Christian bakers who refused cake order for gay wedding forced to close shop

[Foxfyre]

If I was the baker, I would have delivered the wedding cake. I have attended gay weddings. I have employed gay people and worked with gay people and have a best friend who is quite gay. The gay couple who live next door are some of our favorite neighbors.

But I am frankly saddened and discouraged that so many people I thought to be reasonable and thoughtful posters have no problem with destroying somebody just because of the opinions they hold.

God help us if this becomes the norm in America. We will be no different than militant Islam or the Inquisition who punished heretics in terrible ways.

 

[Skull Pilot]

And what gives you the moral superiority to judge these people in what they are and are not to consider sin?

I am not taking a moral stance here. never was. The term bigot is defined



The simple fact is they pissed off a large enough segment of their market and their community with their bigotry so as to lose good will in the end that's all a business has.



It had nothing to do with their beliefs and everything to do with their bigotry. As I said they didn't have to attend the wedding or the reception all they had to do was make a cake and set it up in a reception hall. Hell they could have said that the couple needed to buy and place their own topper on the cake to avoid the gay sin.

But they chose to take a stand for whatever reason and I don't believe it was moral because as I said I'm sure they made and delivered cakes for people who weren't married in church sanctioned ceremonies and therefore were also committing a sin.





Comparing those groups to the homosexual community is a bit of a stretch.

As Katz pointed out they didn't refuse service to the couple. They just didn't want to attend a gay wedding at another location. That should be their right as much as it should be any of our right to not be forced to go to something we can't condone.

And as I pointed out they didn't have to attend the wedding or the reception all they had to do was set the cake up in the reception hall and leave.

The baker does not usually attend the wedding ceremony or the reception. No baker I have ever known did and I never saw the cake maker at any wedding I ever attended unless of course that baker was on the guest list.

You have never seen a large wedding cake assembled have you. It isn't done at the bakery. It is done at the reception.

It's done BEFORE the reception starts. The cake is always there when the guests arrive. As I said my aunt used to bake wedding cakes for people all the time and i used to help her deliver them and set them up we never once were in the reception hall after the party started.

So the "I don't want to attend the gay wedding or reception " excuse just doesn't cut it.

The baker had no problem baking a cake. But it was his moral conviction that it would be a sin for him to attend even the preparations for the reception.

Yeah the gay sin might rub off if he steps in the same building.

That may sound stupid and unreasonable to you. But there is no law against convictions that make no sense to us no matter who holds them.

I never said there should be a law in fact if you bothered to read my posts I said that any business owner has the right to refuse service to anyone as far as I'm concerned. But then they can't whine about the consequences if their actions piss off enough people.

Will you answer my question whether the baker should be required to deliver a cake to:

The Westboro Baptist church?

A KKK convention?
A cock fight or dog fight?
Rush Limbaugh's birthday party?

IBID. If any of those groups had enough community support so as to lose the same amount of good will then that again is a consequence of decision not to serve them.

Or would there be the same degree of outrage if he refused to deliver a cake to those places based on moral convictions?

IBID

 

[Katzndogz]

There are so many ways the bakery could have resolved this to their own satisfaction had they just thought ahead. Get the names of cake decorators willing to go to same sex weddings. Jo-Anns teaches cake decorating, they probably have a number of them who know how to construct those tiers. Tell the couple that the bakery is willing to bake the cake but will not provide the topper. The work at the venue has to be done by an outside contractor, give them a list of names and tell them to make their own arrangements. The cake can be picked up by either the decorator or the parties.

Now that individuals know what can happen to them for opposing the gay mafia, they should all be investigating what courses of action are still available for religious freedom.

 

[Katzndogz]

I am frankly saddened and discouraged that so many people I thought to be reasonable and thoughtful posters have no problem with destroying somebody just because of the opinions they hold.

God help us if this becomes the norm in America. We will be no different than militant Islam or the Inquisition who punished heretics in terrible ways.

Too late. IT IS the norm in America today.

These people weren't merely forced out of business by a customer boycott. They were being investigated by state agencies. In Colorado it's jail time for exercising religious rights.

http://www.examiner.com/article/col...ail-for-refusing-to-make-cake-for-gay-wedding

What you're afraid of has already happened. The next step is the jihadist burning of the Churches.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I am frankly saddened and discouraged that so many people I thought to be reasonable and thoughtful posters have no problem with destroying somebody just because of the opinions they hold.

