"Christian" Religions which reject the Trinity Doctrine

[Clement]

One time I was really stoned and Jehovah witnesses came to my door, I invited them in and impromptu read their literature out loud enthusiastically But the next time they showed up I was drunk and not in the mood. ( That was years ago in las vegas)

My ex-was Mormon. I went to church there which was a long service 3 hours. Relief Society (for women only) is like group therapy.

As a kid went to Christian Science Sunday school. I enjoyed it and learned a lot.

Currently, me and my mother visit different churches each week (church hopping). We haven't been to church since the 90's so it's kind of nice to go again.

That said, I don't understand the trinity thing either.

So cute drifter
Most people hear this stuff first,
THEN they get driven to drink and smoke.
I think you got it all in the wrong order?

There are two ways I've seen the Trinity explained that make sense to me
A. the Government analogy
we have Judicial, Legislative and Executive authority.
which all act independently they are NOT the same thing.
Yet we have ONE Government, not three.
If you can explain how we can have 3 branches of govt
with full authority to do what they do, yet there
is only ONE government, that's like how God is one,
but there are three manifestations or authorities that are separate from each other.

B. the roles
One man can be a
Father
Son
Husband or Friend
But still be ONE man not three
When we focus on God as the Creator role
then we refer to God as Father.
When we focus on God's laws of Justice
in Relationship with us as between people
or people and govt, we embody this
as Jesus or Justice for All
When we focus on unifying all people in PEACE
then this is the Holy Spirit like the
universal spirit of humanity that joins us all as one family.

If God is Love, then Love has many different types
Paternal Love of Mother and Father is different
Husband and Wife Romantic love is different
Familial love of brother and sister is different
Yet these are all LOVE

Each level of the trinity is a distinct manifestation.

It's like Mind Body Spirit.
There is only one person, but
we have the physical individual level of Body,
the next higher level of MIND or Conscience
that joins us in RELATIONS with another person.
and we have the COLLECTIVE level of spirit
that joins us with all humanity as one.

So when we are at peace and in harmony
as a whole, the mind body and spirit are ONE.
thus people are both individuals
and we are collectively one humanity
that affects each other as one body!

Does any of that explain why people
use the Trinity to represent the relationships
between individual and collective levels?
And why the central relation joining these
two other levels is so important to reconcile in peace?

Christ represents the conscience that both
joins man and man in relation with neighbors on the
earthly level we see in real life; and the connection
between man and God on spiritual higher levels
that go beyond what we see in life. We don't see
the people in China or Africa suffering, but we
know about them through faith. We are still
joined in spirit without physical proof we don't see
directly around us empirically. So in order to
balance what we can control and do in our
immediate local physical world, and the higher
goals we have as one family of all humanity
and society combined, that's why we need
to connect in peace and truth and not be in
conflict with each other. So we can work as
one team and do things that help everyone
and not hurt anyone on any level of society.

So the point of Jesus Christ being the central
connection for all humanity is to live by
Restorative Justice, by Justice and Peace for ALL.

this connects the individual person and body
with the collective level of all humanity in spirit.

Then we live as "one body" in natural harmony.
Mind body and spirit are one.
Individuals, relations, and all society/humanity are one.
We are still diverse and unique, but we are
unified at the same time. We have free will and independent thoughts and ways as individuals
but we have peace under one universal truth and law at the same time.

 

[onefour1]

Mormonism - Latter-day Saints
Founded By: Joseph Smith, Jr., 1830.
Mormons believe that God has a physical, flesh and bones, eternal, perfect body. Men have the potential to become gods as well. Jesus is God's literal son, a separate being from God the Father and the "elder brother" of men. The Holy Spirit is also a separate being from God the Father and God the Son. The Holy Spirit is regarded as an impersonal power or spirit being. These three separate beings are "one" only in their purpose, and they make up the Godhead.

Quick Primer on LDS (Mormon) Church Doctrine

Almost got this one right except the Holy Ghost is a personal being. He is a being of spirit but a spirit being has a spirit body and is in the same form as a being with a body. We believe the Holy Ghost to be an individual being separate and distinct from any other being. Thus he is a person and therefore we believe he is a personal being.

You are correct in that we do not believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are the same being. There is no evidence of this in the Bible and we believe this teaching to be created by uninspired men during the time of the great apostasy. We believe the true nature of the Godhead was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith.

 

[Clement]

Mormonism - Latter-day Saints
Founded By: Joseph Smith, Jr., 1830.
Mormons believe that God has a physical, flesh and bones, eternal, perfect body. Men have the potential to become gods as well. Jesus is God's literal son, a separate being from God the Father and the "elder brother" of men. The Holy Spirit is also a separate being from God the Father and God the Son. The Holy Spirit is regarded as an impersonal power or spirit being. These three separate beings are "one" only in their purpose, and they make up the Godhead.

Quick Primer on LDS (Mormon) Church Doctrine

Almost got this one right except the Holy Ghost is a personal being. He is a being of spirit but a spirit being has a spirit body and is in the same form as a being with a body. We believe the Holy Ghost to be an individual being separate and distinct from any other being. Thus he is a person and therefore we believe he is s personal being.

You are correct in that we do not believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are the same being. There is no evidence of this in the Bible and we believe this teaching to be created by uninspired men during the time of the great apostasy. We believe the true nature of the Godhead was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Actually your teachings are those of an uninspired man who was father away from Christ, chronologically and spiritually speaking, than Athanasius or anybody else at the Nicene council.

