Christian values

[norwegen]

Could you imagine how boring life would be? A bunch of watered down entertainment and listening to someone read from that god awful book every Sunday? No thanks man. I like porn, football and shit that isnt lame as fuck.

One day, when a Puritan man married an Indian woman, he was executed with two horses. They tied each leg to a horse and pulled him apart.

Break out your popcorn.

 

[norwegen]

first off, you will need some natives to kill to be able to take their land, then a minority to suppress and have over for an occasional lynching

Yeah, usually when you get specific about when exactly the 'good old days' were, things get a little vague. Its usually an imaginary amalgam spanning a century, cherry picking real or perceived virtues while ignoring the truck sized flaws.

Yes... and this is because, no matter how much ya ignore the Left... they're always there to take the Foreign Perspective. And THAT dear Reader, is how we can KNOW, to a certainty, that THEY, are not with US.

You do realize that the 'Reader' you claim to be speaking to...is just you talking to yourself, right?

Oh, and when were the 'good old days'? You know when we implemented good old Christian values. Specifically. Name the year.

The United States of America never did but the pilgrims who established a british theocratic monarchy did.

These were the same people who burned mostly women at the stake for being witches. They put people in stocks in the public square too. They also pretty much decimated the native indian populations in the areas they moved into.

They're the same people who the founders of The United States of America went to war with to become free from the theocratic monarchy in England. They won that war then went on to establish a secular nation The United States of America.

Right wingers have a problem with mixing up what the pilgrims established with what the founders of the United States of America established. They seem to believe that the revolutionary war was won by the theocrats. In reality the theocrats lost.

The United States of America implemented "good old Christian values" when it seceded from the commonwealth, when it appealed to the "Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of [its inhabitants'] intentions," when it relied on divine Providence when the founders pledged their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor.

The Puritans didn't burn anyone at any stake and did not decimate any native population. They hanged people (their own) and only their European counterparts warred with the natives (organizational, technological, and epidemiological advantages made it easy), the most brutal being the Spaniards and the Russians.

And how in the hell do you get the idea that the Americans wanted to leave England while the Puritans didn't? They all left the motherland, remember? They were on the same side. Duh.

Leftards have a problem with history.

 

[AvgGuyIA]

What are you talking about, dumb ass? You need to have it explained to you that you and 7 billion other people on the planet are alive? That's pretty much indisputable.

What isn't proven is the existence of your magical sky fairy, and the 2000 other ones that people worship around the world, for which is there is zero evidence. The challenge is for you to prove your mythology, which you can't. It's not up to me prove a negative.

. Try taking all the building blocks of this universe in a jar. Shake it for a couple billion years and see if you can create a perfectly balance universe we occupy, right down to your body with all the organs functioning in such a way to keep you living.

It won't happen. A universe this perfectly organized and run can only come from the hand of a Creator. Don't mater if you believe it or not. Explain how a single point exploded and all this just randomly came to be. You really have to have FAITH to believe that shit.

 

[RandomVariable]

I am Random Variable. God sent me.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

What are you talking about, dumb ass? You need to have it explained to you that you and 7 billion other people on the planet are alive? That's pretty much indisputable.

What isn't proven is the existence of your magical sky fairy, and the 2000 other ones that people worship around the world, for which is there is zero evidence. The challenge is for you to prove your mythology, which you can't. It's not up to me prove a negative.

. Try taking all the building blocks of this universe in a jar. Shake it for a couple billion years and see if you can create a perfectly balance universe we occupy, right down to your body with all the organs functioning in such a way to keep you living.

It won't happen. A universe this perfectly organized and run can only come from the hand of a Creator. Don't mater if you believe it or not. Explain how a single point exploded and all this just randomly came to be. You really have to have FAITH to believe that shit.

It points to no such thing whatsoever. For all we know, your "Creator" could be an alien species from another galaxy 100 light years away, maybe even another universe. We could be somebody's science experiment.

The fact that you can't explain nor understand it isn't proof of some magical being creating everything. Throughout human history people attributed deities to events they couldn't explain and as science began providing answers those gods died away. We don't worship sun gods anymore or throw virgins into a volcano to appease the harvest god. We know what makes the sun rise and fall and what causes droughts and earthquakes. Someday we'll probably figure out more answers to the universe, life, and death, and your religion will go the way of the dinosaurs.

 

[Avatar4321]

who is stopping you from returning to Christian values?

 

[Davros]

SO... Now LET'S Return to the Relevant Discussion:

The challenge which they've now repeatedly failed to rise toward, is for the Advocates of Godlessness to explain how morality and the ethics derived from such, are possible in the absence of God.

In the absence of God:

What are morals?
What purpose do morals serve?
On what authority do they rest? (Which is to ask: From where do these would-be morals come?)
On what basis are such enforced?
What serves to enforce such?

Morals are a person's feelings of right and wrong.

A moral person, who feels strong morals that are beneficial to others, had a net positive effect on society, and can inspire others to have an even greater positive effect on society. That is the benefit of morals.

