Bible Questions

[Quantum Windbag]

There are people that ask Jesus what he would do and go out and kill people. I am not going to fall into that trap, nor am I going to pretend that I know better than someone else simply because I talk to Jesus. If DT wants to come in and admit he is wrong I will be merciful, as long as he insist on dictating when and how I can pray I will get in his face and offend him.

My dear Quantum:
1. when we hold anger in our hearts toward our brother, we have already committed murder in spirit by "killing" the relationship and the love/understanding between us.

Let's get something straight, he is not my brother, he is my enemy, and will remain my enemy as long as he insists that his right not to be offended trumps my right to practice my religion.

Also, I am not angry, I am just not going to roll over and let him walk over me. Don't let the fact that he likes to pretend he is lofty and intelligent fool you into misunderstanding my tactics.

2. if you wait until he admits wrong to be forgiving that is "conditional"
Believers in Jesus as God are called to love others as Jesus loves us which is unconditional
as God's love, not as man's material ways of only rewarding those who we feel deserve it.
We are supposed to rise above, and love others as God does, which means to offer the unconditional love and forgiveness of God first, without condition, but with faith that this allows God into the relationship to correct the wrongs AFTERWARD in that spirit of healing.
God's love and grace is not earned, but is rained upon us all in order for healing and growth.

it takes a leap of faith, or else understanding of how grace works, to forgive first and let the corrections follow. but that is how it works, that's how God's grace and will saves us where otherwise we as human beings would keep projecting our own conditions to be met before we forgive, and this causes the other person to do the same so both people deadlock.
It kills the relationship in spirit, that is not life but death by unforgiveness which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that passes on to inflict a cycle of retribution and suffering.
We are supposed to break this cycle of sin and suffering by invoking grace through Christ.

See James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another and pray for one another that ye may be healed. There are also passages in Luke Mark or Matthew where we remove the beam from our own eyes before we are better able to help our neighbor remove a splinter. Quantum, it does not say to insist your neighbor remove a beam or a splinter first! It is a mutual process.

Change happens in response to what we agree to forgive and change.
What we cannot forgive, that is where we ask for God to please intervene and bring forgiveness first, to remove the deadlock so we can deal with the rest ourselves.

We are going to have those limits and moments to remind us we are human,
we are limited and biased where we are not going to be able to let go of things without help.

So this makes us equal, since everyone has these limits and we need to invoke God's love which is unconditional to intervene where we run into conditions. God's love is greater than our human love which has its limits; this is to humble us, and to remind us what it means to be human and imperfect while God's perfect love knows no bounds and no conditions but includes everyone where we do not and make rules of who we will love or try to forgive and understand. God is greater and that is why we turn to God.

Thank you for being honest about where you have lines in the sand and conditions. Obviously DT has limits also, and me and
everyone else here. This is where we ask help to be bigger and let God in to overcome those conditions we have that otherwise
limit or block our ability to understand and love each other more fully, as Jesus would call us to be "perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect" meaning spiritually mature and whole, not divided and weakened by our flaws.

Forgiveness allows God to intervene, and asking for that help is where God respects our free will and waits for us to ask permission for God's will to be done, it cannot be forced on us.

Your ability to ask help with forgiveness determines your connection with the salvation process. If DT can forgive or ask help to forgive the conflict, that is DT's choice in the process. I hope we all choose to ask help to forgive for the sake of our relations in Christ.
All the other issues will find correction in the process, once we all agree to let forgiveness in.

Take care QW and I will continue to keep all this in prayer!
Love peace and wisdom to you, may you be truly blessed!
Yours truly,
Love, Emily

Now you are confusing forgiveness and stupidity. I deal with drug addicts on a regular basis, many of whom are thieves. I forgive them for their actions, but I don't leave my wallet sitting around where they can take it.

Everyone should understand the difference.

 

[emilynghiem]

Thank you for your attempt to intervene and mediate. Your intentions are goodhearted and accepted with all sincerity. The issue at hand is simple enough to resolve. The teachings of your Lord and Savior clearly state that refraining from profanity (amongst other things) is the expected behavior of those who believe in him and are trying to achieve salvation. This is either true or not true. Your interpretation will be final and unconditionally accepted irrespective of whichever way you choose to decide. Peace.

Thank you DT. I believe as we answer anger with kindness, and forgive faults so we can hear what each other is trying to say despite the flaws we each have, then these issues of profanity or jab-insults will fall away in the process. There won't be any need to project barriers or conditions because we will have gotten past those.

Neither profanity nor making an issue of stopping profanity, should cause conflict to block relations or argue over "conditions of salvation" where this becomes as a "stumbling block."

Whatever conflicts or blocks to salvation this would cause
are remediated by "forgiveness" where correction will surely follow hand in hand.

As for QW and anyone else expressing personal insult from insinuations, etc.
the more we hear what issues and experiences people are bringing here, which weren't resolved in the past, it's easier to see how these are projected and repeated here for the purpose of resolution and healing. This is an opportunity to work out the past issues that are causing people to react negatively and start projecting back and forth. Whatever we resolve here, can make a difference in resolving relations in general where this is going on everywhere.

So if we can please help each other to be kinder and more specific in trying to include each other, regardless of what issues we each have from the past or with each other, any sacrifices we make for the sake of better relations in Christ will be replicated and inspire equal change among others we interact with, so the healing and growth is multiplied.

At the end of Matthew 18:15-20 whenever we pray together in agreement in Christ, for whatever touches anything on earth, it is done by our Father in Heaven. Whatever good things we agree to focus on, or bad things we agree to release and let go, so the same things happen collectively with all others who are going through this same process.

We are working THROUGH salvation with humility; it is already done by God's will but this is how the steps are reflected in our human experiences so we can understand and appreciate.

Thank you, and I ask your help to try to include and hear QW and KG and anyone else on here that challenges you. This is God working through us to make us more perfect like Jesus.
Let us give thanks and receive the lessons and changes God is offering us that will help us to grow together, each sharing and receiving equal corrections from others as we offer also.
This way, we are all equal children of God in Christ Jesus, where none of our individual strengths or weaknesses make us any better or worse than anyone else who has the same.
We are all here to help each other, remove beams from our eyes that the other person sees.

It is a very humbling process to realize we are equally loved, it is an honor to be able to interact with you freely as a gift from God, and I thank you and everyone for sharing here!
Please take care, and thanks for helping to multiply the blessings coming through this forum.

Whatever we do for the least of society among us, that is for Jesus and equal justice for all.

 

[emilynghiem]

LOL. I like the orchestra analogy. Not only are we all playing different instruments, but when some are playing Mozart's "The Magic Flute" and others Beethoven's "Fifth Symphony" and still others mix in Wagner's "The Ride of the Valkyries' along with a Brahms lullabye, all at the same time, it can get really discordant.

But break it down and it is still all music.

Yeah, and some people think Jazz is noise, or country music is torture from hell.
(But if you've ever heard bad Asian karaoke, I think you would know what it means to repent, and pray for God's mercy for that person to please get off the mic and spare us all!)

