Brittney Griner is gay and Baptist's don't seem to care.

[koshergrl]

Membership is voted on. We vote for each person who asks to become a member, as a congregation. A gay couple that refuses to renounce the sin of homosexuality, I don't know. The whole point of being Christian, and Baptist, is to renounce sin. If you aren't going to renounce sin, then what's the point? So probably not, just because a homosexual couple that embraces their homosexuality and lives in sin openly is not renouncing sin, and probably not ready to join the ranks.

That doesn't mean we'd toss them from the pews or ban them from Sunday school. But when people who are in the midst of a sinful lifestyle come into the church and demand to be placed in places of leadership, I think most people question their motives. You can't dilute the message.

 

[Oldguy]

I have yet to have anyone in my church condemn gay people. In fact we were discussing it in Bible study this weekend; that we are to be inclusive and welcoming to ALL people..we all sin and have our vices, nobody would want any of us in the church if we all had to wear our vices on the outside.

I haven't experienced hypocrisy within the church. I have yet to see a church drive out a homosexual member, or demand they not participate in church activities. A homosexual wouldn't be able to function as a deacon or minister, but that's because there are strict guidelines to who exactly is named a church leader....people who are openly in the midst of sin aren't typically going to be sought out.

But a sports team? None of the churches I've been in would reject a player because she is homosexual. That just isn't what the southern baptist church is about. We go to the most depraved spots in the nation and plant churches...we don't kick out sinners, we welcome them.

Here's what I'm talking about. This is the resolution we passed last year at the annual meeting in New Orleans. I say "we" because I was there as a messenger, though I did not vote for it.

Why? It's simple: WE may see it as "standing up for God," but THEY will see it as a personal attack which makes reaching them with the Gospel that much harder. They don't see us a representing Christ, but as representing bigotry and judgementalism. If you don't think so, go ask them.

The point being that Jesus Christ never told us to take public positions on political issues (which this is, though couched in Biblical terms). He never told us to organize protests or write letters to the editor or pass resolutions representing the whole denomination. In fact, He never even spoke out against the laws of perhaps the most evil government in history, Rome, even when given the opportunity to do so. He told us to be good citizens and submit to the government, not fight it. Paul did the same thing and submitted to the law even to the point of death.

And, both Jesus and Paul told us what to do: Preach the Gospel AND NOTHING ELSE.

When we pass resolutions like this, we shoot our own evangelism efforts in the foot and I think it's past time for the SBC to decide which is most important to us: Is it to do the work Christ commanded us to do in the Great Commission, or is to to stroll through the marketplace showing everybody how "righteous" we are and how unrighteous they are, like a pack of modern-day Pharisees?

Then, after we've passed a resolution like this one and later find that we remained totally silent as an openly gay player led our favorite university to a national championship, we look like what we are: Hypocrites.

I'm not suggesting that we should have condemned Ms. Griner and kicked her off the squad. I'm suggesting we ought to quit passing resolutions like this one and get on with the business of doing what Christ told us to do.

Whereas the Bible teaches that God is the author of marriage, and that he established marriage as an act between a male and female (Mt. 19:4-6),

Whereas the Apostle Paul affirmed that marriage of a man to a woman is patterned after that relationship of Christ to his church (Eph. 5:22-27),

Whereas marriage is an institution established by God rather than simply a human social construction,

Whereas the Scriptures indicate that all sexual behavior outside of marriage is sinful,

Whereas homosexual behavior is sinful, including what tis current age calls “same-sex civil unions” and “same-sex marriage,”

Whereas the Southern Baptist Convention has a long history of affirming marriage between one man and one woman,

Whereas, the Southern Baptist Convention previously recognized, “Redefining the concept and legality of marriage to mean anything other than the union between one man and one woman would fundamentally undermine the historic and biblical foundation of a healthy society (Genesis 1:28; 2:24; Matthew 19:4-6),” and “equating same-sex relationships with heterosexual marriage would create a host of religious liberty and freedom of conscience conflicts; now, therefore, be it” (SBC Resolution “On Protecting The Defense Of Marriage Act (doma),” June 2011),

Whereas the sitting President of the United States previously formally certified a repeal of the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” policy, allowing for public recognition of homosexual persons in the military, instead of honoring Article 125 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice which precludes homosexual behavior among active service personnel,

Whereas the President now has publically voiced his personal support of same-sex civil unions, and that the legal approval of such unions is a matter for each individual state of our country to decide,

Whereas support of same-sex civil unions has been portrayed as a Civil Rights issue akin to the overturning of slavery and security of equal treatment under the law of African Americans,