 

[onefour1]

The words of an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ:

The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent
Jeffrey R. Holland
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles


We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings.

As Elder Ballard noted earlier in this session, various cross-currents of our times have brought increasing public attention to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Lord told the ancients this latter-day work would be “a marvellous work and a wonder,”1 and it is. But even as we invite one and all to examine closely the marvel of it, there is one thing we would not like anyone to wonder about—that is whether or not we are “Christians.”

By and large any controversy in this matter has swirled around two doctrinal issues—our view of the Godhead and our belief in the principle of continuing revelation leading to an open scriptural canon. In addressing this we do not need to be apologists for our faith, but we would like not to be misunderstood. So with a desire to increase understanding and unequivocally declare our Christianity, I speak today on the first of those two doctrinal issues just mentioned.

Our first and foremost article of faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”2 We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true.

Indeed no less a source than the stalwart Harper’s Bible Dictionary records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].”3

So any criticism that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not hold the contemporary Christian view of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost is not a comment about our commitment to Christ but rather a recognition (accurate, I might add) that our view of the Godhead breaks with post–New Testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus Himself. Now, a word about that post–New Testament history might be helpful.

In the year A.D. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils)4 as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time. In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible.

We agree with our critics on at least that point—that such a formulation for divinity is truly incomprehensible. With such a confusing definition of God being imposed upon the church, little wonder that a fourth-century monk cried out, “Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, … and I know not whom to adore or to address.”5 How are we to trust, love, worship, to say nothing of strive to be like, One who is incomprehensible and unknowable? What of Jesus’s prayer to His Father in Heaven that “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”?6

It is not our purpose to demean any person’s belief nor the doctrine of any religion. We extend to all the same respect for their doctrine that we are asking for ours. (That, too, is an article of our faith.) But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first Christian Saints, many of whom were eyewitnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?7

We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings, noting such unequivocal illustrations as the Savior’s great Intercessory Prayer just mentioned, His baptism at the hands of John, the experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, and the martyrdom of Stephen—to name just four.

With these New Testament sources and more8 ringing in our ears, it may be redundant to ask what Jesus meant when He said, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.”9 On another occasion He said, “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”10 Of His antagonists He said, “[They have] … seen and hated both me and my Father.”11 And there is, of course, that always deferential subordination to His Father that had Jesus say, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”12 “My father is greater than I.”13

To whom was Jesus pleading so fervently all those years, including in such anguished cries as “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”14 and “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me”?15 To acknowledge the scriptural evidence that otherwise perfectly united members of the Godhead are nevertheless separate and distinct beings is not to be guilty of polytheism; it is, rather, part of the great revelation Jesus came to deliver concerning the nature of divine beings. Perhaps the Apostle Paul said it best: “Christ Jesus … being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”16

A related reason The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is excluded from the Christian category by some is because we believe, as did the ancient prophets and apostles, in an embodied—but certainly glorified—God.17 To those who criticize this scripturally based belief, I ask at least rhetorically: If the idea of an embodied God is repugnant, why are the central doctrines and singularly most distinguishing characteristics of all Christianity the Incarnation, the Atonement, and the physical Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ? If having a body is not only not needed but not desirable by Deity, why did the Redeemer of mankind redeem His body, redeeming it from the grasp of death and the grave, guaranteeing it would never again be separated from His spirit in time or eternity?18Any who dismiss the concept of an embodied God dismiss both the mortal and the resurrected Christ. No one claiming to be a true Christian will want to do that.

Now, to anyone within the sound of my voice who has wondered regarding our Christianity, I bear this witness. I testify that Jesus Christ is the literal, living Son of our literal, living God. This Jesus is our Savior and Redeemer who, under the guidance of the Father, was the Creator of heaven and earth and all things that in them are. I bear witness that He was born of a virgin mother, that in His lifetime He performed mighty miracles observed by legions of His disciples and by His enemies as well. I testify that He had power over death because He was divine but that He willingly subjected Himself to death for our sake because for a period of time He was also mortal. I declare that in His willing submission to death He took upon Himself the sins of the world, paying an infinite price for every sorrow and sickness, every heartache and unhappiness from Adam to the end of the world. In doing so He conquered both the grave physically and hell spiritually and set the human family free. I bear witness that He was literally resurrected from the tomb and, after ascending to His Father to complete the process of that Resurrection, He appeared, repeatedly, to hundreds of disciples in the Old World and in the New. I know He is the Holy One of Israel, the Messiah who will one day come again in final glory, to reign on earth as Lord of lords and King of kings. I know that there is no other name given under heaven whereby a man can be saved and that only by relying wholly upon His merits, mercy, and everlasting grace19 can we gain eternal life.

My additional testimony regarding this resplendent doctrine is that in preparation for His millennial latter-day reign, Jesus has already come, more than once, in embodied majestic glory. In the spring of 1820, a 14-year-old boy, confused by many of these very doctrines that still confuse much of Christendom, went into a grove of trees to pray. In answer to that earnest prayer offered at such a tender age, the Father and the Son appeared as embodied, glorified beings to the boy prophet Joseph Smith. That day marked the beginning of the return of the true, New Testament gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and the restoration of other prophetic truths offered from Adam down to the present day.

