Can The Govt FORCE You To Promote A Choice That Goes Against Your Religion? The Fight Continues...

[Fair&Balanced]

SHORT SUMMARY
A. we agree the discrimination against persons is unlawful
B. we don't agree on forcing people into speech or private activities regulated by govt under penalty of law
C. I offer mediation and gave examples of "unintented consequences" that affect private customers
an why we need conflict resolution where some cases blur A and B.

rightwinger I apologize but i MUST take exception to this limitation.
The problem is MORE complex than just A. Issues in B cross the line into PRIVATE beliefs
and activities and customers that Govt cannot be abused to impose regulations and consequences on!

The problems and solutions are MUCH MORE comprehensive
than what I covered as A B and C. If you can't even read that,
then how dare you impose a policy that requires much more than that!

You are like saying it is okay to ban abortion if you can't answer briefly.
the problems and solutions are MORE COMPLEX and deserve a full
answer to ALL objections.

If you can't even allow the freedom of speech necessary to resolve
these conflicts, then no law should be imposed at all.

Sorry rightwinger you don't deserve the freedom of choice to
have the beliefs you want "imposed on everyone else"
if you can't take responsibility for the CONSEQUENCES and GRIEVANCES this causes others!!!

Sorry Emily

Still takes you way too long to make a point
Get it down to three sentences and I will reply

Here's a point.

Do I, as an individual have the right to discriminate? Yes or no?

As an individual...you sure do

As a business....you have to follow the law

So you can't even just answer a question.


Great, we've determined that I DO have a right to discriminate. Excellent.

Now, can you name one other right that I have to give up to own a business?

Further, can you explain to me why I should have to give up what you admit is a right, just to own a business?

Your question is answered....You just don't like the answer

Once you open a business you lose your freedom of association. You don't get to put up a sign that says "We don't serve negroes here"
You also lose your right to set your own labor rules, you lose the right to have your building any way you want, you lose the right to have a sloppy kitchen if you want one

No the question wasn't answered.

I don't have a right to set my own labor rate, I don't have a right to build a building any way I want, I don't have a right to have a sloppy kitchen. NONE of those are rights.

So, that leaves us with the right of association. Explain to me how the government has the authority to take away that right?

And further, are you truly too stupid to understand that once you let a government take your rights, they can take any of them that they please?

 

[rightwinger]

Sorry Emily

Still takes you way too long to make a point
Get it down to three sentences and I will reply

Here's a point.

Do I, as an individual have the right to discriminate? Yes or no?

As an individual...you sure do

As a business....you have to follow the law

So you can't even just answer a question.


Great, we've determined that I DO have a right to discriminate. Excellent.

Now, can you name one other right that I have to give up to own a business?

Further, can you explain to me why I should have to give up what you admit is a right, just to own a business?

Your question is answered....You just don't like the answer

Once you open a business you lose your freedom of association. You don't get to put up a sign that says "We don't serve negroes here"
You also lose your right to set your own labor rules, you lose the right to have your building any way you want, you lose the right to have a sloppy kitchen if you want one

Dear rightwinger
If you read my message I already said there is no legal dispute over this, if there is it is resolved as you state.

The dispute is over
* going to PRIVATE venues OFF SITE and engaging in PRIVATE activities
* violating FREE SPEECH by govt regulations and penalty for not complying

Please answer if this is short enough.
I didn't agree to give up freedom of speech but apparently you believe in regulating it.
Free speech is necessary for DUE PROCESS. why are you so opposed to DUE PROCESS?

Since you made an effort to get to the point, I will respond

If you normally rent a hall for weddings and a gay couple comes to rent your facility...you follow the law and rent to them

There is nothing to mediate. You rent the hall or you don't

Has nothing to do with free speech, it is a public accommodation issue
You want DUE PROCESS? The courts are always open to hear your complaint

 

[Fair&Balanced]

SHORT SUMMARY
A. we agree the discrimination against persons is unlawful
B. we don't agree on forcing people into speech or private activities regulated by govt under penalty of law
C. I offer mediation and gave examples of "unintented consequences" that affect private customers
an why we need conflict resolution where some cases blur A and B.

rightwinger I apologize but i MUST take exception to this limitation.
The problem is MORE complex than just A. Issues in B cross the line into PRIVATE beliefs
and activities and customers that Govt cannot be abused to impose regulations and consequences on!

