Christian values

[koshergrl]

Ten Commandments are Jewish and, Judea/Christian Morals are what is at issue here.

Actually, only three of the Ten Commandments have any force of law.

Well, I agree... the Law is pretty sad these days.

But hey, such is the nature of Evil tho', now ain't it?

And... when ya allow the Left a say in governance, you're gonna get weak law and THAT is going to result in the rapid decline of the culture.

And one need look no farther for evidence of THAT, than the US Culture as it collapses under the dead weight of Leftism.

No surprise there.

Dude, admit it: you want a return to the Inquisition, with you in the role of Torquemada. Do you masturbate to thoughts of burning anyone who disagrees with you?

Never have more than half of the Commandments had any force of law in this country. If you want one nation under God...try Iran.

What insane crap you spout. Do you even know what the Inquisition was? The Inquisition is what happens when the state gets authority over religion. As is the Holocaust.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Ten Commandments are Jewish and, Judea/Christian Morals are what is at issue here.

Actually, only three of the Ten Commandments have any force of law.

Well, I agree... the Law is pretty sad these days.

But hey, such is the nature of Evil tho', now ain't it?

And... when ya allow the Left a say in governance, you're gonna get weak law and THAT is going to result in the rapid decline of the culture.

And one need look no farther for evidence of THAT, than the US Culture as it collapses under the dead weight of Leftism.

No surprise there.

Dude, admit it: you want a return to the Inquisition, with you in the role of Torquemada. Do you masturbate to thoughts of burning anyone who disagrees with you?

Never have more than half of the Commandments had any force of law in this country. If you want one nation under God...try Iran.

What insane crap you spout. Do you even know what the Inquisition was? The Inquisition is what happens when the state gets authority over religion. As is the Holocaust.

You mean...exactly what Keys is suggesting!

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Ten Commandments are Jewish and, Judea/Christian Morals are what is at issue here.

But what I am sensing is that while you'd love to offer an example of a moral that is not founded directly in such, you're unable to do so. And further you're unable to speak to any of the other queries relevant to the challenge.

Which is pretty much where the standard says you would be.

Thanks for participating.

Your concession is Duly noted and Summarily accepted.

Ya did the best ya could...

.

.

.

SO... Now LET'S Return to the Relevant Discussion:

The challenge which they've now repeatedly failed to rise toward, is for the Advocates of Godlessness to explain how morality and the ethics derived from such, are possible in the absence of God.

In the absence of God:

What are morals?
What purpose do morals serve?
On what authority do they rest? (Which is to ask: From where do these would-be morals come?)
On what basis are such enforced?
What serves to enforce such?

You don't have a monopoly over common sense lists of morals because you were the first to record them.
Doesn't work that way.. In fact Hammurabi would have an interesting case at US trademark court on the "ownership" question... The argument that morality doesn't exist if you're not enrolled in a faith-based institution which cites morality as contingent on FAITH is actually a weaker justification to practice those moral codes.

Those moral codes should be based on reason and empirical observations about humanity in a much broader sense. If you think I'm foolish to say that -- you ought to realize that one of the worlds LARGEST religions that SHARES the 10 commandments (in theory) is being pummeled today for their "adaptation" of these moral codes. And yes -- I'm referring to Islam. FAITH in God is NOT sufficient to deny these truths to "non-religious" people as an excersize in reason and observation..

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

OH! Now THAT is brilliant.

Do the Board a favor and cite us a few morals which you recognize that are derived wholly separate from Christianity.

And please... this is key, explain to the board how, in the absence of God, morals are an essential element of humanity.

The ten commandments were given to Moses by God and Christians are to keep those commandments, Flacaltenn. I agree with you that atheists can live good moral lives. If it were not true we would not be able to find such examples in the Bible, yet we can.

I have known families who do not acknowledge God in any way and have lived lives that would put some who say they are Christian to shame. One family I am thinking of has given to charities, raised their children to be very productive members of society and are very warm, compassionate, caring individuals. Yet they do not follow any religion and have no part of it. I will add that they are Jews but secular Jews who do not believe in following God. So what can we derive from this?

First, I thought of Jeremiah 35 which I'll post here - second I thought of Matthew 22 and the verse where it says those who were invited to come to God's Wedding Banquet for His Son refused to come. Then when they refused to come and turned on God's servants (whom He had sent out) God said they were not worthy and he told His servants to go out into the highway and byways to invite "the good and the bad" to come in so that his banquet hall would be filled. And the good and the bad came in.

Who were the good and the bad? Good people and bad people who had no relationship with God! That's who. People we might call "atheists". Who knows that Don'tTazMeBro's friend will not be among that number when the time comes? You know? God looks upon the heart of a man. Men look at the outer appearance and works of a person but what is the motive behind those works? As we see in the parable of Matthew 22 it certainly wasn't the love of God motivating them. It was something else. Because they had left their first love and refused to return - they lost their salvation and the good and the bad took their place at the wedding banquet for God's Son.

So with that? I agree with you that people who do not believe in God can have good morals. In fact, they can have the very best of morals! Still without Christ, they cannot enter in because it is only through receiving Jesus Christ and being covered by the Blood of the Lamb that we can enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is the story the LORD reminded me of (after reading this thread / discussion). It's a story about the Rechabites. They were not of Israel but I believe they were included in the Abrahamic covenant. As you will see by this story - these Rechabites obeyed their earthly father faithfully whereas God used them as an example to ask His own children why can't you do the same for me as they do for their father? Look at their faithfulness to their earthly father (their good morals!) their obedience, their willingness to obey their earthly father without question! Even out of love for their earthly father!

