Can Atheists be Moral?

[Blues Man]

So let me ask

Can a religious person be immoral?

 

[BreezeWood]

Because there is a 100% certainty that they will end a life that is not their own or theirs to take.

has the christian explained the difference between a woman's choice for an abortion and their choice to have a vasectomy is any different by the end result.

 

[badger2]

(G)god, this infinitely knowing moral entity, after you say "I quit," says "You're fired," exposing a full-of-itself stupidity, Indifference itself:

'Thus the only necessary virtuous act can be the love of god for his own sake, from which other acts are judged. But to love god in this way simply means to act in conformity to his will. This leaves god's will entirely free with regard to its commands. With no essential order between his will and knowledge, god can without contradiction even command that a creature not love him, although the creature cannot obey, since obedience would signify love for its creator. Ockham therefore holds such a command to be logically possible but ethically self-contradictory.
....
It is therefore essential to overturn the primacy of substance, of the self-subsistent or identical, and so too any infinite being that transcends and governs the world of finite beings and becoming. It is necessary to situate an originary web of differences from which individual identities both appear and dissolve. This move not only demolishes the christian god but affirms the differences by which individuals always exceed categorization according to similarity and sameness, enabling the extension of univocity to the primary diversity of individual differences. The consequent collapse of divine heterogeneity and infinity, however, eliminates the possibility of an ultimate intelligible recuperation of difference, in either this life or an afterlife. An individual being, constituted through a formal difference linking a common natura dn haecceity that are forever irreducible, now takes on the character of a singular-multiple event, and thus an ontology of difference is born. The univocity of being no longer remains indifferent to the difference between the infinite and finite so as to protect the separation of the two realms Rather, it embodies a positive but unrepresentable difference that now breaches this sacred divide: what is common to all beings is not their quiddity but instead this very excessiveness.'
(Widder N, Genealogies of Difference, Reason and Faith, pp. 147-8)

 

[badger2]

The "nature or haecceity" is where the prisoner takes the bait of capitalized or non-capitalized letters attempting to make satan represent the latter. That is why the demon is always irreducible in its difference, whereas god's bulemic will is a desire to engulf everything eternally, once and for all in its ipseity. Mass shooters also have a culpable will directed toward a 'once-and-for-all' resolution.

 

[ding]

Yes, 100%. But I doubt we would agree on the solution. I believe in subsidiarity as this is the only effective solution. Welfare as practiced by a central government has been proven not to work.

I disagree, I'm European, Belgian to be exact. We have a way more robust welfare system, centrally controlled. My wife is American and as such I can say without reservation, that although I'm middle class, the amount of care that is available to me and my family as a matter of course is only available to actual millionaires in the US. This does include a guaranteed roof over my head, food in my mouth, healthcare and a college education for my kid without the need to accrue debt along the way.

I knew you would disagree. I even said so.

How many people in Belgium?

12 million. And before you go of on the litany that the US is way more populous. Most Western nations, some of them with very large population achieve similar results. I invite you for instance to check life expectancy and you will find that most Western nations achieve a higher life expectancy, this despite the fact that the US healthcare system is the most expensive in the world.

I’m not going into any litany. It’s a fact you are comparing apples to oranges and it has nothing to do with this discussion unless of course you are going to blame US healthcare for abortions which in that case you would be making the argument that abortions are being performed for the good of the unborn child.

-If you assert that central government welfare doesn't work. And I can show that I live in a country that does it successfully, in the exact way that you say doesn't work, how am I comparing apples and oranges? Then you try to imply that the reason it works is because the US is bigger and I can show that scaling up central government welfare from Belgium, population 11.35 million to for instance Japan, population 123.8 million with similar result. Does that not invalidate your argument? As to it having nothing to do with abortion. Probably not. But the way I see it, neither me nor you seem to bring up anything new on that part of the discussion.

Because Belgium isn’t the US. It doesn’t have the same demographics as the US. It doesn’t have the same cultural as the US. It doesn’t have the massive population of the US.

Same argument applies to Japan. You might as well be asking why a horse can’t be a dog.

And finally, time will tell if the Socialist model will work. I don’t believe it will. Especially when the European culture becomes homogenized.

 

[ding]

No. I am saying that it is a bullshit argument to begin with because that’s not why women have abortions and that the low risk is proof that isn’t the reason women get abortions. Women get abortions because they don’t want to be burdened with raising a child. The vast majority of abortions are done for selfish reasons.

True, does that impact in any way the potential risk of dying?

Yes, because that’s not why they are aborting their babies. It’s a disingenuous argument.

So the reasoning to abort, impacts maternal morality? Don't think the New England journal of medicine agrees but okay.