God help us if this becomes the norm in America. We will be no different than militant Islam or the Inquisition who punished heretics in terrible ways.

You have an issue with a community deciding to use or not use a business after the public is made aware of their business practices?

Remember this business closed its retail shop because of no action of the government, they closed because of lost revenue once they discriminatory proactice was made public.

I'm for free market. What is your solution?



(BTW - I'm not joyful about what are basically good people who made a business decision that the community did support were damaged, but choices have consequences.)

>>>>

 

[Skull Pilot]

Gay rights go far FAR beyond gay marriage. It's a whole re-educative political agenda. Is about making people feel bad for being "homophobic". The definition of homophobia is changing and it will ultimately include people (and churches and businessmen) who oppose gay marriage.

When there is no legit reason to oppose marriage, one must wonder if the opposition is not, in fact, homophobia.

That is exactly what I meant by drawing a bulls eye on the perceived politically incorrect. Label them, then attack them because they don't believe what you believe.
Is there anyone else you insist the owners of their own business serve? KKK? Black Panthers? Politicians? Maybe you should make a list for them so they'll know how you want them to run their affairs?

We are drawing a chalk outline around freedom.

I don't know how many times I have to say this.

IMO any business has the right to refuse service for whatever reason.

But the caveat is they have to suffer the consequences if that refusal pisses off a large enough segment of the market or community.

I don't think the KKK is a large enough sector of the market and or the community that refusing them service would result in the same ends.

And seriously why didn't all the other gay fearing christians in the area flock to this bakery to support them? Seems to me that they had a lot more gay customers than they thought.

 

[Foxfyre]

I am frankly saddened and discouraged that so many people I thought to be reasonable and thoughtful posters have no problem with destroying somebody just because of the opinions they hold.

God help us if this becomes the norm in America. We will be no different than militant Islam or the Inquisition who punished heretics in terrible ways.

Too late. IT IS the norm in America today.

These people weren't merely forced out of business by a customer boycott. They were being investigated by state agencies. In Colorado it's jail time for exercising religious rights.

Colorado baker faces year in jail for refusing to make cake for gay wedding - National Crime & Courts | Examiner.com

What you're afraid of has already happened. The next step is the jihadist burning of the Churches.

I think you might be right. If so, this is no longer American, home of the free.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I am frankly saddened and discouraged that so many people I thought to be reasonable and thoughtful posters have no problem with destroying somebody just because of the opinions they hold.

God help us if this becomes the norm in America. We will be no different than militant Islam or the Inquisition who punished heretics in terrible ways.

Too late. IT IS the norm in America today.

These people weren't merely forced out of business by a customer boycott. They were being investigated by state agencies. In Colorado it's jail time for exercising religious rights.

Colorado baker faces year in jail for refusing to make cake for gay wedding - National Crime & Courts | Examiner.com

What you're afraid of has already happened. The next step is the jihadist burning of the Churches.

I think you might be right. If so, this is no longer American, home of the free.

It'd be the same if they refused a black couple, a jewish couple, etc etc etc etc

And again I don't agree with the jail time thing for refusing service just the whining about the consequences of said refusal.

 

[Moonglow]

I am frankly saddened and discouraged that so many people I thought to be reasonable and thoughtful posters have no problem with destroying somebody just because of the opinions they hold.

God help us if this becomes the norm in America. We will be no different than militant Islam or the Inquisition who punished heretics in terrible ways.

Too late. IT IS the norm in America today.

These people weren't merely forced out of business by a customer boycott. They were being investigated by state agencies. In Colorado it's jail time for exercising religious rights.

Colorado baker faces year in jail for refusing to make cake for gay wedding - National Crime & Courts | Examiner.com

What you're afraid of has already happened. The next step is the jihadist burning of the Churches.

No, it's against the law to discriminate. Christians have been discriminating for centuries and it's about time they were stopped.

 

[Moonglow]

I am frankly saddened and discouraged that so many people I thought to be reasonable and thoughtful posters have no problem with destroying somebody just because of the opinions they hold.