It was quite a lesson for the Israelites and it should equally be a lesson for Christians today. If the world can honor their earthly fathers - how much more so should the Children of God Honor God by their obedience and holy lives?

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 35 - King James Version

The ten commandments were given to Moses by God and Christians are to keep those commandments, Flacaltenn. I agree with you that atheists can live good moral lives. If it were not true we would not be able to find such examples in the Bible, yet we can.

I have known families who do not acknowledge God in any way and have lived lives that would put some who say they are Christian to shame. One family I am thinking of has given to charities, raised their children to be very productive members of society and are very warm, compassionate, caring individuals. Yet they do not follow any religion and have no part of it. I will add that they are Jews but secular Jews who do not believe in or follow God (attending synagogue or Judaism). So what can we derive from this?

First, I thought of Jeremiah 35 which I'll post here - second I thought of Matthew 22 and the verse where it says those who were invited to come to God's Wedding Banquet for His Son refused to come. Then God when they refused to come and turned on God's servants (whom He had sent out) God said they were not worthy and he told His servants to go out into the highway and byways to invite "the good and the bad" to come in so that his banquet hall would be filled. And the good and the bad came in.

Who were the good and the bad? Good people and bad people who had no relationship with God! That's who. People we might call "atheists". Who knows that Don'tTazMeBro's friend will not be among that number when the time comes? You know? God looks upon the heart of a man. Men look at the outer appearance and works of a person but what is the motive behind those works? As we see in the parable of Matthew 22 it certainly wasn't the love of God motivating them. It was something else. Because they had left their first love and refused to return - they lost their salvation and the good and the bad took their place at the wedding banquet for God's Son.

So with that? I agree with you that people who do not believe in God can have good morals. In fact, they can have the very best of morals! Still without Christ, they cannot enter in because it is only through receiving Jesus Christ and being covered by the Blood of the Lamb that we can enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is the story the LORD reminded me of (after reading this thread / discussion). It's a story about the Rechabites. They were not of Israel but I believe they were included in the Abrahamic covenant. As you will see by this story - these Rechabites obeyed their earthly father faithfully whereas God used them as an example to ask His own children why can't you do the same for me as they do for their father? Look at their faithfulness to their earthly father (their good morals!) their obedience, their willingness to obey their earthly father without question! Even out of love for their earthly father!

It was quite a lesson for the Israelites and it should equally be a lesson for Christians today. If the world can honor their earthly fathers - how much more so should the Children of God Honor God by their obedience and holy lives?

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 35 - King James Version

Jeremiah 35 King James Version (KJV)
35 The word which came unto Jeremiah from the Lord in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, saying,

2 Go unto the house of the Rechabites, and speak unto them, and bring them into the house of the Lord, into one of the chambers, and give them wine to drink.

3 Then I took Jaazaniah the son of Jeremiah, the son of Habaziniah, and his brethren, and all his sons, and the whole house of the Rechabites;

4 And I brought them into the house of the Lord, into the chamber of the sons of Hanan, the son of Igdaliah, a man of God, which was by the chamber of the princes, which was above the chamber of Maaseiah the son of Shallum, the keeper of the door:

5 And I set before the sons of the house of the Rechabites pots full of wine, and cups, and I said unto them, Drink ye wine.

6 But they said, We will drink no wine: for Jonadab the son of Rechab our father commanded us, saying, Ye shall drink no wine, neither ye, nor your sons for ever:

7 Neither shall ye build house, nor sow seed, nor plant vineyard, nor have any: but all your days ye shall dwell in tents; that ye may live many days in the land where ye be strangers.

8 Thus have we obeyed the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab our father in all that he hath charged us, to drink no wine all our days, we, our wives, our sons, nor our daughters;

9 Nor to build houses for us to dwell in: neither have we vineyard, nor field, nor seed:

10 But we have dwelt in tents, and have obeyed, and done according to all that Jonadab our father commanded us.

11 But it came to pass, when Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon came up into the land, that we said, Come, and let us go to Jerusalem for fear of the army of the Chaldeans, and for fear of the army of the Syrians: so we dwell at Jerusalem.

12 Then came the word of the Lord unto Jeremiah, saying,

13 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Go and tell the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Will ye not receive instruction to hearken to my words? saith the Lord.

14 The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, that he commanded his sons not to drink wine, are performed; for unto this day they drink none, but obey their father's commandment: notwithstanding I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; but ye hearkened not unto me.

15 I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.

16 Because the sons of Jonadab the son of Rechab have performed the commandment of their father, which he commanded them; but this people hath not hearkened unto me:

17 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

18 And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:

19 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.

King James Version (KJV)

I'm certainly not generalizing here.. I choose to live amongst people of faith because I admire their discipline and devotion.. And with them -- I KNOW what the expectations should be thru God's word.. I can SEE the dedication to the task from their actions every day in the Bible belt. And it shows in their children.

I have no such guidance for the "independents" who claim to have a personal moral code and discipline.