Morals rest on the authority of the individual, but collectively, they rest on the authority of a great many individuals who recognize that strong morals protect society from evil

Society collectively enforces morals ... by rewarding good behavior, and punishing bad behavior. For example, when you help others, others are more enthusiastic about helping you. People like good people.

There you go chief ... morality without God. In the tradition of AA, the group can be a higher power than the individual.

 

[Skylar]

What are you talking about, dumb ass? You need to have it explained to you that you and 7 billion other people on the planet are alive? That's pretty much indisputable.

What isn't proven is the existence of your magical sky fairy, and the 2000 other ones that people worship around the world, for which is there is zero evidence. The challenge is for you to prove your mythology, which you can't. It's not up to me prove a negative.

. Try taking all the building blocks of this universe in a jar. Shake it for a couple billion years and see if you can create a perfectly balance universe we occupy, right down to your body with all the organs functioning in such a way to keep you living.

It won't happen. A universe this perfectly organized and run can only come from the hand of a Creator. Don't mater if you believe it or not. Explain how a single point exploded and all this just randomly came to be. You really have to have FAITH to believe that shit.

You don't know that. So far the odds are 1 in 1. And the one thing we know incontrovertibly is that we're here. We've seen again and again that organization is perfectly natural and will happen given the right circumstances. Which are apparently abundant in the universe given enough time.

Gravity will clump stray gas into a solar system. Organic molecules are ludicrously common. And life, once its started, adapts to meet the circumstances of the environment. As the environment changes, so does life. You have yet to even establish the need for a creator. Let alone the certainty of one. You merely assume it must be so.

Worse, you're offering us supernatural explanations for natural events. And that's not a rational explanation. But an explicitly irrational one.

And finally, nothing mandates that a 'creator' be good. Or moral. Or even exist after creating. Further eroding the religious narrative. Its assumption based on assumption based on assumption, like a Russian nested doll. And at its center is no evidence. Merely naked belief.

 

[Davros]

What are you talking about, dumb ass? You need to have it explained to you that you and 7 billion other people on the planet are alive? That's pretty much indisputable.

What isn't proven is the existence of your magical sky fairy, and the 2000 other ones that people worship around the world, for which is there is zero evidence. The challenge is for you to prove your mythology, which you can't. It's not up to me prove a negative.

. Try taking all the building blocks of this universe in a jar. Shake it for a couple billion years and see if you can create a perfectly balance universe we occupy, right down to your body with all the organs functioning in such a way to keep you living.

It won't happen. A universe this perfectly organized and run can only come from the hand of a Creator. Don't mater if you believe it or not. Explain how a single point exploded and all this just randomly came to be. You really have to have FAITH to believe that shit.

The development of a living thing from a single cell seemed like it was random ... until we learned about how biological development happens. Things can seem random due to our lack of knowledge without actually being random.

Primitive people understood that men could build things, but the didn't understand how nature built things so they assumed that a "human like" god must have been responsible for it.

How did the universe come to be ... nobody knows. But the answer "it happened by natural processes" requires no more faith than "God did it".

It's very easy to read the Torah and say "this is absurd and it can't be true" whether or not you actually know the true story (and nobody likely does know the true story of how Israel came to be and why they adopted the religious beliefs that they did).

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

By Christian values one is presumably referring to the teachings of Christ which I would sum up to be, "Turn the other cheek." That would make for a rather ineffective court system I would guess.

ROFLMNAO~

Christ submitted to a beating of the incomprehensible variety, FOR YOUR SIN... having, he, himself committed no sin, to give YOU a chance to avoid spending eternity in incomprehensible anguish... And you feel that THIS GUY is a 'turn the other cheek' guy?

ROFLMNAO~

Understand, this is "The Guy" that, if you reject his gift is going to send you into ETERNITY, in what he described as 'hell's Fire', as a means to describe what you've got coming to you?

THIS GUY, you feel is a door mat, that you feel you can con into letting you off for your offenses against God?

LOL!

Now... THAT, is adorable.

You are missing the factor of timing. (Although I am glad you had a chance to enjoy some floor time just the same.) Jesus advocates for letting God carry out His will, in His time. Jesus says if someone does you wrong it is all part of God's plan and God will settle the score when and where He chooses. Muslims have a slightly different take. They say if anyone breaks the law of god, as they have it written, the law must be enforced immediately and absolutely.

God's will is the outcome. If God wills someone to beat my ass, my ass will be beat. No contest from me on that.

But to get to that, God's will must overcome the knives, the side-arms and several mags. If my ass is beat then God willed it. Nothing I can do about that.

But as Jesus pointed out God gave me my life, it is therefore my responsibility to defend that life from those who would rise against God and strip me of that which God gave me.

Muslims are the manifestation of raw, unadulterated evil and are irrelevant in terms of God's will. Now, from what I can see, God wants Islam Dead... as they die every single time their head explodes and this without exception.

