Christian bakers who refused cake order for gay wedding forced to close shop

[paperview]

Don't worry Immie, some people don't understand that you can discuss how a law functions, why a law was created, and the impact of such a law without agreeing that the law should be in place.

Some people are so wrapped up with justifying a religious exemption for the law they miss the larger issue. When the argument is, which some of the most ardent protesters here seem to be sayings, (and I paraphrase) "Public Accommodation laws are a good thing, except when it's my ox being gored, then it's an Evil thing." What they mean in general is that they support big government and it's justification for Public Accommodation laws, they just don't think their brand of discrimination should be covered by such laws. It relinquishes then the very principal that it is a function of government.

The true issue, IMHO, is that it is a private property issue and that private businesses in general should not be subject to such laws based on property ownership. There shouldn't be "special privileges" just for claims of a religious view. If such exemptions are granted then anyone can claim their personal religious views are such-n-such and be exempt from the law.


>>>>

Quoting...to sandwich your words around a perfect gored ox post.

 

[TemplarKormac]

#1 - I didn't say the repair shop owner was a Christian.

#2 - In which religion the individual ascribes to important in determining whether they can refuse service or goods based on religious grounds?

#3 - The question was "Could a Auto Repair shop simply claim - as a matter of their personal faith - that his God (or Gods) has spoken to him and says he shouldn't fix the cars of black people?". If the repair shop owner offers services to customer's should the by able to claim a "special privilege" for a religious exemption for serving blacks?

#4 - If the auto shop provides road side repair can they say no in shop service for black and no road side service for blacks yet provide those services to whites?

#5 - The "Cockfighting" is a strawman not part of the question, it is an obvious throw in to deflect from the core question which has to do with declining service based on race and not based on illegal activity.

As I made clear in my previous response, unless the person has a religious objection based on reality, then by law they should be required to accommodate anyone willing to pay for their service. The crux of this entire matter is their religious objection. It is a non sequitur to argue about race as it pertains to religion and public accommodation. I abhor racism, but I despise religious intolerance, conversely. And once again, these examples are flawed. God does not personally speak to one individual and command him or her to do his bidding, namely to discriminate against someone out of spite. One has to possess an explicit knowledge of the faith and of God himself to even attempt to render such a theory. I am a Christian myself, and the only things God has told me to do can be found in the bible, not in direct divinations from the Almighty himself.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Heh. They got punked.

Sweet Cakes By Melissa, Oregon Bakery That Refused Lesbian Couple, Pranked By Undercover Reporter

"I was wondering if you could do two little cakes. My friend is a researcher at OHSU and she just got a grant for cloning human stem cells, so I thought I’d get her two identical cakes—basically, two little clone cakes. How much would they cost?" the covert reporter asked an employee at Sweet Cakes By Melissa in Gresham, Ore.

“Ha. All right. When are you looking to do it? It’ll be $25.99 each, so about $50 to start," a bakery employee told the reporter, according to The Willamette Week.

In addition to agreeing to make a cake for a "pagan solstice party" (the reporter requested a pentagram of icing on the cake), Sweet Cakes also agreed to make custom cakes for a divorce party and a party for a woman who'd had multiple babies out of wedlock, the paper notes.

So anything goes!

Just not teh gheys.

Pretty sure they rejected the wedding because it contradicted THEIR PERSONAL BELIEFS, not because it contradicted any conservative political platform, let alone one as perceived by the left. Who are you to tell them what their personal beliefs have to be?

 

[Sunshine]

Christian bakers who refused cake order for gay wedding forced to close shop - Washington Times

A year ago I would have said 'good.' But actually seeing that it happened, - I don't like how this feels. They shouldn't have been treated as they have been treated, not in my estimation.

Some of those threats were shocking. One emailer wished for the couple’s children to fall ill. Another expressed hope that Mr. Klein should be shot and even raped, The Blaze reported.

And yet another wrote: “Here’s hoping you go out of business, you bigot.”
The couple said on top of that, their vendors were “badgered and harassed” into stopping all associations with the bakery.

The Kleins say they’re now closing up their doors and moving their operations to their home. Their business, they say, has suffered a serious revenue hit from the unexpected activism and backlash.

Looks like they need a Chik-Fil-A-type support system.

Yeah, that tolerance is really shining through.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It's their own fault. People have the right to refuse to buy from them, which they did, and they are complaining about it?
Get over it. Your business closed its doors because of your backward opinions, and that vile Facebook post didn't help matters.

It's "people exercising their right to refuse to buy" when assholes call their vendors and issue threats? Really? That's what passes for a free market where you come from?

Oh, I forgot. That probably IS what passes for freedom in that benighted pisshole you call a country.

Get over it. Their business closed because leftists are intolerant, bigoted, close-minded, tyrannical, jack-booted, hypocritical asshats who want to feel morally superior to everyone else without ever doing the work of actually acquiring a moral standard.

