Cheney Calls for full Release of Memos

[jreeves]

If waterboarding is so effective then why didn't Khalid Sheikh Mohammed lead us to bin Laden despite 183 drownings?

He probably didn't know where Bin Laden was.

Yet it took them 183 times to figure out they had the wrong guy?

That's the problem with torture.

No they stopped a second 9/11 by waterboarding him. Read the 2005 Justice Department memo....

 

[jreeves]

First - your own argument is a bit of a strawman. On the one side you have outlaws practicing beheadings. On the other, you have an attempt to justify a legally sanctioned government program of torture. No one is arguing that what the outlaws do is horrible and wrong - but you are attempting to use that to justify an acceptance of anything up to that point. As long as "we aren't quite as bad as they are it's ok". But it's not. Torture degrades both the dispenser and the recipient and worse, it eats away at the moral fiber of the entire society that condones it out of fear or retribution.


Torture is a slippery slope. Once you start justifying it by putting it within a legal framework - where do you stop?

It's not torture by definition....that's where your argument falls apart.

Uh uh. Now you are playing games with semantics in an attempt to justify something that is normally reprehensible.

Uh now a word's meaning means nothing. It must be a happy world you live in.

 

[Maple]

I love that quote by Winston Churchill it could not have been said better.

 

[jreeves]

"If Sean Hannity allows me to waterboard him based on the criteria and guidelines that have come out in these memos, I'm willing to bet that I will be able to coerce Sean Hannity. In fact, I am even willing to bet that I will be able to get Sean Hannity to say that Countdown with Keith Olbermann is his favorite show." - Mike Ritz, former Sere School instructor

No one is arguing that waterboarding isn't effective but that waterboarding is somehow torture.

What?

No one is arguing that waterboarding isn't effective

Are you trying to say that we all agree that waterboarding is effective?

Or are you saying that "waterboarding isn't effective"?

Because if you are saying that waterboarding is effective at obtaining "information", even if that information is a blatant lie (Hannity saying that Countdown is his favorite show), then it is NOT effective at obtaining useful information.

And if you are admitting that "waterboarding isn't effective", then in essence, our government is just doing it for shits and giggles.

Either way, you've dug yourself a hole from which you will not be able to climb out.

Waterboarding is almost always 100 percent effective. Hannity would have stated Countdown was his favorite show if it in fact was. Read the previous post, the 2005 Justice department memo for clarification.

 

[Coyote]

He probably didn't know where Bin Laden was.

Yet it took them 183 times to figure out they had the wrong guy?

That's the problem with torture.

No they stopped a second 9/11 by waterboarding him. Read the 2005 Justice Department memo....

Given that the DoJ is severely compromised by politicization scandals along with its attempt to legally sanction and justify torture - I question how credible that memo is?

2008 - Bush’s FBI Director Said Torture Didn’t Foil Any Terror Plots

 

[Maple]

Bring on the prosecution and let the truth come out.

 

[Coyote]

It's not torture by definition....that's where your argument falls apart.

Uh uh. Now you are playing games with semantics in an attempt to justify something that is normally reprehensible.

Uh now a word's meaning means nothing. It must be a happy world you live in.

It's not my world we are talking about - it's the one where a political administration and it's team of lawyers sit down and attempt to alter the long accepted definition of a word.

I'm not sure I'd call that "happy"..."twisted" is more like it.

 

[Coyote]

Waterboarding is almost always 100 percent effective. Hannity would have stated Countdown was his favorite show if it in fact was. Read the previous post, the 2005 Justice department memo for clarification.

I'd like to see some actual stats on that - not some political memo.

 

[jreeves]

Uh uh. Now you are playing games with semantics in an attempt to justify something that is normally reprehensible.

Uh now a word's meaning means nothing. It must be a happy world you live in.

It's not my world we are talking about - it's the one where a political administration and it's team of lawyers sit down and attempt to alter the long accepted definition of a word.

I'm not sure I'd call that "happy"..."twisted" is more like it.

Hmmm...Guess the Office of Legislative Counsel was conspiring with the President too?

