Can Atheists be Moral?

[Taz]

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Prayer is good for the soul.

Sure, if it makes you feel better there's nothing wrong with that. But if people are expecting something from it, they'll just be disappointed.

I don't do things to 'make me feel better'.

Better than what?

You just said "it's good for the soul". So it does make you feel better.

I wasn't feeling bad.

And prayer is not gratuitous.

 

[ding]

I believe you will find that deeply Christian individuals are better at understanding human nature than those who are decidedly against biblical Christianity. I also find that believers are drawn to each other no matter where they live or where they are from. They share the same FATHER!

You share the same myths. If your god was actually provable, everyone would be on board.

Prayer is the one thing that proves GOD exists to the believer. See Hacksaw Ridge and note prayer in action.

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Prayer alters the fabric of our identity.

It's like meditation, if it helps you, that's ok, but don't expect some imaginary invisible being to do anything.

Btw, heroin also alters the fabric of one's being.

You won’t know until you test it.

 

[Taz]

You share the same myths. If your god was actually provable, everyone would be on board.

Prayer is the one thing that proves GOD exists to the believer. See Hacksaw Ridge and note prayer in action.

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Prayer alters the fabric of our identity.

It's like meditation, if it helps you, that's ok, but don't expect some imaginary invisible being to do anything.

Btw, heroin also alters the fabric of one's being.

You won’t know until you test it.

I've prayed for you to stfu. Hasn't worked yet. Probably never will.

 

[ding]

Prayer is the one thing that proves GOD exists to the believer. See Hacksaw Ridge and note prayer in action.

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Prayer alters the fabric of our identity.

It's like meditation, if it helps you, that's ok, but don't expect some imaginary invisible being to do anything.

Btw, heroin also alters the fabric of one's being.

You won’t know until you test it.

I've prayed for you to stfu. Hasn't worked yet. Probably never will.

Prayer doesn’t work that way. If it did we would all be lottery winners.

 

[Taz]

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Prayer alters the fabric of our identity.

It's like meditation, if it helps you, that's ok, but don't expect some imaginary invisible being to do anything.

Btw, heroin also alters the fabric of one's being.

You won’t know until you test it.

I've prayed for you to stfu. Hasn't worked yet. Probably never will.

Prayer doesn’t work that way. If it did we would all be lottery winners.

So what type of thing can I pray for and except a good result?

 

[BreezeWood]

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Prayer is good for the soul.

Sure, if it makes you feel better there's nothing wrong with that. But if people are expecting something from it, they'll just be disappointed.

I don't do things to 'make me feel better'.

Better than what?

You just said "it's good for the soul". So it does make you feel better.

I wasn't feeling bad.

And prayer is not gratuitous.

.

Prayer is good for the soul ... I wasn't feeling bad.

how is reflection not a diversion from the task at hand, the same as faith without verification. interruptions are for the lazy and well fed. churchgoing for the desert religions unto themselves.

 

[ding]

Prayer alters the fabric of our identity.

It's like meditation, if it helps you, that's ok, but don't expect some imaginary invisible being to do anything.

Btw, heroin also alters the fabric of one's being.

You won’t know until you test it.

I've prayed for you to stfu. Hasn't worked yet. Probably never will.

Prayer doesn’t work that way. If it did we would all be lottery winners.

So what type of thing can I pray for and except a good result?

That’s simple. Pray that God will show you what you can do for him.

 

[ding]

The practical application of prayer is to alter the fabric of one's identity.

The structure of prayer matters. Giving thanks and giving praise puts one in a thankful state of mind which has been scientifically proven to be one of the key behaviors of reaching a state of happiness. When we are happy two things will happen; dopamine will be released which gives us that happy feeling and all of the learning centers of the brain get turned on.

Lastly and probably most importantly, prayer should not be about what God can do for us. Prayer should be about us asking God what He wants us to do.

Structure of Prayer:
1. Give thanks.
2. Give praise.
3. Ask God what He wants us to do.
4. Listen.

It can be done anytime, but I believe we are most receptive to hearing the Spirit in the early morning when we are less full of ourselves.

 

[ding]

I believe you will find that deeply Christian individuals are better at understanding human nature than those who are decidedly against biblical Christianity. I also find that believers are drawn to each other no matter where they live or where they are from. They share the same FATHER!

You share the same myths. If your god was actually provable, everyone would be on board.

Prayer is the one thing that proves GOD exists to the believer. See Hacksaw Ridge and note prayer in action.

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Simple, because everyone will die and after that the judgement. No one live in this Fallen world forever, but those who love the Lord will live with Him forever after in the next. And for whatever reason (GOD knows) some do live longer than they were supposed to.

Just curious, why do you believe these fairy tales? because it's written in a book?

They aren't fairytales, Taz. They are allegorical accounts of a shared world history before the great migration from the cradle of civilization and selected wisdoms that ancient man deemed worthy of passing down.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 1000 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 1500 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if you start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history.

You have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. You shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, you are so far removed from these events that all original meaning has been lost by you. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. You read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make yourself feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom.

 

[ding]

So let me ask

Can a religious person be immoral?

Sure. Why not?

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

 

[ding]

So let me ask

Can a religious person be immoral?

Of course they can be. They latch on to all of the moral improvements of secular society and slowly do away with strict interpretations and traditions of their bronze aged books, as those traditions are deemed barbaric by secular society.

By the time 2050 hits, they'll be considered 100% "metaphorical," and 0% true. Glad to help them along.

It is cyclical.

 

[Hollie]

Prayer is good for the soul.