Be it resolved that the messengers reaffirm our historic and consistent support of the biblical definition of marriage as the exclusive union of a man and a woman; and be it further,

Resolved, that we encourage individual churches to engage the culture with redemptive acts that will portray Christ’ love toward all members of society, and be it further,

Resolved, that we stand against any form of gay-bashing, hateful rhetoric, or hate-incited actions toward persons who engage in acts of homosexuality; and be it further,

Resolved, that we urge the individual governors of each of the states not yet legally supporting same-sex civil unions to refrain from signing into law any bill that would affirm such unions and/or define such unions as “marriage;” and be it further,

Resolved, that we oppose any attempt to frame same-sex union as a civil rights issue; and be it further,

Resolved, that we reject the notion that race, as a by-product of birth given by the Creator’s design, and gender-orientation, as a behavioral choice made by individual persons, are to be compared as equal social issues, or that acceptance of the equality of races necessitates the equality of sexual preferences, and be it further,

Resolved that we encourage Southern Baptists everywhere to fight for the civil rights and human rights of all people where such rights are consistent with the righteousness of God, and be it further,

Resolved that we affirm that pastors should preach the truth of God’s word on marriage, homosexual behavior, purity, and love with all boldness and without fear of reprisal, and be it further,

Resolved that we proclaim that Christ offers forgiveness for homosexual behavior for those who turn from their homosexuality and believe on Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

 

[Oldguy]

I have yet to have anyone in my church condemn gay people. In fact we were discussing it in Bible study this weekend; that we are to be inclusive and welcoming to ALL people..we all sin and have our vices, nobody would want any of us in the church if we all had to wear our vices on the outside.

I haven't experienced hypocrisy within the church. I have yet to see a church drive out a homosexual member, or demand they not participate in church activities. A homosexual wouldn't be able to function as a deacon or minister, but that's because there are strict guidelines to who exactly is named a church leader....people who are openly in the midst of sin aren't typically going to be sought out.

But a sports team? None of the churches I've been in would reject a player because she is homosexual. That just isn't what the southern baptist church is about. We go to the most depraved spots in the nation and plant churches...we don't kick out sinners, we welcome them.

Yes. Most individual congregations are more than open to welcoming sinners of all kinds, but when the collective membership passes resolutions like the one I posted above, we're all seen as bigots.

What astonishes me is how the Convention can be made up of such wonderful, loving people, but when each of those congregations send messengers to the annual meeting, resolutions like that one are the result. Is somebody with an agenda packing the annual meeting or something? Why does what comes out of the annual meeting not reflect the majority of Southern Baptist's?

 

[koshergrl]

Except it doesn't matter how THEY see it. You present the message and you trust to God to open their ears. You preach the gospel. The gospel tells us to SIN NO MORE.

 

[koshergrl]

You worry too much about how people view us. The bible tells us quite specifically that we will be viewed with suspicion, fear, that we will be hated and ridiculed. It's the way it is, and it isn't our place to *adjust* our message to accomodate the world.

 

[Oldguy]

I doubt OG's baptist affiliation because as a Baptist, he should know that a condemnation of homosexuality is simply a condemnation of a sin that the world is attempting to normalize.

You can doubt all you want, but I've been a Southern Baptist all my adult life. Sorry if I don't fit the "mold."

(Actually...I'm not sorry at all.)

 

[Sunni Man]

Question for Oldguy.

If a gay man walked into your Church holding hands with his live in boyfriend and stated that he wanted to become an active member of your Church and help teach kids in Sunday school.

Would you allow him as practicing homosexual to join your Church and be allowed to help teach children's Sunday school classes?

 

[kwc57]

Brittney Griner, who led the Lady Bears basketball team of Baylor University to a national title last year is openly lesbian. And, she has been since the 9th grade. Baylor, as you know, is a private Baptist university.

Every year, we Baptist's pass some kind of resolution at our annual meeting condemning homosexuality, same-sex marriage or gay rights and preachers all over the country thunder out about the homosexual agenda from their pulpits. Yet, if means an NCAA national title, we don't notice? Suddenly, it's not even something worth talking about? All that hot air about standing up for Godly values means nothing when a national title is on the line?

This is hypocrisy in action. No wonder Southern Baptist's have the reputation of being hypocritical Pharisee's.

We Baptist's should love all homosexuals, not just the ones who can bring us a title.




http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/06/s...?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130506&_r=0

As a Southern Baptist for the last 50 years who graduated from another private Baptist university and who has a lesbian sister, I have to say that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking aobut outside the intolerant, hateful, liberal talking points you are spouting.