I testify that my witness of these things is true and that the heavens are open to all who seek the same confirmation. Through the Holy Spirit of Truth, may we all know “the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom [He has] sent.”20 Then may we live Their teachings and be true Christians in deed, as well as in word, I pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.


REFERENCES

1. 1. Isaiah 29:14.
      
      
   2. Articles of Faith 1:1.
      
      
   3. Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099; emphasis added.
      
      
   4. Constantinople, A.D. 381; Ephesus, A.D. 431; Chalcedon, A.D. 451.
      
      
   5. Quoted in Owen Chadwick, Western Asceticism (1958), 235.
      
      
   6. John 17:3; emphasis added.
      
      
   7. For a thorough discussion of this issue, see Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christian? 71–89; see also Robert Millet, Getting at the Truth (2004), 106–22.
      
      
   8. See, for example, John 12:27–30; John 14:26; Romans 8:34; Hebrews 1:1–3.
      
      
   9. John 5:19; see also John 14:10.
      
      
   10. John 6:38.
       
       
   11. John 15:24.
       
       
   12. Matthew 19:17.
       
       
   13. John 14:28.
       
       
   14. Matthew 26:39.
       
       
   15. Matthew 27:46.
       
       
   16. Philippians 2:5–6.
       
       
   17. See David L. Paulsen, “Early Christian Belief in a Corporeal Deity: Origen and Augustine as Reluctant Witnesses,” Harvard Theological Review, vol. 83, no. 2 (1990): 105–16; David L. Paulsen, “The Doctrine of Divine Embodiment: Restoration, Judeo-Christian, and Philosophical Perspectives,” BYU Studies, vol. 35, no. 4 (1996): 7–94; James L. Kugel, The God of Old: Inside the Lost World of the Bible (2003), xi–xii, 5–6, 104–6, 134–35; Clark Pinnock, Most Moved Mover: A Theology of God’s Openness (2001), 33–34.
       
       
   18. See Romans 6:9; Alma 11:45.
       
       
   19. See 1 Nephi 10:6; 2 Nephi 2:8; 31:19; Moroni 6:4; Joseph Smith Translation, Romans 3:24.
       
       
   20. John 17:3.
       

 

[Clement]

The words of an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ:

The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent
Jeffrey R. Holland
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles


We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings.

As Elder Ballard noted earlier in this session, various cross-currents of our times have brought increasing public attention to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Lord told the ancients this latter-day work would be “a marvellous work and a wonder,”1 and it is. But even as we invite one and all to examine closely the marvel of it, there is one thing we would not like anyone to wonder about—that is whether or not we are “Christians.”

By and large any controversy in this matter has swirled around two doctrinal issues—our view of the Godhead and our belief in the principle of continuing revelation leading to an open scriptural canon. In addressing this we do not need to be apologists for our faith, but we would like not to be misunderstood. So with a desire to increase understanding and unequivocally declare our Christianity, I speak today on the first of those two doctrinal issues just mentioned.

Our first and foremost article of faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”2 We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true.

Indeed no less a source than the stalwart Harper’s Bible Dictionary records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].”3

So any criticism that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not hold the contemporary Christian view of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost is not a comment about our commitment to Christ but rather a recognition (accurate, I might add) that our view of the Godhead breaks with post–New Testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus Himself. Now, a word about that post–New Testament history might be helpful.

In the year A.D. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils)4 as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time. In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible.

We agree with our critics on at least that point—that such a formulation for divinity is truly incomprehensible. With such a confusing definition of God being imposed upon the church, little wonder that a fourth-century monk cried out, “Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, … and I know not whom to adore or to address.”5 How are we to trust, love, worship, to say nothing of strive to be like, One who is incomprehensible and unknowable? What of Jesus’s prayer to His Father in Heaven that “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”?6

It is not our purpose to demean any person’s belief nor the doctrine of any religion. We extend to all the same respect for their doctrine that we are asking for ours. (That, too, is an article of our faith.) But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first Christian Saints, many of whom were eyewitnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?7

We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings, noting such unequivocal illustrations as the Savior’s great Intercessory Prayer just mentioned, His baptism at the hands of John, the experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, and the martyrdom of Stephen—to name just four.

With these New Testament sources and more8 ringing in our ears, it may be redundant to ask what Jesus meant when He said, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.”9 On another occasion He said, “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”10 Of His antagonists He said, “[They have] … seen and hated both me and my Father.”11 And there is, of course, that always deferential subordination to His Father that had Jesus say, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”12 “My father is greater than I.”13

To whom was Jesus pleading so fervently all those years, including in such anguished cries as “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”14 and “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me”?15 To acknowledge the scriptural evidence that otherwise perfectly united members of the Godhead are nevertheless separate and distinct beings is not to be guilty of polytheism; it is, rather, part of the great revelation Jesus came to deliver concerning the nature of divine beings. Perhaps the Apostle Paul said it best: “Christ Jesus … being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”16

A related reason The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is excluded from the Christian category by some is because we believe, as did the ancient prophets and apostles, in an embodied—but certainly glorified—God.17 To those who criticize this scripturally based belief, I ask at least rhetorically: If the idea of an embodied God is repugnant, why are the central doctrines and singularly most distinguishing characteristics of all Christianity the Incarnation, the Atonement, and the physical Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ? If having a body is not only not needed but not desirable by Deity, why did the Redeemer of mankind redeem His body, redeeming it from the grasp of death and the grave, guaranteeing it would never again be separated from His spirit in time or eternity?18Any who dismiss the concept of an embodied God dismiss both the mortal and the resurrected Christ. No one claiming to be a true Christian will want to do that.