Even within the same symphonic masterpiece
it is disastrous to try to force the Saxophone's to play the clarinet or flute part, etc.
where these are in different keys. Sometimes one section is supposed to be silent,
and does not play the same thing as others. It is NOT supposed to be all the same
for a REASON.

Also, if you think about the same song adapted for different genres or instruments,
for voice, or for flute piano or guitar, it comes out completely different. the same song done
as rock, is different from jazz, or classical arrangements.

So if you take the spirit of God's truth, embodied in man under authority of Jesus,
and "express" that using Constitutional laws for the secular state to follow
it would come out different from scriptural laws for the church to hear.
the audience and the range are different.

These will not be the same, but they can still harmonize and agree
like bass and treble clef to cover the whole range. This is what truly fascinates me, this process of reconciling where we don't freak out like people are doing now, left and right.
How we get there from where we are now, that's a great challenge to even envision,
but God's will through Christ makes all things possible, where all things are made new.
God is going to get his way, and miraculously by free will, where we will eventually
come to understanding and FREELY AGREE to follow this plan instead of fighting it with fear.
Only God is perfect and universal enough to move people to receive by free will.
God's perfect love will eventually cast out all that fear where we can see more clearly.
So every eye shall see, every hear shall hear, all hearts and minds will receive.
God's truth by definition being universal will be made perfectly clear
as the light of Christ will come through the clouds of confusion and bring clarity.

Even if we don't know how to play music perfectly ourselves,
we know the difference when a symphony is playing in harmony and when they are clashing and making noise, so we recognize the right answers when we see them.

(With Jazz, maybe not so much. I will leave that to the experts to tell me when it is supposed to sound like that! Bad karaoke, I think we all know when that is painfully wrong!)

 

[Foxfyre]

LOL. I like the orchestra analogy. Not only are we all playing different instruments, but when some are playing Mozart's "The Magic Flute" and others Beethoven's "Fifth Symphony" and still others mix in Wagner's "The Ride of the Valkyries' along with a Brahms lullabye, all at the same time, it can get really discordant.

But break it down and it is still all music.

Yeah, and some people think Jazz is noise, or country music is torture from hell.
(But if you've ever heard bad Asian karaoke, I think you would know what it means to repent, and pray for God's mercy for that person to please get off the mic and spare us all!)

Even within the same symphonic masterpiece
it is disastrous to try to force the Saxophone's to play the clarinet or flute part, etc.
where these are in different keys. Sometimes one section is supposed to be silent,
and does not play the same thing as others. It is NOT supposed to be all the same
for a REASON.

Also, if you think about the same song adapted for different genres or instruments,
for voice, or for flute piano or guitar, it comes out completely different. the same song done
as rock, is different from jazz, or classical arrangements.

So if you take the spirit of God's truth, embodied in man under authority of Jesus,
and "express" that using Constitutional laws for the secular state to follow
it would come out different from scriptural laws for the church to hear.
the audience and the range are different.

These will not be the same, but they can still harmonize and agree
like bass and treble clef to cover the whole range. This is what truly fascinates me, this process of reconciling where we don't freak out like people are doing now, left and right.
How we get there from where we are now, that's a great challenge to even envision,
but God's will through Christ makes all things possible, where all things are made new.
God is going to get his way, and miraculously by free will, where we will eventually
come to understanding and FREELY AGREE to follow this plan instead of fighting it with fear.
Only God is perfect and universal enough to move people to receive by free will.
God's perfect love will eventually cast out all that fear where we can see more clearly.
So every eye shall see, every hear shall hear, all hearts and minds will receive.
God's truth by definition being universal will be made perfectly clear
as the light of Christ will come through the clouds of confusion and bring clarity.

Even if we don't know how to play music perfectly ourselves,
we know the difference when a symphony is playing in harmony and when they are clashing and making noise, so we recognize the right answers when we see them.

(With Jazz, maybe not so much. I will leave that to the experts to tell me when it is supposed to sound like that! Bad karaoke, I think we all know when that is painfully wrong!)

Well we'll assign the Westboro Baptists to the bad karaoke (or really disgusting rap) section as most of us look at their actions that way. They think they are making music. The rest of us don't hear any music in what they do at all. Well intentioned? I can't say as I've never met a one of them. Cruel, hateful results? Absolutely. But in their minds they are correcting and admonishing others for their sins.

 

[emilynghiem]

Let's get something straight, he is not my brother, he is my enemy, and will remain my enemy as long as he insists that his right not to be offended trumps my right to practice my religion.

Also, I am not angry, I am just not going to roll over and let him walk over me. Don't let the fact that he likes to pretend he is lofty and intelligent fool you into misunderstanding my tactics.

Hi QW and thanks for explaining in detail.
If you and DT see each other as "enemies" maybe you both owe an apology to each other for coming across this way, because I certainly don't see either of you this way.

I see the division and fear of the other person's intent or negativity as
the "enemy" coming in to rob us from having good faith relations in Christ;
however, God is just using this to bring about correction so this blockage is removed.

Again, I see the forgiveness/correction process as mutual, where both parties would
have to agree to let the spirit of Christ govern and enter the relationship to clean up
whatever negative mess is going on causing division and seeing each other as enemies.

Don't let the enemy of unforgiveness and negative fear the other person is trying to control or manipulate or force you to compromise. Let Christ be in control, and we submit to him.

No one can divide us where we are united in Christ.
So I vote for that, and no to the idea that we are each other's enemies.
If God is with us, no one can be against us, that is manipulation in our minds and we must submit our minds to Christ and not let the real enemy mess with us and divide us.

I pray we all receive greater wisdom and understanding in this,
that we become better stronger people and more humble at the same time
so no one can manipulate us to divide in enemy camps and destroy our relations.

The whole nation needs this kind of humbling and correction,
so again, I ask and pray that we receive that here so that the same can be done globally.

Now you are confusing forgiveness and stupidity. I deal with drug addicts on a regular basis, many of whom are thieves. I forgive them for their actions, but I don't leave my wallet sitting around where they can take it.

Everyone should understand the difference.

I agree. But I'm sure you notice that they respond to corrections better when they know you are doing it out of forgiveness and love.

Please note, that just because there is unconditional forgiveness on the spiritual level that is unearned but given freely
DOES NOT MEAN
to roll over and take physical abuse and condone wrongful actions to continue!

This is not the meaning of turning the other cheek.

To turn the other cheek means that instead of being slapped backhanded which was reserved for slaves or noncitizens, you ask to be addressed/rebuked as an EQUAL
represented by the forehanded slap on the other cheek.

Nor does this mean we need to slap each other into submission, it is symbolic only.
It means we ask to redress each other as equals (not as adversaries or enemies but
as peers under the law equally, not citizens or masters over slaves or noncitizens
which isn't equal and causes the pecking order politics of trying to subdue or dominate
by either bullying or exclusion)

Now if you are dealing with students who are supposed to be under the teacher's instructions in class, that is where the teacher does have authority to ask the students to be silent in class while the teacher is giving isntructions, as Paul was addressing the women who were students and weren't supposed to be disorderly and disrupting the lesson.