The problems and solutions are MUCH MORE comprehensive
than what I covered as A B and C. If you can't even read that,
then how dare you impose a policy that requires much more than that!

You are like saying it is okay to ban abortion if you can't answer briefly.
the problems and solutions are MORE COMPLEX and deserve a full
answer to ALL objections.

If you can't even allow the freedom of speech necessary to resolve
these conflicts, then no law should be imposed at all.

Sorry rightwinger you don't deserve the freedom of choice to
have the beliefs you want "imposed on everyone else"
if you can't take responsibility for the CONSEQUENCES and GRIEVANCES this causes others!!!

Sorry Emily

Still takes you way too long to make a point
Get it down to three sentences and I will reply

Here's a point.

Do I, as an individual have the right to discriminate? Yes or no?

As an individual...you sure do

As a business....you have to follow the law

So you can't even just answer a question.


Great, we've determined that I DO have a right to discriminate. Excellent.

Now, can you name one other right that I have to give up to own a business?

Further, can you explain to me why I should have to give up what you admit is a right, just to own a business?

No one says you don’t have the right to discriminate – you can discriminate to your heart’s content.

But as a business owner in a jurisdiction whose public accommodations law has a provision for sexual orientation, you may not deny services to a gay patron, having nothing to do with ‘discrimination’ – just as you cannot pay your employees less than the minimum wage or endanger your employees’ safety in the workplace.

Public accommodations laws are regulatory policy, where jurisdictions have determined that to refuse services based on race, religion, or sexual orientation is disruptive to the local market, and local governments are at liberty to regulate local markets as they so desire consistent with Commerce Clause jurisprudence.

When not running your business you may discriminate all you want, revel in your ignorance and hate.

But while running your business you’ll obey the law, including accommodating gay patrons, as such laws neither ‘violate’ your religious liberty, nor ‘force’ you to ‘give up’ any rights.

Yall keep comparing rights to non rights.

A law can NOT take away a right. PERIOD. That's the entire point of the COTUS.

I don't have a right to hire someone and pay them less than minimum wage. That's not a right. Whether I'm a business or not, that's not a right. Compared to say the right to not have my stuff searched without a warrant. Can the government pass a law that says "the commerce clause allows us to search your business without a warrant?"

 

[rightwinger]

Sorry Emily

Still takes you way too long to make a point
Get it down to three sentences and I will reply

Here's a point.

Do I, as an individual have the right to discriminate? Yes or no?

As an individual...you sure do

As a business....you have to follow the law

So you can't even just answer a question.


Great, we've determined that I DO have a right to discriminate. Excellent.

Now, can you name one other right that I have to give up to own a business?

Further, can you explain to me why I should have to give up what you admit is a right, just to own a business?

Your question is answered....You just don't like the answer

Once you open a business you lose your freedom of association. You don't get to put up a sign that says "We don't serve negroes here"
You also lose your right to set your own labor rules, you lose the right to have your building any way you want, you lose the right to have a sloppy kitchen if you want one

No the question wasn't answered.

I don't have a right to set my own labor rate, I don't have a right to build a building any way I want, I don't have a right to have a sloppy kitchen. NONE of those are rights.

So, that leaves us with the right of association. Explain to me how the government has the authority to take away that right?

And further, are you truly too stupid to understand that once you let a government take your rights, they can take any of them that they please?

You confuse the rights of an individual with the rights of a business

An individual can have a sloppy kitchen....a business can't
An individual can decide not to have negroes or gays over for dinner....a business can't

 

[Fair&Balanced]

Here's a point.

Do I, as an individual have the right to discriminate? Yes or no?

As an individual...you sure do

As a business....you have to follow the law

So you can't even just answer a question.


Great, we've determined that I DO have a right to discriminate. Excellent.

Now, can you name one other right that I have to give up to own a business?

Further, can you explain to me why I should have to give up what you admit is a right, just to own a business?

Your question is answered....You just don't like the answer

Once you open a business you lose your freedom of association. You don't get to put up a sign that says "We don't serve negroes here"
You also lose your right to set your own labor rules, you lose the right to have your building any way you want, you lose the right to have a sloppy kitchen if you want one

No the question wasn't answered.

