Christian values

[Where_r_my_Keys]

SO... Now LET'S Return to the Relevant Discussion:

The challenge which they've now repeatedly failed to rise toward, is for the Advocates of Godlessness to explain how morality and the ethics derived from such, are possible in the absence of God.

In the absence of God:

What are morals?
What purpose do morals serve?
On what authority do they rest? (Which is to ask: From where do these would-be morals come?)
On what basis are such enforced?
What serves to enforce such?

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Reader, why do you suppose they can't answer these simple queries?

It's because, in their attempt to do so they have always proven that in the absence of God, there are no morals... which we see today expressed on the recent licensing of degeneracy by the US Supreme Legislature.

It's rapidly becoming impossible to deny, by even the most pathetic examples of Godlessness.

 

[Skylar]

Reader, why do you suppose they can't answer these simple queries?

Again, Keyes....see how you ignore the very answers you asked for. Once again for the willfully ignorant:

Absent God, what would be the value of ethics?

Depends on the ethics. Most ethical systems are based on practical issues around social organization and harmony. Which would need no god. Answering your question.

On what would such be based?

Obviously, the same as religion: the beliefs of the people that establish it. Remember, religion is hopelessly subjective and relativistic. Mother Teresa and Grand Inquisitor Torquemada both used the same Bible, followed the same faith. But based on how they interpreted their holy books, what they prioritize, what they ignore......their faith reflects what they already believe.

Even when you're dealing with the same faith in the same general cultural tradition using the same territory and the same language.....you get wildly different interpretations over time. The Puritans for example executed both adulterers and gays. The Founders, just gays. But not adulterers. And modern Christians, neither.

Did God change his mind? Or did the people simply interpret their faith in a manner that matched what they already believed? Its obviously the latter.

What would be the measure by which a person would be held to account?

See above: The beliefs of the people that establish the ethical system. Just like religion. Keep running.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

The vast majority of liberals are Christian, following Christian values.

There are NO LEFTIST Christians.

And this is because Nature precludes the means for one to simultaneously adhere to BOTH the Thesis and the Antithesis.

It simply can NOT be done.

 

[Skylar]

The vast majority of liberals are Christian, following Christian values.

There are NO LEFTIST Christians.

And this is because Nature precludes the means for one to simultaneously adhere to BOTH the Thesis and the Antithesis.

Meaningless gibberish. And you don't define Christianity or 'Leftists'. Nor does your subjective opinion establish that they are opposites.

That's merely your subjective opinion which is objectively meaningless.

 

[guno]

How about just trim it to "values". We can value family, self, life, others, society, and pretty much anything else without ascribing the "Christian" moniker.

Modern humans inhabited this earth long before Christ showed up.

Christ is a crutch for humans devoid of self-realization who want to bring other humans down to their level.

Christ is a crutch for humans devoid of self-realization

Right on the mark

 

[guno]

The vast majority of liberals are Christian, following Christian values.

There are NO LEFTIST Christians.

And this is because Nature precludes the means for one to simultaneously adhere to BOTH the Thesis and the Antithesis.

It simply can NOT be done.

Can Christianity be rescued from Christians?

And that’s an open question and when you see a bunch of people going around thinking that our president is the anti-Christ, you have to draw one of two conclusions: either these are racists looking for any excuse to level the next accusation, or they’re beyond crazy, and I think beyond crazy is a better explanation.

And that evangelical subculture has rotted the brain of the United States of America.

We have a big slice of our population waiting for Jesus to come back, they look forward to Armageddon, good news is bad news to them.

When we talk about the Left Behind series of books that I talk about in my book Crazy for God, what we’re really talking about is a group of people who are resentful because they know they’ve been left behind by modernity, by science, by education, by art, by literature.

The rest of us our getting on with our lives; these people are standing on a hilltop waiting for the end. And this is a dangerous group of people to have as neighbors and they’re our national neighbors and this is the source of all these insanities that we see leveled at the president.

One way or another they go back to this little evangelical subculture… it’s a disaster.

 

[flacaltenn]

In the absence of God, there is no potential for happiness, as there is no means for human rights... .

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

In the absence of God, there is no potential for happiness, as there is no means for human rights... .