Now, to anyone within the sound of my voice who has wondered regarding our Christianity, I bear this witness. I testify that Jesus Christ is the literal, living Son of our literal, living God. This Jesus is our Savior and Redeemer who, under the guidance of the Father, was the Creator of heaven and earth and all things that in them are. I bear witness that He was born of a virgin mother, that in His lifetime He performed mighty miracles observed by legions of His disciples and by His enemies as well. I testify that He had power over death because He was divine but that He willingly subjected Himself to death for our sake because for a period of time He was also mortal. I declare that in His willing submission to death He took upon Himself the sins of the world, paying an infinite price for every sorrow and sickness, every heartache and unhappiness from Adam to the end of the world. In doing so He conquered both the grave physically and hell spiritually and set the human family free. I bear witness that He was literally resurrected from the tomb and, after ascending to His Father to complete the process of that Resurrection, He appeared, repeatedly, to hundreds of disciples in the Old World and in the New. I know He is the Holy One of Israel, the Messiah who will one day come again in final glory, to reign on earth as Lord of lords and King of kings. I know that there is no other name given under heaven whereby a man can be saved and that only by relying wholly upon His merits, mercy, and everlasting grace19 can we gain eternal life.

My additional testimony regarding this resplendent doctrine is that in preparation for His millennial latter-day reign, Jesus has already come, more than once, in embodied majestic glory. In the spring of 1820, a 14-year-old boy, confused by many of these very doctrines that still confuse much of Christendom, went into a grove of trees to pray. In answer to that earnest prayer offered at such a tender age, the Father and the Son appeared as embodied, glorified beings to the boy prophet Joseph Smith. That day marked the beginning of the return of the true, New Testament gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and the restoration of other prophetic truths offered from Adam down to the present day.

I testify that my witness of these things is true and that the heavens are open to all who seek the same confirmation. Through the Holy Spirit of Truth, may we all know “the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom [He has] sent.”20 Then may we live Their teachings and be true Christians in deed, as well as in word, I pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.


REFERENCES

1. 1. Isaiah 29:14.
      
      
   2. Articles of Faith 1:1.
      
      
   3. Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099; emphasis added.
      
      
   4. Constantinople, A.D. 381; Ephesus, A.D. 431; Chalcedon, A.D. 451.
      
      
   5. Quoted in Owen Chadwick, Western Asceticism (1958), 235.
      
      
   6. John 17:3; emphasis added.
      
      
   7. For a thorough discussion of this issue, see Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christian? 71–89; see also Robert Millet, Getting at the Truth (2004), 106–22.
      
      
   8. See, for example, John 12:27–30; John 14:26; Romans 8:34; Hebrews 1:1–3.
      
      
   9. John 5:19; see also John 14:10.
      
      
   10. John 6:38.
       
       
   11. John 15:24.
       
       
   12. Matthew 19:17.
       
       
   13. John 14:28.
       
       
   14. Matthew 26:39.
       
       
   15. Matthew 27:46.
       
       
   16. Philippians 2:5–6.
       
       
   17. See David L. Paulsen, “Early Christian Belief in a Corporeal Deity: Origen and Augustine as Reluctant Witnesses,” Harvard Theological Review, vol. 83, no. 2 (1990): 105–16; David L. Paulsen, “The Doctrine of Divine Embodiment: Restoration, Judeo-Christian, and Philosophical Perspectives,” BYU Studies, vol. 35, no. 4 (1996): 7–94; James L. Kugel, The God of Old: Inside the Lost World of the Bible (2003), xi–xii, 5–6, 104–6, 134–35; Clark Pinnock, Most Moved Mover: A Theology of God’s Openness (2001), 33–34.
       
       
   18. See Romans 6:9; Alma 11:45.
       
       
   19. See 1 Nephi 10:6; 2 Nephi 2:8; 31:19; Moroni 6:4; Joseph Smith Translation, Romans 3:24.
       
       
   20. John 17:3.

There was no apostle Jeffrey Holland.

 

[BS Filter]

The words of an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ:

The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent
Jeffrey R. Holland
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles


We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings.

As Elder Ballard noted earlier in this session, various cross-currents of our times have brought increasing public attention to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Lord told the ancients this latter-day work would be “a marvellous work and a wonder,”1 and it is. But even as we invite one and all to examine closely the marvel of it, there is one thing we would not like anyone to wonder about—that is whether or not we are “Christians.”

By and large any controversy in this matter has swirled around two doctrinal issues—our view of the Godhead and our belief in the principle of continuing revelation leading to an open scriptural canon. In addressing this we do not need to be apologists for our faith, but we would like not to be misunderstood. So with a desire to increase understanding and unequivocally declare our Christianity, I speak today on the first of those two doctrinal issues just mentioned.

Our first and foremost article of faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”2 We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true.

Indeed no less a source than the stalwart Harper’s Bible Dictionary records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].”3

So any criticism that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not hold the contemporary Christian view of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost is not a comment about our commitment to Christ but rather a recognition (accurate, I might add) that our view of the Godhead breaks with post–New Testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus Himself. Now, a word about that post–New Testament history might be helpful.

