Can Atheists be Moral?

[ding]

I think your argument for justifying the ending of a human life is disingenuous for two reasons. One, it’s not why women have abortions. Two, the numbers don’t support the 100% death rate from abortions.

It's not disingenuous, because it is de facto what you are demanding. You are saying that there is a percentage of risk of death that is sufficiently low, as to give you the right to demand other people to take that risk.

No. I am saying that it is a bullshit argument to begin with because that’s not why women have abortions and that the low risk is proof that isn’t the reason women get abortions. Women get abortions because they don’t want to be burdened with raising a child. The vast majority of abortions are done for selfish reasons.

True, does that impact in any way the potential risk of dying?

Yes, because that’s not why they are aborting their babies. It’s a disingenuous argument.

So the reasoning to abort, impacts maternal morality? Don't think the New England journal of medicine agrees but okay.

I am specifically referring to your disingenuous argument that women have abortions because they are afraid of dying in childbirth.

There are ~1,000,000 abortions in the US every year. You are literally trying to argue that 1,000,000 women have abortions each year because they are afraid of being one of the 260 women that die from childbirth.

That doesn’t make any sense especially since we both know the real reason is they don’t want to be burdened by having a child.

I’m actually surprised you haven’t tried to make the they are doing it for the good of the child argument yet.

 

[forkup]

Your right, it's 26 per 100000.

I think your argument for justifying the ending of a human life is disingenuous for two reasons. One, it’s not why women have abortions. Two, the numbers don’t support the 100% death rate from abortions.

It's not disingenuous, because it is de facto what you are demanding. You are saying that there is a percentage of risk of death that is sufficiently low, as to give you the right to demand other people to take that risk.

No. I am saying that it is a bullshit argument to begin with because that’s not why women have abortions and that the low risk is proof that isn’t the reason women get abortions. Women get abortions because they don’t want to be burdened with raising a child. The vast majority of abortions are done for selfish reasons.

I also want to point out the following. Raising a child is an awesome responsibility. Doing so takes a level of maturity, financial means and sense of responsibility. You feel that abortion is selfish. I know, as you undoubtedly do people who have kids who are incapable of mustering those traits. Can I ask if you feel any responsibility towards those kids and adults who are raised in such circumstances? Do you feel a sense of responsibility enough to provide healthcare, food, maybe a roof over their heads since you feel their life is so precious? Or do you feel that the only thing you have to do is make sure that they are alive and gladly abdicate any further sense of responsibility?

Yes, 100%. But I doubt we would agree on the solution. I believe in subsidiarity as this is the only effective solution. Welfare as practiced by a central government has been proven not to work.

I disagree, I'm European, Belgian to be exact. We have a way more robust welfare system, centrally controlled. My wife is American and as such I can say without reservation, that although I'm middle class, the amount of care that is available to me and my family as a matter of course is only available to actual millionaires in the US. This does include a guaranteed roof over my head, food in my mouth, healthcare and a college education for my kid without the need to accrue debt along the way.

 

[forkup]

It's not disingenuous, because it is de facto what you are demanding. You are saying that there is a percentage of risk of death that is sufficiently low, as to give you the right to demand other people to take that risk.

No. I am saying that it is a bullshit argument to begin with because that’s not why women have abortions and that the low risk is proof that isn’t the reason women get abortions. Women get abortions because they don’t want to be burdened with raising a child. The vast majority of abortions are done for selfish reasons.

True, does that impact in any way the potential risk of dying?

Yes, because that’s not why they are aborting their babies. It’s a disingenuous argument.

So the reasoning to abort, impacts maternal morality? Don't think the New England journal of medicine agrees but okay.

I am specifically referring to your disingenuous argument that women have abortions because they are afraid of dying in childbirth.

There are ~1,000,000 abortions in the US every year. You are literally trying to argue that 1,000,000 women have abortions each year because they are afraid of being one of the 260 women that die from childbirth.

That doesn’t make any sense especially since we both know the real reason is they don’t want to be burdened by having a child.

