Baker must make gay cakes

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I understand and support the baker's right to not serve fags.

Which doesn’t make any sense given the fact no such ‘right’ exists.

Otherwise, you certainly seem to care about this issue for someone who ‘doesn’t care.’

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

As a practicing Catholic, no I would not bake a remarrying cake for a divorcee. In regards to gluttony, true it's a sin, however it is not restricted only to food. One is guilty of gluttony if one only avails to himself all the comforts of life by not sharing with others.

Okay, let's try a different scenario:
Two women walk into your bakery. They ask for a cake. They say their reasons are their own but it is a big happy day. They suggest their business had great fourth quarter profits.
They would like three-layered cake, with frilly edges, Fondant icing, and columns supporting each successive layer. They would like a rainbow of icing gel to run down from the top layer and progress not unlike a waterfall to the bottom layer. They ask for no inscription.
Do you make the cake for these happy business partners?

Yes. There is no mention of the cake being used for any gay wedding ceremony, or any gay event, so I'm fine with it, even if they had revealed that they are gay. Which they did not.

So then the two women get married, instead of celebrating profits, and serve the cake you baked. You have baked a cake for a same-sex wedding. And you'll know because the two women will give you good reviews for how good the cake was. More same-sex couples will come to you to bake their wedding cakes, with a wink and a nod. Your same sex customers will sing from the mountaintops as to how good your gay wedding cakes are. More same sex couples will come to get their cake from you. You will be known all over town as that guy who bakes really great cakes for gay weddings.

How does this put you square with your religious objection? Does a priori ignorance grant you some special celestial immunity? Does a wink and a nod set you right with the Lord? How long can you pretend to not catch on to the fact that your wedding cakes really empowers same-sex marriage?

 

[Jughead]

Okay, let's try a different scenario:
Two women walk into your bakery. They ask for a cake. They say their reasons are their own but it is a big happy day. They suggest their business had great fourth quarter profits.
They would like three-layered cake, with frilly edges, Fondant icing, and columns supporting each successive layer. They would like a rainbow of icing gel to run down from the top layer and progress not unlike a waterfall to the bottom layer. They ask for no inscription.
Do you make the cake for these happy business partners?

Yes. There is no mention of the cake being used for any gay wedding ceremony, or any gay event, so I'm fine with it, even if they had revealed that they are gay. Which they did not.

So then the two women get married, instead of celebrating profits, and serve the cake you baked. You have baked a cake for a same-sex wedding. And you'll know because the two women will give you good reviews for how good the cake was. More same-sex couples will come to you to bake their wedding cakes, with a wink and a nod. Your same sex customers will sing from the mountaintops as to how good your gay wedding cakes are. More same sex couples will come to get their cake from you. You will be known all over town as that guy who bakes really great cakes for gay weddings.

How does this put you square with your religious objection? Does a priori ignorance grant you some special celestial immunity? Does a wink and a nod set you right with the Lord? How long can you pretend to not catch on to the fact that your wedding cakes really empowers same-sex marriage?

If I am lied to believing that my cake would not be used for a gay wedding ceremony, and it in fact is, then I am not the one who committed the sin. I didn't lie.

I believe in honesty. If they were to tell me that the cake would be used for a gay wedding ceremony, then I would not sell it to them. On the other hand, if they fibbed, and told me that the cake was intended for a business party, and I was convinced, then I would sell the cake to them, regardless if I knew that they were gay. I trust everyone, however if I believed that I was being misled, for instance if they started chatting about a gay wedding amongst themselves, then I would not sell them the cake.

 

[Katzndogz]

The world is full of people who sell their principles. Or have no troubling principles. They would be happy to make tons of wedding cakes for same sex couples. Same sex couples should be happy to make these bakers wildly wealthy. That isn't what they want though. What these homosexuals want is for the principled to violate their principles. That's all. These service providers are now hypocrites. Their religious principles are now for sale. They can be for sale because the believers don't really believe.

That's what they want. Everything else is window dressing.