What I'm saying is -- with enough discipline and dedication --- folks CAN develop equivalent moral values WITHOUT the institutionalized assistance. OBEYING divine words is a GOOD way to accomplish that -- but not the only way.. Without Weight Watchers -- you can still beat gluttony and sloth.. Without a congregation, you can still know right and wrong. But not without the same amount of dedication to the task that a Church going Christian or Synagogue worshipping Jew puts into it during a year.

Absent God there is no potential for a moral code... as the morality merely becomes your opinion over the next guys.

God's authority is what provides morality... and absent that, it's just the short road to chaos, calamity and catastrophe.

Wrong. Many societies have developed moral code. According to you, only the Judeo-Christian societies did it under the guidance of a real god. But the Babylonians, Egyptians, Chinese, Persians, Greeks, Indians, etc, etc, etc all developed moral codes without the guidance of your god. So ... you are absolutely wrong.

Stating a moral code and BEING A MORAL CODE are two entirely different things.

You and your coven mates have proven that throughout this thread through your inability to answer the standing queries.

If it helps, I've presented that same challenge thousands of times and to date, not a single valid response has come forth on any of dozens of sites.

 

[Davros]

Dude, admit it: you want a return to the Inquisition, with you in the role of Torquemada. Do you masturbate to thoughts of burning anyone who disagrees with you?

Never have more than half of the Commandments had any force of law in this country. If you want one nation under God...try Iran.

Sadly, the Mods are on a tear and looking for "troll" posts... so I'm going to have to report this.

How is that trolling? You yourself went on a long rant about how you want to bring back Old Testament justice, and how you want the non-believers to speak out their displeasure with your justice system so that they'll be easier to find.

 

[Davros]

You don't have a monopoly over common sense lists of morals because you were the first to record them.
Doesn't work that way.. In fact Hammurabi would have an interesting case at US trademark court on the "ownership" question... The argument that morality doesn't exist if you're not enrolled in a faith-based institution which cites morality as contingent on FAITH is actually a weaker justification to practice those moral codes.

Those moral codes should be based on reason and empirical observations about humanity in a much broader sense. If you think I'm foolish to say that -- you ought to realize that one of the worlds LARGEST religions that SHARES the 10 commandments (in theory) is being pummeled today for their "adaptation" of these moral codes. And yes -- I'm referring to Islam. FAITH in God is NOT sufficient to deny these truths to "non-religious" people as an excersize in reason and observation..

The ten commandments were given to Moses by God and Christians are to keep those commandments, Flacaltenn. I agree with you that atheists can live good moral lives. If it were not true we would not be able to find such examples in the Bible, yet we can.

I have known families who do not acknowledge God in any way and have lived lives that would put some who say they are Christian to shame. One family I am thinking of has given to charities, raised their children to be very productive members of society and are very warm, compassionate, caring individuals. Yet they do not follow any religion and have no part of it. I will add that they are Jews but secular Jews who do not believe in following God. So what can we derive from this?

First, I thought of Jeremiah 35 which I'll post here - second I thought of Matthew 22 and the verse where it says those who were invited to come to God's Wedding Banquet for His Son refused to come. Then when they refused to come and turned on God's servants (whom He had sent out) God said they were not worthy and he told His servants to go out into the highway and byways to invite "the good and the bad" to come in so that his banquet hall would be filled. And the good and the bad came in.

Who were the good and the bad? Good people and bad people who had no relationship with God! That's who. People we might call "atheists". Who knows that Don'tTazMeBro's friend will not be among that number when the time comes? You know? God looks upon the heart of a man. Men look at the outer appearance and works of a person but what is the motive behind those works? As we see in the parable of Matthew 22 it certainly wasn't the love of God motivating them. It was something else. Because they had left their first love and refused to return - they lost their salvation and the good and the bad took their place at the wedding banquet for God's Son.

So with that? I agree with you that people who do not believe in God can have good morals. In fact, they can have the very best of morals! Still without Christ, they cannot enter in because it is only through receiving Jesus Christ and being covered by the Blood of the Lamb that we can enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is the story the LORD reminded me of (after reading this thread / discussion). It's a story about the Rechabites. They were not of Israel but I believe they were included in the Abrahamic covenant. As you will see by this story - these Rechabites obeyed their earthly father faithfully whereas God used them as an example to ask His own children why can't you do the same for me as they do for their father? Look at their faithfulness to their earthly father (their good morals!) their obedience, their willingness to obey their earthly father without question! Even out of love for their earthly father!

It was quite a lesson for the Israelites and it should equally be a lesson for Christians today. If the world can honor their earthly fathers - how much more so should the Children of God Honor God by their obedience and holy lives?

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 35 - King James Version

The ten commandments were given to Moses by God and Christians are to keep those commandments, Flacaltenn. I agree with you that atheists can live good moral lives. If it were not true we would not be able to find such examples in the Bible, yet we can.

I have known families who do not acknowledge God in any way and have lived lives that would put some who say they are Christian to shame. One family I am thinking of has given to charities, raised their children to be very productive members of society and are very warm, compassionate, caring individuals. Yet they do not follow any religion and have no part of it. I will add that they are Jews but secular Jews who do not believe in or follow God (attending synagogue or Judaism). So what can we derive from this?

First, I thought of Jeremiah 35 which I'll post here - second I thought of Matthew 22 and the verse where it says those who were invited to come to God's Wedding Banquet for His Son refused to come. Then God when they refused to come and turned on God's servants (whom He had sent out) God said they were not worthy and he told His servants to go out into the highway and byways to invite "the good and the bad" to come in so that his banquet hall would be filled. And the good and the bad came in.