In the year A.D. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils)4 as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time. In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible.

We agree with our critics on at least that point—that such a formulation for divinity is truly incomprehensible. With such a confusing definition of God being imposed upon the church, little wonder that a fourth-century monk cried out, “Woe is me! They have taken my God away from me, … and I know not whom to adore or to address.”5 How are we to trust, love, worship, to say nothing of strive to be like, One who is incomprehensible and unknowable? What of Jesus’s prayer to His Father in Heaven that “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”?6

It is not our purpose to demean any person’s belief nor the doctrine of any religion. We extend to all the same respect for their doctrine that we are asking for ours. (That, too, is an article of our faith.) But if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first Christian Saints, many of whom were eyewitnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?7

We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings, noting such unequivocal illustrations as the Savior’s great Intercessory Prayer just mentioned, His baptism at the hands of John, the experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, and the martyrdom of Stephen—to name just four.

With these New Testament sources and more8 ringing in our ears, it may be redundant to ask what Jesus meant when He said, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.”9 On another occasion He said, “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”10 Of His antagonists He said, “[They have] … seen and hated both me and my Father.”11 And there is, of course, that always deferential subordination to His Father that had Jesus say, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”12 “My father is greater than I.”13

To whom was Jesus pleading so fervently all those years, including in such anguished cries as “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”14 and “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me”?15 To acknowledge the scriptural evidence that otherwise perfectly united members of the Godhead are nevertheless separate and distinct beings is not to be guilty of polytheism; it is, rather, part of the great revelation Jesus came to deliver concerning the nature of divine beings. Perhaps the Apostle Paul said it best: “Christ Jesus … being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”16

A related reason The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is excluded from the Christian category by some is because we believe, as did the ancient prophets and apostles, in an embodied—but certainly glorified—God.17 To those who criticize this scripturally based belief, I ask at least rhetorically: If the idea of an embodied God is repugnant, why are the central doctrines and singularly most distinguishing characteristics of all Christianity the Incarnation, the Atonement, and the physical Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ? If having a body is not only not needed but not desirable by Deity, why did the Redeemer of mankind redeem His body, redeeming it from the grasp of death and the grave, guaranteeing it would never again be separated from His spirit in time or eternity?18Any who dismiss the concept of an embodied God dismiss both the mortal and the resurrected Christ. No one claiming to be a true Christian will want to do that.

Now, to anyone within the sound of my voice who has wondered regarding our Christianity, I bear this witness. I testify that Jesus Christ is the literal, living Son of our literal, living God. This Jesus is our Savior and Redeemer who, under the guidance of the Father, was the Creator of heaven and earth and all things that in them are. I bear witness that He was born of a virgin mother, that in His lifetime He performed mighty miracles observed by legions of His disciples and by His enemies as well. I testify that He had power over death because He was divine but that He willingly subjected Himself to death for our sake because for a period of time He was also mortal. I declare that in His willing submission to death He took upon Himself the sins of the world, paying an infinite price for every sorrow and sickness, every heartache and unhappiness from Adam to the end of the world. In doing so He conquered both the grave physically and hell spiritually and set the human family free. I bear witness that He was literally resurrected from the tomb and, after ascending to His Father to complete the process of that Resurrection, He appeared, repeatedly, to hundreds of disciples in the Old World and in the New. I know He is the Holy One of Israel, the Messiah who will one day come again in final glory, to reign on earth as Lord of lords and King of kings. I know that there is no other name given under heaven whereby a man can be saved and that only by relying wholly upon His merits, mercy, and everlasting grace19 can we gain eternal life.

My additional testimony regarding this resplendent doctrine is that in preparation for His millennial latter-day reign, Jesus has already come, more than once, in embodied majestic glory. In the spring of 1820, a 14-year-old boy, confused by many of these very doctrines that still confuse much of Christendom, went into a grove of trees to pray. In answer to that earnest prayer offered at such a tender age, the Father and the Son appeared as embodied, glorified beings to the boy prophet Joseph Smith. That day marked the beginning of the return of the true, New Testament gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and the restoration of other prophetic truths offered from Adam down to the present day.

I testify that my witness of these things is true and that the heavens are open to all who seek the same confirmation. Through the Holy Spirit of Truth, may we all know “the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom [He has] sent.”20 Then may we live Their teachings and be true Christians in deed, as well as in word, I pray in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.


REFERENCES

1. 1. Isaiah 29:14.
      
      
   2. Articles of Faith 1:1.
      
      
   3. Paul F. Achtemeier, ed. (1985), 1099; emphasis added.
      
      
   4. Constantinople, A.D. 381; Ephesus, A.D. 431; Chalcedon, A.D. 451.
      
      
   5. Quoted in Owen Chadwick, Western Asceticism (1958), 235.
      
      
   6. John 17:3; emphasis added.
      
      
   7. For a thorough discussion of this issue, see Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christian? 71–89; see also Robert Millet, Getting at the Truth (2004), 106–22.
      