I’m actually surprised you haven’t tried to make the they are doing it for the good of the child argument yet.

Since I never made that particular argument I don't see how I can be disingenuous about it. I made the argument that the risk of death exists, not that woman invoke that risk to justify abortions.

 

[ding]

I think your argument for justifying the ending of a human life is disingenuous for two reasons. One, it’s not why women have abortions. Two, the numbers don’t support the 100% death rate from abortions.

It's not disingenuous, because it is de facto what you are demanding. You are saying that there is a percentage of risk of death that is sufficiently low, as to give you the right to demand other people to take that risk.

No. I am saying that it is a bullshit argument to begin with because that’s not why women have abortions and that the low risk is proof that isn’t the reason women get abortions. Women get abortions because they don’t want to be burdened with raising a child. The vast majority of abortions are done for selfish reasons.

I also want to point out the following. Raising a child is an awesome responsibility. Doing so takes a level of maturity, financial means and sense of responsibility. You feel that abortion is selfish. I know, as you undoubtedly do people who have kids who are incapable of mustering those traits. Can I ask if you feel any responsibility towards those kids and adults who are raised in such circumstances? Do you feel a sense of responsibility enough to provide healthcare, food, maybe a roof over their heads since you feel their life is so precious? Or do you feel that the only thing you have to do is make sure that they are alive and gladly abdicate any further sense of responsibility?

Yes, 100%. But I doubt we would agree on the solution. I believe in subsidiarity as this is the only effective solution. Welfare as practiced by a central government has been proven not to work.

I disagree, I'm European, Belgian to be exact. We have a way more robust welfare system, centrally controlled. My wife is American and as such I can say without reservation, that although I'm middle class, the amount of care that is available to me and my family as a matter of course is only available to actual millionaires in the US. This does include a guaranteed roof over my head, food in my mouth, healthcare and a college education for my kid without the need to accrue debt along the way.

I knew you would disagree. I even said so.

How many people in Belgium?

 

[forkup]

It's not disingenuous, because it is de facto what you are demanding. You are saying that there is a percentage of risk of death that is sufficiently low, as to give you the right to demand other people to take that risk.

No. I am saying that it is a bullshit argument to begin with because that’s not why women have abortions and that the low risk is proof that isn’t the reason women get abortions. Women get abortions because they don’t want to be burdened with raising a child. The vast majority of abortions are done for selfish reasons.

I also want to point out the following. Raising a child is an awesome responsibility. Doing so takes a level of maturity, financial means and sense of responsibility. You feel that abortion is selfish. I know, as you undoubtedly do people who have kids who are incapable of mustering those traits. Can I ask if you feel any responsibility towards those kids and adults who are raised in such circumstances? Do you feel a sense of responsibility enough to provide healthcare, food, maybe a roof over their heads since you feel their life is so precious? Or do you feel that the only thing you have to do is make sure that they are alive and gladly abdicate any further sense of responsibility?

Yes, 100%. But I doubt we would agree on the solution. I believe in subsidiarity as this is the only effective solution. Welfare as practiced by a central government has been proven not to work.

I disagree, I'm European, Belgian to be exact. We have a way more robust welfare system, centrally controlled. My wife is American and as such I can say without reservation, that although I'm middle class, the amount of care that is available to me and my family as a matter of course is only available to actual millionaires in the US. This does include a guaranteed roof over my head, food in my mouth, healthcare and a college education for my kid without the need to accrue debt along the way.

I knew you would disagree. I even said so.

How many people in Belgium?

12 million. And before you go of on the litany that the US is way more populous. Most Western nations, some of them with very large population achieve similar results. I invite you for instance to check life expectancy and you will find that most Western nations achieve a higher life expectancy, this despite the fact that the US healthcare system is the most expensive in the world.

 

[forkup]

No. I am saying that it is a bullshit argument to begin with because that’s not why women have abortions and that the low risk is proof that isn’t the reason women get abortions. Women get abortions because they don’t want to be burdened with raising a child. The vast majority of abortions are done for selfish reasons.