 

[koshergrl]

I doubt OG's baptist affiliation because as a Baptist, he should know that a condemnation of homosexuality is simply a condemnation of a sin that the world is attempting to normalize.

You can doubt all you want, but I've been a Southern Baptist all my adult life. Sorry if I don't fit the "mold."

(Actually...I'm not sorry at all.)

I'm sorry, though. You're the type of person that weakens our church. Badmouthing the church to outsiders, and trying to water down the message, while (allegedly) holding a position of authority within the church.

Nice.

 

[Oldguy]

Question for Oldguy.

If a gay man walked into your Church holding hands with his live in boyfriend and stated that he wanted to become an active member of your Church and help teach kids in Sunday school.

Would you allow him as practicing homosexual to join your Church and be allowed to help teach children's Sunday school classes?

That depends upon whether or not they've accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior. That's a prerequisite for membership. Anybody is welcome to attend, but membership is reserved for those who have confessed Christ.

Now..having said that....If they were saved, then my congregation would most likely welcome them with open arms, but a position in church leadership would be denied them so long as they openly lived in that relationship. We wouldn't allow a practicing adulterer to teach a class either, or a practicing thief. There are Biblical standards which we adhere to.

One more thing: ANY member openly and flagrantly living in direct opposition to the teachings of Christ may be subject to church discipline, though I've never seen it actually done. There is a reason for it and there is a specific procedure for enforcing church discipline, so it's not just a sort of "we don't like you thing." Or, it shouldn't be anyhow.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

We also condemn abortion...but we still accept women who have had them.

An arrogant religion of condemnation.

The Framers were indeed wise to give us a First Amendment to protect the rest of us from such arrogance.

 

[kwc57]

Every year, we Baptist's pass some kind of resolution at our annual meeting condemning homosexuality

Fucking bigots.

Your intolerance is showing.

 

[Sunni Man]

Oldguy and Koshergrl:

What if a practicing homosexual came to your Church and said he wanted to "accept Jesus as his Lord and savior" and be baptized next Sunday during regular church service.

But said he was still going to continue to live with his boyfriend after the service.

Would you still let him get "saved" and baptized in your Church in front of the congregation?

 

[Caroljo]

We shouldn't be bigoted against ANYBODY because when we do so, it grievously harms our witness and it's just Biblically wrong.

Homosexuality is condemned and called a sin throughout the Bible.

In fact God calls it an abomination worthy of death on the OT.

So how is being opposed to homosexuality and those who engage in this unholy lifestyle "Biblically wrong" ?? ..

Because we're not to condemn and pass judgement on those outside the Church. They answer to God, not us. We're to love them, help them any way we can and be ever ready to share the Gospel with them.

Yes, we're to love them and help them....but we aren't told to accept their lifestyle or tell them it's all ok!

Matthew 7:

“Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. 2 For you will be treated as you treat others.[a] The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged."

If we judge someone unfairly, we also will be judged the same way.
My "standard" by which i judge is the Bible.
When God said homosexuality is an abomination...I take Him at His word, literally.
Most don't see it as being a sin, they twist the words in the Bible to suit themselves.

When a Church denies them and does not welcome them, they are judging unfairly and need to accept them as they do anyone else. But a Church also, IMHO, should NOT agree to unite them in Marriage. Many Church's are now doing this, and i will judge that Church for that decision.

 

[Katzndogz]

It seems that the lesbian just played basketball and didn't demand that the school accommodate her chosen form of disability in any other way. Gays aren't banned, their tantrums and bizarre behavior is what is banned.

 

[Oldguy]

Except it doesn't matter how THEY see it. You present the message and you trust to God to open their ears. You preach the gospel. The gospel tells us to SIN NO MORE.

Yes, the Bible tells us to sin no more, but how many of us have met that requirement? Have you? Have you totally stopped sinning? I sure haven't and have never met anybody who has.

And, yes, it DOES matter how we're seen because witnessing the Gospel is basically a selling job and any good salesman knows you don't start by offending your prospective customers.

For instance: I do damage assessment with the SBC Disaster Relief team. I've responded to disasters from California to New York and from North Dakota to Haiti and I'm usually among the very first into a disaster area after the authorities open the roads. My job is meet with the victims, normally in the ruins of their homes and show them the love of Christ by helping them get back on their feet. Would I start by first announcing that I'm not going to help a homosexual or a Muslim or an atheist? God forbid!