Who were the good and the bad? Good people and bad people who had no relationship with God! That's who. People we might call "atheists". Who knows that Don'tTazMeBro's friend will not be among that number when the time comes? You know? God looks upon the heart of a man. Men look at the outer appearance and works of a person but what is the motive behind those works? As we see in the parable of Matthew 22 it certainly wasn't the love of God motivating them. It was something else. Because they had left their first love and refused to return - they lost their salvation and the good and the bad took their place at the wedding banquet for God's Son.

So with that? I agree with you that people who do not believe in God can have good morals. In fact, they can have the very best of morals! Still without Christ, they cannot enter in because it is only through receiving Jesus Christ and being covered by the Blood of the Lamb that we can enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is the story the LORD reminded me of (after reading this thread / discussion). It's a story about the Rechabites. They were not of Israel but I believe they were included in the Abrahamic covenant. As you will see by this story - these Rechabites obeyed their earthly father faithfully whereas God used them as an example to ask His own children why can't you do the same for me as they do for their father? Look at their faithfulness to their earthly father (their good morals!) their obedience, their willingness to obey their earthly father without question! Even out of love for their earthly father!

It was quite a lesson for the Israelites and it should equally be a lesson for Christians today. If the world can honor their earthly fathers - how much more so should the Children of God Honor God by their obedience and holy lives?

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 35 - King James Version

Jeremiah 35 King James Version (KJV)
35 The word which came unto Jeremiah from the Lord in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, saying,

2 Go unto the house of the Rechabites, and speak unto them, and bring them into the house of the Lord, into one of the chambers, and give them wine to drink.

3 Then I took Jaazaniah the son of Jeremiah, the son of Habaziniah, and his brethren, and all his sons, and the whole house of the Rechabites;

4 And I brought them into the house of the Lord, into the chamber of the sons of Hanan, the son of Igdaliah, a man of God, which was by the chamber of the princes, which was above the chamber of Maaseiah the son of Shallum, the keeper of the door:

5 And I set before the sons of the house of the Rechabites pots full of wine, and cups, and I said unto them, Drink ye wine.

6 But they said, We will drink no wine: for Jonadab the son of Rechab our father commanded us, saying, Ye shall drink no wine, neither ye, nor your sons for ever:

7 Neither shall ye build house, nor sow seed, nor plant vineyard, nor have any: but all your days ye shall dwell in tents; that ye may live many days in the land where ye be strangers.

8 Thus have we obeyed the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab our father in all that he hath charged us, to drink no wine all our days, we, our wives, our sons, nor our daughters;

9 Nor to build houses for us to dwell in: neither have we vineyard, nor field, nor seed:

10 But we have dwelt in tents, and have obeyed, and done according to all that Jonadab our father commanded us.

11 But it came to pass, when Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon came up into the land, that we said, Come, and let us go to Jerusalem for fear of the army of the Chaldeans, and for fear of the army of the Syrians: so we dwell at Jerusalem.

12 Then came the word of the Lord unto Jeremiah, saying,

13 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Go and tell the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Will ye not receive instruction to hearken to my words? saith the Lord.

14 The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, that he commanded his sons not to drink wine, are performed; for unto this day they drink none, but obey their father's commandment: notwithstanding I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; but ye hearkened not unto me.

15 I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.

16 Because the sons of Jonadab the son of Rechab have performed the commandment of their father, which he commanded them; but this people hath not hearkened unto me:

17 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

18 And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:

19 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.

King James Version (KJV)

I'm certainly not generalizing here.. I choose to live amongst people of faith because I admire their discipline and devotion.. And with them -- I KNOW what the expectations should be thru God's word.. I can SEE the dedication to the task from their actions every day in the Bible belt. And it shows in their children.

I have no such guidance for the "independents" who claim to have a personal moral code and discipline.

What I'm saying is -- with enough discipline and dedication --- folks CAN develop equivalent moral values WITHOUT the institutionalized assistance. OBEYING divine words is a GOOD way to accomplish that -- but not the only way.. Without Weight Watchers -- you can still beat gluttony and sloth.. Without a congregation, you can still know right and wrong. But not without the same amount of dedication to the task that a Church going Christian or Synagogue worshipping Jew puts into it during a year.

Absent God there is no potential for a moral code... as the morality merely becomes your opinion over the next guys.

God's authority is what provides morality... and absent that, it's just the short road to chaos, calamity and catastrophe.

Wrong. Many societies have developed moral code. According to you, only the Judeo-Christian societies did it under the guidance of a real god. But the Babylonians, Egyptians, Chinese, Persians, Greeks, Indians, etc, etc, etc all developed moral codes without the guidance of your god. So ... you are absolutely wrong.

Stating a moral code and BEING A MORAL CODE are two entirely different things.

You and your coven mates have proven that throughout this thread through your inability to answer the standing queries.

If it helps, I've presented that same challenge thousands of times and to date, not a single valid response has come forth on and of dozens of sites.

I made a post answering each of your questions. You must have missed that.

 

[Davros]

SO... Now LET'S Return to the Relevant Discussion:

The challenge which they've now repeatedly failed to rise toward, is for the Advocates of Godlessness to explain how morality and the ethics derived from such, are possible in the absence of God.

In the absence of God:

What are morals?
What purpose do morals serve?
On what authority do they rest? (Which is to ask: From where do these would-be morals come?)
On what basis are such enforced?
What serves to enforce such?