Here, we are equals coming together to share and help each other.

QW where you may be a teacher or expert with experience in one area, and the rest of us should listen with respect, others on here have relative strengths or experience or gifts in other areas where you and I will benefit from listening to them when they are sharing too.

I'm glad you work with thieves and drug addicts, where I understand it is absolutely necessary to "lay down the law" and not accept them testing your authority to try to dismantle the order and disrupt the process of receiving help to break out of past destructive patterns. Though some of us here may exhibit the same rebellion when we feel someone is insulting or imposing unfairly trying to force something on us they aren't doing themselves, this is not fair to treat us the same as you would people who don't know better, because clearly we do. All the people I see on here have expressed having knowledge and can thus receive rebuke as a wise man would. There is no need to treat people as lessers.

The more you treat people as your peers who can take correction as an equal,
and not as an enemy to be rejected and slapped up-side the head verbally,
you will also receive more respect and audience in return, which I believe you deserve.

If I thought people on here would be humbled and need to be slapped around
in order to wake up and knock it off, I know there is a place for that sometimes.
But I see you and people here AREN'T responding to that approach, but are
perfectly capable of discussing grievances and correction thoughtfully in full depth
and detail, so I ask we apply our higher intelligence and ability to take that higher road.

I don't see anyone here as being an enemy, just the divisions in our mind
that may be holding us back until we overcome those and reach a better understanding.

thank you again for explaining, and I would love to hear more about your
experiences and background, QW. I have a friend who has turned around gang members
and wants to work with other ministries and programs to take back the border from all the drug and human trafficking going on that is connected with cults and gangs, etc.

There is TOO MUCH work to do to take back the criminal jsutice system and
really set up programs that turn people's lives around and getting rid of crime and
addiction and abuse, so it is VERY important to work togehter and not waste any
more time fighting, thinking each other is the enemy. We are allies in the same
battle and we need to team up and get the ranks in order if we are going to fight to win!
Not against each other, but against the common enemies, where uniting with God's will through Christ has already won the battle. We are just going through the steps to get there.

Thank you for your outreach work which is very important
to both church and state reform. I pray you will receive even
greater strength and wisdom and more teams of allies to help
you achieve the great purposes God has given for your life.
You have more allies than you may know, that are NOT your enemies.
The divisions separating you from working together are the enemy and
this can and shall be overcome. When we are ready to ask God will lift
the walls and barriers so that all can receive and unite in Christ.
In Jesus name, Amen.

Yours truly,
Love, Emily

 

[emilynghiem]

Well we'll assign the Westboro Baptists to the bad karaoke (or really disgusting rap) section as most of us look at their actions that way. They think they are making music. The rest of us don't hear any music in what they do at all. Well intentioned? I can't say as I've never met a one of them. Cruel, hateful results? Absolutely. But in their minds they are correcting and admonishing others for their sins.

Hmmm maybe mixing rap with bad karaoke would chase Westboro Baptists away from protesting any more military funerals!

Seriously, one of their members DID actually come out and apologize when she realized she was being hurtful, and wanted to reach out to the families she realized were wronged. I thought that was a great first step. Many people were responding with compassion instead of anger at WB, and I think this was an answer to those prayers.

If it only takes one member to save the entire village, maybe she brings hope to explain to the others how to be more effective in rebuking and addressing conflicts directly, concerning govt and military policy, instead of blindly protesting like "clashing cymbals"

If the only hope is to drown out the WB at their own protests, I wrote a song just for doing that. I had posted it on an older thread from last year for "America as the new Flanders" and maybe other places as well:
============================================

How many wars have you seen? Are you a Veteran or a member of the Armed Forces?

I ask because you seem to have some pretty fanciful and romantic notions about war and patriotism.

Dear Old Guy: For a wake up call, why not send the Democrats the bill for the cost of all
the ACA health care insurance, fines and costs that dissenters don't agree to pay,
and send the GOP the bill for the costs to taxpayers of the Iraq War and contracts.
And see who is willing to take responsibility for the cost of the agenda their Party leaders pushed through Congress, eh?

Dear PC: I thought of recording a video for this Anthem I wrote, originally for the Westboro Baptists to outsing them at their own protests (lyrics below). I would like to post it to Victoria Jackson's political website, to reach out to her after I heard she had wept for America after the election results. Now I'm thinking I should change the lyrics to God Save America, since we need all the help we can get to pull together out of this divisive slump, remember our roots and get back to rebuilding the country. (My boyfriend didn't really relate to the lyrics about Muslims and thought I should change it to Christians, what do you think?)

God Hates America

God hates America
Fat lazy slobs
While we split hairs
Over welfare [health care?]
Slaves in Asia
Are taking our jobs

From the handouts
To the bailouts
Leaving us in greater debt
God hates America
And all our Vets
God hates America
And all our Vets!

God hates/[save?] America
Land of the lost
While we protest
Certain Baptists
States are sued
To remove every Cross

Religious freedom
Is for Heathens
If you're Muslim
You're a Putz!

God hates/[save?] America
Cuz we've gone nuts
God hates/[save?] America
Cuz we've gone nuts!

==========================
It could be the best way to shut down the hateful protests is to say
YOU'RE RIGHT!!!
in this case to use reverse psychology and offer to join them!
Yes! America HAS lost it completely and we DESERVE the messed up govt we have! Hooray!

So let's all join and sing a hymn to repent of how horrible we are, how crazy we make ourselves on drugs and medication, and how we deserve to be taken over by the Chinese and drug and human traffickers, while we abuse our precious free speech and democratic
system to shoot each other down and leave our nation divided, in debt, and vulnerable....

Let's join together and give thanks, shall we?
what would WB say to that, if mobs of people joined them at protests to sing in unison
and harmony? (or very bad rap karaoke?)

I think if I got on the mic for 3 seconds, that's all it would take for the WB to beg God to stop, and repent for the rest of their lives...

 

[Derideo_Te]

God is God to me. He always will be. I want to keep His and my relationship the way it has been for 60 years. That is all. I don't want to become afraid of Him. I never have been and don't want to start now at this late stage. My chat under the stars with Him tonight during my prayers for an online friend who is having a rough go with cancer of the throat...I prayed to Him...and then I told Him I was afraid His and my relationship would change if I ate too many apples. In my heart...I knew and felt Him say "it's ok. Move around the book as you feel led" and I was at peace with my decision..and His reaction to it.

I know it sounds crazy. But it really isn't to me.

Sheep need a shepherd to guide them along the treacherous mountain paths to reach the succulent grass on the upper meadows of the mountains. The sprightly mountain goats are nimble enough to find their own way without the help of a shepherd.

Most people need guidance to find their spirituality since they don't really understand what it is and where they need to go to find what they are seeking. But there are a few who are naturally gifted when it comes to spirituality and they find their own path.

You are one of the latter and you followed your own instincts and were true to yourself. In doing so you have discovered what many others are still seeking. You have achieved something rare and very precious. Your friend loves you enough to know that even while you take the time to look at the path that others are following that you know your way back. True love is letting you go. Your friend will always be there for you no matter what because that is what it means to be a friend. Eat as many apples as you like. It won't change anything at all and both you and your friend know that now.