I don't have a right to set my own labor rate, I don't have a right to build a building any way I want, I don't have a right to have a sloppy kitchen. NONE of those are rights.

So, that leaves us with the right of association. Explain to me how the government has the authority to take away that right?

And further, are you truly too stupid to understand that once you let a government take your rights, they can take any of them that they please?

You confuse the rights of an individual with the rights of a business

An individual can have a sloppy kitchen....a business can't
An individual can decide not to have negroes or gays over for dinner....a business can't

Again , those aren't rights.

And of course a business can have a sloppy kitchen and not invite negroes or gays for dinner. If they aren't in the food business.

LOL @ you trying to equate health codes for restaurants with the right to free assembly. That's just sad.

 

[emilynghiem]

I'm a Christian paramedic and when I came on scene the person identified themself as Wiccan. Well it's against my religion so I provided no aid and they died.

And by the way, I'm pro-life.

DERRRRRPPPPPS.

What? IsaacNewton
No, that is NOT spiritual healing!

Medical help does not conflict with Wicca, it's the spiritual healing of the root cause that does, but that comes later. You save the person from dying first, and deal with the rest later. Are you OUT of your MIND?

If a person falls into a diabetic coma, OF COURSE you treat them medically first.
Then you help them with the diabetes symptoms and LONGTERM treatment AFTERWARDS.

Spiritual healing does not reject medical help and does not advocate breaking laws.
What are you saying? That is NOT what I'm talking about AT ALL.
That doesn't affect treating patients in emergencies, good lord!

You are talking about medical intervention in an emergency.
So OF COURSE that comes first before you worry about treating the cause.

When the patient is safe and stable, and you apply spiritual healing to diagnose
the root cause of what started the ill conditions to set in and continue,
THAT'S where it is dangerous to mix spiritual healing if someone is still under the influence of witchcraft.
This has to be cast out first, similar to making sure the patient
does NOT have food or alcohol in their system BEFORE you give them drugs that react to that.
You have to remove the conflicting substance from their system or the treatment could kill them.

I don't know what you are talking about
but it's not the same thing I am.

 

[Fang]

Two more "Christians", breaking the law.

The laws of Jesusland are not the same as the laws of the USA. Just for starters, our law is not an eye for an eye either.

They haven't broken any laws. You commented without knowing all the facts. And to think 3 people "thanked" you. smh

 

[emilynghiem]

Here's a point.

Do I, as an individual have the right to discriminate? Yes or no?

As an individual...you sure do

As a business....you have to follow the law

So you can't even just answer a question.


Great, we've determined that I DO have a right to discriminate. Excellent.

Now, can you name one other right that I have to give up to own a business?

Further, can you explain to me why I should have to give up what you admit is a right, just to own a business?

Your question is answered....You just don't like the answer

Once you open a business you lose your freedom of association. You don't get to put up a sign that says "We don't serve negroes here"
You also lose your right to set your own labor rules, you lose the right to have your building any way you want, you lose the right to have a sloppy kitchen if you want one

No the question wasn't answered.

I don't have a right to set my own labor rate, I don't have a right to build a building any way I want, I don't have a right to have a sloppy kitchen. NONE of those are rights.

So, that leaves us with the right of association. Explain to me how the government has the authority to take away that right?

And further, are you truly too stupid to understand that once you let a government take your rights, they can take any of them that they please?

You confuse the rights of an individual with the rights of a business

An individual can have a sloppy kitchen....a business can't
An individual can decide not to have negroes or gays over for dinner....a business can't

rightwinger what about
1. asking a baker to go attend a gay wedding service they don't believe in supporting.
This is at a private venue, not on site at their business.

2. forcing a photographer to go to a private party
and film pornography and people having sex outside of marriage
which is against their beliefs.

Can you even answer this question?

 

[emilynghiem]

Two more "Christians", breaking the law.

The laws of Jesusland are not the same as the laws of the USA. Just for starters, our law is not an eye for an eye either.

Dear Evesbodyman
Can you prove which beliefs about gender/orientation are true or untrue for all people?
Can you scientifically prove homosexual and transgender identity are genetic, and not a choice of BEHAVIOR?