I am specifically referring to your disingenuous argument that women have abortions because they are afraid of dying in childbirth.

There are ~1,000,000 abortions in the US every year. You are literally trying to argue that 1,000,000 women have abortions each year because they are afraid of being one of the 260 women that die from childbirth.

That doesn’t make any sense especially since we both know the real reason is they don’t want to be burdened by having a child.

I’m actually surprised you haven’t tried to make the they are doing it for the good of the child argument yet.

Actually you are overstating

Abortion Fast Facts - CNN

you'll see that the number of abortions in 2015 ( the latest CDC data) was 638000 and that there has been a steady downward trend of the number of abortions performed annually since Roe v Wade

I don’t dispute your numbers. The average for the last 45 years is 1 million per year. But whether it is 1 million per year or 600,000 per year it does not reflect well on our society either way.

 

[LittleNipper]

Well Americans are better people than Europeans so there’s that too.

No American conservatives are better than anyone....

Maybe you should round them up for extermination, Adolph.

Americans are better people than Europeans? Why, because Americans wage war throughout the world? They have the death penalty? The most people behind bars? People with pointy hoods?

I believe you will find that deeply Christian individuals are better people than those who are decidedly against biblical Christianity. I also find that believers are drawn to each other no matter where they live or where they are from. They share the same FATHER!

I believe I will find that deeply christian individuals are NOT better people than anyone.

I believe I will find that I, an atheist/agnostic/apathetic, am a MUCH better person than any disturbed christian.

I'm certainly much better than you.

I NEVER said that Christians are better than anyone else ---- I believe they have an understanding of human nature and sin. Why do you believe you are better than anyone else?

 

[LittleNipper]

Well Americans are better people than Europeans so there’s that too.

No American conservatives are better than anyone....

Maybe you should round them up for extermination, Adolph.

Americans are better people than Europeans? Why, because Americans wage war throughout the world? They have the death penalty? The most people behind bars? People with pointy hoods?

I believe you will find that deeply Christian individuals are better at understanding human nature than those who are decidedly against biblical Christianity. I also find that believers are drawn to each other no matter where they live or where they are from. They share the same FATHER!

You share the same myths. If your god was actually provable, everyone would be on board.

Prayer is the one thing that proves GOD exists to the believer. See Hacksaw Ridge and note prayer in action.

 

[Taz]

No American conservatives are better than anyone....

Maybe you should round them up for extermination, Adolph.

Americans are better people than Europeans? Why, because Americans wage war throughout the world? They have the death penalty? The most people behind bars? People with pointy hoods?

I believe you will find that deeply Christian individuals are better at understanding human nature than those who are decidedly against biblical Christianity. I also find that believers are drawn to each other no matter where they live or where they are from. They share the same FATHER!

You share the same myths. If your god was actually provable, everyone would be on board.

Prayer is the one thing that proves GOD exists to the believer. See Hacksaw Ridge and note prayer in action.

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

 

[Mindful]

Maybe you should round them up for extermination, Adolph.

Americans are better people than Europeans? Why, because Americans wage war throughout the world? They have the death penalty? The most people behind bars? People with pointy hoods?

I believe you will find that deeply Christian individuals are better at understanding human nature than those who are decidedly against biblical Christianity. I also find that believers are drawn to each other no matter where they live or where they are from. They share the same FATHER!

You share the same myths. If your god was actually provable, everyone would be on board.

Prayer is the one thing that proves GOD exists to the believer. See Hacksaw Ridge and note prayer in action.

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Prayer is good for the soul.

 

[ding]

Maybe you should round them up for extermination, Adolph.

Americans are better people than Europeans? Why, because Americans wage war throughout the world? They have the death penalty? The most people behind bars? People with pointy hoods?

I believe you will find that deeply Christian individuals are better at understanding human nature than those who are decidedly against biblical Christianity. I also find that believers are drawn to each other no matter where they live or where they are from. They share the same FATHER!

You share the same myths. If your god was actually provable, everyone would be on board.

Prayer is the one thing that proves GOD exists to the believer. See Hacksaw Ridge and note prayer in action.

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Prayer alters the fabric of our identity.

 

[LittleNipper]

Maybe you should round them up for extermination, Adolph.

Americans are better people than Europeans? Why, because Americans wage war throughout the world? They have the death penalty? The most people behind bars? People with pointy hoods?

I believe you will find that deeply Christian individuals are better at understanding human nature than those who are decidedly against biblical Christianity. I also find that believers are drawn to each other no matter where they live or where they are from. They share the same FATHER!

You share the same myths. If your god was actually provable, everyone would be on board.