I watched some video of Apache Attacks last night and from what I can see, God is a MAJOR proponent of Apaches... as they burn through Islam like a hot knife through Islam.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Ten Commandments are Jewish and, Judea/Christian Morals are what is at issue here.

Actually, only three of the Ten Commandments have any force of law.

Well, I agree... the Law is pretty sad these days.


But hey, such is the nature of Evil tho', now ain't it?

And... when ya allow the Left a say in governance, you're gonna get weak law and THAT is going to result in the rapid decline of the culture.

And one need look no farther for evidence of THAT, than the US Culture as it collapses under the dead weight of Leftism.

No surprise there.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

What are you talking about, dumb ass? You need to have it explained to you that you and 7 billion other people on the planet are alive? That's pretty much indisputable.

What isn't proven is the existence of your magical sky fairy, and the 2000 other ones that people worship around the world, for which is there is zero evidence. The challenge is for you to prove your mythology, which you can't. It's not up to me prove a negative.

. Try taking all the building blocks of this universe in a jar. Shake it for a couple billion years and see if you can create a perfectly balance universe we occupy, right down to your body with all the organs functioning in such a way to keep you living.

It won't happen. A universe this perfectly organized and run can only come from the hand of a Creator. Don't mater if you believe it or not. Explain how a single point exploded and all this just randomly came to be. You really have to have FAITH to believe that shit.

The development of a living thing from a single cell seemed like it was random ... until we learned about how biological development happens. Things can seem random due to our lack of knowledge without actually being random.

Primitive people understood that men could build things, but the didn't understand how nature built things so they assumed that a "human like" god must have been responsible for it.

How did the universe come to be ... nobody knows. But the answer "it happened by natural processes" requires no more faith than "God did it".

It's very easy to read the Torah and say "this is absurd and it can't be true" whether or not you actually know the true story (and nobody likely does know the true story of how Israel came to be and why they adopted the religious beliefs that they did).

What is absurd is Leftists trying to explain GOD, when they're still SHOCKED that the CLIMATE CHANGES!

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

OH! Now THAT is brilliant.

Do the Board a favor and cite us a few morals which you recognize that are derived wholly separate from Christianity.

And please... this is key, explain to the board how, in the absence of God, morals are an essential element of humanity.

Lying, cheating, murder, adultery --- IOW --- MOST of the 10 Commandments.. Which by the way ain't Christian.

These are things that most MORAL folks agree on. It's the principles built from DISCIPLINE and TRADITION that may make religiously observant people more likely to PRACTICE those morals..

You think there is a Christian TMark on morals? If ya do --- the Jews and Hammurabi are gonna sue you for infringement..

I LIKE folks who show enough discipline to seek out others likeminded and regularly discuss these things. It shows that they VALUE them. But folks can value the same moral code without the "Jenny Craig" support group... Or maybe you only need Weight Watchers for a couple months until you receive the message..

Ten Commandments are Jewish and, Judea/Christian Morals are what is at issue here.

But what I am sensing is that while you'd love to offer an example of a moral that is not founded directly in such, you're unable to do so. And further you're unable to speak to any of the other queries relevant to the challenge.

Which is pretty much where the standard says you would be.

Thanks for participating.

Your concession is Duly noted and Summarily accepted.

Ya did the best ya could...

.

.

.

SO... Now LET'S Return to the Relevant Discussion:

The challenge which they've now repeatedly failed to rise toward, is for the Advocates of Godlessness to explain how morality and the ethics derived from such, are possible in the absence of God.

In the absence of God:

What are morals?
What purpose do morals serve?
On what authority do they rest? (Which is to ask: From where do these would-be morals come?)
On what basis are such enforced?
What serves to enforce such?

You don't have a monopoly over common sense lists of morals because you were the first to record them.
Doesn't work that way.. In fact Hammurabi would have an interesting case at US trademark court on the "ownership" question... The argument that morality doesn't exist if you're not enrolled in a faith-based institution which cites morality as contingent on FAITH is actually a weaker justification to practice those moral codes.

Those moral codes should be based on reason and empirical observations about humanity in a much broader sense. If you think I'm foolish to say that -- you ought to realize that one of the worlds LARGEST religions that SHARES the 10 commandments (in theory) is being pummeled today for their "adaptation" of these moral codes. And yes -- I'm referring to Islam. FAITH in God is NOT sufficient to deny these truths to "non-religious" people as an excersize in reason and observation..

In the absence of God, there is no potential for happiness, as there is no means for human rights... .

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

OH! Now THAT is brilliant.

Do the Board a favor and cite us a few morals which you recognize that are derived wholly separate from Christianity.

And please... this is key, explain to the board how, in the absence of God, morals are an essential element of humanity.

The ten commandments were given to Moses by God and Christians are to keep those commandments, Flacaltenn. I agree with you that atheists can live good moral lives. If it were not true we would not be able to find such examples in the Bible, yet we can.

I have known families who do not acknowledge God in any way and have lived lives that would put some who say they are Christian to shame. One family I am thinking of has given to charities, raised their children to be very productive members of society and are very warm, compassionate, caring individuals. Yet they do not follow any religion and have no part of it. I will add that they are Jews but secular Jews who do not believe in following God. So what can we derive from this?