 

[Seawytch]

Yes. There is no mention of the cake being used for any gay wedding ceremony, or any gay event, so I'm fine with it, even if they had revealed that they are gay. Which they did not.

So then the two women get married, instead of celebrating profits, and serve the cake you baked. You have baked a cake for a same-sex wedding. And you'll know because the two women will give you good reviews for how good the cake was. More same-sex couples will come to you to bake their wedding cakes, with a wink and a nod. Your same sex customers will sing from the mountaintops as to how good your gay wedding cakes are. More same sex couples will come to get their cake from you. You will be known all over town as that guy who bakes really great cakes for gay weddings.



How does this put you square with your religious objection? Does a priori ignorance grant you some special celestial immunity? Does a wink and a nod set you right with the Lord? How long can you pretend to not catch on to the fact that your wedding cakes really empowers same-sex marriage?

If I am lied to believing that my cake would not be used for a gay wedding ceremony, and it in fact is, then I am not the one who committed the sin. I didn't lie.



I believe in honesty. If they were to tell me that the cake would be used for a gay wedding ceremony, then I would not sell it to them. On the other hand, if they fibbed, and told me that the cake was intended for a business party, and I was convinced, then I would sell the cake to them, regardless if I knew that they were gay. I trust everyone, however if I believed that I was being misled, for instance if they started chatting about a gay wedding amongst themselves, then I would not sell them the cake.

But slothful, drunken, gluttonous fatties...they can eat cake!

 

[Jarlaxle]

I do not like black people, or Asians. Therefore I will not serve them anything if they come into my store. To do so would be in violation of my rights.

Think I could get away with that?

You should be able to.

 

[Katzndogz]

I do not like black people, or Asians. Therefore I will not serve them anything if they come into my store. To do so would be in violation of my rights.

Think I could get away with that?

You should be able to.

That's not even close to what happened. No gay person was refused service at that bakery. They were refused a special order wedding cake.

 

[LockeJaw]

Stfu punk ass lawyer. I know when you're wrong. And here you are wrong. Self determination means everything ....you state worshipping fuckwad, say. Otherwise....bring it on punk, we are ready bitch

I understand and support the baker's right to not serve fags.

Which doesn’t make any sense given the fact no such ‘right’ exists.

Otherwise, you certainly seem to care about this issue for someone who ‘doesn’t care.’

Shut up, chickenshit lawyer. Freedom of association is q natural right...come take it from me, punk.

 

[Seawytch]

Stfu punk ass lawyer. I know when you're wrong. And here you are wrong. Self determination means everything ....you state worshipping fuckwad, say. Otherwise....bring it on punk, we are ready bitch

I understand and support the baker's right to not serve fags.

Which doesn’t make any sense given the fact no such ‘right’ exists.



Otherwise, you certainly seem to care about this issue for someone who ‘doesn’t care.’

Shut up, chickenshit lawyer. Freedom of association is q natural right...come take it from me, punk.

Yeah...stop being all rational and shit. Someone is trying to have an irrational homophobic breakdown here! Damn...

 

[hipeter924]

True that, all this complaining about how Obama is running a fascist/communist state because right-wingers got butt-hurt by a state law. Shut up and bake the cakes already, or lobby for repealing the state law.

I think you missed the sarcasm.

You cannot expect Hipster to catch obvious sarcasm, he sees no contradiction in claiming to be a "Social Democrat & Anarchocommunist with Anarcho capitalist leanings & also a member of the Green Party"...Yes he claimed to be all of these. He's a moron so there is no reason to take him seriously.


Just slap him around a bit like I do. Lol

You wouldn't understand idealism and pragmatism if they hit you in the face. Just because someone's ideals are individualism and a society without Corporations or Government, doesn't undermine what their pragmatic positions may be.

But I wouldn't expect a neo-liberal statist to know the first thing about ideals, as their only ideal is dog eats dog and invading other countries to steal their oil.

Start learning Chinese, because if you are the best of what America has offer, it is finished.

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

Yes. There is no mention of the cake being used for any gay wedding ceremony, or any gay event, so I'm fine with it, even if they had revealed that they are gay. Which they did not.