I'm just WAITING for the next time a homosexual (I'm certainly not calling these humorless, self-absorbed pieces of shit "gay") starts whining at me about "tolerance". I'm a big believer in the Golden Rule Corollary: Treat others the way you want to be treated, and then get treated the way you've demonstrated you want.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Nope. Don't have to like, just have to abide by the law.

Christians don't have much of a history of abiding by evil and immoral laws. Just ask the Nazis and Soviets.

I was almost prepared to respect you for that whole nanosecond that you felt ashamed of the abysmal way your colleagues acted . . . but then you found an excuse to make it okay for them to act ten times worse than the behavior they were stamping their Gucci heels about, so now I'm back to thinking you're a puswad.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Nope. Don't have to like, just have to abide by the law.

Which they didn't, and they blame everyone else but themselves. Hypocrites.

You think that's hypocrisy? Maybe your definitions are screwed because they don't speak real English where you are. Let me tell you what REAL hypocrisy is.

"You don't want to sell me a wedding cake. You're hateful and intolerant. I'm going to get all my friends to make death threats and scare your vendors, so that you go out of business!"

THAT, my dear dimwit, is hypocrisy. You don't demand that someone else "tolerate" you by putting them out of business.

I'm just waiting for you to tell me that only Noomi-approved "correct" thinking deserves to be tolerated.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Do fags have to abide by the law?

The homosexual couple were not in the wrong here. The bakers were.

Shockingly, NORMAL people - you know, the ones with moral standards - would consider it wrong to send people messages like “People like you will burn in HELL, you racist pigs“ and “Do everyone a favor and fall off a cliff" and “Honey it would take a lot to make your ugly a** look good! You are ugly inside and out!” and “Maybe your god will send you some cat food to eat when you are living on the street?”

Decent people - which apparently is a designation that doesn't include homosexuals, and thank you all for clarifying this for all time - just go find another bakery that WANTS to be part of their ceremony, rather than trying to force people to participate. Do they also have the right to frogmarch a church choir in to sing for them?

 

[Cecilie1200]

When gay bars, clubs, coffee shops and restaurants refuse entry to women( pun not intended) should women boycott those venues?
Is there a law preventing such elitist segregation?
Reports of increasing assaults in PTown MA against the local fishing community.
The breeders are being forced out.

You have gay bars that ban women? Really? All the gay bars around here appreciate the large amount of money they make off of women who like hanging around with gay men and not getting hit on. And most of them are gay/lesbian mixed clientele, anyway.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Although I'm a non-believer, I'm wondering why separation of Church and State does not apply in this situation?
Essentially the government is allowing persons who have different, and perhaps higher moral standards, to be discriminated against and even threatened physically.
The practical solution to the disagreement should have been for the couple to seek the services desired from another bakery in the competitive marketplace.
The Kleins, in my opinion, have legal grounds to seek and receive damages as a result of the actions taken against them in exercising their 1st Amendment right.

Separation of church and state does not come into this because the state didn’t do a damn thing. Read the article, the state did not do the forcing. Boycotts and activists made the business unprofitable and it failed. What happened was EXACTLY what should have happened barring the threats.

The threats were wrong and should be looked into but the actual outcome was from people properly taking this into their own hands and decrying a business that was acting like bigots.

Any threats by people against the baking couple are wrong and need to be investigated.

Any boycotts and people using their free speech to castigate them for their bigotry and violating the law is fair game.

Nothing wrong with boycotts, but when you use the government to force people to go against thier religous beliefs, then there is a problem.

Very true. This case has nothing to do with the government though. The government is NOT what forced this couple to close shop so the point is rather irrelevant to this particular case.

Actually, the state of Oregon is still pursuing an investigation against the Kleins for violating their "anti-discrimination" law, which apparently requires that you have no right to decide for whom you wish to work. And it is this blatantly Unconstitutional law that empowered the homosexual gutter trash of Oregon to hound and harass and threaten these people, instead of just going and finding another bakery the way REAL people would have.

 

[Cecilie1200]

They are closing the retail outlet, not going out of business. What this baker is doing is exactly what she should be doing, selling her goods privately. She won't lose any customers, they will still buy from her with direct sales. She will find stores and other outlets for sales. Meanwhile, she will have no overhead. The gay couple STILL could not force her to bake their cake and now the baker won't have the question come up anymore. She kept her business and her freedom of religion. It turned out exactly the way it should.

No, the way it SHOULD have turned out would be for the lesbians to act like human beings instead of twats on legs and just take their business to someone who WANTED to participate in their wedding, instead of trying to bludgeon people into approving of them. If the dumb bitches REALLY believed that their life choices were normal and acceptable and okay, they wouldn't feel the need to destroy anyone who disagrees with them. Way to telegraph to the world that YOU think you're a deviant, too.

 

[Cecilie1200]

A business should cater to those with money in their pockets and keep their religion checked at the church door.

A business should be whatever the people who own it want it to be, not what YOU think they should be. Who are you to dictate that everyone has to be about soulless greed and profit? Thought you libs didn't like that shit.