      
   8. See, for example, John 12:27–30; John 14:26; Romans 8:34; Hebrews 1:1–3.
      
      
   9. John 5:19; see also John 14:10.
      
      
   10. John 6:38.
       
       
   11. John 15:24.
       
       
   12. Matthew 19:17.
       
       
   13. John 14:28.
       
       
   14. Matthew 26:39.
       
       
   15. Matthew 27:46.
       
       
   16. Philippians 2:5–6.
       
       
   17. See David L. Paulsen, “Early Christian Belief in a Corporeal Deity: Origen and Augustine as Reluctant Witnesses,” Harvard Theological Review, vol. 83, no. 2 (1990): 105–16; David L. Paulsen, “The Doctrine of Divine Embodiment: Restoration, Judeo-Christian, and Philosophical Perspectives,” BYU Studies, vol. 35, no. 4 (1996): 7–94; James L. Kugel, The God of Old: Inside the Lost World of the Bible (2003), xi–xii, 5–6, 104–6, 134–35; Clark Pinnock, Most Moved Mover: A Theology of God’s Openness (2001), 33–34.
       
       
   18. See Romans 6:9; Alma 11:45.
       
       
   19. See 1 Nephi 10:6; 2 Nephi 2:8; 31:19; Moroni 6:4; Joseph Smith Translation, Romans 3:24.
       
       
   20. John 17:3.

I read the entire post and it's the last sentence that disturbs me the most. Do you and Mormons believe that unless we are members of the Mormon sect that we are not "true Christians"? Are the rest of us that place our faith in Jesus Christ alone NOT "true Christians"?

 

[ding]

He is a being of spirit but a spirit being has a spirit body and is in the same form as a being with a body.

That wasn't confusing at all.

 

[RWNJ]

Whether God is triune is an issue that confounded Christians even in the first four centuries. If God is almighty, then He is the only God. Two beings, God and the Son of God, can't both be almighty. And one who is begotten certainly cannot be equal to one who begets.

Jesus tells us, though, that he and the Father are One, and that if we have seen him we seen the Father (John 10:30; 14:9).

Also, whatever is perfect does not change. God would have changed when He begat a Son and became a Father, i.e., something else. Therefore, He had always been the Father and Jesus always the Son.

The Nicene Creed could have gone either way, though, really; a council of bishops is really what determined the orthodoxy.

Two beings, huh?

"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Genesis 1:2

No. One Being. Three persons. All equal. All partaking of the essence of God. One God, existing as three persons.

 

[Clement]

Whether God is triune is an issue that confounded Christians even in the first four centuries. If God is almighty, then He is the only God. Two beings, God and the Son of God, can't both be almighty. And one who is begotten certainly cannot be equal to one who begets.

Jesus tells us, though, that he and the Father are One, and that if we have seen him we seen the Father (John 10:30; 14:9).

Also, whatever is perfect does not change. God would have changed when He begat a Son and became a Father, i.e., something else. Therefore, He had always been the Father and Jesus always the Son.

The Nicene Creed could have gone either way, though, really; a council of bishops is really what determined the orthodoxy.

Two beings, huh?

"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Genesis 1:2

No. One Being. Three persons. All equal. All partaking of the essence of God. One God, existing as three persons.

I hate it when people try to teach me my religion.

I was answering the other poster in his own terms.

 

[RWNJ]

Whether God is triune is an issue that confounded Christians even in the first four centuries. If God is almighty, then He is the only God. Two beings, God and the Son of God, can't both be almighty. And one who is begotten certainly cannot be equal to one who begets.

Jesus tells us, though, that he and the Father are One, and that if we have seen him we seen the Father (John 10:30; 14:9).

Also, whatever is perfect does not change. God would have changed when He begat a Son and became a Father, i.e., something else. Therefore, He had always been the Father and Jesus always the Son.

The Nicene Creed could have gone either way, though, really; a council of bishops is really what determined the orthodoxy.

Two beings, huh?

"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Genesis 1:2

No. One Being. Three persons. All equal. All partaking of the essence of God. One God, existing as three persons.

I hate it when people try to teach me my religion.

I was answering the other poster in his own terms.

Sorry. I saw you mention two beings. That is incorrect. Just wanted to set the record straight.

 

[onefour1]

There was no apostle Jeffrey Holland.

Jeffrey R. Holland is a current member of the Twelve Apostles in the church today. You may not believe that but I do and I have no problem with that. I believe that God gave us all the right to believe in whatever we choose to believe in. I whole heartedly believe in freedom of thought and religion. In our Articles of Faith it states:

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

 

[RWNJ]

There was no apostle Jeffrey Holland.

Jeffrey R. Holland is a current member of the Twelve Apostles in the church today. You may not believe that but I do and I have no problem with that. I believe that God gave us all the right to believe in whatever we choose to believe in. I whole heartedly believe in freedom of thought and religion. In our Articles of Faith it states:

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

Before I call you a blithering idiot, what do you believe one must do to get to Heaven? Be specific.

 

[onefour1]

I read the entire post and it's the last sentence that disturbs me the most. Do you and Mormons believe that unless we are members of the Mormon sect that we are not "true Christians"? Are the rest of us that place our faith in Jesus Christ alone NOT "true Christians"?

We believe that when Christ was on the earth during his earthly ministry, that he set up his church and called men to ministers of the gospel and gave them priesthood authority. We believe that over the process of time, persecutions came upon the church and the Lord's Apostles were killed and the church gradually fell into a state of apostasy. We believe that for a man to obtain the priesthood of God it was necessary that he be ordained unto that authority by one who holds the priesthood and has the authority to confer that priesthood on others. We do not believe that a man can take upon himself the priesthood of God.