First, I thought of Jeremiah 35 which I'll post here - second I thought of Matthew 22 and the verse where it says those who were invited to come to God's Wedding Banquet for His Son refused to come. Then when they refused to come and turned on God's servants (whom He had sent out) God said they were not worthy and he told His servants to go out into the highway and byways to invite "the good and the bad" to come in so that his banquet hall would be filled. And the good and the bad came in.

Who were the good and the bad? Good people and bad people who had no relationship with God! That's who. People we might call "atheists". Who knows that Don'tTazMeBro's friend will not be among that number when the time comes? You know? God looks upon the heart of a man. Men look at the outer appearance and works of a person but what is the motive behind those works? As we see in the parable of Matthew 22 it certainly wasn't the love of God motivating them. It was something else. Because they had left their first love and refused to return - they lost their salvation and the good and the bad took their place at the wedding banquet for God's Son.

So with that? I agree with you that people who do not believe in God can have good morals. In fact, they can have the very best of morals! Still without Christ, they cannot enter in because it is only through receiving Jesus Christ and being covered by the Blood of the Lamb that we can enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is the story the LORD reminded me of (after reading this thread / discussion). It's a story about the Rechabites. They were not of Israel but I believe they were included in the Abrahamic covenant. As you will see by this story - these Rechabites obeyed their earthly father faithfully whereas God used them as an example to ask His own children why can't you do the same for me as they do for their father? Look at their faithfulness to their earthly father (their good morals!) their obedience, their willingness to obey their earthly father without question! Even out of love for their earthly father!

It was quite a lesson for the Israelites and it should equally be a lesson for Christians today. If the world can honor their earthly fathers - how much more so should the Children of God Honor God by their obedience and holy lives?

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 35 - King James Version

The ten commandments were given to Moses by God and Christians are to keep those commandments, Flacaltenn. I agree with you that atheists can live good moral lives. If it were not true we would not be able to find such examples in the Bible, yet we can.

I have known families who do not acknowledge God in any way and have lived lives that would put some who say they are Christian to shame. One family I am thinking of has given to charities, raised their children to be very productive members of society and are very warm, compassionate, caring individuals. Yet they do not follow any religion and have no part of it. I will add that they are Jews but secular Jews who do not believe in or follow God (attending synagogue or Judaism). So what can we derive from this?

First, I thought of Jeremiah 35 which I'll post here - second I thought of Matthew 22 and the verse where it says those who were invited to come to God's Wedding Banquet for His Son refused to come. Then God when they refused to come and turned on God's servants (whom He had sent out) God said they were not worthy and he told His servants to go out into the highway and byways to invite "the good and the bad" to come in so that his banquet hall would be filled. And the good and the bad came in.

Who were the good and the bad? Good people and bad people who had no relationship with God! That's who. People we might call "atheists". Who knows that Don'tTazMeBro's friend will not be among that number when the time comes? You know? God looks upon the heart of a man. Men look at the outer appearance and works of a person but what is the motive behind those works? As we see in the parable of Matthew 22 it certainly wasn't the love of God motivating them. It was something else. Because they had left their first love and refused to return - they lost their salvation and the good and the bad took their place at the wedding banquet for God's Son.

So with that? I agree with you that people who do not believe in God can have good morals. In fact, they can have the very best of morals! Still without Christ, they cannot enter in because it is only through receiving Jesus Christ and being covered by the Blood of the Lamb that we can enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is the story the LORD reminded me of (after reading this thread / discussion). It's a story about the Rechabites. They were not of Israel but I believe they were included in the Abrahamic covenant. As you will see by this story - these Rechabites obeyed their earthly father faithfully whereas God used them as an example to ask His own children why can't you do the same for me as they do for their father? Look at their faithfulness to their earthly father (their good morals!) their obedience, their willingness to obey their earthly father without question! Even out of love for their earthly father!

It was quite a lesson for the Israelites and it should equally be a lesson for Christians today. If the world can honor their earthly fathers - how much more so should the Children of God Honor God by their obedience and holy lives?

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 35 - King James Version

Jeremiah 35 King James Version (KJV)
35 The word which came unto Jeremiah from the Lord in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, saying,

2 Go unto the house of the Rechabites, and speak unto them, and bring them into the house of the Lord, into one of the chambers, and give them wine to drink.

3 Then I took Jaazaniah the son of Jeremiah, the son of Habaziniah, and his brethren, and all his sons, and the whole house of the Rechabites;

4 And I brought them into the house of the Lord, into the chamber of the sons of Hanan, the son of Igdaliah, a man of God, which was by the chamber of the princes, which was above the chamber of Maaseiah the son of Shallum, the keeper of the door:

5 And I set before the sons of the house of the Rechabites pots full of wine, and cups, and I said unto them, Drink ye wine.