Peace.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

God is God to me. He always will be. I want to keep His and my relationship the way it has been for 60 years. That is all. I don't want to become afraid of Him. I never have been and don't want to start now at this late stage. My chat under the stars with Him tonight during my prayers for an online friend who is having a rough go with cancer of the throat...I prayed to Him...and then I told Him I was afraid His and my relationship would change if I ate too many apples. In my heart...I knew and felt Him say "it's ok. Move around the book as you feel led" and I was at peace with my decision..and His reaction to it.

I know it sounds crazy. But it really isn't to me.

Sheep need a shepherd to guide them along the treacherous mountain paths to reach the succulent grass on the upper meadows of the mountains. The sprightly mountain goats are nimble enough to find their own way without the help of a shepherd.

Most people need guidance to find their spirituality since they don't really understand what it is and where they need to go to find what they are seeking. But there are a few who are naturally gifted when it comes to spirituality and they find their own path.

You are one of the latter and you followed your own instincts and were true to yourself. In doing so you have discovered what many others are still seeking. You have achieved something rare and very precious. Your friend loves you enough to know that even while you take the time to look at the path that others are following that you know your way back. True love is letting you go. Your friend will always be there for you no matter what because that is what it means to be a friend. Eat as many apples as you like. It won't change anything at all and both you and your friend know that now.

Peace.

Shepherds are not there to guide the sheep, they are there to protect the sheep.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Your problem is a failure to comprehend by leaping to idiotic conclusions. You can pray in public all you like. However you cannot co-opt public government meetings and use them to advance your own personal beliefs by forcing others to waste their time waiting while you pray. That you are incapable of understanding this salient point and feel the desperate need to use obscenities while stomping on the rights of others says volumes about what you really are. The mere fact that other Christians here are taking you to task should be warning enough but instead you are blind to both their advice and wisdom.

No, my problem is that you are a whiny little bitch.

You argued that prayer, in and of itself, is offensive, and thus prohibited under the Constitution. I shoved your face in the fact that I get free reign to offend whiny little bitches even in public forums. You then tried to claim that I would get offended and demand the government protect from the prayer of a Satanist. I personally, not being a whiny little bitch, would have no problem if a Satanist got elected to be mayor and started every city council meeting dedicating the proceedings to whatever he thinks Satan is.

Unfortunately, for him, the whiny little bitches would object to that, and force him to comply with what the Supreme Court has ruled is acceptable under those circumstances. The whiny little bitch test has three parts, prayer must have a secular legislative purpose, must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion, and must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion. If you want to try and learn the whiny little bitch test is commonly refereed to as the Lemon test.

The Lemon test rejects your contention. To whit your "generic prayer" does not have any "secular legislative purpose". Since the Lemon Test requires that your "generic prayer" must pass all three aspects it has already failed before you get to the second two aspects. Given your feeble grasp of the bible it is no surprise to discover that you don't understand the law either.

 

[Derideo_Te]

God is God to me. He always will be. I want to keep His and my relationship the way it has been for 60 years. That is all. I don't want to become afraid of Him. I never have been and don't want to start now at this late stage. My chat under the stars with Him tonight during my prayers for an online friend who is having a rough go with cancer of the throat...I prayed to Him...and then I told Him I was afraid His and my relationship would change if I ate too many apples. In my heart...I knew and felt Him say "it's ok. Move around the book as you feel led" and I was at peace with my decision..and His reaction to it.

I know it sounds crazy. But it really isn't to me.

Sheep need a shepherd to guide them along the treacherous mountain paths to reach the succulent grass on the upper meadows of the mountains. The sprightly mountain goats are nimble enough to find their own way without the help of a shepherd.

Most people need guidance to find their spirituality since they don't really understand what it is and where they need to go to find what they are seeking. But there are a few who are naturally gifted when it comes to spirituality and they find their own path.

You are one of the latter and you followed your own instincts and were true to yourself. In doing so you have discovered what many others are still seeking. You have achieved something rare and very precious. Your friend loves you enough to know that even while you take the time to look at the path that others are following that you know your way back. True love is letting you go. Your friend will always be there for you no matter what because that is what it means to be a friend. Eat as many apples as you like. It won't change anything at all and both you and your friend know that now.

Peace.

Shepherds are not there to guide the sheep, they are there to protect the sheep.

shepherd - definition of shepherd by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

shep·herd (shprd)
n.
1. One who herds, guards, and tends sheep.
2. One who cares for and guides a group of people, as a minister or teacher.
3. A German shepherd.
tr.v. shep·herd·ed, shep·herd·ing, shep·herds
To herd, guard, tend, or guide as or in the manner of a shepherd.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Sheep need a shepherd to guide them along the treacherous mountain paths to reach the succulent grass on the upper meadows of the mountains. The sprightly mountain goats are nimble enough to find their own way without the help of a shepherd.

Most people need guidance to find their spirituality since they don't really understand what it is and where they need to go to find what they are seeking. But there are a few who are naturally gifted when it comes to spirituality and they find their own path.

You are one of the latter and you followed your own instincts and were true to yourself. In doing so you have discovered what many others are still seeking. You have achieved something rare and very precious. Your friend loves you enough to know that even while you take the time to look at the path that others are following that you know your way back. True love is letting you go. Your friend will always be there for you no matter what because that is what it means to be a friend. Eat as many apples as you like. It won't change anything at all and both you and your friend know that now.

Peace.

Shepherds are not there to guide the sheep, they are there to protect the sheep.

shepherd - definition of shepherd by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

shep·herd (shprd)
n.
1. One who herds, guards, and tends sheep.
2. One who cares for and guides a group of people, as a minister or teacher.
3. A German shepherd.
tr.v. shep·herd·ed, shep·herd·ing, shep·herds
To herd, guard, tend, or guide as or in the manner of a shepherd.

I can do colors too.

Interesting.

 

[emilynghiem]

Hi Gracie: I appreciate your honesty and transparency in sharing your deepest thoughts and process. That speaks to courage and faith to be that open with talking about things.

Your honesty in what you say and see is actually a strength, not a weakness,
because being true is what sets us free. As Shakespeare said,
being true to ourselves, we cannot then be false to others.
Instead we invite and make it safe for others to share honestly also, so we overcome fear as we work together.

You may be so sensitive that some of the fears you feel are coming from things in your past or from people around you. So the more knowledge and answers you find, you won't be as afraid to look at where these are coming from and find peace in resolving them.
Taking it step by step, God will guide us in exploring and enjoying changes as we heal and grow together, so there is less and less to fear. We ask help to understand and it will come.

Thank you, Gracie, and I pray you find more of the answers
and wisdom which help you to feel more at peace with your
spiritual process of growth and change as positive and rewarding.