 

[Cecilie1200]

This is just like limbaugh/beck losing listeners and just like the increase of business to Chick filet.

Don't blame gays for this. People can choose where to spend their money.

Also note that this is not gays boycotting. There aren't enough gays in the entire country to make up for straights who simply stopped shopping there.

Apparently, there ARE enough gays in Oregon to make people afraid of violence if they don't withdraw their business, though. I know you'd love to pretend that your ilk didn't just reveal itself as vicious, intolerant bigots in giant, Day-Glo lettering, but you don't get to pretend there were no threats and intimidation.

This is who your side is, and this is my answer when you whine about how you need to be "tolerated": You get what you put out, so burn in hell, pig.

Have a nice day.

 

[Cecilie1200]

You know, I'm getting kind of sick of gay people. I've never had any real issue with gay people, have had friends who were gay, etc. But the more I hear about them, the more I don't want to hear about them.

Just STFU gay people. I don't care about your aberration.

P.S. To whom it may concern: Look up the word "aberration" before getting on my case. Because if you don't think two men wanting to fondle each other isn't a departure from what is normal or typical, well I don't know what is. Doesn't make it wrong (I have to say that). Just makes it a departure from the norm. As in "abnormal."

Oh, and for those of you who have been trying to peg me as a "liberal" lately...how liberal was this comment?

i agree...i am getting sick of the forced agenda ....onto others. The ONLY reason they wanted this baker to make their cake was for the publicity.


i am totally against not being able to tell anyone for any reason..... you will not service them.

Yeah, well, I have news for the flip-floppy bleeding hearts on the right who want to say, "Oh, we should just let gays have marriage/civil unions. It's JUST about them being in love and being together!" No, the push for legalized gay marriage is about THIS. It's about doing EXACTLY this to anyone and everyone who DARES to publicly diverge from their party line.

I don't give a tin shit what sort of private arrangements people make in regards to their relationships, so long as everyone is legal and consenting, but THIS is why I oppose giving out legal sanctions willy-nilly: because I know that it's just an attempt to oppress everyone else.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I'm kind of stunned. Floored, rather.

When I posted earlier, I was thinking "I have friends and family who are Christian. Would I want their business to go south because they stood by their beliefs?"

But if that's really from her page, then this would be karma. You can't put that level of hate and ugly out into the universe and not get back more of the same.

Yes, if that is really her page. It was so harsh that I have my reservations.

Same. Too much trying. Either hacked, or shopped.

Oh, but you were so quick to believe it when you first saw it, because it enabled you to ignore what utter, disgusting filth your side of the argument had proven itself to be.

Guess THAT kneejerk went a bit wrong, huh?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Do fags have to abide by the law?

The homosexual couple were not in the wrong here. The bakers were.

agreed.... the bakers should have said they were booked up and could not take any more orders.

So you think people should exercise their First Amendment rights by lying, rather than by simply claiming them as their rights? Interesting.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Okay, well; now that you're done making it all about you, care to discuss the subject of the OP?

the idea was to force them out of business....or kowtow to their gay agenda.

That's what I told somebody by PM. Fine, you want to 'teach them a lesson' or whatever, spread the word, take your money and walk, etc. But going after their vendors (in my estimation) - they went too far. That meant they couldn't honor the jobs they did have.

I don't even have a problem, necessarily, with contacting vendors and saying, "Are you aware that this company does X? I don't like that behavior, and I intend to take my business elsewhere, and I think you should, too." I have a BIG problem with behaving in a way that makes vendors literally afraid to do business with someone.

 

[Cecilie1200]

sure and why don't we go back to refusing black people a ride on the front of the bus while we are at it.

That was actually the government, not the private bus companies. Maybe you should learn your history before advocating that the government should tell businesses how to run.

Or maybe you should just shut your flapping piehole and stop trying to sound like you have any sort of moral high ground at all. You want to evoke civil rights? Really? YOU?! You're on the side of people who sent these folks' children messages like "burn in hell". That's YOUR "civil rights". That's YOUR tolerance. That's who you are. You have NOTHING to say to any of us on the subject. You own this. Enjoy it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The homosexual couple were not in the wrong here. The bakers were.

agreed.... the bakers should have said they were booked up and could not take any more orders.

Exactly!!

Yes, rather than having a country that actually espouses freedom of speech and religion, as in the Constitution, we should have a country where people hide and lie to avoid the wrath of the tyrannical minority. What a good idea.

God forbid anyone suggest that the lesbians get the fuck over themselves and find another bakery.

 

[bodecea]

agreed.... the bakers should have said they were booked up and could not take any more orders.

Exactly!!

Yes, rather than having a country that actually espouses freedom of speech and religion, as in the Constitution, we should have a country where people hide and lie to avoid the wrath of the tyrannical minority. What a good idea.

God forbid anyone suggest that the lesbians get the fuck over themselves and find another bakery.

What are the laws in that state on equal access?