I've met literally thousands of people, of all races, faiths and kinds, one on one, face to face. Muslim's and Jews. Atheist's and Mormons. Ex-cons and drug peddlers. Illegal immigrants and new American's. And, let me tell from personal experience that the FIRST thing I usually have to overcome is their perception of Southern Baptist's! Even other believers are astonished to find that we do what we do! Our image outside our churches is perfectly DREADFUL and it's because of public statements like that resolution. Too many don't think of us as a congregation of loving followers of Christ, but as judgmental finger pointers and that IS a real barrier to the evangelism work we're trying to do.

If I were just doing visitations in those neighborhoods instead of responding to a disaster, most of them would slam the door in my face the moment I mentioned Southern Baptist.

 

[Oldguy]

Oldguy and Koshergrl:

What if a practicing homosexual came to your Church and said he wanted to "accept Jesus as his Lord and savior" and be baptized next Sunday during regular church service.

But said he was still going to continue to live with his boyfriend after the service.

Would you still let him get "saved" and baptized in your Church in front of the congregation?

In the first place, we don't "allow" anyone to be saved. That's between them and Christ and we will NEVER prevent someone from professing Christ and Him risen. Never!

What they do after that is between them and God, or a matter of church discipline as I've explained.

 

[Caroljo]

Accepting homos into the church is just another sign that christianity is becoming more secular by the day.

The church used to be a place for sinners to go when they were tired of sin and wanted to change.

But today the church looks for ways to accomodate the sinner and not require them to change their sinful ways.

I agree Sunni....but many people, even though the Bible tells us exactly what God thinks of it, they will twist the words to suit their needs. Many Church's now I think are doing just that also. I don't go to Church any more mainly because of this. I study on my own or with a few friends, but i haven't found a church in my area that aren't hypocrites.
I know I'm a sinner and need God in my life...to help me stop the sinning! Gay's aren't going to Church to try to change their lifestyle, they think it's A-OK with God! And the Church's that now perform gay marriage i think one day will be very sorry for their decision!

 

[Oldguy]

Homosexuality is condemned and called a sin throughout the Bible.

In fact God calls it an abomination worthy of death on the OT.

So how is being opposed to homosexuality and those who engage in this unholy lifestyle "Biblically wrong" ?? ..

Because we're not to condemn and pass judgement on those outside the Church. They answer to God, not us. We're to love them, help them any way we can and be ever ready to share the Gospel with them.

Yes, we're to love them and help them....but we aren't told to accept their lifestyle or tell them it's all ok!

Matthew 7:

“Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. 2 For you will be treated as you treat others.[a] The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged."

If we judge someone unfairly, we also will be judged the same way.
My "standard" by which i judge is the Bible.
When God said homosexuality is an abomination...I take Him at His word, literally.
Most don't see it as being a sin, they twist the words in the Bible to suit themselves.

When a Church denies them and does not welcome them, they are judging unfairly and need to accept them as they do anyone else. But a Church also, IMHO, should NOT agree to unite them in Marriage. Many Church's are now doing this, and i will judge that Church for that decision.

I take God at His word about homosexuality too. It's wrong. And, no, I don't think a church should perform a wedding ceremony for them. I know mine wouldn't and it shouldn't.

On the other hand, neither will I condemn any sinner, saved or not. I don't know what's in their heart and I have no clue what their relationship is with Christ unless they tell me. And, I long ago adopted the position that if a person professes Christ and Him risen, that's enough for me. I'm not going to parse their behavior or their doctrine, but accept them as brothers in Christ until they give me a reason not to.

Jesus condemned sin, but He did not condemn the sinner. So do I and neither will I.

If that makes me a "bad" Southern Baptist, so be it. And, if I see my beloved denomination straying off course, I'll say something.

 

[Sunni Man]

Oldguy and Koshergrl:

What if a practicing homosexual came to your Church and said he wanted to "accept Jesus as his Lord and savior" and be baptized next Sunday during regular church service.

But said he was still going to continue to live with his boyfriend after the service.

Would you still let him get "saved" and baptized in your Church in front of the congregation?

In the first place, we don't "allow" anyone to be saved. That's between them and Christ and we will NEVER prevent someone from professing Christ and Him risen. Never!

What they do after that is between them and God, or a matter of church discipline as I've explained.

What if after the homosexual man ask Jesus to be his "Lord and savior".

He was so happy that he kissed his boy friend on the mouth and then stated in front of the congregation that he wanted to be baptized right now as a "newly saved gay christian".

Would your Church baptize him? ..