Race and physical gender can be shown genetically and that is the standard that opponents
are asking to use. What about orientation and identity? if this is spiritually determined or a personal choice of behavior, isn't that more like a BELIEF or CREED (equally protected
by law as any other person's BELIEF or CREED regarding homosexuality or transgender identity not proven by science)

NOTE: If both sides have beliefs, that are FAITH-based and not proven by science,
can you explain how Govt has authority to endorse one side's beliefs while penalizing the other for not agreeing?

 

[rightwinger]

As an individual...you sure do

As a business....you have to follow the law

So you can't even just answer a question.


Great, we've determined that I DO have a right to discriminate. Excellent.

Now, can you name one other right that I have to give up to own a business?

Further, can you explain to me why I should have to give up what you admit is a right, just to own a business?

Your question is answered....You just don't like the answer

Once you open a business you lose your freedom of association. You don't get to put up a sign that says "We don't serve negroes here"
You also lose your right to set your own labor rules, you lose the right to have your building any way you want, you lose the right to have a sloppy kitchen if you want one

No the question wasn't answered.

I don't have a right to set my own labor rate, I don't have a right to build a building any way I want, I don't have a right to have a sloppy kitchen. NONE of those are rights.

So, that leaves us with the right of association. Explain to me how the government has the authority to take away that right?

And further, are you truly too stupid to understand that once you let a government take your rights, they can take any of them that they please?

You confuse the rights of an individual with the rights of a business

An individual can have a sloppy kitchen....a business can't
An individual can decide not to have negroes or gays over for dinner....a business can't

Again , those aren't rights.

And of course a business can have a sloppy kitchen and not invite negroes or gays for dinner. If they aren't in the food business.

LOL @ you trying to equate health codes for restaurants with the right to free assembly. That's just sad.

There are many rules and regulations a business must follow.....health codes, labor laws, zoning ordinances, workplace safety, smoking....even public accomodation

 

[Fair&Balanced]

So you can't even just answer a question.


Great, we've determined that I DO have a right to discriminate. Excellent.

Now, can you name one other right that I have to give up to own a business?

Further, can you explain to me why I should have to give up what you admit is a right, just to own a business?

Your question is answered....You just don't like the answer

Once you open a business you lose your freedom of association. You don't get to put up a sign that says "We don't serve negroes here"
You also lose your right to set your own labor rules, you lose the right to have your building any way you want, you lose the right to have a sloppy kitchen if you want one

No the question wasn't answered.

I don't have a right to set my own labor rate, I don't have a right to build a building any way I want, I don't have a right to have a sloppy kitchen. NONE of those are rights.

So, that leaves us with the right of association. Explain to me how the government has the authority to take away that right?

And further, are you truly too stupid to understand that once you let a government take your rights, they can take any of them that they please?

You confuse the rights of an individual with the rights of a business

An individual can have a sloppy kitchen....a business can't
An individual can decide not to have negroes or gays over for dinner....a business can't

Again , those aren't rights.

And of course a business can have a sloppy kitchen and not invite negroes or gays for dinner. If they aren't in the food business.

LOL @ you trying to equate health codes for restaurants with the right to free assembly. That's just sad.

There are many rules and regulations a business must follow.....health codes, labor laws, zoning ordinances, workplace safety, smoking....even public accomodation

And yet, ONLY public accommodation laws violate the rights of a business owner.

You've yet to explain that.

 

[rightwinger]

As an individual...you sure do

As a business....you have to follow the law

So you can't even just answer a question.


Great, we've determined that I DO have a right to discriminate. Excellent.

Now, can you name one other right that I have to give up to own a business?

Further, can you explain to me why I should have to give up what you admit is a right, just to own a business?

Your question is answered....You just don't like the answer

Once you open a business you lose your freedom of association. You don't get to put up a sign that says "We don't serve negroes here"
You also lose your right to set your own labor rules, you lose the right to have your building any way you want, you lose the right to have a sloppy kitchen if you want one

No the question wasn't answered.

I don't have a right to set my own labor rate, I don't have a right to build a building any way I want, I don't have a right to have a sloppy kitchen. NONE of those are rights.