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

OH! Now THAT is brilliant.

Do the Board a favor and cite us a few morals which you recognize that are derived wholly separate from Christianity.

And please... this is key, explain to the board how, in the absence of God, morals are an essential element of humanity.

Lying, cheating, murder, adultery --- IOW --- MOST of the 10 Commandments.. Which by the way ain't Christian.
These are things that most MORAL folks agree on. It's the principles built from DISCIPLINE and TRADITION that may make religiously observant people more likely to PRACTICE those morals..

You think there is a Christian TMark on morals? If ya do --- the Jews and Hammurabi are gonna sue you for infringement..

I LIKE folks who show enough discipline to seek out others likeminded and regularly discuss these things. It shows that they VALUE them. But folks can value the same moral code without the "Jenny Craig" support group... Or maybe you only need Weight Watchers for a couple months until you receive the message..

 

[RandomVariable]

By Christian values one is presumably referring to the teachings of Christ which I would sum up to be, "Turn the other cheek." That would make for a rather ineffective court system I would guess.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

In the absence of God, there is no potential for happiness, as there is no means for human rights... .

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

In the absence of God, there is no potential for happiness, as there is no means for human rights... .

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

OH! Now THAT is brilliant.

Do the Board a favor and cite us a few morals which you recognize that are derived wholly separate from Christianity.

And please... this is key, explain to the board how, in the absence of God, morals are an essential element of humanity.

Lying, cheating, murder, adultery --- IOW --- MOST of the 10 Commandments.. Which by the way ain't Christian.

These are things that most MORAL folks agree on. It's the principles built from DISCIPLINE and TRADITION that may make religiously observant people more likely to PRACTICE those morals..

You think there is a Christian TMark on morals? If ya do --- the Jews and Hammurabi are gonna sue you for infringement..

I LIKE folks who show enough discipline to seek out others likeminded and regularly discuss these things. It shows that they VALUE them. But folks can value the same moral code without the "Jenny Craig" support group... Or maybe you only need Weight Watchers for a couple months until you receive the message..

Ten Commandments are Jewish and, Judea/Christian Morals are what is at issue here.

But what I am sensing is that while you'd love to offer an example of a moral that is not founded directly in such, you're unable to do so. And further you're unable to speak to any of the other queries relevant to the challenge.

Which is pretty much where the standard says you would be.

Thanks for participating.

Your concession is Duly noted and Summarily accepted.

Ya did the best ya could...

.

.

.

SO... Now LET'S Return to the Relevant Discussion:

The challenge which they've now repeatedly failed to rise toward, is for the Advocates of Godlessness to explain how morality and the ethics derived from such, are possible in the absence of God.

In the absence of God:

What are morals?
What purpose do morals serve?
On what authority do they rest? (Which is to ask: From where do these would-be morals come?)
On what basis are such enforced?
What serves to enforce such?

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

By Christian values one is presumably referring to the teachings of Christ which I would sum up to be, "Turn the other cheek." That would make for a rather ineffective court system I would guess.

ROFLMNAO~

Christ submitted to a beating of the incomprehensible variety, FOR YOUR SIN... having, he, himself committed no sin, to give YOU a chance to avoid spending eternity in incomprehensible anguish... And you feel that THIS GUY is a 'turn the other cheek' guy?

ROFLMNAO~

Understand, this is "The Guy" that, if you reject his gift is going to send you into ETERNITY, in what he described as 'hell's Fire', as a means to describe what you've got coming to you?

THIS GUY, you feel is a door mat, that you feel you can con into letting you off for your offenses against God?

LOL!

Now... THAT, is adorable.

 

[Skylar]

In the absence of God, there is no potential for happiness, as there is no means for human rights... .

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

In the absence of God, there is no potential for happiness, as there is no means for human rights... .

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

OH! Now THAT is brilliant.

Do the Board a favor and cite us a few morals which you recognize that are derived wholly separate from Christianity.

And please... this is key, explain to the board how, in the absence of God, morals are an essential element of humanity.

Lying, cheating, murder, adultery --- IOW --- MOST of the 10 Commandments.. Which by the way ain't Christian.