6 But they said, We will drink no wine: for Jonadab the son of Rechab our father commanded us, saying, Ye shall drink no wine, neither ye, nor your sons for ever:

7 Neither shall ye build house, nor sow seed, nor plant vineyard, nor have any: but all your days ye shall dwell in tents; that ye may live many days in the land where ye be strangers.

8 Thus have we obeyed the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab our father in all that he hath charged us, to drink no wine all our days, we, our wives, our sons, nor our daughters;

9 Nor to build houses for us to dwell in: neither have we vineyard, nor field, nor seed:

10 But we have dwelt in tents, and have obeyed, and done according to all that Jonadab our father commanded us.

11 But it came to pass, when Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon came up into the land, that we said, Come, and let us go to Jerusalem for fear of the army of the Chaldeans, and for fear of the army of the Syrians: so we dwell at Jerusalem.

12 Then came the word of the Lord unto Jeremiah, saying,

13 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Go and tell the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Will ye not receive instruction to hearken to my words? saith the Lord.

14 The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, that he commanded his sons not to drink wine, are performed; for unto this day they drink none, but obey their father's commandment: notwithstanding I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; but ye hearkened not unto me.

15 I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.

16 Because the sons of Jonadab the son of Rechab have performed the commandment of their father, which he commanded them; but this people hath not hearkened unto me:

17 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

18 And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:

19 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.

King James Version (KJV)

I'm certainly not generalizing here.. I choose to live amongst people of faith because I admire their discipline and devotion.. And with them -- I KNOW what the expectations should be thru God's word.. I can SEE the dedication to the task from their actions every day in the Bible belt. And it shows in their children.

I have no such guidance for the "independents" who claim to have a personal moral code and discipline.

What I'm saying is -- with enough discipline and dedication --- folks CAN develop equivalent moral values WITHOUT the institutionalized assistance. OBEYING divine words is a GOOD way to accomplish that -- but not the only way.. Without Weight Watchers -- you can still beat gluttony and sloth.. Without a congregation, you can still know right and wrong. But not without the same amount of dedication to the task that a Church going Christian or Synagogue worshipping Jew puts into it during a year.

Absent God there is no potential for a moral code... as the morality merely becomes your opinion over the next guys.

God's authority is what provides morality... and absent that, it's just the short road to chaos, calamity and catastrophe.

 

[koshergrl]

Don't you think that we should go back to our Christian values? Liberalism is a road to nowhere, it's just impossible to become absolutely 'free'. Christian way of life is the perfect way to reach happiness and protestant ethics help people to work better and earn more. It's not like we need to become religious. There are just too many good things in the Christian way of life which are almost completely forgotten nowadays.

Old Christian values could be anything. Have you see torture places in Europe? Christian values? Ride off all the way to Jerusalem in order to fight. Christian values?

To be honest there are 1.5 billion Christians. Saying there is something called "Christian values" is misleading almost totally. Same as saying all Muslims are ISIS supporters.

"Torture places"? Lololol gads you sound like a rube.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

What are you talking about, dumb ass? You need to have it explained to you that you and 7 billion other people on the planet are alive? That's pretty much indisputable.

What isn't proven is the existence of your magical sky fairy, and the 2000 other ones that people worship around the world, for which is there is zero evidence. The challenge is for you to prove your mythology, which you can't. It's not up to me prove a negative.

. Try taking all the building blocks of this universe in a jar. Shake it for a couple billion years and see if you can create a perfectly balance universe we occupy, right down to your body with all the organs functioning in such a way to keep you living.

It won't happen. A universe this perfectly organized and run can only come from the hand of a Creator. Don't mater if you believe it or not. Explain how a single point exploded and all this just randomly came to be. You really have to have FAITH to believe that shit.

It points to no such thing whatsoever. For all we know, your "Creator" could be an alien species from another galaxy 100 light years away, maybe even another universe. We could be somebody's science experiment.

The fact that you can't explain nor understand it isn't proof of some magical being creating everything. Throughout human history people attributed deities to events they couldn't explain and as science began providing answers those gods died away. We don't worship sun gods anymore or throw virgins into a volcano to appease the harvest god. We know what makes the sun rise and fall and what causes droughts and earthquakes. Someday we'll probably figure out more answers to the universe, life, and death, and your religion will go the way of the dinosaurs.

Yes, we are someone's science experiment and that someone is God.

Now, the hysterical part is how you want to deny it, reject God and think you've some alternative available to ya.

Here's the good news: Ya don't. You're a child of God and you've no means to be anything but. Get over it or don't, either way ya go, it changes nothing.

 

[Davros]

What are you talking about, dumb ass? You need to have it explained to you that you and 7 billion other people on the planet are alive? That's pretty much indisputable.

What isn't proven is the existence of your magical sky fairy, and the 2000 other ones that people worship around the world, for which is there is zero evidence. The challenge is for you to prove your mythology, which you can't. It's not up to me prove a negative.

. Try taking all the building blocks of this universe in a jar. Shake it for a couple billion years and see if you can create a perfectly balance universe we occupy, right down to your body with all the organs functioning in such a way to keep you living.

