Bush Commutes Libby's Sentence

[hjmick]

I was and am against term limits, with the exception of the presidency. If the people are too idiotic to get rid of bad apples, they deserve what they get.

Unfortunately, the decisions and votes those bad apples make often have an effect on the rest of the nation as a whole. Congressman Joe Bob from Podunk can cast a vote in Congress that can easily effect Mr. & Mrs. Average American in Denver.

 

[Annie]

Unfortunately, the decisions and votes those bad apples make often have an effect on the rest of the nation as a whole. Congressman Joe Bob from Podunk can cast a vote in Congress that can easily effect Mr. & Mrs. Average American in Denver.

True, but that's the way the system works. Personally I'd love to throttle the collective electorate in Massachusetts, but I can't. They have as much right to their reps as I do mine. Shoot, I'm in Illinois and mine are as bad.

 

[Edward]

We are supposed to be a REPRESENTATIVE Democracy. Term limits put that to bed. If we are not free to chose whom we want simply because they already served x number of terms then we are denied our right to Representation of our choice.

In the words of Samuel Byran, "The authors of the new plan, conscious that it would not stand the test of enlightened patriotism, tyrannically endeavoured to preclude all investigation. If their views were laudable; if they were honest, -- the contrary would have been their conduct, they would have invited the freest discussion. Whatever specious reasons may be assigned for secrecy during the framing of the plan, no good one can exist, for leading the people blindfolded into the implicit adoption of it. Such an attempt does not augar the public good -- It carries on the face of it an intention to judggle the people out of their liberties."

You seem to insist on referring to our government as a REPRESENTATIVE Democracy in the hope of convincing people that this is true. You speak of the right to representation of our choice and yet there are millions of people who do not have representation of their choice because they did not vote in the majority. The hypocrisy of you opposing term limits because it denies you representation of your choice while you support an electoral process that denies other people representation of their choice is truly appalling. Many of those who lived at the time recognized that the Constitution and the system of government proposed by it was not a representative democracy and there are those today who also recognize this but are embarrassed to admit it. The problem with your assertion that we live in a representative democracy because we can choose our representatives when in fact we do not choose our representatives instead those who vote for a specific person choose their representative while everyone else is denied representation based on the outcome. That said, let's look at what really took place at the hands of those who supported the Constitution and ask ourselves why they insisted upon secrecy.

The words of one opponent, "Upon a subject so momentous, the public has a right to the sentiments of every individual that will reason: I therefore do not think any apology necessary for appearing in print; and I hope to avoid, at least, the indiscriminate censure which you have, with so much candor and liberality, thrown on those who will not worship your idol -- "that they are industriously endeavouring to prevent and destroy it, by insidious and clandestine attempts." Give me leave just to suggest, that perhaps these clandestine attempts might have been owning to the terror of your mob, which so nobly endeavoured to prevent all freedom of action and of speech. The reptile Doctor who was employed to blow the trmpet of persecution, would have answered the public reasoning of an opponent, by hounding on him the rage of a deluded populace."

It is important to note what was said here because it shows just the amount of terror and intimidation people who opposed the Constitution endured. They opposed it because they believed in freedom and liberty and men like Madison and Hamilton who believed they had the right to meet in secret and conspire to deprive us of our rights and liberties took it upon themselves to terrorize those who opposed the Constitution and who they "stigmatized as enemies to their country; as monsters, whose existence ought not to be suffered, and the destruction of them and their houses recommended, as meritorious." Note these words, because they are the words of men who were frightened for their lives by those who conspired to draft and to ratify the Constitution. Few of them had the fortitude to stand up and publically declare opposition except under pseudonynyms.

But let us now come to the present and to your words, "f we are not free to chose whom we want simply because they already served x number of terms then we are denied our right to Representation of our choice" which should be soundly condemned. Free minds support term limits in our present system of government because they are absolutely necessary to protect us against those who would do us and our country harm. The faction that opposes term limits does so because they fear the people and the will of the people. They aren't those who believe in REPRESENTATIVE Democracy and only use these words to delude people into believing that their desire is for representation of their choice when in reality it is not representation they desire but the power to rule indefinately that they seek. I condemn your words as tryanny and I'm ashamed that you would think that you could delude others into thinking term limits are bad for representative democracy when they are a necessary step on the road to actually becoming a representative republic.

 

[Edward]

Well, if the Constitution is to be believed then it is the duty and responsibility of the Federal Government to ensure each state has a representative form of Government. I believe term limits are antitheme to that.