So, that leaves us with the right of association. Explain to me how the government has the authority to take away that right?

And further, are you truly too stupid to understand that once you let a government take your rights, they can take any of them that they please?

You confuse the rights of an individual with the rights of a business

An individual can have a sloppy kitchen....a business can't
An individual can decide not to have negroes or gays over for dinner....a business can't

rightwinger what about
1. asking a baker to go attend a gay wedding service they don't believe in supporting.
This is at a private venue, not on site at their business.

2. forcing a photographer to go to a private party
and film pornography and people having sex outside of marriage
which is against their beliefs.

Can you even answer this question?

Nice and concise
Just the way I like it

1. If the baker is normally required to attend a wedding service (which they are not), then yes, he does it for gay weddings too

2. Makes no sense. If a photographer is not in the business of filming pornography, nobody is forcing him to
If he is a wedding photographer he has to photograph weddings

 

[Fair&Balanced]

So you can't even just answer a question.


Great, we've determined that I DO have a right to discriminate. Excellent.

Now, can you name one other right that I have to give up to own a business?

Further, can you explain to me why I should have to give up what you admit is a right, just to own a business?

Your question is answered....You just don't like the answer

Once you open a business you lose your freedom of association. You don't get to put up a sign that says "We don't serve negroes here"
You also lose your right to set your own labor rules, you lose the right to have your building any way you want, you lose the right to have a sloppy kitchen if you want one

No the question wasn't answered.

I don't have a right to set my own labor rate, I don't have a right to build a building any way I want, I don't have a right to have a sloppy kitchen. NONE of those are rights.

So, that leaves us with the right of association. Explain to me how the government has the authority to take away that right?

And further, are you truly too stupid to understand that once you let a government take your rights, they can take any of them that they please?

You confuse the rights of an individual with the rights of a business

An individual can have a sloppy kitchen....a business can't
An individual can decide not to have negroes or gays over for dinner....a business can't

rightwinger what about
1. asking a baker to go attend a gay wedding service they don't believe in supporting.
This is at a private venue, not on site at their business.

2. forcing a photographer to go to a private party
and film pornography and people having sex outside of marriage
which is against their beliefs.

Can you even answer this question?

Nice and concise
Just the way I like it

1. If the baker is normally required to attend a wedding service (which they are not), then yes, he does it for gay weddings too

2. Makes no sense. If a photographer is not in the business of filming pornography, nobody is forcing him to
If he is a wedding photographer he has to photograph weddings

Here's how stupid your interpretation is.

You claim that as long as a photographer advertises that he takes wedding photos he has to take on gay clients yes?

What if he advertises that he takes photos of heterosexual weddings , rather than just weddings in general? Can the government force him to change his business model?

 

[rightwinger]

Your question is answered....You just don't like the answer

Once you open a business you lose your freedom of association. You don't get to put up a sign that says "We don't serve negroes here"
You also lose your right to set your own labor rules, you lose the right to have your building any way you want, you lose the right to have a sloppy kitchen if you want one

No the question wasn't answered.

I don't have a right to set my own labor rate, I don't have a right to build a building any way I want, I don't have a right to have a sloppy kitchen. NONE of those are rights.

So, that leaves us with the right of association. Explain to me how the government has the authority to take away that right?

And further, are you truly too stupid to understand that once you let a government take your rights, they can take any of them that they please?

You confuse the rights of an individual with the rights of a business

An individual can have a sloppy kitchen....a business can't
An individual can decide not to have negroes or gays over for dinner....a business can't

Again , those aren't rights.

And of course a business can have a sloppy kitchen and not invite negroes or gays for dinner. If they aren't in the food business.

LOL @ you trying to equate health codes for restaurants with the right to free assembly. That's just sad.

There are many rules and regulations a business must follow.....health codes, labor laws, zoning ordinances, workplace safety, smoking....even public accomodation

And yet, ONLY public accommodation laws violate the rights of a business owner.

You've yet to explain that.

Hardly

You open for business, you follow the law
If the owner is a smoker he can't do it at the place of business....even if it is his business
If the owner hates fags, he still has to open his business to them

 

[emilynghiem]

Sorry Emily

Still takes you way too long to make a point
Get it down to three sentences and I will reply

Here's a point.