It won't happen. A universe this perfectly organized and run can only come from the hand of a Creator. Don't mater if you believe it or not. Explain how a single point exploded and all this just randomly came to be. You really have to have FAITH to believe that shit.

The development of a living thing from a single cell seemed like it was random ... until we learned about how biological development happens. Things can seem random due to our lack of knowledge without actually being random.

Primitive people understood that men could build things, but the didn't understand how nature built things so they assumed that a "human like" god must have been responsible for it.

How did the universe come to be ... nobody knows. But the answer "it happened by natural processes" requires no more faith than "God did it".

It's very easy to read the Torah and say "this is absurd and it can't be true" whether or not you actually know the true story (and nobody likely does know the true story of how Israel came to be and why they adopted the religious beliefs that they did).

What is absurd is Leftists trying to explain GOD, when they're still SHOCKED that the CLIMATE CHANGES!

You don't understand the science of climate change. That is beyond clear.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Ten Commandments are Jewish and, Judea/Christian Morals are what is at issue here.

Actually, only three of the Ten Commandments have any force of law.

Well, I agree... the Law is pretty sad these days.

But hey, such is the nature of Evil tho', now ain't it?

And... when ya allow the Left a say in governance, you're gonna get weak law and THAT is going to result in the rapid decline of the culture.

And one need look no farther for evidence of THAT, than the US Culture as it collapses under the dead weight of Leftism.

No surprise there.

Dude, admit it: you want a return to the Inquisition, with you in the role of Torquemada. Do you masturbate to thoughts of burning anyone who disagrees with you?

Never have more than half of the Commandments had any force of law in this country. If you want one nation under God...try Iran.

 

[koshergrl]

What are you talking about, dumb ass? You need to have it explained to you that you and 7 billion other people on the planet are alive? That's pretty much indisputable.

What isn't proven is the existence of your magical sky fairy, and the 2000 other ones that people worship around the world, for which is there is zero evidence. The challenge is for you to prove your mythology, which you can't. It's not up to me prove a negative.

. Try taking all the building blocks of this universe in a jar. Shake it for a couple billion years and see if you can create a perfectly balance universe we occupy, right down to your body with all the organs functioning in such a way to keep you living.

It won't happen. A universe this perfectly organized and run can only come from the hand of a Creator. Don't mater if you believe it or not. Explain how a single point exploded and all this just randomly came to be. You really have to have FAITH to believe that shit.

The development of a living thing from a single cell seemed like it was random ... until we learned about how biological development happens. Things can seem random due to our lack of knowledge without actually being random.

Primitive people understood that men could build things, but the didn't understand how nature built things so they assumed that a "human like" god must have been responsible for it.

How did the universe come to be ... nobody knows. But the answer "it happened by natural processes" requires no more faith than "God did it".

It's very easy to read the Torah and say "this is absurd and it can't be true" whether or not you actually know the true story (and nobody likely does know the true story of how Israel came to be and why they adopted the religious beliefs that they did).

What is absurd is Leftists trying to explain GOD, when they're still SHOCKED that the CLIMATE CHANGES!

You don't understand the science of climate change. That is beyond clear.

When you say "science", you mean hoax, right?

 

[Davros]

Lying, cheating, murder, adultery --- IOW --- MOST of the 10 Commandments.. Which by the way ain't Christian.

These are things that most MORAL folks agree on. It's the principles built from DISCIPLINE and TRADITION that may make religiously observant people more likely to PRACTICE those morals..

You think there is a Christian TMark on morals? If ya do --- the Jews and Hammurabi are gonna sue you for infringement..

I LIKE folks who show enough discipline to seek out others likeminded and regularly discuss these things. It shows that they VALUE them. But folks can value the same moral code without the "Jenny Craig" support group... Or maybe you only need Weight Watchers for a couple months until you receive the message..

Ten Commandments are Jewish and, Judea/Christian Morals are what is at issue here.

But what I am sensing is that while you'd love to offer an example of a moral that is not founded directly in such, you're unable to do so. And further you're unable to speak to any of the other queries relevant to the challenge.

Which is pretty much where the standard says you would be.

Thanks for participating.

Your concession is Duly noted and Summarily accepted.

Ya did the best ya could...

.

.

.

SO... Now LET'S Return to the Relevant Discussion:

The challenge which they've now repeatedly failed to rise toward, is for the Advocates of Godlessness to explain how morality and the ethics derived from such, are possible in the absence of God.

In the absence of God:

What are morals?
What purpose do morals serve?
On what authority do they rest? (Which is to ask: From where do these would-be morals come?)
On what basis are such enforced?
What serves to enforce such?

You don't have a monopoly over common sense lists of morals because you were the first to record them.
Doesn't work that way.. In fact Hammurabi would have an interesting case at US trademark court on the "ownership" question... The argument that morality doesn't exist if you're not enrolled in a faith-based institution which cites morality as contingent on FAITH is actually a weaker justification to practice those moral codes.