God help us if this becomes the norm in America. We will be no different than militant Islam or the Inquisition who punished heretics in terrible ways.

Too late. IT IS the norm in America today.

These people weren't merely forced out of business by a customer boycott. They were being investigated by state agencies. In Colorado it's jail time for exercising religious rights.

Colorado baker faces year in jail for refusing to make cake for gay wedding - National Crime & Courts | Examiner.com

What you're afraid of has already happened. The next step is the jihadist burning of the Churches.

I think you might be right. If so, this is no longer American, home of the free.

It's more free now than when the Christians had a stranglehold on society.

 

[Katzndogz]

I am frankly saddened and discouraged that so many people I thought to be reasonable and thoughtful posters have no problem with destroying somebody just because of the opinions they hold.

God help us if this becomes the norm in America. We will be no different than militant Islam or the Inquisition who punished heretics in terrible ways.

Too late. IT IS the norm in America today.

These people weren't merely forced out of business by a customer boycott. They were being investigated by state agencies. In Colorado it's jail time for exercising religious rights.

Colorado baker faces year in jail for refusing to make cake for gay wedding - National Crime & Courts | Examiner.com

What you're afraid of has already happened. The next step is the jihadist burning of the Churches.

I think you might be right. If so, this is no longer American, home of the free.

The Wildflower Inn in Vermont has a court order that it must never again have a wedding at their venue, gay or straight as a result of the actions of the gay mafia.

Christians should impose their own limitations that allow for very private parties, BEFORE they get a court order.

 

[RKMBrown]

Existing marriage laws defining marriage as one man and one woman discriminated against nobody. They did not discriminate based on race, creed, ethncitiy, age, socioeconomic status, or sexual orientation. Every man, woman, and child was treated exactly the same under the existing laws.

You appear to be a person of reason on most topics.

However, please recognize that your statement here is a circular argument.

You are attempting to prove "marriage laws defining marriage as one man and one woman discriminated against nobody" because "every man, woman, and child was treated exactly the same under the existing laws."

Your supposition, thus, is that laws discriminating against a particular group, in this case gays, are ok because everyone is treated the same. Your supposition is that it's ok to discriminate based on sexual orientation, because they don't have to have a sexual orientation that the law discriminates against.

Your argument attempts, poorly, to defend discrimination as long as everyone is discriminated against in the same way. But the law did not ban all marriages irregardless of sexual orientation did it? Nope. It discriminated only against gay couples, because the majority believed at some point in time that discriminating against gay couples was good for society.

I double dog dare you to answer to your support of discriminating against gays.

[MENTION=6847]Foxfyre[/MENTION] I triple dog dare you to answer to your support of discriminating against gays.

 

[Kondor3]

"...(BTW - I'm not joyful about what are basically good people who made a business decision that the community did support were damaged, but choices have consequences.)"

The "community", as in the Community-at-Large, or the Gay Community, which is a miniscule subset of the larger one, in the vast majority of locales which one might name?

If their 'Community' is like most communities, then, I seriously doubt that the vast majority of folks in that community had Clue One, as to what was going on at the time.

 

[Moonglow]

Certainly Christians have no problem when it is Christians doing mafia things.

 

[Skull Pilot]

"...(BTW - I'm not joyful about what are basically good people who made a business decision that the community did support were damaged, but choices have consequences.)"

The "community", as in the Community-at-Large, or the Gay Community, which is a miniscule subset of the larger one, in the vast majority of locales which one might name?

If their 'Community' is like most communities, then, I seriously doubt that the vast majority of folks in that community had Clue One, as to what was going on at the time.

It doesn't matter. They pissed off enough people gay or not and I'm willing to bet some of the people that are refusing to give their business to the baker are straight and are acting on their beliefs so shouldn't the baker be supporting them as he wants to be supported for acting on his beliefs?

Face it attitudes are changing and fewer and fewer people will tolerate attitudes like the baker's. I know I would not patronize that bakery if it were in my neighborhood because I don't like bigots.

 

[Dot Com]

I've never heard of a "christian baker" Do they have a giant crucifix on their sign? Did they only cater to christians and was that in writing?