So then the two women get married, instead of celebrating profits, and serve the cake you baked. You have baked a cake for a same-sex wedding. And you'll know because the two women will give you good reviews for how good the cake was. More same-sex couples will come to you to bake their wedding cakes, with a wink and a nod. Your same sex customers will sing from the mountaintops as to how good your gay wedding cakes are. More same sex couples will come to get their cake from you. You will be known all over town as that guy who bakes really great cakes for gay weddings.

How does this put you square with your religious objection? Does a priori ignorance grant you some special celestial immunity? Does a wink and a nod set you right with the Lord? How long can you pretend to not catch on to the fact that your wedding cakes really empowers same-sex marriage?

If I am lied to believing that my cake would not be used for a gay wedding ceremony, and it in fact is, then I am not the one who committed the sin. I didn't lie.

I believe in honesty. If they were to tell me that the cake would be used for a gay wedding ceremony, then I would not sell it to them. On the other hand, if they fibbed, and told me that the cake was intended for a business party, and I was convinced, then I would sell the cake to them, regardless if I knew that they were gay. I trust everyone, however if I believed that I was being misled, for instance if they started chatting about a gay wedding amongst themselves, then I would not sell them the cake.

So you feel that you should have the right to deny a product to a customer on the basis of what the customer is going to do with it after they leave your shop.

What would you be willing to sell the same-sex couple for their wedding feast? Would you deny them loaves of bread? If so, then you are plainly in violation of Colorado's public accommodation laws because it does not matter if they take the bread home for personal consumption or serve the bread at a wedding feast; as a baker providing public accommodation, you can't deny them bread. You do understand it is important that you cannot deny bread to people, don't you?
Would you deny them pastries? See above.

So what is so special about cake? We have established they can get the cake from you anyway.

 

[Jughead]

So then the two women get married, instead of celebrating profits, and serve the cake you baked. You have baked a cake for a same-sex wedding. And you'll know because the two women will give you good reviews for how good the cake was. More same-sex couples will come to you to bake their wedding cakes, with a wink and a nod. Your same sex customers will sing from the mountaintops as to how good your gay wedding cakes are. More same sex couples will come to get their cake from you. You will be known all over town as that guy who bakes really great cakes for gay weddings.

How does this put you square with your religious objection? Does a priori ignorance grant you some special celestial immunity? Does a wink and a nod set you right with the Lord? How long can you pretend to not catch on to the fact that your wedding cakes really empowers same-sex marriage?

If I am lied to believing that my cake would not be used for a gay wedding ceremony, and it in fact is, then I am not the one who committed the sin. I didn't lie.

I believe in honesty. If they were to tell me that the cake would be used for a gay wedding ceremony, then I would not sell it to them. On the other hand, if they fibbed, and told me that the cake was intended for a business party, and I was convinced, then I would sell the cake to them, regardless if I knew that they were gay. I trust everyone, however if I believed that I was being misled, for instance if they started chatting about a gay wedding amongst themselves, then I would not sell them the cake.

So you feel that you should have the right to deny a product to a customer on the basis of what the customer is going to do with it after they leave your shop.

What would you be willing to sell the same-sex couple for their wedding feast? Would you deny them loaves of bread? If so, then you are plainly in violation of Colorado's public accommodation laws because it does not matter if they take the bread home for personal consumption or serve the bread at a wedding feast; as a baker providing public accommodation, you can't deny them bread. You do understand it is important that you cannot deny bread to people, don't you?
Would you deny them pastries? See above.

So what is so special about cake? We have established they can get the cake from you anyway.

A cake is an important aspect of any wedding. Knowingly baking a wedding cake for a gay wedding, is endorsing support for that wedding. May as well attend the ceremony while at it. Just abandon your faith, no big deal, right?

Folks have forgotten that religious freedom is a constitutional right.

I am pleased to hear that Mr. Phillips will stand his ground, and not renounce his faith, just as I expected. He'll likely go to jail in order to keep practicing his faith, just as I would.