I also want to point out the following. Raising a child is an awesome responsibility. Doing so takes a level of maturity, financial means and sense of responsibility. You feel that abortion is selfish. I know, as you undoubtedly do people who have kids who are incapable of mustering those traits. Can I ask if you feel any responsibility towards those kids and adults who are raised in such circumstances? Do you feel a sense of responsibility enough to provide healthcare, food, maybe a roof over their heads since you feel their life is so precious? Or do you feel that the only thing you have to do is make sure that they are alive and gladly abdicate any further sense of responsibility?

Yes, 100%. But I doubt we would agree on the solution. I believe in subsidiarity as this is the only effective solution. Welfare as practiced by a central government has been proven not to work.

I disagree, I'm European, Belgian to be exact. We have a way more robust welfare system, centrally controlled. My wife is American and as such I can say without reservation, that although I'm middle class, the amount of care that is available to me and my family as a matter of course is only available to actual millionaires in the US. This does include a guaranteed roof over my head, food in my mouth, healthcare and a college education for my kid without the need to accrue debt along the way.

I knew you would disagree. I even said so.

How many people in Belgium?

12 million. And before you go of on the litany that the US is way more populous. Most Western nations, some of them with very large population achieve similar results. I invite you for instance to check life expectancy and you will find that most Western nations achieve a higher life expectancy, this despite the fact that the US healthcare system is the most expensive in the world.

Anyways bedtime. Nice talking to you ding.

 

[sealybobo]

That people like yourself and Taz believe faith is about death and not life.

No we get it. In life faith makes you feel good. And when you are dead none of that faith shit is going to help you. So you are 100% correct the only benefits are here and now.

It may comfort you right before you die. You think that when you expire you become a god yourself. I would think you'd be happy to die knowing this. And you get to see grandma again! Yippy!!!

Are you serious you believe this or is it just wishful thinking.

No. You still don’t get it. Your bias is getting in your way.

What am I not getting.

What if I said you aren't getting it? What would you say to that? I'll tell you what you would say. You'd say, "what am I not getting?"

So be more specific. I know you are going somewhere with this.

You aren’t getting that having faith in God changes you for the better and makes you happier about life. And it is happiness which leads to success.

Ding in my opinion, having faith does not make you happier, in fact losing faith made me a happier and better person. Unlike religion, I am compelled to try to be a decent person, after all it's not like I can ask forgiveness and be done with it when I hurt the people around me.

I think what you’re trying to say is ding is a self righteous asshole

 

[sealybobo]

What are you talking about?

That people like yourself and Taz believe faith is about death and not life.

No we get it. In life faith makes you feel good. And when you are dead none of that faith shit is going to help you. So you are 100% correct the only benefits are here and now.

It may comfort you right before you die. You think that when you expire you become a god yourself. I would think you'd be happy to die knowing this. And you get to see grandma again! Yippy!!!

Are you serious you believe this or is it just wishful thinking.

No. You still don’t get it. Your bias is getting in your way.

What am I not getting.

What if I said you aren't getting it? What would you say to that? I'll tell you what you would say. You'd say, "what am I not getting?"

So be more specific. I know you are going somewhere with this.

You aren’t getting that having faith in God changes you for the better and makes you happier about life. And it is happiness which leads to success.

Tell that to the Isis bride who now wants to come back home.

Or Leah remini who had a very tough time getting out of Scientology

 

[BreezeWood]

.
how is bing's decision to have a vasectomy not the same as a woman having an abortion - the result is the same.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

.
how is bing's decision to have a vasectomy not the same as a woman having an abortion - the result is the same.

Simple:

He believes humans are endowed with souls at the time of conception. And then they live forever (at least, the souls can). Forever, yet with a beginning. Uh oh, ding has some internal strife to wrestle with, there.

I'm sure we will be treated to some nonsense about god knowing us before we were born. I would like to hear some descriptions of rhe memories of before we were born. That would be more interesting to me than hearing about the afterlife.