Morals are a person's feelings of right and wrong.

A moral person, who feels strong morals that are beneficial to others, had a net positive effect on society, and can inspire others to have an even greater positive effect on society. That is the benefit of morals.

Morals rest on the authority of the individual, but collectively, they rest on the authority of a great many individuals who recognize that strong morals protect society from evil

Society collectively enforces morals ... by rewarding good behavior, and punishing bad behavior. For example, when you help others, others are more enthusiastic about helping you. People like good people.

There you go chief ... morality without God. In the tradition of AA, the group can be a higher power than the individual.

Repeat.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

I made a post answering each of your questions. You must have missed that.

I did miss it. I'll go back and see what ya offered and present you with the formal notation and acceptance of your concession in a short.

 

[Davros]

Did anyone see the above would-be 'contributor' answer the queries?

It feels so certain about its answers that it lacks the courage to cite the responses.

I reposted it 2 posts above yours here cited ... two minutes before yours here cited.

My repost has the word Repeat.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Found it...

SO... Now LET'S Return to the Relevant Discussion:

The challenge which they've now repeatedly failed to rise toward, is for the Advocates of Godlessness to explain how morality and the ethics derived from such, are possible in the absence of God.

In the absence of God:

What are morals?
What purpose do morals serve?
On what authority do they rest? (Which is to ask: From where do these would-be morals come?)
On what basis are such enforced?
What serves to enforce such?

Morals are a person's feelings of right and wrong.

ROFLMNAO!
Based upon what?

A moral person, who feels strong morals that are beneficial to others, had a net positive effect on society, and can inspire others to have an even greater positive effect on society. That is the benefit of morals.

Based upon what?

Morals rest on the authority of the individual

Oh... so when the individual is destroyed, the moral code they 'felt best' is destroyed with 'em?

Doesn't sound like much of a moral code... as any power greater than the power that the individual is capable of wielding, intrinsically supersedes that moral code.

Society collectively enforces morals ...

So society enforces YOUR Moral Code? ROFLMNAO!

Now, you're basing that upon what?

There you go chief ...

Your concession is: Duly Noted and Summarily Accepted.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

I made a post answering each of your questions. You must have missed that.

He didn't miss it; you, like the rest of us, just gave him an answer he didn't want to hear so he's pretending nobody has answered his question. As I said before it's like trying to reason with a four year old. You're just wasting your time engaging the child any further. I honestly believe some of these people actually suffer from mental illness because I don't know how else such irrationality can be explained. This is the behavior Barry Goldwater warned about 50 years ago and we've seen how dangerous it is in places like the Middle East when it's taken to the extreme.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

I made a post answering each of your questions. You must have missed that.

He didn't miss it; you, like the rest of us, just gave him an answer he didn't want to hear so he's pretending nobody has answered his question. As I said before it's like trying to reason with a four year old. You're just wasting your time engaging the child any further. I honestly believe some of these people actually suffer from mental illness because I don't know how else such irrationality can be explained. This is the behavior Barry Goldwater warned about 50 years ago and we've seen how dangerous it is in places like the Middle East when it's taken to the extreme.

ROFLMNAO!

Adorable...

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Don't you think that we should go back to our Christian values? Liberalism is a road to nowhere, it's just impossible to become absolutely 'free'. Christian way of life is the perfect way to reach happiness and protestant ethics help people to work better and earn more. It's not like we need to become religious. There are just too many good things in the Christian way of life which are almost completely forgotten nowadays.

More reactionary nonsense from the right, where conservatives seek to return America to an idealized past that never actually existed, an American past far from 'ideal' for African-Americans, women, gay Americans, and Hispanic Americans, just to name a few.

And the notion that Christianity has a 'monopoly' on 'happiness' and 'morality' is unfounded idiocy; millions of Americans of other faiths – as well as those free from faith – enjoy perfectly happy, moral lives.

This is yet another example of the arrogance common to many Christians.

 

[Davros]

Morality is what we feel individually. Society enforces the dominant collective societal morality that survives through written moral codes and unwritten moral traditions. Morality exists for the benefit of society, and through the benefit to society also to the benefit of the individual. Things go wrong when a society's collective morality gets warped ... i.e. no longer beneficial ... and such societies eventually get wiped out e.g. Babylon, Rome, Berlin, and Baghdad ... some day soon Raqqa.

 

[RandomVariable]

By Christian values one is presumably referring to the teachings of Christ which I would sum up to be, "Turn the other cheek." That would make for a rather ineffective court system I would guess.

ROFLMNAO~

Christ submitted to a beating of the incomprehensible variety, FOR YOUR SIN... having, he, himself committed no sin, to give YOU a chance to avoid spending eternity in incomprehensible anguish... And you feel that THIS GUY is a 'turn the other cheek' guy?

ROFLMNAO~

Understand, this is "The Guy" that, if you reject his gift is going to send you into ETERNITY, in what he described as 'hell's Fire', as a means to describe what you've got coming to you?

THIS GUY, you feel is a door mat, that you feel you can con into letting you off for your offenses against God?

LOL!

Now... THAT, is adorable.

You are missing the factor of timing. (Although I am glad you had a chance to enjoy some floor time just the same.) Jesus advocates for letting God carry out His will, in His time. Jesus says if someone does you wrong it is all part of God's plan and God will settle the score when and where He chooses. Muslims have a slightly different take. They say if anyone breaks the law of god, as they have it written, the law must be enforced immediately and absolutely.