Sure, if it makes you feel better there's nothing wrong with that. But if people are expecting something from it, they'll just be disappointed.

I don't do things to 'make me feel better'.

Better than what?

You just said "it's good for the soul". So it does make you feel better.

I wasn't feeling bad.

And prayer is not gratuitous.

View attachment 247328

Why is the western depiction of the jeebus a tall, fair-skinned, fair-haired Caucasian looking guy?

Making the gods in our own image?

 

[Taz]

You share the same myths. If your god was actually provable, everyone would be on board.

Prayer is the one thing that proves GOD exists to the believer. See Hacksaw Ridge and note prayer in action.

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Simple, because everyone will die and after that the judgement. No one live in this Fallen world forever, but those who love the Lord will live with Him forever after in the next. And for whatever reason (GOD knows) some do live longer than they were supposed to.

Just curious, why do you believe these fairy tales? because it's written in a book?

They aren't fairytales, Taz. They are allegorical accounts of a shared world history before the great migration from the cradle of civilization and selected wisdoms that ancient man deemed worthy of passing down.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 1000 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 1500 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if you start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history.

You have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. You shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, you are so far removed from these events that all original meaning has been lost by you. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. You read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make yourself feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom.

Total fairy tales without a shred of proof.

 

[Blues Man]

So let me ask

Can a religious person be immoral?

Sure. Why not?

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

So the entire premise of this thread is a farce.

One does not need a god to be moral or to lead a good life.

The man who lives a good life because he is afraid of some eternal punishment if he doesn't is a cowardly man

The man who lives a good life knowing that there is no reward that in fact there is nothing beyond this life is the better of the two men

 

[ding]

So let me ask

Can a religious person be immoral?

Sure. Why not?

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

So the entire premise of this thread is a farce.

One does not need a god to be moral or to lead a good life.

The man who lives a good life because he is afraid of some eternal punishment if he doesn't is a cowardly man

The man who lives a good life knowing that there is no reward that in fact there is nothing beyond this life is the better of the two men

I wouldn’t have asked the question because I believe no one is all good or all bad.

 

[ding]

Prayer is the one thing that proves GOD exists to the believer. See Hacksaw Ridge and note prayer in action.

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Simple, because everyone will die and after that the judgement. No one live in this Fallen world forever, but those who love the Lord will live with Him forever after in the next. And for whatever reason (GOD knows) some do live longer than they were supposed to.

Just curious, why do you believe these fairy tales? because it's written in a book?

They aren't fairytales, Taz. They are allegorical accounts of a shared world history before the great migration from the cradle of civilization and selected wisdoms that ancient man deemed worthy of passing down.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 1000 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 1500 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if you start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history.

You have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. You shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, you are so far removed from these events that all original meaning has been lost by you. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. You read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make yourself feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom.

Total fairy tales without a shred of proof.

Science which tells us that space and time were created from nothing and that man is a product of that creation says otherwise. So does the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

 

[Taz]

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Simple, because everyone will die and after that the judgement. No one live in this Fallen world forever, but those who love the Lord will live with Him forever after in the next. And for whatever reason (GOD knows) some do live longer than they were supposed to.

Just curious, why do you believe these fairy tales? because it's written in a book?

They aren't fairytales, Taz. They are allegorical accounts of a shared world history before the great migration from the cradle of civilization and selected wisdoms that ancient man deemed worthy of passing down.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 1000 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 1500 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if you start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history.

You have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. You shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, you are so far removed from these events that all original meaning has been lost by you. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. You read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make yourself feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom.

Total fairy tales without a shred of proof.

Science which tells us that space and time were created from nothing and that man is a product of that creation says otherwise. So does the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

Science says no such thing, we can’t yet see all the way back to the BB. Stop making shit up.

 

[Hollie]

So let me ask

Can a religious person be immoral?

Sure. Why not?

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

So the entire premise of this thread is a farce.

One does not need a god to be moral or to lead a good life.

The man who lives a good life because he is afraid of some eternal punishment if he doesn't is a cowardly man

The man who lives a good life knowing that there is no reward that in fact there is nothing beyond this life is the better of the two men

The notion that one can communicate with the denizens of a spirit world is commonplace amongst religionists. Perchance they feel they are in a unique position to intercede on their own behalf and exert influence upon the gods from whom they seek a favour? In brief, influence peddling.

 

[ding]

Simple, because everyone will die and after that the judgement. No one live in this Fallen world forever, but those who love the Lord will live with Him forever after in the next. And for whatever reason (GOD knows) some do live longer than they were supposed to.

Just curious, why do you believe these fairy tales? because it's written in a book?

They aren't fairytales, Taz. They are allegorical accounts of a shared world history before the great migration from the cradle of civilization and selected wisdoms that ancient man deemed worthy of passing down.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 1000 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 1500 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if you start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history.

You have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. You shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, you are so far removed from these events that all original meaning has been lost by you. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. You read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make yourself feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom.

Total fairy tales without a shred of proof.

Science which tells us that space and time were created from nothing and that man is a product of that creation says otherwise. So does the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

Science says no such thing, we can’t yet see all the way back to the BB. Stop making shit up.

Which part?

 

[MedfordMan]

"...If there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong." If

Simple answer.

Mankind's default (base instinct) is to act selfishly.

The question is not why do people fail to act selflessly, that is not in our nature.

The big question is why does anyone ever act selflessly, which is in opposition to their own selfish interests.

To the selfish person, the right thing is to serve themselves.

To the selfless person, the right thing is to put the interests of others above their own interests.

We are all selfish. Christianity encourages us to strive to be better than our selfish nature.