 

[ding]

No. I am saying that it is a bullshit argument to begin with because that’s not why women have abortions and that the low risk is proof that isn’t the reason women get abortions. Women get abortions because they don’t want to be burdened with raising a child. The vast majority of abortions are done for selfish reasons.

I also want to point out the following. Raising a child is an awesome responsibility. Doing so takes a level of maturity, financial means and sense of responsibility. You feel that abortion is selfish. I know, as you undoubtedly do people who have kids who are incapable of mustering those traits. Can I ask if you feel any responsibility towards those kids and adults who are raised in such circumstances? Do you feel a sense of responsibility enough to provide healthcare, food, maybe a roof over their heads since you feel their life is so precious? Or do you feel that the only thing you have to do is make sure that they are alive and gladly abdicate any further sense of responsibility?

Yes, 100%. But I doubt we would agree on the solution. I believe in subsidiarity as this is the only effective solution. Welfare as practiced by a central government has been proven not to work.

I disagree, I'm European, Belgian to be exact. We have a way more robust welfare system, centrally controlled. My wife is American and as such I can say without reservation, that although I'm middle class, the amount of care that is available to me and my family as a matter of course is only available to actual millionaires in the US. This does include a guaranteed roof over my head, food in my mouth, healthcare and a college education for my kid without the need to accrue debt along the way.

I knew you would disagree. I even said so.

How many people in Belgium?

12 million. And before you go of on the litany that the US is way more populous. Most Western nations, some of them with very large population achieve similar results. I invite you for instance to check life expectancy and you will find that most Western nations achieve a higher life expectancy, this despite the fact that the US healthcare system is the most expensive in the world.

I’m not going into any litany. It’s a fact you are comparing apples to oranges and it has nothing to do with this discussion unless of course you are going to blame US healthcare for abortions which in that case you would be making the argument that abortions are being performed for the good of the unborn child.

 

[ding]

No. I am saying that it is a bullshit argument to begin with because that’s not why women have abortions and that the low risk is proof that isn’t the reason women get abortions. Women get abortions because they don’t want to be burdened with raising a child. The vast majority of abortions are done for selfish reasons.

True, does that impact in any way the potential risk of dying?

Yes, because that’s not why they are aborting their babies. It’s a disingenuous argument.

So the reasoning to abort, impacts maternal morality? Don't think the New England journal of medicine agrees but okay.

I am specifically referring to your disingenuous argument that women have abortions because they are afraid of dying in childbirth.

There are ~1,000,000 abortions in the US every year. You are literally trying to argue that 1,000,000 women have abortions each year because they are afraid of being one of the 260 women that die from childbirth.

That doesn’t make any sense especially since we both know the real reason is they don’t want to be burdened by having a child.

I’m actually surprised you haven’t tried to make the they are doing it for the good of the child argument yet.

Since I never made that particular argument I don't see how I can be disingenuous about it. I made the argument that the risk of death exists, not that woman invoke that risk to justify abortions.

I agree. You have not yet made that argument.

I also agree that women don’t get abortions because they are afraid of dying during childbirth.

 

[ding]

.
how is bing's decision to have a vasectomy not the same as a woman having an abortion - the result is the same.

Simple:

He believes humans are endowed with souls at the time of conception. And then they live forever (at least, the souls can). Forever, yet with a beginning. Uh oh, ding has some internal strife to wrestle with, there.

I'm sure we will be treated to some nonsense about god knowing us before we were born. I would like to hear some descriptions of rhe memories of before we were born. That would be more interesting to me than hearing about the afterlife.

No. I don’t believe my argument is based upon souls. I have already explained my argument. I never mentioned souls once.

 

[ding]

That people like yourself and Taz believe faith is about death and not life.

No we get it. In life faith makes you feel good. And when you are dead none of that faith shit is going to help you. So you are 100% correct the only benefits are here and now.