Take care, take heart, and take courage!
Thank you for sharing!
Love, Emily

God is God to me. He always will be. I want to keep His and my relationship the way it has been for 60 years. That is all. I don't want to become afraid of Him. I never have been and don't want to start now at this late stage. My chat under the stars with Him tonight during my prayers for an online friend who is having a rough go with cancer of the throat...I prayed to Him...and then I told Him I was afraid His and my relationship would change if I ate too many apples. In my heart...I knew and felt Him say "it's ok. Move around the book as you feel led" and I was at peace with my decision..and His reaction to it.

I know it sounds crazy. But it really isn't to me.

I was discussing issues of "fear" and forgiveness/unforgiveness with a friend, in sharing notes and ideas. I am used to framing things in terms of what can be forgiven or resolved that explains how we act in the present (or react to the past and not always open to change in the future). My friend frames everything in terms of confronting "fear/stress/anxiety."

So here is how I connected the two systems together, which makes sense to me:
I was saying that fear has three basic forms:
1. fear of the unknown/ignorance
2. fear of change or loss of control, especially to outside influences or authority
3. fear of conflict or confrontation with others
So if we know what we are afraid of, and someone else is, we can work through
our fears and differences and overcome that with "knowledge and understanding"
which casts out the fear. to love is to understand, so love of truth or wisdom (which God represents) trumps fear of the unknown (which Satan plays with to manipulate and divide)

I notice these three levels are counteracted by the positive things represented in the trinity
1. Satan is the opposite of God
(where God's love and truth conquers fear or ignorance and lack of faith because of this)
2. Antichrist is the opposite of Christ
(true government and consistent authority of law overcomes false government and abuses;
so justice trumps injustice, changing ourselves to be more just empowers us and replaces fear of others being unjust to force change or control; taking responsibility for the law displaces fear of other people having more power to abuse laws to oppress or impose injustice, etc.)
3. Holy Spirit is the opposite of False Prophet
(healing spirit of grace and comfort overcomes hate speech and false teaching to divide
by sowing ill will and unforgiveness which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit instead of charity in relations, sharing words of wisdom love and mercy to bring reconciliation and healing, peace and justice)
so whenever you feel you are influenced by the "negative opposing forces" on these three levels, then it helps to focus on the positive parts of the trinity which overcome each of them.

Now my friend was focusing on "fear/stress/anxiety" which I relate to this way:
1. FEAR starts with the individual heart/mind, where we lack faith or understanding
so we become vulnerable by our ignorance and fear of what we don't fully know
2. if this fear is not resolved, it is projected onto our personal relations with others
which causes STRESS (in relation to others and to circumstances around us)
3. and if stress is not resolved in our relationship with others, then it becomes repeated or multiplied to replicate in society which causes ANXIETY collectively from humanity in general
(often to the point we cannot easily tell where the feelings are coming from
and where to direct our energy or focus to resolve them, because it's all mixed together)

So that is why I focus on trying to "forgive" whatever unresolved issues affect on these
levels, and work "backward" to get to specific things that we can address comfortably:
1. individually
2. in relationship with others
3. collectively as groups or with society/humanity as a whole
if we break it down into steps we can address, one by one,
it's not so "scary" to go through spiritual changes of resolving these issues.
In fact, the more we can handle and share with others, the more we can ENJOY
the challenges as positive in discovering where and why problems are happening and how to
resolve them. So we no longer have "fear of fear" which goes in circles. Perfect love breaks through that, and especially forgiveness, by asking God's help to break through and free us.

In general, I explain the trinity as "reflecting" the relationship between us and God.
Between the individual person and the spiritual collective level of all people, all truth, and all things in the universe/God's creation and all the love and energy joining us as one.
And what connects us, with each other and also with the higher collective level,
is what Jesus Christ represents, as the intersection which we feel by conscience.
So Jesus Christ is the center, where the laws of man or human nature/natural laws of the physical world and the divine laws of God or spiritual/universal laws, are joined as one in harmony and peace and fulfilled in the spirit of truth justice and peace for all humanity.

People represent their views in different ways, but I have always found this same pattern repeating, in each religion or system of laws/beliefs, and even with friends of mine with secular or personal philosophies in life. Because we are all human beings with "body/mind/spirit" where our human nature "is made in the image of God" and reflects these same 3 levels: Something that represents the individual/physical level, something that represents the collective or spiritual level greater than us, and some level of laws or conscience that joins these two levels together in relationship, where we try to make peace.

[a Buddhist documentary on PBS explained the key to overcoming 3 sources of suffering as:
1. wisdom overcoming ignorance
2. compassion overcoming anger
3. generosity overcoming greed
a secular humanist friend of mine summarized his philosophy in life as
1. respect for truth
2. respect for freedom
3. respect for people and the environment

so you can see the similar parallels and connection between:
dealing with ourselves and our own individual understanding and unique perception,
dealing with our relations with others, where both people bring their issues to the table, and dealing with collective society/humanity/spirituality as a whole where we're in it together.
human nature is universal, and so are the laws governing our relations; we just express this in diverse ways because each of us is unique as well as our personal/cultural experiences. there is no need to fear differences or changes in our knowledge because it connects up!]

 

[emilynghiem]

Christ used the analogy of a body...there are different parts that all work together to create the whole.

Yes, I like that! Reminds me of a discussion I had with a Bahai student.
if the Christian church was like the heart pumping to circulate spiritually through the body,
are the Buddhists the lungs that focus on breathing in the air? Who are the arms and the legs? Are the people doing deliverance serving as the liver to clean out the yucky toxins?

I also saw symbolism in the colors of the political parties.
if the blue veins are the ones bringing in the grievances from all areas to be addressed as the needs to be met, and the red arteries are the ones circulating oxygen down to the cells.
So you don't want to waste the resources and overpump in areas and either hemorrhage or bleed out; nor do you want to deny blood flow where cells/tissues/organs are dying out, but the flow has to be natural, and not build up unnaturally to excess while lacking in others.
It has to be sustainable, and in balance, where the veins/arteries work together in harmony.

As for church and state in general, I see these as collective symbols of authority
where people project their patterns and perceptions of mothers/fathers,
husbands/wives, men/women, etc. So if people have unresolved conflicts or power/control issues regarding personal relations, it shows in our religious/political beliefs, where we have faith and where we don't; and the more we make peace in our relations around us, then we will see healthier balanced working relations in these collective institutions as well, which are a reflection globally of whatever we do locally. So both the local/individual actions influence the collective level and vice versa. Any change we take on ourselves, impacts the global.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear DT and QW: to try to focus on just the points of the actual argument

A. RE praying in public vs. praying during govt meetings at taxpayers expense

If the people at the meeting have agreed in advance to include some religious invocation, for example, then this is not imposing or excluding someone discriminatorily.

If your issue is tax money paying for something, that should be worked out in advance
with each instance or group so this issue does not come up. People waste time at meeting
debating things that could have been resolved in advance, not just with religion.

It could be just as imposing to make some blanket rule and impose on everyone
just because one person has a problem with it. So this should be resolve at the start, not wait for issues to come up and then try to scramble to make one rule fit all cases to stop it.

If it is not imposing a religious oath of office type requirement that is unfair, or imposing a bias on policy that discriminates or causes conflicts with people's beliefs, most people are
okay with minor things like a Bible or Crucifix/Nativity Scene that isn't necessarily imposing.