These are things that most MORAL folks agree on. It's the principles built from DISCIPLINE and TRADITION that may make religiously observant people more likely to PRACTICE those morals..

You think there is a Christian TMark on morals? If ya do --- the Jews and Hammurabi are gonna sue you for infringement..

I LIKE folks who show enough discipline to seek out others likeminded and regularly discuss these things. It shows that they VALUE them. But folks can value the same moral code without the "Jenny Craig" support group... Or maybe you only need Weight Watchers for a couple months until you receive the message..

Ten Commandments are Jewish and, Judea/Christian Morals are what is at issue here.

Judaism isn't Christianity. Nixing your equivalence. And the 10 commandments were already articulated before the Torah in the Code of Hammurabi. Nixing it again.

You've done nothing to factually, rationally or logically establish your conception of God objectively. Youv'e merely imagined you must be right using hopelessly circular reasoning and a litany of logical fallacies. No objectively valid moral system would need it.

Your subjective beliefs do.

But what I am sensing is that while you'd love to offer an example of a moral that is not founded directly in such, you're unable to do so. And further you're unable to speak to any of the other queries relevant to the challenge.

Your challenge has already been met. You simply ignore any answer and then pretend that if you ignore answers, there are none. Willful ignorance is one of the major reasons that religion has given ground to the scientific method and more rational processes.

And why you failed.
.

SO... Now LET'S Return to the Relevant Discussion:

The challenge which they've now repeatedly failed to rise toward, is for the Advocates of Godlessness to explain how morality and the ethics derived from such, are possible in the absence of God.

In the absence of God:

What are morals?
What purpose do morals serve?
On what authority do they rest? (Which is to ask: From where do these would-be morals come?)
On what basis are such enforced?
What serves to enforce such?

Already answered. See post 63. Or ignore it. It really doesn't matter. As just because you pretend that no answer has been given to your question doesn't mean that we have to pretend with you.

 

[Skylar]

By Christian values one is presumably referring to the teachings of Christ which I would sum up to be, "Turn the other cheek." That would make for a rather ineffective court system I would guess.

ROFLMNAO~

Christ submitted to a beating of the incomprehensible variety, FOR YOUR SIN... having, he, himself committed no sin, to give YOU a chance to avoid spending eternity in incomprehensible anguish... And you feel that THIS GUY is a 'turn the other cheek' guy?

So you've been taught to believe. But you can't objectively establish any of that. You can't even rationally establish a need for your conception of god in any capacity. Let alone as the sole source of morality.

You're still stuck at square one.

 

[RandomVariable]

By Christian values one is presumably referring to the teachings of Christ which I would sum up to be, "Turn the other cheek." That would make for a rather ineffective court system I would guess.

ROFLMNAO~

Christ submitted to a beating of the incomprehensible variety, FOR YOUR SIN... having, he, himself committed no sin, to give YOU a chance to avoid spending eternity in incomprehensible anguish... And you feel that THIS GUY is a 'turn the other cheek' guy?

ROFLMNAO~

Understand, this is "The Guy" that, if you reject his gift is going to send you into ETERNITY, in what he described as 'hell's Fire', as a means to describe what you've got coming to you?

THIS GUY, you feel is a door mat, that you feel you can con into letting you off for your offenses against God?

LOL!

Now... THAT, is adorable.

You are missing the factor of timing. (Although I am glad you had a chance to enjoy some floor time just the same.) Jesus advocates for letting God carry out His will, in His time. Jesus says if someone does you wrong it is all part of God's plan and God will settle the score when and where He chooses. Muslims have a slightly different take. They say if anyone breaks the law of god, as they have it written, the law must be enforced immediately and absolutely.

 

[flacaltenn]

In the absence of God, there is no potential for happiness, as there is no means for human rights... .

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

In the absence of God, there is no potential for happiness, as there is no means for human rights... .

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

OH! Now THAT is brilliant.

Do the Board a favor and cite us a few morals which you recognize that are derived wholly separate from Christianity.

And please... this is key, explain to the board how, in the absence of God, morals are an essential element of humanity.

Lying, cheating, murder, adultery --- IOW --- MOST of the 10 Commandments.. Which by the way ain't Christian.