“There will be some reporting requirements so that Jack can demonstrate that he doesn’t exercise his belief system anymore – that he has divested himself of his beliefs,” she said.
He will also be required to create new policies and procedures for his staff.

“We consider this reporting to be aimed at rehabilitating Jack so that he has the right thoughts,” Martin said. “That’s offensive to everything America stands for.”

Phillips, who is celebrating his 40th year in business this week, told me he’s not going to create any new policies.

“My old ones are pretty adequate as far as I’m concerned,” he said. “I don’t plan on giving up my faith and changing because of that.”

Baker Will Not Renounce His Faith

 

[martybegan]

1st Amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

If someone's religion prohibits doing business with homosexuals then forcing them to do business with homosexuals is a prohibition on that person's free exercise of his religion.

Progressive response:

SHUT UP AND BAKE CAKES!!!

Also incorrect.

‘Progressives’ understand the Constitution and its case law, and follow the law accordingly; something most conservatives clearly are incapable of doing.

But the end result is SHUT UP AND BAKE CAKES

you try to make it sound noble, but in the end you are forcing someone to do something they consider immoral.

 

[Peach]

If I am lied to believing that my cake would not be used for a gay wedding ceremony, and it in fact is, then I am not the one who committed the sin. I didn't lie.

I believe in honesty. If they were to tell me that the cake would be used for a gay wedding ceremony, then I would not sell it to them. On the other hand, if they fibbed, and told me that the cake was intended for a business party, and I was convinced, then I would sell the cake to them, regardless if I knew that they were gay. I trust everyone, however if I believed that I was being misled, for instance if they started chatting about a gay wedding amongst themselves, then I would not sell them the cake.

So you feel that you should have the right to deny a product to a customer on the basis of what the customer is going to do with it after they leave your shop.

What would you be willing to sell the same-sex couple for their wedding feast? Would you deny them loaves of bread? If so, then you are plainly in violation of Colorado's public accommodation laws because it does not matter if they take the bread home for personal consumption or serve the bread at a wedding feast; as a baker providing public accommodation, you can't deny them bread. You do understand it is important that you cannot deny bread to people, don't you?
Would you deny them pastries? See above.

So what is so special about cake? We have established they can get the cake from you anyway.

A cake is an important aspect of any wedding. Knowingly baking a wedding cake for a gay wedding, is endorsing support for that wedding. May as well attend the ceremony while at it. Just abandon your faith, no big deal, right?

Folks have forgotten that religious freedom is a constitutional right.

I am pleased to hear that Mr. Phillips will stand his ground, and not renounce his faith, just as I expected. He'll likely go to jail in order to keep practicing his faith, just as I would.

“There will be some reporting requirements so that Jack can demonstrate that he doesn’t exercise his belief system anymore – that he has divested himself of his beliefs,” she said.
He will also be required to create new policies and procedures for his staff.

“We consider this reporting to be aimed at rehabilitating Jack so that he has the right thoughts,” Martin said. “That’s offensive to everything America stands for.”

Phillips, who is celebrating his 40th year in business this week, told me he’s not going to create any new policies.

“My old ones are pretty adequate as far as I’m concerned,” he said. “I don’t plan on giving up my faith and changing because of that.”

Baker Will Not Renounce His Faith

Who has asked to renounce his faith? Will he bake cakes for atheists? Convicted felons? It appears only gay humans are subject to restrictions in his faith.

 

[Mac1958]

.

The couple could have easily chosen to take their business elsewhere.

Instead, they chose to make an issue of it.

That's how the PC Police operates. The "laws" are not the issue here, although that's the excuse. Control is. Conformity.

.

 

[martybegan]

So you feel that you should have the right to deny a product to a customer on the basis of what the customer is going to do with it after they leave your shop.

What would you be willing to sell the same-sex couple for their wedding feast? Would you deny them loaves of bread? If so, then you are plainly in violation of Colorado's public accommodation laws because it does not matter if they take the bread home for personal consumption or serve the bread at a wedding feast; as a baker providing public accommodation, you can't deny them bread. You do understand it is important that you cannot deny bread to people, don't you?
Would you deny them pastries? See above.