If someone has an issue, I believe that should be addressed and resolved where NO ONE is imposed upon including the people being complained about. the parties should be treated equally, not taking secularism as the default and targeting religion/Christianity etc. as the offense, for example. Both views and opinions equally belong to the people respectively and should be equally represented included and protected by resolving any conflicts mutually.

Your problem is a failure to comprehend by leaping to idiotic conclusions. You can pray in public all you like. However you cannot co-opt public government meetings and use them to advance your own personal beliefs by forcing others to waste their time waiting while you pray. That you are incapable of understanding this salient point and feel the desperate need to use obscenities while stomping on the rights of others says volumes about what you really are. The mere fact that other Christians here are taking you to task should be warning enough but instead you are blind to both their advice and wisdom.

No, my problem is that you are a whiny little bitch.

You argued that prayer, in and of itself, is offensive, and thus prohibited under the Constitution. I shoved your face in the fact that I get free reign to offend whiny little bitches even in public forums. You then tried to claim that I would get offended and demand the government protect from the prayer of a Satanist. I personally, not being a whiny little bitch, would have no problem if a Satanist got elected to be mayor and started every city council meeting dedicating the proceedings to whatever he thinks Satan is.

Unfortunately, for him, the whiny little bitches would object to that, and force him to comply with what the Supreme Court has ruled is acceptable under those circumstances. The whiny little bitch test has three parts, prayer must have a secular legislative purpose, must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion, and must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion. If you want to try and learn the whiny little bitch test is commonly refereed to as the Lemon test.

QW:
1. I agree that prayer per se is not banned by the Constitution, but is included under free exercise of religion, with the check and balance being that no one is excluded or discriminated against; so any disagreements should be resolved mutually by the parties.

In that context of agreement, people are free to include or exclude; but I agree it is wrong to take one view and say that is the default. I don't think DT was trying to do this. DT was trying to be fair and express some grievance about taxpaid time used on prayer, etc. If DT disagrees with that, it should be taken up case by case and resolved among the parties affected, not make a blanket rule beyond that which may not apply to all cases and isn't fair.

2. as for the Satanist thing, I agree that you are right to be consistent with your policy to allow prayer for all the same way you would allow for yourself*; and that DT should also be consistent with the policy of not funding any prayer of any kind. So to each his own. When you are part of a group and all members agree you do it your way; and same with DT.
People are free to manage their groups as works and represents them; I believe schools could either have students take turns doing different presentations, or work together to create a program that represents everyone in the school body or community, instead of banning altogether, and at the very least have a mediation process to address/resolve things.

* I happen to disagree because some forms of prayer such as witchcraft/satanic demonism or negative spiritualism/sorcery or voodoo use dangerous energy that clashes with positive thoughts/prayer to create disruption; I believe this can be proven scientifically so it does not have to pushed religiously against Constitutional laws. I believe this can and should be resolved by free choice and informed consent not force, to prevent conflicts not impose them.

3. and about any lemon test for WLB or whatever,
I am more concerned we reach a fair agreement what constitutes free exercise of religion or respecting an establishment of religion; what is the "essence" of either discriminating against views/beliefs abusing govt authority/resources to do so, or pushing/imposing a bias. Does any prayer or religious practice/representation at all on public property or time cause an imposition or not?

Instead of only restricting "religion" to "organized or recognized" collective affiliations,
I find it more important to include EVERYONE'S beliefs (even secular or political) equally as you would someone's religious beliefs, and mediate to resolve any conflict before making policy. THAT does affect everyone, where issues of prayer/crosses may not.

This is idealistic, I know, but taking that degree of caution and commitment to INCLUDE, and not discriminate against people in the minority who have different views or beliefs, is important in enforcing laws consistently. I think this would end the trend of bullying by coercion or exclusion if we started enforcing that level of consensus which represents/includes all views. I believe the solutions we would create by hearing all input when forming policies would be superior, in respecting public consent and representing diverse interests, rather than compromising for whichever group yells louder or who has more resources/influence.

Sustainable ethical solutions which satisfy the parties grievances would be welcome and easier to enforce instead of fighting divisive politics over funding and support we have now.

There would not be imposition of church policy on the state or the state on the church where people form solutions to resolve grievances and conflicts without compromising either.
I support and believe this as more constitutionally inclusive and consistent with equal protections, due process and representation of growing diversity among the greater population.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Shepherds are not there to guide the sheep, they are there to protect the sheep.

shepherd - definition of shepherd by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

shep·herd (shprd)
n.
1. One who herds, guards, and tends sheep.
2. One who cares for and guides a group of people, as a minister or teacher.
3. A German shepherd.
tr.v. shep·herd·ed, shep·herd·ing, shep·herds
To herd, guard, tend, or guide as or in the manner of a shepherd.

I can do colors too.

Interesting.

Too bad you can't do honesty instead.

 

[emilynghiem]

Too bad you can't do honesty instead.

???

DT, I find it more than clear that QW answered quite honestly!

Even stated the reasons interpretations and objections with various responses,
and explained more about having background experience working
with rough types of people, where it is necessary to lay down the law
and not tolerate any sign of disrespect,
even if overdoing it (as I agree is not needed here but detracted from valuable discussion).

I like it better if we can steer away from personal jabs and keep going in this
direction of focusing on the actual points that I find interesting and critical to political reform.

You and QW are the first people I have seen bring up points such
as the prayer at meetings being co-opted abuse of public funds (never heard that
before, only objection to the prayer itself as religious and exclusive of certain groups)
and the point about prayer not being banned but must be kept open to all
denominations in order to be open to any of them (I heard that the laws do not,
ban nativity scenes, for example, but allow equally for ANY religious display; so as long as it is not restricted to just allowing specific religious groups while exluding others, this is not discrimination and not illegal or banned)

But QW is the first person I heard actually state this, in some form, so I thought that was interesting. Most people DO just target the Christians (or the Christians target the Muslims)
and just go after what is convenient for them and fits their particular bias or agenda.

As for govt resources being wasted on religiously biased things,
DT, do you mind if I pick your brain a little? Since you and QW are coming from other
angles I have not seen before, what do you think of THIS argument:

I find people religiously for and against the death penalty.
I find a distinct religious difference between people who believe in, support, or
advocate for retributive justice vs people who favor restorative justice or either
believe in both, or one and not the other, etc.

If you are concerned about not wasting public resources on things that not all people
agree to pay for, but many oppose on religious grounds, are you equally for
"separating church and state" and separating resources/authority/jurisdiction
for people who DO and who DON'T believe in funding capital punishment but
rather prefer to fund and support restitution and rehab programs by restorative justice that
helps both the offenders, victims and survivors to heal spiritually after murder
and other violent or capital crimes, etc.

Are you opposed to states spending billions of dollars on capital punishment,
including added costs in the millions to even the prosecution of the case if the death penalty is pursued, when people disagree religious about this issue of whether the
state has authority to judge and terminate life on the basis of court findings of
guilt and innocence and whether someone is a danger to society without equally giving
the option of funding programs for life in prison and/or working to paying back restitution for the damages and costs to society and taxpayers incurred by the crime and aftermath.