God's will is the outcome. If God wills someone to beat my ass, my ass will be beat. No contest from me on that.

But to get to that, God's will must overcome the knives, the side-arms and several mags. If my ass is beat then God willed it. Nothing I can do about that.

But as Jesus pointed out God gave me my life, it is therefore my responsibility to defend that life from those who would rise against God and strip me of that which God gave me.

Muslims are the manifestation of raw, unadulterated evil and are irrelevant in terms of God's will. Now, from what I can see, God wants Islam Dead... as they die every single time their head explodes and this without exception.

I watched some video of Apache Attacks last night and from what I can see, God is a MAJOR proponent of Apaches... as they burn through Islam like a hot knife through Islam.

Again it is the nuance of timing and the question of following Christian values. So is it practical to live by the values Christ, Jesus, espoused? Jesus thought that one should live as if God is in control of all things; if slapped on one cheek, turn the other, god must have had a reason; if a woman gets pregnant, the child should be born, god must have had a reason; if there is a sinner unless one is without sin they can not judge another. I mentioned Islam as a contrast. Islam teaches that god is not in control of all things and that one must identify and eliminate sin, no questions asked, no answers required. Even a sinner can enforce the law of god in Islam.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Morality is what we feel individually. Society enforces the dominant collective societal morality that survives through written moral codes and unwritten moral traditions. Morality exists for the benefit of society, and through the benefit to society also to the benefit of the individual. Things go wrong when a society's collective morality gets warped ... i.e. no longer beneficial ... and such societies eventually get wiped out e.g. Babylon, Rome, Berlin, and Baghdad ... some day soon Raqqa.

So if you feel that killing an innocent baby is "Moral" them killing a baby is moral?

Reader, do you see how easy this is?

A societies morals only get warped when the individuals in that society turn from the laws of God, which define morality. Thus taking upon themselves what THEY EACH INDIVIDUALLY determine to be THEIR OWN MORALITY... OKA: Human Secularism, AKA: Relativism.

At which time the culture begins its slide into extinction. Which is where Western Culture is currently.

Again, the key to defeating Leftist in debate rests in two fundamental elements:

1- Find a Leftist

2- Get them to speak.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Again it is the nuance of timing and the question of following Christian values. So is it practical to live by the values Christ, Jesus, espoused? Jesus thought that one should live as if God is in control of all things; if slapped on one cheek, turn the other, god must have had a reason; if a woman gets pregnant, the child should be born, god must have had a reason; if there is a sinner unless one is without sin they can not judge another. I mentioned Islam as a contrast. Islam teaches that god is not in control of all things and that one must identify and eliminate sin, no questions asked, no answers required. Even a sinner can enforce the law of god in Islam.

'Turn the other cheek' is not a command to allow others to beat on you, the expression is set within the context of the people to whom Christ was addressing; who were Semites.

A God fearing Semite would only slap you with their clean hand... by turning the other cheek, you invite the individual to strike you with their unclean hand... which was a sin. Where the individual moved to slapped you with their unclean hand, they were exposed as a sinner and, in so doing they would immediately establish themselves as being unworthy of God's trust, thus unworthy of the life God had given them.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

More reactionary nonsense

ROFLMNAO!

Hey, Robespierre called from the 18th century and he wants his irrational PC REACTION back.

 

[RandomVariable]

Again it is the nuance of timing and the question of following Christian values. So is it practical to live by the values Christ, Jesus, espoused? Jesus thought that one should live as if God is in control of all things; if slapped on one cheek, turn the other, god must have had a reason; if a woman gets pregnant, the child should be born, god must have had a reason; if there is a sinner unless one is without sin they can not judge another. I mentioned Islam as a contrast. Islam teaches that god is not in control of all things and that one must identify and eliminate sin, no questions asked, no answers required. Even a sinner can enforce the law of god in Islam.

'Turn the other cheek' is not a command to allow others to beat on you, the expression is set within the context of the people to whom Christ was addressing; who were Semites.

A God fearing Semite would only slap you with their clean hand... by turning the other cheek, you invite the individual to strike you with their unclean hand... which was a sin. Where the individual moved to slapped you with their unclean hand, they were exposed as a sinner and, in so doing they would immediately establish themselves as being unworthy of God's trust, thus unworthy of the life God had given them.

Matthew 5 KJV

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Again it is the nuance of timing and the question of following Christian values. So is it practical to live by the values Christ, Jesus, espoused? Jesus thought that one should live as if God is in control of all things; if slapped on one cheek, turn the other, god must have had a reason; if a woman gets pregnant, the child should be born, god must have had a reason; if there is a sinner unless one is without sin they can not judge another. I mentioned Islam as a contrast. Islam teaches that god is not in control of all things and that one must identify and eliminate sin, no questions asked, no answers required. Even a sinner can enforce the law of god in Islam.

'Turn the other cheek' is not a command to allow others to beat on you, the expression is set within the context of the people to whom Christ was addressing; who were Semites.

A God fearing Semite would only slap you with their clean hand... by turning the other cheek, you invite the individual to strike you with their unclean hand... which was a sin. Where the individual moved to slapped you with their unclean hand, they were exposed as a sinner and, in so doing they would immediately establish themselves as being unworthy of God's trust, thus unworthy of the life God had given them.

