands of years, had followed their covenant with God.

In one of letters, Paul writes that those who do not know God, none-the-less are born with God's law engraved in their hearts, and their own hearts will judge how well they followed what was written on their hearts.

I truly believe that God watches over both the living and those who have passed on. I don't think there are any cracks any of us can fall through. One way or another we have to choose to be for God (His ways) or against Him (His ways).

I put "His ways" in parenthesis because I include atheists/agnostics who may not believe in God, but do believe in good ways versus evil ways.

Believers sometimes have an awkward, unconvincing way of presenting God to others, but I don't think God holds this against those who do not believe.

Well, I thank you for your respectful way of trying to answer my questions. I believe in the basic teachings of Christ and believe he was an intelligent man.

My pleasure. I never tire of conversing about matters of faith and belief.

 

[ChrisL]

Also, many agnostics do not believe in any of the "organized religions" since they were made up by ancient men who were ignorant of the world around them.

I sure would dispute that. It is very "matter of fact" like what you stated.

What is very matter of fact? Could you elaborate please?

Oh..sure. Those ancient men built pyramids, they had astronomical knowledge (precise astronomical calculations) without today's instrumentation, they developed the method of mummification, they moved monoliths for hundreds of miles what would be a very challenging task even with todays technology. Just look and see how "ignorant" they were about the world around them.

Those people you are referring to did not believe in your Christian god. They were pagans.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Um, that's not a fantasy. It is fossil evidence. Basically, you accuse those who believe in evolution as being members of a "cult" and believing in a "fantasy" even though there is solid evidence. OTOH, you expect people to believe in your god with no evidence whatsoever. I don't see how this makes any sense at all.

except for the fact that I also believe in evolution, as I have already told you......I don't believe in abiogenesis, which I don't believe makes any sense at all......nor do I believe that human beings and sequoia trees both evolved from some type of slime mold......

 

[presonorek]

Um, that's not a fantasy. It is fossil evidence. Basically, you accuse those who believe in evolution as being members of a "cult" and believing in a "fantasy" even though there is solid evidence. OTOH, you expect people to believe in your god with no evidence whatsoever. I don't see how this makes any sense at all.

What evidence? How did you get the evidence? Did you read it in a book, on the internet or something? I don't get it. How does an average person obtain scientific evidence of anything?

 

[ChrisL]

Do you realize that a lot of the holidays we celebrate today are a mix of pagan, Christian and Jewish beliefs?

 

[ChrisL]

Um, that's not a fantasy. It is fossil evidence. Basically, you accuse those who believe in evolution as being members of a "cult" and believing in a "fantasy" even though there is solid evidence. OTOH, you expect people to believe in your god with no evidence whatsoever. I don't see how this makes any sense at all.

What evidence? How did you get the evidence? Did you read it in a book, on the internet or something? I don't get it. How does an average person obtain scientific evidence of anything?

What evidence? The fossils of early humans found. How can you not get it?

 

[defcon4]

Also, many agnostics do not believe in any of the "organized religions" since they were made up by ancient men who were ignorant of the world around them.

I sure would dispute that. It is very "matter of fact" like what you stated.

What is very matter of fact? Could you elaborate please?

Oh..sure. Those ancient men built pyramids, they had astronomical knowledge (precise astronomical calculations) without today's instrumentation, they developed the method of mummification, they moved monoliths for hundreds of miles what would be a very challenging task even with todays technology. Just look and see how "ignorant" they were about the world around them.

Those people you are referring to did not believe in your Christian god. They were pagans.

My answer was to your categoric classification of ancient men being ignorant about their surroundings and not if they believed in Christ or God.

 

[Meriweather]

Well, I have to tell you that this is MUCH different than how I was taught religion as a child.

I was taught to believe that if you don't have "faith" and you don't follow the traditional customs of Christianity, you go to Hell. Hell is a place where sinners go and Satan is a fallen angel, which God had cast out of Heaven.