It may comfort you right before you die. You think that when you expire you become a god yourself. I would think you'd be happy to die knowing this. And you get to see grandma again! Yippy!!!

Are you serious you believe this or is it just wishful thinking.

No. You still don’t get it. Your bias is getting in your way.

What am I not getting.

What if I said you aren't getting it? What would you say to that? I'll tell you what you would say. You'd say, "what am I not getting?"

So be more specific. I know you are going somewhere with this.

You aren’t getting that having faith in God changes you for the better and makes you happier about life. And it is happiness which leads to success.

Tell that to the Isis bride who now wants to come back home.

Or Leah remini who had a very tough time getting out of Scientology

Because I am telling it to the guy who has no faith and spends most of his time complaining about how life is unfair.

 

[night_son]

Many theists believe it is clear-cut. Humans can only have opinions about morality, and no one’s opinion is any more valid than anyone else’s. This leads them to the conclusion that an objective source of morality must stand apart from, and above, humans. That source, they say, is God. Since atheists, reject God, atheists can have no basis for morality.

This is really two separate arguments: (1) that God is the source of objective morality and humans can learn morality from God and (2) that humans on their own have no way to know what is moral and what is not.

Can atheists be moral? - Atheist Alliance International

No.

 

[ding]

.
how is bing's decision to have a vasectomy not the same as a woman having an abortion - the result is the same.

Simple:

He believes humans are endowed with souls at the time of conception. And then they live forever (at least, the souls can). Forever, yet with a beginning. Uh oh, ding has some internal strife to wrestle with, there.

I'm sure we will be treated to some nonsense about god knowing us before we were born. I would like to hear some descriptions of rhe memories of before we were born. That would be more interesting to me than hearing about the afterlife.

See? No mention of souls or God or God knowing us before we were born. But those are some really nice straw men you built. Too bad you never addressed my actual arguments.

Because there is a 100% certainty that they will end a life that is not their own or theirs to take. Because they were the ones who got pregnant. Because the life they created will never exist again. Because the life they are taking has a right to life. Because it is wrong to end a human life. Because humans are not property to be disposed of at the will of its owner. Because actions have consequences. Because responsibly is not learned when actions have no consequences. Because it is not the unborn baby’s fault that his or her mother got pregnant. I’m sure I will think of a few more reasons as the discussion continues.

 

[sealybobo]

No we get it. In life faith makes you feel good. And when you are dead none of that faith shit is going to help you. So you are 100% correct the only benefits are here and now.

It may comfort you right before you die. You think that when you expire you become a god yourself. I would think you'd be happy to die knowing this. And you get to see grandma again! Yippy!!!

Are you serious you believe this or is it just wishful thinking.

No. You still don’t get it. Your bias is getting in your way.

What am I not getting.

What if I said you aren't getting it? What would you say to that? I'll tell you what you would say. You'd say, "what am I not getting?"

So be more specific. I know you are going somewhere with this.

You aren’t getting that having faith in God changes you for the better and makes you happier about life. And it is happiness which leads to success.

Tell that to the Isis bride who now wants to come back home.

Or Leah remini who had a very tough time getting out of Scientology

Because I am telling it to the guy who has no faith and spends most of his time complaining about how life is unfair.

The only one who spends most of his time here is you.

Religion is just one of my interests. Current events like Jesse Smollett. Or trump. I love complaining about trump as much as Christians here complained about obama.

You don’t seem happy

 

[ding]

No. You still don’t get it. Your bias is getting in your way.

What am I not getting.

What if I said you aren't getting it? What would you say to that? I'll tell you what you would say. You'd say, "what am I not getting?"

So be more specific. I know you are going somewhere with this.

You aren’t getting that having faith in God changes you for the better and makes you happier about life. And it is happiness which leads to success.

Tell that to the Isis bride who now wants to come back home.

Or Leah remini who had a very tough time getting out of Scientology

Because I am telling it to the guy who has no faith and spends most of his time complaining about how life is unfair.

The only one who spends most of his time here is you.