 

[Vandalshandle]

We all know about the dangers of 'lions, tigers, and bears, OH MY!", but now, we also have to worry about the "gay mafia"! I'm having a hard time visulizing this. Would this be a bunch of wise guys wearing back shirts and pink ties, packing pearl handled Derringers?

 

[Dot Com]

I am frankly saddened and discouraged that so many people I thought to be reasonable and thoughtful posters have no problem with destroying somebody just because of the opinions they hold.

God help us if this becomes the norm in America. We will be no different than militant Islam or the Inquisition who punished heretics in terrible ways.

Too late. IT IS the norm in America today.

These people weren't merely forced out of business by a customer boycott. They were being investigated by state agencies. In Colorado it's jail time for exercising religious rights.

Colorado baker faces year in jail for refusing to make cake for gay wedding - National Crime & Courts | Examiner.com

What you're afraid of has already happened. The next step is the jihadist burning of the Churches.

I think you might be right. If so, this is no longer American, home of the free.

The rw, hyperbole queen (2nd maybe to Katzndogz) peeks her head out from the coffee shop to make a post

 

[Foxfyre]

You appear to be a person of reason on most topics.

However, please recognize that your statement here is a circular argument.

You are attempting to prove "marriage laws defining marriage as one man and one woman discriminated against nobody" because "every man, woman, and child was treated exactly the same under the existing laws."

Your supposition, thus, is that laws discriminating against a particular group, in this case gays, are ok because everyone is treated the same. Your supposition is that it's ok to discriminate based on sexual orientation, because they don't have to have a sexual orientation that the law discriminates against.

Your argument attempts, poorly, to defend discrimination as long as everyone is discriminated against in the same way. But the law did not ban all marriages irregardless of sexual orientation did it? Nope. It discriminated only against gay couples, because the majority believed at some point in time that discriminating against gay couples was good for society.

I double dog dare you to answer to your support of discriminating against gays.

[MENTION=6847]Foxfyre[/MENTION] I triple dog dare you to answer to your support of discriminating against gays.

I don't and have never supported discriminating against gays.

The marriage laws were written to protect children pure and simple; i.e. being aware of any communicable diseases, age limitations, restrictions on marrying persons too closely related, etc. Most are rules and regs that are entirely unnecessary in a same sex marriage.

Otherwise there would be no need for marriage laws of any kind. But children do require one man and one woman to create same, and while single parents or gay parents can be great parents, children nevertheless benefit from having a loving mother and father, i.e. positive role models from each gender, in the home.

Further, though there are always exceptions, the traditional family is the surest safeguard against child poverty, it helps keep track of the genetic blood lines that might be important to know, it promotes more stable, more affluent, more safe, and more aesthetically pleasing quality of life, and most societies have found it promotes the general welfare to encourage traditional marriage.

Nobody was discriminated against in the marriage laws that existed in all 50 states. You didn't have to be 'in love' to get married. You could be of any race, any ethnicity, any sexual orientation, etc. etc. etc. The requirement was purely that a marriage consisted of one man and one woman who were not married to anybody else, who were at least a certain age, and who were not too closely related. You cannot change the definition of something without making it into something different than it was.

Did that mean that people, straight or gay, who for whatever reason could not or did not want to marry were somewhat disadvantaged over people who could and did marry? Yes it did. Which is why I have long been an active hands on up close and personal advocate for laws that would help other people form family units with the tax and social and economic advantages that married people have enjoyed. That way we get everybody what they need and leave traditional marriage intact.

Does that make me a bigot? Ya'll think you should picket my place of business, threaten me and my friends and family and customers, threaten my suppliers? Destroy me. Wreck me financially? All because most of you do not agree with my views on this?

If you think so, in my opinion you are far more evil and dangerous than a fundamentalist Christian baker will ever be.

 

[Euroconservativ]

Bar owner fined $400,000:
Bar owner fined for banning transgender patrons | Local News | The Seattle Times

Colorado baker faces year in jail for refusing to make cake for gay wedding - National Crime & Courts | Examiner.com


But this lady was portrayed as a hero:
Martha Boggs, Tennessee Restaurant Owner Who Kicked Out Senator Stacey Campfield For Anti-Gay Remarks, Describes Encounter