Do I, as an individual have the right to discriminate? Yes or no?

As an individual...you sure do

As a business....you have to follow the law

So you can't even just answer a question.


Great, we've determined that I DO have a right to discriminate. Excellent.

Now, can you name one other right that I have to give up to own a business?

Further, can you explain to me why I should have to give up what you admit is a right, just to own a business?

No one says you don’t have the right to discriminate – you can discriminate to your heart’s content.

But as a business owner in a jurisdiction whose public accommodations law has a provision for sexual orientation, you may not deny services to a gay patron, having nothing to do with ‘discrimination’ – just as you cannot pay your employees less than the minimum wage or endanger your employees’ safety in the workplace.

Public accommodations laws are regulatory policy, where jurisdictions have determined that to refuse services based on race, religion, or sexual orientation is disruptive to the local market, and local governments are at liberty to regulate local markets as they so desire consistent with Commerce Clause jurisprudence.

When not running your business you may discriminate all you want, revel in your ignorance and hate.

But while running your business you’ll obey the law, including accommodating gay patrons, as such laws neither ‘violate’ your religious liberty, nor ‘force’ you to ‘give up’ any rights.

Yall keep comparing rights to non rights.

A law can NOT take away a right. PERIOD. That's the entire point of the COTUS.

I don't have a right to hire someone and pay them less than minimum wage. That's not a right. Whether I'm a business or not, that's not a right. Compared to say the right to not have my stuff searched without a warrant. Can the government pass a law that says "the commerce clause allows us to search your business without a warrant?"

Dear rightwinger and C_Clayton_Jones
I agree with how Fair&Balanced explained it:
We cannot use or abuse Govt to enforce one law in ways that violate others.

So if someone defends their property, but goes too far and murders people
deliberately (as in the case of the homeowner who held, assaulted and killed two teens for breaking into his house and got murder charges and conviction) then that is not justified.

If you are going to correct or prevent discrimination,
it cannot be by enforcing policies that directly or INDIRECTLY
violate equal rights of others.

In this case, rightwinger there are both direct and indirect CONSEQUENCES that affect
PRIVATE customers and areas of the law that govt does not have authority to restrict or deny freedom
"without due process of laws".

I would compare this to defending "right to life" beliefs
by passing laws banning abortion which disproportionately affect women more than men,
and end up discriminating against women and violating substantive due process.

You have the right to your beliefs about homosexuality and transgender identity,
but the laws must not create additional or indirect violations of the rights of others.

Thank you Fair&Balanced
I am glad you are able to keep things short
because we need people like you to help with mediation
for people with no clue how deep the implications are.

 

[Fair&Balanced]

No the question wasn't answered.

I don't have a right to set my own labor rate, I don't have a right to build a building any way I want, I don't have a right to have a sloppy kitchen. NONE of those are rights.

So, that leaves us with the right of association. Explain to me how the government has the authority to take away that right?

And further, are you truly too stupid to understand that once you let a government take your rights, they can take any of them that they please?

You confuse the rights of an individual with the rights of a business

An individual can have a sloppy kitchen....a business can't
An individual can decide not to have negroes or gays over for dinner....a business can't

Again , those aren't rights.

And of course a business can have a sloppy kitchen and not invite negroes or gays for dinner. If they aren't in the food business.

LOL @ you trying to equate health codes for restaurants with the right to free assembly. That's just sad.

There are many rules and regulations a business must follow.....health codes, labor laws, zoning ordinances, workplace safety, smoking....even public accomodation

And yet, ONLY public accommodation laws violate the rights of a business owner.

You've yet to explain that.

Hardly

You open for business, you follow the law
If the owner is a smoker he can't do it at the place of business....even if it is his business
If the owner hates fags, he still has to open his business to them

Bullshit, if person owns a business, he can smoke all the cigarettes he wants in his business. Just not in the food prep or dining area (assuming the food industry)

 

[Fair&Balanced]

Here's a point.

Do I, as an individual have the right to discriminate? Yes or no?

As an individual...you sure do

As a business....you have to follow the law

So you can't even just answer a question.


Great, we've determined that I DO have a right to discriminate. Excellent.