Religion is just one of my interests. Current events like Jesse Smollett. Or trump. I love complaining about trump as much as Christians here complained about obama.

You don’t seem happy

Actually I don’t. I post in the morning before work and I post in the evening after work. Occasionally I will make one or two posts in between.

Posting frequently isn’t really a measure of complaint though. It’s the content that is the measure of complaint.

I am more than happy for you to believe I am a complainer and you aren’t because we are all the sum of our choices and we cannot escape the consequences of our choices. So in the end we will reap what we sow.

 

[forkup]

I also want to point out the following. Raising a child is an awesome responsibility. Doing so takes a level of maturity, financial means and sense of responsibility. You feel that abortion is selfish. I know, as you undoubtedly do people who have kids who are incapable of mustering those traits. Can I ask if you feel any responsibility towards those kids and adults who are raised in such circumstances? Do you feel a sense of responsibility enough to provide healthcare, food, maybe a roof over their heads since you feel their life is so precious? Or do you feel that the only thing you have to do is make sure that they are alive and gladly abdicate any further sense of responsibility?

Yes, 100%. But I doubt we would agree on the solution. I believe in subsidiarity as this is the only effective solution. Welfare as practiced by a central government has been proven not to work.

I disagree, I'm European, Belgian to be exact. We have a way more robust welfare system, centrally controlled. My wife is American and as such I can say without reservation, that although I'm middle class, the amount of care that is available to me and my family as a matter of course is only available to actual millionaires in the US. This does include a guaranteed roof over my head, food in my mouth, healthcare and a college education for my kid without the need to accrue debt along the way.

I knew you would disagree. I even said so.

How many people in Belgium?

12 million. And before you go of on the litany that the US is way more populous. Most Western nations, some of them with very large population achieve similar results. I invite you for instance to check life expectancy and you will find that most Western nations achieve a higher life expectancy, this despite the fact that the US healthcare system is the most expensive in the world.

I’m not going into any litany. It’s a fact you are comparing apples to oranges and it has nothing to do with this discussion unless of course you are going to blame US healthcare for abortions which in that case you would be making the argument that abortions are being performed for the good of the unborn child.

-If you assert that central government welfare doesn't work. And I can show that I live in a country that does it successfully, in the exact way that you say doesn't work, how am I comparing apples and oranges? Then you try to imply that the reason it works is because the US is bigger and I can show that scaling up central government welfare from Belgium, population 11.35 million to for instance Japan, population 123.8 million with similar result. Does that not invalidate your argument? As to it having nothing to do with abortion. Probably not. But the way I see it, neither me nor you seem to bring up anything new on that part of the discussion.

 

[Blues Man]

It's not disingenuous, because it is de facto what you are demanding. You are saying that there is a percentage of risk of death that is sufficiently low, as to give you the right to demand other people to take that risk.

No. I am saying that it is a bullshit argument to begin with because that’s not why women have abortions and that the low risk is proof that isn’t the reason women get abortions. Women get abortions because they don’t want to be burdened with raising a child. The vast majority of abortions are done for selfish reasons.

True, does that impact in any way the potential risk of dying?

Yes, because that’s not why they are aborting their babies. It’s a disingenuous argument.

So the reasoning to abort, impacts maternal morality? Don't think the New England journal of medicine agrees but okay.

I am specifically referring to your disingenuous argument that women have abortions because they are afraid of dying in childbirth.

There are ~1,000,000 abortions in the US every year. You are literally trying to argue that 1,000,000 women have abortions each year because they are afraid of being one of the 260 women that die from childbirth.

That doesn’t make any sense especially since we both know the real reason is they don’t want to be burdened by having a child.

I’m actually surprised you haven’t tried to make the they are doing it for the good of the child argument yet.

Actually you are overstating

Abortion Fast Facts - CNN

you'll see that the number of abortions in 2015 ( the latest CDC data) was 638000 and that there has been a steady downward trend of the number of abortions performed annually since Roe v Wade