These are things that most MORAL folks agree on. It's the principles built from DISCIPLINE and TRADITION that may make religiously observant people more likely to PRACTICE those morals..

You think there is a Christian TMark on morals? If ya do --- the Jews and Hammurabi are gonna sue you for infringement..

I LIKE folks who show enough discipline to seek out others likeminded and regularly discuss these things. It shows that they VALUE them. But folks can value the same moral code without the "Jenny Craig" support group... Or maybe you only need Weight Watchers for a couple months until you receive the message..

Ten Commandments are Jewish and, Judea/Christian Morals are what is at issue here.

But what I am sensing is that while you'd love to offer an example of a moral that is not founded directly in such, you're unable to do so. And further you're unable to speak to any of the other queries relevant to the challenge.

Which is pretty much where the standard says you would be.

Thanks for participating.

Your concession is Duly noted and Summarily accepted.

Ya did the best ya could...

.

.

.

SO... Now LET'S Return to the Relevant Discussion:

The challenge which they've now repeatedly failed to rise toward, is for the Advocates of Godlessness to explain how morality and the ethics derived from such, are possible in the absence of God.

In the absence of God:

What are morals?
What purpose do morals serve?
On what authority do they rest? (Which is to ask: From where do these would-be morals come?)
On what basis are such enforced?
What serves to enforce such?

You don't have a monopoly over common sense lists of morals because you were the first to record them.
Doesn't work that way.. In fact Hammurabi would have an interesting case at US trademark court on the "ownership" question... The argument that morality doesn't exist if you're not enrolled in a faith-based institution which cites morality as contingent on FAITH is actually a weaker justification to practice those moral codes.

Those moral codes should be based on reason and empirical observations about humanity in a much broader sense. If you think I'm foolish to say that -- you ought to realize that one of the worlds LARGEST religions that SHARES the 10 commandments (in theory) is being pummeled today for their "adaptation" of these moral codes. And yes -- I'm referring to Islam. FAITH in God is NOT sufficient to deny these truths to "non-religious" people as an excersize in reason and observation..

 

[Jarlaxle]

In the absence of God, there is no potential for happiness, as there is no means for human rights... .

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

Don't bother. I suspect Keys considers Torquemada a "good Christian".

 

[Jarlaxle]

Don't you think that we should go back to our Christian values? Liberalism is a road to nowhere, it's just impossible to become absolutely 'free'. Christian way of life is the perfect way to reach happiness and protestant ethics help people to work better and earn more. It's not like we need to become religious. There are just too many good things in the Christian way of life which are almost completely forgotten nowadays.

So you want to just throw the Constitution and Bill of Rights out the window?

What about people who aren't christian?

I'm one of them and you have absolutely no right to force your religion on me or anyone.

Live your life according to whatever values or beliefs you want. But stop trying to force it on me and the rest of the nation.

People like you have absolutely no idea what America is about.

We, Christians, not only have a RIGHT to force our religion upon you, we have a duty to do so.

You see, we do not recognize a right for you to take the life of an innocent without a valid moral justification. Thus where you do so, we will kill you back; because you have, in taking the life of another, forfeited any right which you might claim to your own life.

The same is true for your desire to take the property of another without the consent of the other. Depending on what you took, we may kill you for it; if it caused serious bodily injury or the death of another, or we may just remove you from society for a predetermined period of time.

This also goes for lying about another's behavior or character... we take a dim view of this and when you're found guilty of such, we will come down on you with everything we have... .

And so it goes for many other things.

These are Christian values which we enforce through our national legal statutes... .

We have of course been rather slack over the last few generations, but we're changing our policy on that slack, because you idiots have no found it necessary to publicly license every facet of degeneracy, thus proving beyond any sense of doubt that you're incapable of sustaining freedom AT ANY LEVEL.

Therefore we'll be taking back control of the US Federal Government over the coming generations and you, the Godless are going to become irrelevant, in terms of Governance.

You aren't required to like it, approve of it, or even speak kindly of it... as a matter of fact we will encourage you to speak out in your disapproval, as THAT is how we will locate you. And after we've had a chance to discuss it with you, I'm sure that society will be just THAT MUCH better off for it.

Now... you Have a Nice Day

You're having delusions of adequacy again, boy.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Ten Commandments are Jewish and, Judea/Christian Morals are what is at issue here.