Prayer is the one thing that proves GOD exists to the believer. See Hacksaw Ridge and note prayer in action.

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Simple, because everyone will die and after that the judgement. No one live in this Fallen world forever, but those who love the Lord will live with Him forever after in the next. And for whatever reason (GOD knows) some do live longer than they were supposed to.

 

[cnm]

I believe you will find that deeply Christian individuals are better at understanding human nature than those who are decidedly against biblical Christianity. I also find that believers are drawn to each other no matter where they live or where they are from. They share the same FATHER!

The bastards...

 

[Taz]

Americans are better people than Europeans? Why, because Americans wage war throughout the world? They have the death penalty? The most people behind bars? People with pointy hoods?

I believe you will find that deeply Christian individuals are better at understanding human nature than those who are decidedly against biblical Christianity. I also find that believers are drawn to each other no matter where they live or where they are from. They share the same FATHER!

You share the same myths. If your god was actually provable, everyone would be on board.

Prayer is the one thing that proves GOD exists to the believer. See Hacksaw Ridge and note prayer in action.

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Prayer is good for the soul.

Sure, if it makes you feel better there's nothing wrong with that. But if people are expecting something from it, they'll just be disappointed.

 

[Taz]

Americans are better people than Europeans? Why, because Americans wage war throughout the world? They have the death penalty? The most people behind bars? People with pointy hoods?

I believe you will find that deeply Christian individuals are better at understanding human nature than those who are decidedly against biblical Christianity. I also find that believers are drawn to each other no matter where they live or where they are from. They share the same FATHER!

You share the same myths. If your god was actually provable, everyone would be on board.

Prayer is the one thing that proves GOD exists to the believer. See Hacksaw Ridge and note prayer in action.

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Prayer alters the fabric of our identity.

It's like meditation, if it helps you, that's ok, but don't expect some imaginary invisible being to do anything.

Btw, heroin also alters the fabric of one's being.

 

[Taz]

Americans are better people than Europeans? Why, because Americans wage war throughout the world? They have the death penalty? The most people behind bars? People with pointy hoods?

I believe you will find that deeply Christian individuals are better at understanding human nature than those who are decidedly against biblical Christianity. I also find that believers are drawn to each other no matter where they live or where they are from. They share the same FATHER!

You share the same myths. If your god was actually provable, everyone would be on board.

Prayer is the one thing that proves GOD exists to the believer. See Hacksaw Ridge and note prayer in action.

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Simple, because everyone will die and after that the judgement. No one live in this Fallen world forever, but those who love the Lord will live with Him forever after in the next. And for whatever reason (GOD knows) some do live longer than they were supposed to.

Just curious, why do you believe these fairy tales? because it's written in a book?

 

[G.T.]

So let me ask

Can a religious person be immoral?

Of course they can be. They latch on to all of the moral improvements of secular society and slowly do away with strict interpretations and traditions of their bronze aged books, as those traditions are deemed barbaric by secular society.

By the time 2050 hits, they'll be considered 100% "metaphorical," and 0% true. Glad to help them along.

 

[Mindful]

I believe you will find that deeply Christian individuals are better at understanding human nature than those who are decidedly against biblical Christianity. I also find that believers are drawn to each other no matter where they live or where they are from. They share the same FATHER!

You share the same myths. If your god was actually provable, everyone would be on board.

Prayer is the one thing that proves GOD exists to the believer. See Hacksaw Ridge and note prayer in action.

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Prayer is good for the soul.

Sure, if it makes you feel better there's nothing wrong with that. But if people are expecting something from it, they'll just be disappointed.

I don't do things to 'make me feel better'.

Better than what?

 

[Taz]

You share the same myths. If your god was actually provable, everyone would be on board.

Prayer is the one thing that proves GOD exists to the believer. See Hacksaw Ridge and note prayer in action.

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Prayer is good for the soul.

Sure, if it makes you feel better there's nothing wrong with that. But if people are expecting something from it, they'll just be disappointed.

I don't do things to 'make me feel better'.

Better than what?

You just said "it's good for the soul". So it does make you feel better.

 

[Mindful]

Prayer is the one thing that proves GOD exists to the believer. See Hacksaw Ridge and note prayer in action.

If prayer works, then why do believers still die from cancer and other terminal diseases?

Prayer is good for the soul.

Sure, if it makes you feel better there's nothing wrong with that. But if people are expecting something from it, they'll just be disappointed.

I don't do things to 'make me feel better'.

Better than what?

You just said "it's good for the soul". So it does make you feel better.

I wasn't feeling bad.

And prayer is not gratuitous.