What is your take on that?

Note: I believe if people don't want to fund the death penalty why not fund a prison exchange program where convicts agree to forfeit their citizenship and go work in a labor camp to replace sweatshop workers and work for life to pay restitution to victims and society in proportion to the damages and debts they incurred with their crimes. this solution could solve both the criminal justice problems and the immigration problems, where workers who are law-abiding switch places and receive guest visas or residency as work-study students in exchange for people forfeiting their citizenship for committing premeditated capital crimes such as robbery with abuse of firearms, rape, murder or other violence instead of getting help for their addictions or criminal illness etc. So this would encourage people to come forward and cooperate with authorities fully if they want to serve their time as US citizens,
whereas if they fail to cooperate they risk losing their citizenship while working for restitution.
Something like that. I believe restorative justice should be a separate but equal option to accommodate people of both views, and offer both choices equally, so the authorities can still negotiate with offenders and compel them to work out the best way to answer for crime.

Especially if the death penalty is involved, I believe this is a religious/spiritual matter, and should be decided by consensus of the people affected; so if the victims/survivors of a capital crime want restitution another way and don't want the death penalty, I believe this is important for their spiritual healing and right to due process and should be accounted for.
Likewise if people believe in the death penalty, this needs to be set up to begin with where there is agreement, and not wait until after a murder occurs to find out people disagree! We waste a lot of resources fighting political and legally over this, while those resources coudl be focused on helping survivors and also preventing murder, violence, addiction and crimes to begin with by addressing the causes and cures for criminal illness, abuse and addiction.
So I have a real problem with this not being resolved, but costing resources and lives while the system is not correcting causes of homicidal crime but spending billions after the fact.

I am more concerned about the "billions of dollars" wasted on failed prisons that don't cure people of criminal illness, that could go into expanding medical education, health care and service programs to help BOTH the criminally and mentally ill and serve the general public health at the same time with those same resources, more than the time wasted by opening a meeting with prayer which seems miniscule in comparison.

So as conscientious as you are about principle, where even the prayer issue concerns you, I am hoping you are equally consistent and concerned about differences in religious practice by the state that could be addressed to stop the waste of billions of dollars in comparison.

Can we discuss this? I would like to hear QW's take on criminal justice also, given the responses that favor the more retributive justice approach while I favor restorative justice. QW way of retribution can spell disaster for people who prefer to resolve conflict and share responsibility for corre cting wrongs directly; while my way is easily abused by people who NEED to be "slapped up-side the head" as people who bully and rebel sometimes need to be put in their place by a bigger bully. I am not suited for that role or circumstance, as QW is; so both approaches are necessary, in respective situations, but must be applied appropriately or it is disastrous to get them in reverse! What do you think?

Since you brought up the issue of not wasting public resources on something religiously biased or based,
do you include the death penalty as another example of the same or similar problem.

 

[Foxfyre]

Emily didn't direct her question to me, but historically, laws involving crime and punishment, from a Christian perspective, have been far more focused on consequences rather than vengeance, at least up until the last several decades in which, in my opinion, civil rights have been twisted and manipulated for sometimes less than justifiable reasons.

But how it should work, if we are to be a people of law, is that the rules are set down for how society shall conduct itself so that all rights are protected. If you litter, there is a prescribed consequence for being convicted of that act. If you speed in your automobile, there is a prescribed consequence for being convicted of that act. If you rob a bank, there is a prescribed consequence for being convicted of that act, etc. And if you commit the most cruel, senseless, unconscionable crimes against humanity, there is a prescxribed consequence for being convicted of that act. And some advocate the death penalty as being the ultimate consequence for certain kinds of terrible crimes.

There was a time when the less dangerous convicted criminals were assigned to work details and did hard physical labor working on roads or other projects that were beneficial to society as a whole. This seemed just as compensation for the cost to society for enforcing the consequences for certain kinds of crime. The social do-gooders though now object to this kind of forced labor as cruel and inhumane or degrading or demeaning and have put a stop to a lot of it.

I had an occasion to visit with a young man incarcerated in our local detention center. He had just returned from a detail in which the prisoners when out to pick up trash along the roadways. I asked him if he liked doing that. He shrugged and said he volunteered for it. It was better being out in the sunshine than it was sitting around in the jail.

But then I am one who think welfare recipients should be doing some community service in return for their welfare check and who have no problem with prisoners working for the room and board provided to them. This is, as it were, the Christian way.

 

[Foxfyre]

As for the shepherd analogy, the concept surfaces in many ways. In the story of Cain and Abel, for instance, when Cain was asked about the whereabouts of his brother, he responded, "Am I my brother's keeper?" That phrase has been oft used by those who justify government social services as the "Christian" way and something we should all contribute to.

The literal translation though put being a 'keeper' of one's brother in a negative light. The 'keeper' of the flocks of sheep and goats was the Shepherd who took authority and ruled over them, was responsible for protecting them, herding them to suitable pastures, and having complete authority to determine their fate whether that was a blood sacrifice, or provider of wool or baby animals, or Sunday dinner. To refer to one's brother as one who should be 'kept' was to lower him to the status of the animals and would not be something anybody would aspire to.

The Shepherd motif is found through the Bible, however, and is used in varous ways. One of the most commonly known is found in both Matthew and Luke:

The Parable of the Lost Sheep (Luke 15 NIV)

15 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”

3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Too bad you can't do honesty instead.

???

DT, I find it more than clear that QW answered quite honestly!

A person of integrity would have admitted that they were wrong about shepherds being guides when provided with an unimpeachable 3rd party source. DW not only failed to admit that he was wrong (mistaken, ignorant, whatever) and instead attempted to deflect attention with an utterly irrelevant remark about the use of color. That spoke volumes about his lack of honesty and I held him accountable for it.

Even stated the reasons interpretations and objections with various responses,
and explained more about having background experience working
with rough types of people, where it is necessary to lay down the law
and not tolerate any sign of disrespect,
even if overdoing it (as I agree is not needed here but detracted from valuable discussion).

I like it better if we can steer away from personal jabs and keep going in this
direction of focusing on the actual points that I find interesting and critical to political reform.

You and QW are the first people I have seen bring up points such
as the prayer at meetings being co-opted abuse of public funds (never heard that
before, only objection to the prayer itself as religious and exclusive of certain groups)
and the point about prayer not being banned but must be kept open to all
denominations in order to be open to any of them (I heard that the laws do not,
ban nativity scenes, for example, but allow equally for ANY religious display; so as long as it is not restricted to just allowing specific religious groups while exluding others, this is not discrimination and not illegal or banned)

But QW is the first person I heard actually state this, in some form, so I thought that was interesting. Most people DO just target the Christians (or the Christians target the Muslims)
and just go after what is convenient for them and fits their particular bias or agenda.