The Constitution isn't to be believed or trusted and the only parts worthy of commendation are those which were inserted in September of 1789 resulting from the uproar about the Constitution not having a Bill of Rights. The threat of violence and revolt caused the conniving men who wrote the Constitution to give a little to gain even more. Many people who opposed the Constitution were willing to not revolt against these tryants on the condition that a Bill of Rights be included. For this, we should all be thankful. Had it not been for the courage and fortitude of those who opposed the Constitution and demanded a Bill of Rights when it was ratified over the rejection by the people we would be in an even worst state then we are now in. Term limits in our present form of government are absolutely necessary to preserve liberty and freedom and hopefully gain enough ground to undo what was done in 1789. It will only be when those who want representation are able to choose from a cross section of their family, friends and neighbors that we will be one step closer to what could have been but was not because of conniving men who met in secret in Philadelphia to draft a document so repugnant to the free mind that they had to terrorize the people into accepting it.

 

[Edward]

True, but that's the way the system works. Personally I'd love to throttle the collective electorate in Massachusetts, but I can't. They have as much right to their reps as I do mine. Shoot, I'm in Illinois and mine are as bad.

It works this way because of the sinister designs of small-minded and filthy men who thought themselves to be above the people and who met in secret to draft the Constitution. They understood that the best way to rule over a people is to lead them into thinking that they are the ones who are making the decisions when in fact they are not. They designed our present form of government after the British form of government with an Executive (King and President), a Legislature (Parliment and Congress) and a Judiciary. They also divided the Legislature into two houses, an upper and a lower and modeled these after the British House of Lords and the House of Commons. Why did they do this? If you don't want the people to decide the laws, and do not want them to control their own government the best way to make sure that they do not is to create a system where there are checks and balances that are intended to make sure that the people do not have a voice in their government while leading them to believe that they do. The people of Massachusetts are as free as the people of Illinois and they deserve to have their own government and their representatives should stand on equal footing with those of any state. I could go into more detail about what I think our system of government should be but I have done so elsewhere in this forum and believe that it will suffice for now.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Edward your thoughts are ridiculous. There is NO way every person could ever have their own representative except by allowing every person to cast a vote on EVERY bill, issue or condition, law, tax what ever. There are 300 million people in the United States. probably 2/3 are of voting age , maybe more.

That type of democracy can not work AND it would STILL result in people not of the majority not getting what they want. It would be chaos and cause our country to cease to function at any meaningful level.

Someone would have to have the power to act as the Spokesperson for the country. Someone would have to have authority to make decisions without a popular vote on numerous issues. On and on.

Your real hot to trot about how your denied your rights, but I do not see you proposing any method that could work to replace what we have. The British system is representative also. And as i recall your all against the British system to boot.

I also notice you do not hate our system when people you approve of get elected.

This is a board, go ahead provide us with your thoughts on how our Government should work. Start off in General sweeping terms and I am sure some of us will ask for more detail and explaination. of course you better be prepared to explain how it is better, more capable and more functional then what we have.

Perhaps rather then just attacking what we have, if you explain whats better, you will find support. I do of course realize it is much easier to just bitch and moan though.

 

[Annie]

Edward your thoughts are ridiculous. There is NO way every person could ever have their own representative except by allowing every person to cast a vote on EVERY bill, issue or condition, law, tax what ever. There are 300 million people in the United States. probably 2/3 are of voting age , maybe more.

That type of democracy can not work AND it would STILL result in people not of the majority not getting what they want. It would be chaos and cause our country to cease to function at any meaningful level.

Someone would have to have the power to act as the Spokesperson for the country. Someone would have to have authority to make decisions without a popular vote on numerous issues. On and on.

Your real hot to trot about how your denied your rights, but I do not see you proposing any method that could work to replace what we have. The British system is representative also. And as i recall your all against the British system to boot.

I also notice you do not hate our system when people you approve of get elected.

This is a board, go ahead provide us with your thoughts on how our Government should work. Start off in General sweeping terms and I am sure some of us will ask for more detail and explaination. of course you better be prepared to explain how it is better, more capable and more functional then what we have.

Perhaps rather then just attacking what we have, if you explain whats better, you will find support. I do of course realize it is much easier to just bitch and moan though.

I've been trying to figure out if he's an antifederalist? I think he'd have the same complaints at any level of government however?

 

[Stephanie]

I'm so disgusted............NOW...

I'm ready to change things............


For.............goshdanm............term limits...


I am sick to death...........

How about........Reps. and Dems.??????????????

Lets, get together............vote these assholes.......out....

Yeah, for we the People........

I'm willing.........

Are you????