Those moral codes should be based on reason and empirical observations about humanity in a much broader sense. If you think I'm foolish to say that -- you ought to realize that one of the worlds LARGEST religions that SHARES the 10 commandments (in theory) is being pummeled today for their "adaptation" of these moral codes. And yes -- I'm referring to Islam. FAITH in God is NOT sufficient to deny these truths to "non-religious" people as an excersize in reason and observation..

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

OH! Now THAT is brilliant.

Do the Board a favor and cite us a few morals which you recognize that are derived wholly separate from Christianity.

And please... this is key, explain to the board how, in the absence of God, morals are an essential element of humanity.

The ten commandments were given to Moses by God and Christians are to keep those commandments, Flacaltenn. I agree with you that atheists can live good moral lives. If it were not true we would not be able to find such examples in the Bible, yet we can.

I have known families who do not acknowledge God in any way and have lived lives that would put some who say they are Christian to shame. One family I am thinking of has given to charities, raised their children to be very productive members of society and are very warm, compassionate, caring individuals. Yet they do not follow any religion and have no part of it. I will add that they are Jews but secular Jews who do not believe in following God. So what can we derive from this?

First, I thought of Jeremiah 35 which I'll post here - second I thought of Matthew 22 and the verse where it says those who were invited to come to God's Wedding Banquet for His Son refused to come. Then when they refused to come and turned on God's servants (whom He had sent out) God said they were not worthy and he told His servants to go out into the highway and byways to invite "the good and the bad" to come in so that his banquet hall would be filled. And the good and the bad came in.

Who were the good and the bad? Good people and bad people who had no relationship with God! That's who. People we might call "atheists". Who knows that Don'tTazMeBro's friend will not be among that number when the time comes? You know? God looks upon the heart of a man. Men look at the outer appearance and works of a person but what is the motive behind those works? As we see in the parable of Matthew 22 it certainly wasn't the love of God motivating them. It was something else. Because they had left their first love and refused to return - they lost their salvation and the good and the bad took their place at the wedding banquet for God's Son.

So with that? I agree with you that people who do not believe in God can have good morals. In fact, they can have the very best of morals! Still without Christ, they cannot enter in because it is only through receiving Jesus Christ and being covered by the Blood of the Lamb that we can enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is the story the LORD reminded me of (after reading this thread / discussion). It's a story about the Rechabites. They were not of Israel but I believe they were included in the Abrahamic covenant. As you will see by this story - these Rechabites obeyed their earthly father faithfully whereas God used them as an example to ask His own children why can't you do the same for me as they do for their father? Look at their faithfulness to their earthly father (their good morals!) their obedience, their willingness to obey their earthly father without question! Even out of love for their earthly father!

It was quite a lesson for the Israelites and it should equally be a lesson for Christians today. If the world can honor their earthly fathers - how much more so should the Children of God Honor God by their obedience and holy lives?

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 35 - King James Version

The ten commandments were given to Moses by God and Christians are to keep those commandments, Flacaltenn. I agree with you that atheists can live good moral lives. If it were not true we would not be able to find such examples in the Bible, yet we can.

I have known families who do not acknowledge God in any way and have lived lives that would put some who say they are Christian to shame. One family I am thinking of has given to charities, raised their children to be very productive members of society and are very warm, compassionate, caring individuals. Yet they do not follow any religion and have no part of it. I will add that they are Jews but secular Jews who do not believe in or follow God (attending synagogue or Judaism). So what can we derive from this?

First, I thought of Jeremiah 35 which I'll post here - second I thought of Matthew 22 and the verse where it says those who were invited to come to God's Wedding Banquet for His Son refused to come. Then God when they refused to come and turned on God's servants (whom He had sent out) God said they were not worthy and he told His servants to go out into the highway and byways to invite "the good and the bad" to come in so that his banquet hall would be filled. And the good and the bad came in.

Who were the good and the bad? Good people and bad people who had no relationship with God! That's who. People we might call "atheists". Who knows that Don'tTazMeBro's friend will not be among that number when the time comes? You know? God looks upon the heart of a man. Men look at the outer appearance and works of a person but what is the motive behind those works? As we see in the parable of Matthew 22 it certainly wasn't the love of God motivating them. It was something else. Because they had left their first love and refused to return - they lost their salvation and the good and the bad took their place at the wedding banquet for God's Son.

So with that? I agree with you that people who do not believe in God can have good morals. In fact, they can have the very best of morals! Still without Christ, they cannot enter in because it is only through receiving Jesus Christ and being covered by the Blood of the Lamb that we can enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is the story the LORD reminded me of (after reading this thread / discussion). It's a story about the Rechabites. They were not of Israel but I believe they were included in the Abrahamic covenant. As you will see by this story - these Rechabites obeyed their earthly father faithfully whereas God used them as an example to ask His own children why can't you do the same for me as they do for their father? Look at their faithfulness to their earthly father (their good morals!) their obedience, their willingness to obey their earthly father without question! Even out of love for their earthly father!