When I was a child, I had some very good teachers. Sometimes I hear complaints about the way some Sisters of Mercy taught, but I have no complaints about the way I was taught by the Sisters of Notre Dame. They had a lot to do with my continuing curiosity and study into my adult life.

My curiosity encompasses trying to learn and understand why people have such different perspectives of Christianity/God.

 

[presonorek]

What evidence? The fossils of early humans found. How can you not get it?

I don't have any of that stuff and I have no way to verify that the fossils are real. I'm just a regular Joe. I don't understand how any of that stuff works. I'll just have to take their word for it. I have to take it on faith because I don't possess the scientific knowledge to understand the things that they do. I simply believe it because it was written in a book. You are very fortunate that you have sufficient knowledge to verify their claims. I don't have that. I just have to take them at their word.

 

[defcon4]

Also, many agnostics do not believe in any of the "organized religions" since they were made up by ancient men who were ignorant of the world around them.

I sure would dispute that. It is very "matter of fact" like what you stated.

What is very matter of fact? Could you elaborate please?

Oh..sure. Those ancient men built pyramids, they had astronomical knowledge (precise astronomical calculations) without today's instrumentation, they developed the method of mummification, they moved monoliths for hundreds of miles what would be a very challenging task even with todays technology. Just look and see how "ignorant" they were about the world around them.

Those people you are referring to did not believe in your Christian god. They were pagans.

If you followed my posts before this one you could see that the symbols what I posted were not the symbols of Christianity. Even the Calvary Cross was as symbol of the perfect cube unfolded before Christianity.

 

[ChrisL]

Um, that's not a fantasy. It is fossil evidence. Basically, you accuse those who believe in evolution as being members of a "cult" and believing in a "fantasy" even though there is solid evidence. OTOH, you expect people to believe in your god with no evidence whatsoever. I don't see how this makes any sense at all.

except for the fact that I also believe in evolution, as I have already told you......I don't believe in abiogenesis, which I don't believe makes any sense at all......nor do I believe that human beings and sequoia trees both evolved from the same type of slime mold......

Well, why would God put humans on the earth who did not believe in him? Because the earliest religious beliefs recorded were related to paganism, not Christianity. Even Judaism didn't come about until around 4000 years ago.

 

[ChrisL]

Also, many agnostics do not believe in any of the "organized religions" since they were made up by ancient men who were ignorant of the world around them.

I sure would dispute that. It is very "matter of fact" like what you stated.

What is very matter of fact? Could you elaborate please?

Oh..sure. Those ancient men built pyramids, they had astronomical knowledge (precise astronomical calculations) without today's instrumentation, they developed the method of mummification, they moved monoliths for hundreds of miles what would be a very challenging task even with todays technology. Just look and see how "ignorant" they were about the world around them.

Those people you are referring to did not believe in your Christian god. They were pagans.

If you followed my posts before this one you could see that the symbols what I posted were not the symbols of Christianity. Even the Calvary Cross was as symbol of the perfect cube unfolded before Christianity.

But the cross was not originally a Christian symbol. It was a pagan symbol, which was borrowed and changed to fit Christianity.

 

[presonorek]

the earliest religious beliefs recorded were related to paganism, not Christianity. Even Judaism didn't come about until around 4000 years ago.

That is very interesting.

 

[ChrisL]

What evidence? The fossils of early humans found. How can you not get it?

I don't have any of that stuff and I have no way to verify that the fossils are real. I'm just a regular Joe. I don't understand how any of that stuff works. I'll just have to take their word for it. I have to take it on faith because I don't possess the scientific knowledge to understand the things that they do. I simply believe it because it was written in a book. You are very fortunate that you have sufficient knowledge to verify their claims. I don't have that. I just have to take them at their word.

So, you think the scientists, archaeologists and others who discovered and studied these bones, which are well described and talked about in textbooks are lies or what?

Also, what is your personal belief? Do tell.