Hebrews 5:4-6
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

1 Timothy 4:14
14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.


We believe that after the Apostles were killed and the church fell into a state of apostasy that the priesthood of God was taken from the earth. It was not restored unto the earth until God set up his church in these latter days. With the priesthood comes the authority to minister in the ordinances of the gospel. Without the authority, it is not recognized by the Lord. Such ordinances as baptism, conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost, and conferring priesthood upon others are part of this authority.

Amos 8:11-12
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

We believe that this was a prophecy of the great apostasy.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

We believe that the falling away has already occurred and that the church went away into the wilderness for a time, times and the dividing of time and that after these events, the gospel has been restored in these latter days. We believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true restored church of Jesus Christ. We do believe that all men should come unto it and receive the blessings of the gospel.

We believe that to the extent that others believe in Jesus Christ that they are believers in Christ. But we believe that they need to come unto his church and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel that have been restored in these latter days which were lost during the time of apostasy but are now had in his restored church.

 

[RWNJ]

I read the entire post and it's the last sentence that disturbs me the most. Do you and Mormons believe that unless we are members of the Mormon sect that we are not "true Christians"? Are the rest of us that place our faith in Jesus Christ alone NOT "true Christians"?

We believe that when Christ was on the earth during his earthly ministry, that he set up his church and called men to ministers of the gospel and gave them priesthood authority. We believe that over the process of time, persecutions came upon the church and the Lord's Apostles were killed and the church gradually fell into a state of apostasy. We believe that for a man to obtain the priesthood of God it was necessary that he be ordained unto that authority by one who holds the priesthood and has the authority to confer that priesthood on others. We do not believe that a man can take upon himself the priesthood of God.

Hebrews 5:4-6
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

1 Timothy 4:14
14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.


We believe that after the Apostles were killed and the church fell into a state of apostasy that the priesthood of God was taken from the earth. It was not restored unto the earth until God set up his church in these latter days. With the priesthood comes the authority to minister in the ordinances of the gospel. Without the authority, it is not recognized by the Lord. Such ordinances as baptism, conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost, and conferring priesthood upon others are part of this authority.

Amos 8:11-12
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

We believe that this was a prophecy of the great apostasy.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

We believe that the falling away has already occurred and that the church went away into the wilderness for a time, times and the dividing of time and that after these events, the gospel has been restored in these latter days. We believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true restored church of Jesus Christ. We do believe that all men should come unto it and receive the blessings of the gospel.

We believe that to the extent that others believe in Jesus Christ that they are believers in Christ. But we believe that they need to come unto his church and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel that have been restored in these latter days which were lost during the time of apostasy but are now had in his restored church.

You also believe that you can become gods. LOL! Good luck with that.

 

[onefour1]

He is a being of spirit but a spirit being has a spirit body and is in the same form as a being with a body.

That wasn't confusing at all.

Sorry I try to be concise but the meaning sometimes gets lost. Let me take a little more time and space.

We believe that all mankind existed as spirit children of God before coming to this earth. What is a spirit? We believe that a spirit has the same form or shape as a man or woman on this earth has except that its body is made of spiritual matter and not the course matter we have in this world. We believe that spirits have bodies of spiritual matter. For example, before the Lord came to this earth and took on a body of flesh and bones, he was in the form of a man as when he showed himself unto Moses:

Exodus 33:17-23
17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

The Lord as a spirit being had a face and back parts. To the prophet Joseph Smith the Lord revealed:

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

Hopefully this is more clear.

As an addition, not only was Jesus in the form like a man but we believe that God the Eternal Father is the Man of Holiness. It is not that God is in the image of man but:

Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

[ding]

He is a being of spirit but a spirit being has a spirit body and is in the same form as a being with a body.

That wasn't confusing at all.

Sorry I try to be concise but the meaning sometimes gets lost. Let me take a little more time and space.

We believe that all mankind existed as spirit children of God before coming to this earth. What is a spirit? We believe that a spirit has the same form or shape as a man or woman on this earth has except that its body is made of spiritual matter and not the course matter we have in this world. We believe that spirits have bodies of spiritual matter. For example, before the Lord came to this earth and took on a body of flesh and bones, he was in the form of a man as when he showed himself unto Moses:

Exodus 33:17-23
17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

The Lord as a spirit being had a face and back parts. To the prophet Joseph Smith the Lord revealed:

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

Hopefully this is more clear.

As an addition, not only was Jesus in the form like a man but we believe that God the Eternal Father is the Man of Holiness. It is not that God is in the image of man but:

Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Does the Church of LDS believe these beliefs were hidden by Judaeo Christianity?

 

[BS Filter]

I read the entire post and it's the last sentence that disturbs me the most. Do you and Mormons believe that unless we are members of the Mormon sect that we are not "true Christians"? Are the rest of us that place our faith in Jesus Christ alone NOT "true Christians"?

We believe that when Christ was on the earth during his earthly ministry, that he set up his church and called men to ministers of the gospel and gave them priesthood authority. We believe that over the process of time, persecutions came upon the church and the Lord's Apostles were killed and the church gradually fell into a state of apostasy. We believe that for a man to obtain the priesthood of God it was necessary that he be ordained unto that authority by one who holds the priesthood and has the authority to confer that priesthood on others. We do not believe that a man can take upon himself the priesthood of God.