Actually, only three of the Ten Commandments have any force of law. (Six, eight, and nine...the seventh did, but not so much anymore.)

But what I am sensing is that while you'd love to offer an example of a moral that is not founded directly in such, you're unable to do so. And further you're unable to speak to any of the other queries relevant to the challenge.

Which is pretty much where the standard says you would be.

Thanks for participating.

Your concession is Duly noted and Summarily accepted.

Ya did the best ya could...

And right on cue, there is your tell! As predictable-and as useful-as a broken clock.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

In the absence of God, there is no potential for happiness, as there is no means for human rights... .

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

OH! Now THAT is brilliant.

Do the Board a favor and cite us a few morals which you recognize that are derived wholly separate from Christianity.

And please... this is key, explain to the board how, in the absence of God, morals are an essential element of humanity.

Lying, cheating, murder, adultery --- IOW --- MOST of the 10 Commandments.. Which by the way ain't Christian.

These are things that most MORAL folks agree on. It's the principles built from DISCIPLINE and TRADITION that may make religiously observant people more likely to PRACTICE those morals..

You think there is a Christian TMark on morals? If ya do --- the Jews and Hammurabi are gonna sue you for infringement..

I LIKE folks who show enough discipline to seek out others likeminded and regularly discuss these things. It shows that they VALUE them. But folks can value the same moral code without the "Jenny Craig" support group... Or maybe you only need Weight Watchers for a couple months until you receive the message..

Ten Commandments are Jewish and, Judea/Christian Morals are what is at issue here.

But what I am sensing is that while you'd love to offer an example of a moral that is not founded directly in such, you're unable to do so. And further you're unable to speak to any of the other queries relevant to the challenge.

Which is pretty much where the standard says you would be.

Thanks for participating.

Your concession is Duly noted and Summarily accepted.

Ya did the best ya could...

.

.

.

SO... Now LET'S Return to the Relevant Discussion:

The challenge which they've now repeatedly failed to rise toward, is for the Advocates of Godlessness to explain how morality and the ethics derived from such, are possible in the absence of God.

In the absence of God:

What are morals?
What purpose do morals serve?
On what authority do they rest? (Which is to ask: From where do these would-be morals come?)
On what basis are such enforced?
What serves to enforce such?

You don't have a monopoly over common sense lists of morals because you were the first to record them.
Doesn't work that way.. In fact Hammurabi would have an interesting case at US trademark court on the "ownership" question... The argument that morality doesn't exist if you're not enrolled in a faith-based institution which cites morality as contingent on FAITH is actually a weaker justification to practice those moral codes.

Those moral codes should be based on reason and empirical observations about humanity in a much broader sense. If you think I'm foolish to say that -- you ought to realize that one of the worlds LARGEST religions that SHARES the 10 commandments (in theory) is being pummeled today for their "adaptation" of these moral codes. And yes -- I'm referring to Islam. FAITH in God is NOT sufficient to deny these truths to "non-religious" people as an excersize in reason and observation..

In the absence of God, there is no potential for happiness, as there is no means for human rights... .

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

In the absence of God, there is no potential for happiness, as there is no means for human rights... .

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

OH! Now THAT is brilliant.

Do the Board a favor and cite us a few morals which you recognize that are derived wholly separate from Christianity.

And please... this is key, explain to the board how, in the absence of God, morals are an essential element of humanity.

The ten commandments were given to Moses by God and Christians are to keep those commandments, Flacaltenn. I agree with you that atheists can live good moral lives. If it were not true we would not be able to find such examples in the Bible, yet we can.

I have known families who do not acknowledge God in any way and have lived lives that would put some who say they are Christian to shame. One family I am thinking of has given to charities, raised their children to be very productive members of society and are very warm, compassionate, caring individuals. Yet they do not follow any religion and have no part of it. I will add that they are Jews but secular Jews who do not believe in following God. So what can we derive from this?

First, I thought of Jeremiah 35 which I'll post here - second I thought of Matthew 22 and the verse where it says those who were invited to come to God's Wedding Banquet for His Son refused to come. Then when they refused to come and turned on God's servants (whom He had sent out) God said they were not worthy and he told His servants to go out into the highway and byways to invite "the good and the bad" to come in so that his banquet hall would be filled. And the good and the bad came in.