So what is so special about cake? We have established they can get the cake from you anyway.

A cake is an important aspect of any wedding. Knowingly baking a wedding cake for a gay wedding, is endorsing support for that wedding. May as well attend the ceremony while at it. Just abandon your faith, no big deal, right?

Folks have forgotten that religious freedom is a constitutional right.

I am pleased to hear that Mr. Phillips will stand his ground, and not renounce his faith, just as I expected. He'll likely go to jail in order to keep practicing his faith, just as I would.

“There will be some reporting requirements so that Jack can demonstrate that he doesn’t exercise his belief system anymore – that he has divested himself of his beliefs,” she said.
He will also be required to create new policies and procedures for his staff.

“We consider this reporting to be aimed at rehabilitating Jack so that he has the right thoughts,” Martin said. “That’s offensive to everything America stands for.”

Phillips, who is celebrating his 40th year in business this week, told me he’s not going to create any new policies.

“My old ones are pretty adequate as far as I’m concerned,” he said. “I don’t plan on giving up my faith and changing because of that.”

Baker Will Not Renounce His Faith

Who has asked to renounce his faith? Will he bake cakes for atheists? Convicted felons? It appears only gay humans are subject to restrictions in his faith.

Who cares? Why should the might of the government be used to force a baker to bake a cake? The entire purpose of public accommodation laws was to prevent locations from refusing WALK IN customers asking for the EXACT SAME service at THAT INSTANT. i.e. the white guy gets his coffee but "no coffee for you ******." That is what was to be prevented, plus other necessary services such as medical, and lodging during travel.

Having a baker that doesn't want to make a cake for your wedding tell you "no" is not a debilitating event. There are other bakers, and it is not like the people are going there for an instant service that everyone else is getting.

 

[Seawytch]

[

Who has asked to renounce his faith? Will he bake cakes for atheists? Convicted felons? It appears only gay humans are subject to restrictions in his faith.

At the time, Phillips told Denver's KDVR that his religious beliefs prevented him from serving the couple, and admitted to refusing service to other same-sex couples. But in December, administrative law judge Robert N. Spencer rejected that reasoning, noting that Phillips's shop had previously agreed to make a cake for the wedding of two dogs, rendering his supposed religiously based opposition moot.

 

[BobPlumb]

[

Who has asked to renounce his faith? Will he bake cakes for atheists? Convicted felons? It appears only gay humans are subject to restrictions in his faith.

At the time, Phillips told Denver's KDVR that his religious beliefs prevented him from serving the couple, and admitted to refusing service to other same-sex couples. But in December, administrative law judge Robert N. Spencer rejected that reasoning, noting that Phillips's shop had previously agreed to make a cake for the wedding of two dogs, rendering his supposed religiously based opposition moot.

Were the dogs same sex or opposite sex?

 

[Peach]

.

The couple could have easily chosen to take their business elsewhere.

Instead, they chose to make an issue of it.

That's how the PC Police operates. The "laws" are not the issue here, although that's the excuse. Control is. Conformity.

.

The baker can choose to follow the law of his state, he chose not to do so. Thus, he can expect state action. One can choose to live, and operate one's business in locations that do not require "violating" one's faith, though how only refusing to make wedding cakes for gay Americans is a "faith" remains unexplained.

 

[martybegan]

.

The couple could have easily chosen to take their business elsewhere.

Instead, they chose to make an issue of it.

That's how the PC Police operates. The "laws" are not the issue here, although that's the excuse. Control is. Conformity.

.

The baker can choose to follow the law of his state, he chose not to do so. Thus, he can expect state action. One can choose to live, and operate one's business in locations that do not require "violating" one's faith, though how only refusing to make wedding cakes for gay Americans is a "faith" remains unexplained.

So it is more proper for a business to have to relocate than for a couple to have to find another baker. The laws of his state are stupid, or more to the point, a judges interpretation of said law is stupid.