Hebrews 5:4-6
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

1 Timothy 4:14
14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.


We believe that after the Apostles were killed and the church fell into a state of apostasy that the priesthood of God was taken from the earth. It was not restored unto the earth until God set up his church in these latter days. With the priesthood comes the authority to minister in the ordinances of the gospel. Without the authority, it is not recognized by the Lord. Such ordinances as baptism, conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost, and conferring priesthood upon others are part of this authority.

Amos 8:11-12
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

We believe that this was a prophecy of the great apostasy.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

We believe that the falling away has already occurred and that the church went away into the wilderness for a time, times and the dividing of time and that after these events, the gospel has been restored in these latter days. We believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true restored church of Jesus Christ. We do believe that all men should come unto it and receive the blessings of the gospel.

We believe that to the extent that others believe in Jesus Christ that they are believers in Christ. But we believe that they need to come unto his church and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel that have been restored in these latter days which were lost during the time of apostasy but are now had in his restored church.

Protestants don't believe the falling away has occured. We believe all of us are kings and priests with Jesus being our high priest. A priest has access to the presence of God. We all have that now. We believe the Bible is the only book of Scripture. We believe Joseph Smith was a liar. We believe everyone that has faith in Jesus and what he did is saved and has eternal life, according to the Scriptures. You believe that the Mormon sect is the true church. We don't. We believe that the Scriptures teach the true church is not an organization, but people that put their faith in Jesus alone.

 

[onefour1]

He is a being of spirit but a spirit being has a spirit body and is in the same form as a being with a body.

That wasn't confusing at all.

Sorry I try to be concise but the meaning sometimes gets lost. Let me take a little more time and space.

We believe that all mankind existed as spirit children of God before coming to this earth. What is a spirit? We believe that a spirit has the same form or shape as a man or woman on this earth has except that its body is made of spiritual matter and not the course matter we have in this world. We believe that spirits have bodies of spiritual matter. For example, before the Lord came to this earth and took on a body of flesh and bones, he was in the form of a man as when he showed himself unto Moses:

Exodus 33:17-23
17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

The Lord as a spirit being had a face and back parts. To the prophet Joseph Smith the Lord revealed:

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

Hopefully this is more clear.

As an addition, not only was Jesus in the form like a man but we believe that God the Eternal Father is the Man of Holiness. It is not that God is in the image of man but:

Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Does the Church of LDS believe these beliefs were hidden by Judaeo Christianity?

As shown to Moses in Exodus 33 and Genesis 1, I don't think these things were hidden at all. Both the Jews and the Christians believed and had access to the scriptures of the Old Testament. The premortal Christ had a spirit body with a face and back part the same as a man. Mankind were created in the image and likeness of God.

 

[ding]

He is a being of spirit but a spirit being has a spirit body and is in the same form as a being with a body.

That wasn't confusing at all.

Sorry I try to be concise but the meaning sometimes gets lost. Let me take a little more time and space.

We believe that all mankind existed as spirit children of God before coming to this earth. What is a spirit? We believe that a spirit has the same form or shape as a man or woman on this earth has except that its body is made of spiritual matter and not the course matter we have in this world. We believe that spirits have bodies of spiritual matter. For example, before the Lord came to this earth and took on a body of flesh and bones, he was in the form of a man as when he showed himself unto Moses:

Exodus 33:17-23
17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

The Lord as a spirit being had a face and back parts. To the prophet Joseph Smith the Lord revealed:

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

Hopefully this is more clear.

As an addition, not only was Jesus in the form like a man but we believe that God the Eternal Father is the Man of Holiness. It is not that God is in the image of man but:

Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Does the Church of LDS believe these beliefs were hidden by Judaeo Christianity?

As shown to Moses in Exodus 33 and Genesis 1, I don't think these things were hidden at all. Both the Jews and the Christians believed and had access to the scriptures of the Old Testament. The premortal Christ had a spirit body with a face and back part the same as a man. Mankind were created in the image and likeness of God.

But they didn't teach that men could become like God, right?

Why not?

 

[RWNJ]

He is a being of spirit but a spirit being has a spirit body and is in the same form as a being with a body.

That wasn't confusing at all.

Sorry I try to be concise but the meaning sometimes gets lost. Let me take a little more time and space.

We believe that all mankind existed as spirit children of God before coming to this earth. What is a spirit? We believe that a spirit has the same form or shape as a man or woman on this earth has except that its body is made of spiritual matter and not the course matter we have in this world. We believe that spirits have bodies of spiritual matter. For example, before the Lord came to this earth and took on a body of flesh and bones, he was in the form of a man as when he showed himself unto Moses:

Exodus 33:17-23
17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

The Lord as a spirit being had a face and back parts. To the prophet Joseph Smith the Lord revealed:

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

Hopefully this is more clear.

As an addition, not only was Jesus in the form like a man but we believe that God the Eternal Father is the Man of Holiness. It is not that God is in the image of man but:

Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Does the Church of LDS believe these beliefs were hidden by Judaeo Christianity?

As shown to Moses in Exodus 33 and Genesis 1, I don't think these things were hidden at all. Both the Jews and the Christians believed and had access to the scriptures of the Old Testament. The premortal Christ had a spirit body with a face and back part the same as a man. Mankind were created in the image and likeness of God.

In our own image has nothing to with looks. It was a reference to creating a being that could think and reason, as God is able to do.