Who were the good and the bad? Good people and bad people who had no relationship with God! That's who. People we might call "atheists". Who knows that Don'tTazMeBro's friend will not be among that number when the time comes? You know? God looks upon the heart of a man. Men look at the outer appearance and works of a person but what is the motive behind those works? As we see in the parable of Matthew 22 it certainly wasn't the love of God motivating them. It was something else. Because they had left their first love and refused to return - they lost their salvation and the good and the bad took their place at the wedding banquet for God's Son.

So with that? I agree with you that people who do not believe in God can have good morals. In fact, they can have the very best of morals! Still without Christ, they cannot enter in because it is only through receiving Jesus Christ and being covered by the Blood of the Lamb that we can enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is the story the LORD reminded me of (after reading this thread / discussion). It's a story about the Rechabites. They were not of Israel but I believe they were included in the Abrahamic covenant. As you will see by this story - these Rechabites obeyed their earthly father faithfully whereas God used them as an example to ask His own children why can't you do the same for me as they do for their father? Look at their faithfulness to their earthly father (their good morals!) their obedience, their willingness to obey their earthly father without question! Even out of love for their earthly father!

It was quite a lesson for the Israelites and it should equally be a lesson for Christians today. If the world can honor their earthly fathers - how much more so should the Children of God Honor God by their obedience and holy lives?

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 35 - King James Version

The ten commandments were given to Moses by God and Christians are to keep those commandments, Flacaltenn. I agree with you that atheists can live good moral lives. If it were not true we would not be able to find such examples in the Bible, yet we can.

I have known families who do not acknowledge God in any way and have lived lives that would put some who say they are Christian to shame. One family I am thinking of has given to charities, raised their children to be very productive members of society and are very warm, compassionate, caring individuals. Yet they do not follow any religion and have no part of it. I will add that they are Jews but secular Jews who do not believe in or follow God (attending synagogue or Judaism). So what can we derive from this?

First, I thought of Jeremiah 35 which I'll post here - second I thought of Matthew 22 and the verse where it says those who were invited to come to God's Wedding Banquet for His Son refused to come. Then when they refused to come and turned on God's servants (whom He had sent out) God said they were not worthy and he told His servants to go out into the highway and byways to invite "the good and the bad" to come in so that his banquet hall would be filled. And the good and the bad came in.

Who were the good and the bad? Good people and bad people who had no relationship with God! That's who. People we might call "atheists". Who knows that Don'tTazMeBro's friend will not be among that number when the time comes? You know? God looks upon the heart of a man. Men look at the outer appearance and works of a person but what is the motive behind those works? As we see in the parable of Matthew 22 it certainly wasn't the love of God motivating them. It was something else. Because they had left their first love and refused to return - they lost their salvation and the good and the bad took their place at the wedding banquet for God's Son.

So with that? I agree with you that people who do not believe in God can have good morals. In fact, they can have the very best of morals! Still without Christ, they cannot enter in because it is only through receiving Jesus Christ and being covered by the Blood of the Lamb that we can enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is the story the LORD reminded me of (after reading this thread / discussion). It's a story about the Rechabites. They were not of Israel but I believe they were included in the Abrahamic covenant. As you will see by this story - these Rechabites obeyed their earthly father faithfully whereas God used them as an example to ask His own children why can't you do the same for me as they do for their father? Look at their faithfulness to their earthly father (their good morals!) their obedience, their willingness to obey their earthly father without question! Even out of love for their earthly father!

It was quite a lesson for the Israelites and it should equally be a lesson for Christians today. If the world can honor their earthly fathers - how much more so should the Children of God Honor God by their obedience and holy lives?

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 35 - King James Version

Jeremiah 35 King James Version (KJV)
35 The word which came unto Jeremiah from the Lord in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, saying,

2 Go unto the house of the Rechabites, and speak unto them, and bring them into the house of the Lord, into one of the chambers, and give them wine to drink.