 

[Coyote]

Uh now a word's meaning means nothing. It must be a happy world you live in.

It's not my world we are talking about - it's the one where a political administration and it's team of lawyers sit down and attempt to alter the long accepted definition of a word.

I'm not sure I'd call that "happy"..."twisted" is more like it.

Hmmm...Guess the Office of Legislative Counsel was conspiring with the President too?

Apparently. I wouldn't say "conspire" - but they all wanted a legal rationalization that allowed for torture. The first step is redefining it from torture to "enhanced interrogation techniques".

But a rose by any other name is still a rose.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Uh now a word's meaning means nothing. It must be a happy world you live in.

It's not my world we are talking about - it's the one where a political administration and it's team of lawyers sit down and attempt to alter the long accepted definition of a word.

I'm not sure I'd call that "happy"..."twisted" is more like it.

Hmmm...Guess the Office of Legislative Counsel was conspiring with the President too?

Probably......Remember Alberto Gonzalez?

 

[xotoxi]

It's not my world we are talking about - it's the one where a political administration and it's team of lawyers sit down and attempt to alter the long accepted definition of a word.

I'm not sure I'd call that "happy"..."twisted" is more like it.

Hmmm...Guess the Office of Legislative Counsel was conspiring with the President too?

Probably......Remember Alberto Gonzalez?

Tony G is in da house!

 

[jreeves]

It's not my world we are talking about - it's the one where a political administration and it's team of lawyers sit down and attempt to alter the long accepted definition of a word.

I'm not sure I'd call that "happy"..."twisted" is more like it.

Hmmm...Guess the Office of Legislative Counsel was conspiring with the President too?

Apparently. I wouldn't say "conspire" - but they all wanted a legal rationalization that allowed for torture. The first step is redefining it from torture to "enhanced interrogation techniques".

But a rose by any other name is still a rose.

The very definition of torture begs to differ with you, nothing is severe or extremely pain inducing about waterboarding. Its seems, that 4 directors of the CIA agree with me.

 

[jreeves]

It's not my world we are talking about - it's the one where a political administration and it's team of lawyers sit down and attempt to alter the long accepted definition of a word.

I'm not sure I'd call that "happy"..."twisted" is more like it.

Hmmm...Guess the Office of Legislative Counsel was conspiring with the President too?

Probably......Remember Alberto Gonzalez?

Umm...Gonzalez was in the executive branch, the Office of Legislative Counsel works for Congress.....

Are you confused?

 

[DiveCon]

Hmmm...Guess the Office of Legislative Counsel was conspiring with the President too?

Probably......Remember Alberto Gonzalez?

Umm...Gonzalez was in the executive branch, the Office of Legislative Counsel works for Congress.....

Are you confused?

of course he is

 

[jreeves]

Yet it took them 183 times to figure out they had the wrong guy?

That's the problem with torture.

No they stopped a second 9/11 by waterboarding him. Read the 2005 Justice Department memo....

Given that the DoJ is severely compromised by politicization scandals along with its attempt to legally sanction and justify torture - I question how credible that memo is?

2008 - Bush’s FBI Director Said Torture Didn’t Foil Any Terror Plots

So Mueller the FBI director is critical of a method used by the CIA. Shocking....

 

[jreeves]

I love that quote by Winston Churchill it could not have been said better.

Thank you, I like that quote myself.

 

[jreeves]

I'd like to see some actual stats on that - not some political memo.

DOJ memo on the subject isn't political. But if you would like to see more, ask Obama to release the rest of the CIA memos on waterboarding.

 

[DiveCon]

i think that if they are going to release ANY of these memos, they should release them all
that way we can get the full story, and not just a cherry picked one

 

[Iriemon]

No they stopped a second 9/11 by waterboarding him. Read the 2005 Justice Department memo....

Given that the DoJ is severely compromised by politicization scandals along with its attempt to legally sanction and justify torture - I question how credible that memo is?

2008 - Bush’s FBI Director Said Torture Didn’t Foil Any Terror Plots

So Mueller the FBI director is critical of a method used by the CIA. Shocking....

Why, is your point he would be biased because of inter-agency rivalry?