It was quite a lesson for the Israelites and it should equally be a lesson for Christians today. If the world can honor their earthly fathers - how much more so should the Children of God Honor God by their obedience and holy lives?

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 35 - King James Version

Jeremiah 35 King James Version (KJV)
35 The word which came unto Jeremiah from the Lord in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, saying,

2 Go unto the house of the Rechabites, and speak unto them, and bring them into the house of the Lord, into one of the chambers, and give them wine to drink.

3 Then I took Jaazaniah the son of Jeremiah, the son of Habaziniah, and his brethren, and all his sons, and the whole house of the Rechabites;

4 And I brought them into the house of the Lord, into the chamber of the sons of Hanan, the son of Igdaliah, a man of God, which was by the chamber of the princes, which was above the chamber of Maaseiah the son of Shallum, the keeper of the door:

5 And I set before the sons of the house of the Rechabites pots full of wine, and cups, and I said unto them, Drink ye wine.

6 But they said, We will drink no wine: for Jonadab the son of Rechab our father commanded us, saying, Ye shall drink no wine, neither ye, nor your sons for ever:

7 Neither shall ye build house, nor sow seed, nor plant vineyard, nor have any: but all your days ye shall dwell in tents; that ye may live many days in the land where ye be strangers.

8 Thus have we obeyed the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab our father in all that he hath charged us, to drink no wine all our days, we, our wives, our sons, nor our daughters;

9 Nor to build houses for us to dwell in: neither have we vineyard, nor field, nor seed:

10 But we have dwelt in tents, and have obeyed, and done according to all that Jonadab our father commanded us.

11 But it came to pass, when Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon came up into the land, that we said, Come, and let us go to Jerusalem for fear of the army of the Chaldeans, and for fear of the army of the Syrians: so we dwell at Jerusalem.

12 Then came the word of the Lord unto Jeremiah, saying,

13 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Go and tell the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Will ye not receive instruction to hearken to my words? saith the Lord.

14 The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, that he commanded his sons not to drink wine, are performed; for unto this day they drink none, but obey their father's commandment: notwithstanding I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; but ye hearkened not unto me.

15 I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.

16 Because the sons of Jonadab the son of Rechab have performed the commandment of their father, which he commanded them; but this people hath not hearkened unto me:

17 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

18 And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:

19 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.

King James Version (KJV)

I'm certainly not generalizing here.. I choose to live amongst people of faith because I admire their discipline and devotion.. And with them -- I KNOW what the expectations should be thru God's word.. I can SEE the dedication to the task from their actions every day in the Bible belt. And it shows in their children.

I have no such guidance for the "independents" who claim to have a personal moral code and discipline.

What I'm saying is -- with enough discipline and dedication --- folks CAN develop equivalent moral values WITHOUT the institutionalized assistance. OBEYING divine words is a GOOD way to accomplish that -- but not the only way.. Without Weight Watchers -- you can still beat gluttony and sloth.. Without a congregation, you can still know right and wrong. But not without the same amount of dedication to the task that a Church going Christian or Synagogue worshipping Jew puts into it during a year.

Absent God there is no potential for a moral code... as the morality merely becomes your opinion over the next guys.

God's authority is what provides morality... and absent that, it's just the short road to chaos, calamity and catastrophe.

Wrong. Many societies have developed moral code. According to you, only the Judeo-Christian societies did it under the guidance of a real god. But the Babylonians, Egyptians, Chinese, Persians, Greeks, Indians, etc, etc, etc all developed moral codes without the guidance of your god. So ... you are absolutely wrong.

 

[Davros]

What are you talking about, dumb ass? You need to have it explained to you that you and 7 billion other people on the planet are alive? That's pretty much indisputable.

What isn't proven is the existence of your magical sky fairy, and the 2000 other ones that people worship around the world, for which is there is zero evidence. The challenge is for you to prove your mythology, which you can't. It's not up to me prove a negative.

. Try taking all the building blocks of this universe in a jar. Shake it for a couple billion years and see if you can create a perfectly balance universe we occupy, right down to your body with all the organs functioning in such a way to keep you living.

It won't happen. A universe this perfectly organized and run can only come from the hand of a Creator. Don't mater if you believe it or not. Explain how a single point exploded and all this just randomly came to be. You really have to have FAITH to believe that shit.

The development of a living thing from a single cell seemed like it was random ... until we learned about how biological development happens. Things can seem random due to our lack of knowledge without actually being random.

Primitive people understood that men could build things, but the didn't understand how nature built things so they assumed that a "human like" god must have been responsible for it.

How did the universe come to be ... nobody knows. But the answer "it happened by natural processes" requires no more faith than "God did it".

It's very easy to read the Torah and say "this is absurd and it can't be true" whether or not you actually know the true story (and nobody likely does know the true story of how Israel came to be and why they adopted the religious beliefs that they did).

What is absurd is Leftists trying to explain GOD, when they're still SHOCKED that the CLIMATE CHANGES!

You don't understand the science of climate change. That is beyond clear.

When you say "science", you mean hoax, right?

Nope. I mean science.