Matthew 5 KJV

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

Yes yes... The Scriptures as interpreted by the Godless... what could be of less potential value?

Turn the other cheek to test the cleanliness of the individual. If he sues you to take your coat, give them your cloak also, to test his heart... If they force you to walk a mile, walk two... to test their determination... .

What is it about these lessons that confuses you people?

Christ subjected himself to unimaginable pain and suffering to PAY YOUR DEBT... You REJECT HIS GIFT and then come to confuse his flock with your foolish interpretation that THIS MAN IS A PERSON WHO YOU CAN FOOL THROUGH YOUR OWN FOOLISHNESS?

A man that will subject himself to such a price, is a man who KNOWS THE PRICE and UNDERSTANDS THAT THE PRICE MUST BE PAID.

Understand Reader... Christ paid the price ONLY for those who accept him, as their Lord and Savior. It is a GIFT TO YOU. Your rejection of Christ serves only to subject yourself to the penalty of DEATH... THE HARD WAY.

You believe that Christ's way is the easy way?

ROFL! Guess again... . As in most everything else, the Ideological Left is dead wrong about Christ... .

The Narrow Path is such because THE MAJORITY is always WRONG.

 

[flacaltenn]

You don't have a monopoly over common sense lists of morals because you were the first to record them.
Doesn't work that way.. In fact Hammurabi would have an interesting case at US trademark court on the "ownership" question... The argument that morality doesn't exist if you're not enrolled in a faith-based institution which cites morality as contingent on FAITH is actually a weaker justification to practice those moral codes.

Those moral codes should be based on reason and empirical observations about humanity in a much broader sense. If you think I'm foolish to say that -- you ought to realize that one of the worlds LARGEST religions that SHARES the 10 commandments (in theory) is being pummeled today for their "adaptation" of these moral codes. And yes -- I'm referring to Islam. FAITH in God is NOT sufficient to deny these truths to "non-religious" people as an excersize in reason and observation..

The ten commandments were given to Moses by God and Christians are to keep those commandments, Flacaltenn. I agree with you that atheists can live good moral lives. If it were not true we would not be able to find such examples in the Bible, yet we can.

I have known families who do not acknowledge God in any way and have lived lives that would put some who say they are Christian to shame. One family I am thinking of has given to charities, raised their children to be very productive members of society and are very warm, compassionate, caring individuals. Yet they do not follow any religion and have no part of it. I will add that they are Jews but secular Jews who do not believe in following God. So what can we derive from this?

First, I thought of Jeremiah 35 which I'll post here - second I thought of Matthew 22 and the verse where it says those who were invited to come to God's Wedding Banquet for His Son refused to come. Then when they refused to come and turned on God's servants (whom He had sent out) God said they were not worthy and he told His servants to go out into the highway and byways to invite "the good and the bad" to come in so that his banquet hall would be filled. And the good and the bad came in.

Who were the good and the bad? Good people and bad people who had no relationship with God! That's who. People we might call "atheists". Who knows that Don'tTazMeBro's friend will not be among that number when the time comes? You know? God looks upon the heart of a man. Men look at the outer appearance and works of a person but what is the motive behind those works? As we see in the parable of Matthew 22 it certainly wasn't the love of God motivating them. It was something else. Because they had left their first love and refused to return - they lost their salvation and the good and the bad took their place at the wedding banquet for God's Son.

So with that? I agree with you that people who do not believe in God can have good morals. In fact, they can have the very best of morals! Still without Christ, they cannot enter in because it is only through receiving Jesus Christ and being covered by the Blood of the Lamb that we can enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is the story the LORD reminded me of (after reading this thread / discussion). It's a story about the Rechabites. They were not of Israel but I believe they were included in the Abrahamic covenant. As you will see by this story - these Rechabites obeyed their earthly father faithfully whereas God used them as an example to ask His own children why can't you do the same for me as they do for their father? Look at their faithfulness to their earthly father (their good morals!) their obedience, their willingness to obey their earthly father without question! Even out of love for their earthly father!

It was quite a lesson for the Israelites and it should equally be a lesson for Christians today. If the world can honor their earthly fathers - how much more so should the Children of God Honor God by their obedience and holy lives?

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 35 - King James Version

The ten commandments were given to Moses by God and Christians are to keep those commandments, Flacaltenn. I agree with you that atheists can live good moral lives. If it were not true we would not be able to find such examples in the Bible, yet we can.

I have known families who do not acknowledge God in any way and have lived lives that would put some who say they are Christian to shame. One family I am thinking of has given to charities, raised their children to be very productive members of society and are very warm, compassionate, caring individuals. Yet they do not follow any religion and have no part of it. I will add that they are Jews but secular Jews who do not believe in or follow God (attending synagogue or Judaism). So what can we derive from this?

First, I thought of Jeremiah 35 which I'll post here - second I thought of Matthew 22 and the verse where it says those who were invited to come to God's Wedding Banquet for His Son refused to come. Then God when they refused to come and turned on God's servants (whom He had sent out) God said they were not worthy and he told His servants to go out into the highway and byways to invite "the good and the bad" to come in so that his banquet hall would be filled. And the good and the bad came in.