As for govt resources being wasted on religiously biased things,
DT, do you mind if I pick your brain a little? Since you and QW are coming from other
angles I have not seen before, what do you think of THIS argument:

I find people religiously for and against the death penalty.
I find a distinct religious difference between people who believe in, support, or
advocate for retributive justice vs people who favor restorative justice or either
believe in both, or one and not the other, etc.

If you are concerned about not wasting public resources on things that not all people
agree to pay for, but many oppose on religious grounds, are you equally for
"separating church and state" and separating resources/authority/jurisdiction
for people who DO and who DON'T believe in funding capital punishment but
rather prefer to fund and support restitution and rehab programs by restorative justice that
helps both the offenders, victims and survivors to heal spiritually after murder
and other violent or capital crimes, etc.

Are you opposed to states spending billions of dollars on capital punishment,
including added costs in the millions to even the prosecution of the case if the death penalty is pursued, when people disagree religious about this issue of whether the
state has authority to judge and terminate life on the basis of court findings of
guilt and innocence and whether someone is a danger to society without equally giving
the option of funding programs for life in prison and/or working to paying back restitution for the damages and costs to society and taxpayers incurred by the crime and aftermath.

What is your take on that?

Note: I believe if people don't want to fund the death penalty why not fund a prison exchange program where convicts agree to forfeit their citizenship and go work in a labor camp to replace sweatshop workers and work for life to pay restitution to victims and society in proportion to the damages and debts they incurred with their crimes. this solution could solve both the criminal justice problems and the immigration problems, where workers who are law-abiding switch places and receive guest visas or residency as work-study students in exchange for people forfeiting their citizenship for committing premeditated capital crimes such as robbery with abuse of firearms, rape, murder or other violence instead of getting help for their addictions or criminal illness etc. So this would encourage people to come forward and cooperate with authorities fully if they want to serve their time as US citizens,
whereas if they fail to cooperate they risk losing their citizenship while working for restitution.
Something like that. I believe restorative justice should be a separate but equal option to accommodate people of both views, and offer both choices equally, so the authorities can still negotiate with offenders and compel them to work out the best way to answer for crime.

Especially if the death penalty is involved, I believe this is a religious/spiritual matter, and should be decided by consensus of the people affected; so if the victims/survivors of a capital crime want restitution another way and don't want the death penalty, I believe this is important for their spiritual healing and right to due process and should be accounted for.
Likewise if people believe in the death penalty, this needs to be set up to begin with where there is agreement, and not wait until after a murder occurs to find out people disagree! We waste a lot of resources fighting political and legally over this, while those resources coudl be focused on helping survivors and also preventing murder, violence, addiction and crimes to begin with by addressing the causes and cures for criminal illness, abuse and addiction.
So I have a real problem with this not being resolved, but costing resources and lives while the system is not correcting causes of homicidal crime but spending billions after the fact.

I am more concerned about the "billions of dollars" wasted on failed prisons that don't cure people of criminal illness, that could go into expanding medical education, health care and service programs to help BOTH the criminally and mentally ill and serve the general public health at the same time with those same resources, more than the time wasted by opening a meeting with prayer which seems miniscule in comparison.

So as conscientious as you are about principle, where even the prayer issue concerns you, I am hoping you are equally consistent and concerned about differences in religious practice by the state that could be addressed to stop the waste of billions of dollars in comparison.

Can we discuss this? I would like to hear QW's take on criminal justice also, given the responses that favor the more retributive justice approach while I favor restorative justice. QW way of retribution can spell disaster for people who prefer to resolve conflict and share responsibility for corre cting wrongs directly; while my way is easily abused by people who NEED to be "slapped up-side the head" as people who bully and rebel sometimes need to be put in their place by a bigger bully. I am not suited for that role or circumstance, as QW is; so both approaches are necessary, in respective situations, but must be applied appropriately or it is disastrous to get them in reverse! What do you think?

Since you brought up the issue of not wasting public resources on something religiously biased or based,
do you include the death penalty as another example of the same or similar problem.

Tax dollars are secular.
Religious organizations are exempt from paying taxes.
Both of those facts are indisputable.

When the prior administration attempted to institute "faith based iniatives" funded with tax dollars they failed miserably. The reason for their failure was not because of any protests from Atheists but rather religious organizations refused the funds on the basis that they would not be able to preach their message while using secular tax dollars. From the above you can see that even from a religious perspective the use of government funding has serious implications as far as what is and isn't allowed.

The oath of office for any government position has no religious aspect whatsoever. It is merely an oath to uphold the constitution. This is not "one nation under God" either. For anyone becoming a US citizen there is no religious requirement. The CINS allows new citizens to exclude the the phrase "under God" when they say the pledge of allegiance.

There is no such thing as a "secular prayer".

Prayer - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

All forms of prayer are religious in nature. For any government official acting in that capacity to lead a prayer is a violation of the 1st Amendment.

These are also indisputable facts.

The only instances where it can be deemed "appropriate" are when there are meetings between government officials and religious leaders for the express purpose of solving common problems. Even then it should not be the government officials who would be leading the prayers.

So having established that there is clearly a separation of tax dollars and faith your capital punishment question can be addressed. From a moral perspective of right or wrong there are both pro and con arguments to be found in the bible regarding capital punishment. Neither arguments are persuasive enough to be definitive in my opinion.

The death penalty is not a religious matter but one of retribution instead. It has been established that the death penalty is not a deterrent to anyone intending to commit a capital crime. The current legal system is such that the cost of executing someone exceeds the cost of incarcerating them for life. In addition the current legal system is flawed in that innocent people do end up on death row. Once executed there is no remedy for anyone subsequently found to be innocent. From a purely pragmatic standpoint the death penalty is ineffective and cost prohibitive. From a personal perspective it should be reserved for only those whose crimes are so heinous (Bundy, McVeigh, etc.) and whose guilt is established beyond any doubt whatsoever that they no longer deserve to remain alive more than a single day after sentence is passed. The sentence should then be carried out the following day.

The problem of homicidal crime is another matter entirely and belongs in a different forum. Suffice to say that there is a paucity of hard statistical evidence as to the causes. However this link might give you some idea of what might be done about reducing the incidence. If you wish to discuss this topic any further though it is probably wiser to start another thread.

Gun Free - Latest gun related facts and figures

 

[Derideo_Te]

Add *ironic* to the tome of words you and hollie don't understand.

You are nothing but an empty vessel. Have a nice day.

Dear DT: Maybe Koshergirl's spiritual role and gifts are different, would you consider that?

I understand what she is saying trying to warn of demons and negative influences that are muddling what people are trying to say. Even if she does not have gifts for addressing these, maybe her role is to judge and point out some of these negatives from the positives. Sometimes having an empty or more objective less engaged position helps with that process.
Maybe she is here to help in other ways. And we are here to help her in return, since obviously we have different knowledge and perspectives. Can we use this to our advantage?

KG has openly admitted that she is only interested in taunting and mocking. Given the meaningless drivel she posts there is no reason to doubt her intentions. Unlike you and Foxy she has neither the willingness nor the intellect to engage in a meaningful exchange of ideas. Until there is some sign that she intends to reform her behavior she will be treated accordingly.