Now, can you name one other right that I have to give up to own a business?

Further, can you explain to me why I should have to give up what you admit is a right, just to own a business?

No one says you don’t have the right to discriminate – you can discriminate to your heart’s content.

But as a business owner in a jurisdiction whose public accommodations law has a provision for sexual orientation, you may not deny services to a gay patron, having nothing to do with ‘discrimination’ – just as you cannot pay your employees less than the minimum wage or endanger your employees’ safety in the workplace.

Public accommodations laws are regulatory policy, where jurisdictions have determined that to refuse services based on race, religion, or sexual orientation is disruptive to the local market, and local governments are at liberty to regulate local markets as they so desire consistent with Commerce Clause jurisprudence.

When not running your business you may discriminate all you want, revel in your ignorance and hate.

But while running your business you’ll obey the law, including accommodating gay patrons, as such laws neither ‘violate’ your religious liberty, nor ‘force’ you to ‘give up’ any rights.

Yall keep comparing rights to non rights.

A law can NOT take away a right. PERIOD. That's the entire point of the COTUS.

I don't have a right to hire someone and pay them less than minimum wage. That's not a right. Whether I'm a business or not, that's not a right. Compared to say the right to not have my stuff searched without a warrant. Can the government pass a law that says "the commerce clause allows us to search your business without a warrant?"

Dear rightwinger and C_Clayton_Jones
I agree with how Fair&Balanced explained it:
We cannot use or abuse Govt to enforce one law in ways that violate others.

So if someone defends their property, but goes too far and murders people
deliberately (as in the case of the homeowner who held, assaulted and killed two teens for breaking into his house and got murder charges and conviction) then that is not justified.

If you are going to correct or prevent discrimination,
it cannot be by enforcing policies that directly or INDIRECTLY
violate equal rights of others.

In this case, rightwinger there are both direct and indirect CONSEQUENCES that affect
PRIVATE customers and areas of the law that govt does not have authority to restrict or deny freedom
"without due process of laws".

I would compare this to defending "right to life" beliefs
by passing laws banning abortion which disproportionately affect women more than men,
and end up discriminating against women and violating substantive due process.

You have the right to your beliefs about homosexuality and transgender identity,
but the laws must not create additional or indirect violations of the rights of others.

Thank you Fair&Balanced
I am glad you are able to keep things short
because we need people like you to help with mediation
for people with no clue how deep the implications are.

Dear, you have to keep your responses to RightWinger to three sentences or less, preferably with worlds of no more than three syllables each.

 

[emilynghiem]

Your question is answered....You just don't like the answer

Once you open a business you lose your freedom of association. You don't get to put up a sign that says "We don't serve negroes here"
You also lose your right to set your own labor rules, you lose the right to have your building any way you want, you lose the right to have a sloppy kitchen if you want one

No the question wasn't answered.

I don't have a right to set my own labor rate, I don't have a right to build a building any way I want, I don't have a right to have a sloppy kitchen. NONE of those are rights.

So, that leaves us with the right of association. Explain to me how the government has the authority to take away that right?

And further, are you truly too stupid to understand that once you let a government take your rights, they can take any of them that they please?

You confuse the rights of an individual with the rights of a business

An individual can have a sloppy kitchen....a business can't
An individual can decide not to have negroes or gays over for dinner....a business can't

rightwinger what about
1. asking a baker to go attend a gay wedding service they don't believe in supporting.
This is at a private venue, not on site at their business.

2. forcing a photographer to go to a private party
and film pornography and people having sex outside of marriage
which is against their beliefs.

Can you even answer this question?

Nice and concise
Just the way I like it

1. If the baker is normally required to attend a wedding service (which they are not), then yes, he does it for gay weddings too

2. Makes no sense. If a photographer is not in the business of filming pornography, nobody is forcing him to
If he is a wedding photographer he has to photograph weddings

Here's how stupid your interpretation is.

You claim that as long as a photographer advertises that he takes wedding photos he has to take on gay clients yes?

What if he advertises that he takes photos of heterosexual weddings , rather than just weddings in general? Can the government force him to change his business model?