Who were the good and the bad? Good people and bad people who had no relationship with God! That's who. People we might call "atheists". Who knows that Don'tTazMeBro's friend will not be among that number when the time comes? You know? God looks upon the heart of a man. Men look at the outer appearance and works of a person but what is the motive behind those works? As we see in the parable of Matthew 22 it certainly wasn't the love of God motivating them. It was something else. Because they had left their first love and refused to return - they lost their salvation and the good and the bad took their place at the wedding banquet for God's Son.

So with that? I agree with you that people who do not believe in God can have good morals. In fact, they can have the very best of morals! Still without Christ, they cannot enter in because it is only through receiving Jesus Christ and being covered by the Blood of the Lamb that we can enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is the story the LORD reminded me of (after reading this thread / discussion). It's a story about the Rechabites. They were not of Israel but I believe they were included in the Abrahamic covenant. As you will see by this story - these Rechabites obeyed their earthly father faithfully whereas God used them as an example to ask His own children why can't you do the same for me as they do for their father? Look at their faithfulness to their earthly father (their good morals!) their obedience, their willingness to obey their earthly father without question! Even out of love for their earthly father!

It was quite a lesson for the Israelites and it should equally be a lesson for Christians today. If the world can honor their earthly fathers - how much more so should the Children of God Honor God by their obedience and holy lives?

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 35 - King James Version

Jeremiah 35 King James Version (KJV)
35 The word which came unto Jeremiah from the Lord in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, saying,

2 Go unto the house of the Rechabites, and speak unto them, and bring them into the house of the Lord, into one of the chambers, and give them wine to drink.

3 Then I took Jaazaniah the son of Jeremiah, the son of Habaziniah, and his brethren, and all his sons, and the whole house of the Rechabites;

4 And I brought them into the house of the Lord, into the chamber of the sons of Hanan, the son of Igdaliah, a man of God, which was by the chamber of the princes, which was above the chamber of Maaseiah the son of Shallum, the keeper of the door:

5 And I set before the sons of the house of the Rechabites pots full of wine, and cups, and I said unto them, Drink ye wine.

6 But they said, We will drink no wine: for Jonadab the son of Rechab our father commanded us, saying, Ye shall drink no wine, neither ye, nor your sons for ever:

7 Neither shall ye build house, nor sow seed, nor plant vineyard, nor have any: but all your days ye shall dwell in tents; that ye may live many days in the land where ye be strangers.

8 Thus have we obeyed the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab our father in all that he hath charged us, to drink no wine all our days, we, our wives, our sons, nor our daughters;

9 Nor to build houses for us to dwell in: neither have we vineyard, nor field, nor seed:

10 But we have dwelt in tents, and have obeyed, and done according to all that Jonadab our father commanded us.

11 But it came to pass, when Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon came up into the land, that we said, Come, and let us go to Jerusalem for fear of the army of the Chaldeans, and for fear of the army of the Syrians: so we dwell at Jerusalem.

12 Then came the word of the Lord unto Jeremiah, saying,

13 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Go and tell the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Will ye not receive instruction to hearken to my words? saith the Lord.

14 The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, that he commanded his sons not to drink wine, are performed; for unto this day they drink none, but obey their father's commandment: notwithstanding I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; but ye hearkened not unto me.

15 I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.

16 Because the sons of Jonadab the son of Rechab have performed the commandment of their father, which he commanded them; but this people hath not hearkened unto me:

17 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

18 And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:

19 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.

King James Version (KJV)

I'm certainly not generalizing here.. I choose to live amongst people of faith because I admire their discipline and devotion.. And with them -- I KNOW what the expectations should be thru God's word.. I can SEE the dedication to the task from their actions every day in the Bible belt. And it shows in their children.

I have no such guidance for the "independents" who claim to have a personal moral code and discipline.

What I'm saying is -- with enough discipline and dedication --- folks CAN develop equivalent moral values WITHOUT the institutionalized assistance. OBEYING divine words is a GOOD way to accomplish that -- but not the only way.. Without Weight Watchers -- you can still beat gluttony and sloth.. Without a congregation, you can still know right and wrong. But not without the same amount of dedication to the task that a Church going Christian or Synagogue worshipping Jew puts into it during a year.

Absent God there is no potential for a moral code... as the morality merely becomes your opinion over the next guys.

God's authority is what provides morality... and absent that, it's just the short road to chaos, calamity and catastrophe.

Wrong. Many societies have developed moral code. According to you, only the Judeo-Christian societies did it under the guidance of a real god. But the Babylonians, Egyptians, Chinese, Persians, Greeks, Indians, etc, etc, etc all developed moral codes without the guidance of your god. So ... you are absolutely wrong.

Stating a moral code and BEING A MORAL CODE are two entirely different things.

You and your coven mates have proven that throughout this thread through your inability to answer the standing queries.

If it helps, I've presented that same challenge thousands of times and to date, not a single valid response has come forth on any of dozens of sites.

How hard is it for you to understand that Christian values are good values. THey are just not EXCLUSIVE to the club because you received them from God.. It's pretty arrogant to believe you OWN EXCLUSIVELY a prohibition against adultery for example. Is that why you're pissed? Because no one else can possess that value without paying homage to you or your church?

I'll tell you one moral value that MAY be in the Bible -- but it not a front page hell-burner. And that is TOLERANCE for the actions of others -- even if you disagree with the choices. Seems like you are demonstrating that one clearly right now as we speak..

As to the OP -- there is a desperate need to return to morality and values in this country. We are being consumed by sin. Whether defined as biblical or not...