To save on time and trouble Fair&Balanced
why not promote a business model and waiver
where everyone has a form to sign agreeing to
resolve conflicts by mediation and consensus,
and agrees to avoid legal expenses or actions.
and if any dispute cannot be resolved freely,
then the parties agree not to conduct business together
but to cancel the contract and return any funds or
materials not used that still meet the terms of refunds.
If they still do not agree on terms of ending the
contract, this is referred to arbitration chosen by the
business, while the mediation is chosen by the customer.

So advertise that, and only customers who agree
to mediate conflicts will apply and be accepted for services.

Are you a legal writer Fair&Balanced?
Can I ask the help of you and 320 Years of History
to write this up as a sample waiver for mediation/arbitration?
I'd like to pitch it to all city mayors and state governors
who've been caught in the middle of these conflicts.

If we could write up a sample agreement to treat
all beliefs on homosexual orientation and transgender identity
equally as CREEDS, since these remain faith-based
and not proven by science, I think that would help also. Thanks!

 

[emilynghiem]

As an individual...you sure do

As a business....you have to follow the law

So you can't even just answer a question.


Great, we've determined that I DO have a right to discriminate. Excellent.

Now, can you name one other right that I have to give up to own a business?

Further, can you explain to me why I should have to give up what you admit is a right, just to own a business?

No one says you don’t have the right to discriminate – you can discriminate to your heart’s content.

But as a business owner in a jurisdiction whose public accommodations law has a provision for sexual orientation, you may not deny services to a gay patron, having nothing to do with ‘discrimination’ – just as you cannot pay your employees less than the minimum wage or endanger your employees’ safety in the workplace.

Public accommodations laws are regulatory policy, where jurisdictions have determined that to refuse services based on race, religion, or sexual orientation is disruptive to the local market, and local governments are at liberty to regulate local markets as they so desire consistent with Commerce Clause jurisprudence.

When not running your business you may discriminate all you want, revel in your ignorance and hate.

But while running your business you’ll obey the law, including accommodating gay patrons, as such laws neither ‘violate’ your religious liberty, nor ‘force’ you to ‘give up’ any rights.

Yall keep comparing rights to non rights.

A law can NOT take away a right. PERIOD. That's the entire point of the COTUS.

I don't have a right to hire someone and pay them less than minimum wage. That's not a right. Whether I'm a business or not, that's not a right. Compared to say the right to not have my stuff searched without a warrant. Can the government pass a law that says "the commerce clause allows us to search your business without a warrant?"

Dear rightwinger and C_Clayton_Jones
I agree with how Fair&Balanced explained it:
We cannot use or abuse Govt to enforce one law in ways that violate others.

So if someone defends their property, but goes too far and murders people
deliberately (as in the case of the homeowner who held, assaulted and killed two teens for breaking into his house and got murder charges and conviction) then that is not justified.

If you are going to correct or prevent discrimination,
it cannot be by enforcing policies that directly or INDIRECTLY
violate equal rights of others.

In this case, rightwinger there are both direct and indirect CONSEQUENCES that affect
PRIVATE customers and areas of the law that govt does not have authority to restrict or deny freedom
"without due process of laws".

I would compare this to defending "right to life" beliefs
by passing laws banning abortion which disproportionately affect women more than men,
and end up discriminating against women and violating substantive due process.

You have the right to your beliefs about homosexuality and transgender identity,
but the laws must not create additional or indirect violations of the rights of others.

Thank you Fair&Balanced
I am glad you are able to keep things short
because we need people like you to help with mediation
for people with no clue how deep the implications are.

Dear, you have to keep your responses to RightWinger to three sentences or less, preferably with worlds of no more than three syllables each.

Well the three words I want to say have 4 syllables
and not very nice. Normally I can converse with rightwinger and want to keep dialogue open.
So I don't want to give up and say go blank yourself as would be easier to meet the restrictions.

 

[pwjohn]

The states won't. Civil marriage is not going to disappear, and since that's the case, same sex marriage retains the right of equal protection under civil marriage laws.

...while polygamy does not....

You'd better get to work on that one...and fast... Don't let the two gals in AZ beat you to it.

Polygamy is a good example

Polygamy was an accepted practice of the Mormon Church. The "Government" forced them to abandon the practice.

Isn't that the Government FORCING you to go against your religion?

They never stopped.