3 Then I took Jaazaniah the son of Jeremiah, the son of Habaziniah, and his brethren, and all his sons, and the whole house of the Rechabites;

4 And I brought them into the house of the Lord, into the chamber of the sons of Hanan, the son of Igdaliah, a man of God, which was by the chamber of the princes, which was above the chamber of Maaseiah the son of Shallum, the keeper of the door:

5 And I set before the sons of the house of the Rechabites pots full of wine, and cups, and I said unto them, Drink ye wine.

6 But they said, We will drink no wine: for Jonadab the son of Rechab our father commanded us, saying, Ye shall drink no wine, neither ye, nor your sons for ever:

7 Neither shall ye build house, nor sow seed, nor plant vineyard, nor have any: but all your days ye shall dwell in tents; that ye may live many days in the land where ye be strangers.

8 Thus have we obeyed the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab our father in all that he hath charged us, to drink no wine all our days, we, our wives, our sons, nor our daughters;

9 Nor to build houses for us to dwell in: neither have we vineyard, nor field, nor seed:

10 But we have dwelt in tents, and have obeyed, and done according to all that Jonadab our father commanded us.

11 But it came to pass, when Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon came up into the land, that we said, Come, and let us go to Jerusalem for fear of the army of the Chaldeans, and for fear of the army of the Syrians: so we dwell at Jerusalem.

12 Then came the word of the Lord unto Jeremiah, saying,

13 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Go and tell the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Will ye not receive instruction to hearken to my words? saith the Lord.

14 The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, that he commanded his sons not to drink wine, are performed; for unto this day they drink none, but obey their father's commandment: notwithstanding I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; but ye hearkened not unto me.

15 I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.

16 Because the sons of Jonadab the son of Rechab have performed the commandment of their father, which he commanded them; but this people hath not hearkened unto me:

17 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

18 And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:

19 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.

King James Version (KJV)

 

[flacaltenn]

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

OH! Now THAT is brilliant.

Do the Board a favor and cite us a few morals which you recognize that are derived wholly separate from Christianity.

And please... this is key, explain to the board how, in the absence of God, morals are an essential element of humanity.

Lying, cheating, murder, adultery --- IOW --- MOST of the 10 Commandments.. Which by the way ain't Christian.

These are things that most MORAL folks agree on. It's the principles built from DISCIPLINE and TRADITION that may make religiously observant people more likely to PRACTICE those morals..

You think there is a Christian TMark on morals? If ya do --- the Jews and Hammurabi are gonna sue you for infringement..

I LIKE folks who show enough discipline to seek out others likeminded and regularly discuss these things. It shows that they VALUE them. But folks can value the same moral code without the "Jenny Craig" support group... Or maybe you only need Weight Watchers for a couple months until you receive the message..

Ten Commandments are Jewish and, Judea/Christian Morals are what is at issue here.

But what I am sensing is that while you'd love to offer an example of a moral that is not founded directly in such, you're unable to do so. And further you're unable to speak to any of the other queries relevant to the challenge.

Which is pretty much where the standard says you would be.

Thanks for participating.

Your concession is Duly noted and Summarily accepted.

Ya did the best ya could...

.

.

.

SO... Now LET'S Return to the Relevant Discussion:

The challenge which they've now repeatedly failed to rise toward, is for the Advocates of Godlessness to explain how morality and the ethics derived from such, are possible in the absence of God.

In the absence of God:

What are morals?
What purpose do morals serve?
On what authority do they rest? (Which is to ask: From where do these would-be morals come?)
On what basis are such enforced?
What serves to enforce such?

You don't have a monopoly over common sense lists of morals because you were the first to record them.
Doesn't work that way.. In fact Hammurabi would have an interesting case at US trademark court on the "ownership" question... The argument that morality doesn't exist if you're not enrolled in a faith-based institution which cites morality as contingent on FAITH is actually a weaker justification to practice those moral codes.

Those moral codes should be based on reason and empirical observations about humanity in a much broader sense. If you think I'm foolish to say that -- you ought to realize that one of the worlds LARGEST religions that SHARES the 10 commandments (in theory) is being pummeled today for their "adaptation" of these moral codes. And yes -- I'm referring to Islam. FAITH in God is NOT sufficient to deny these truths to "non-religious" people as an excersize in reason and observation..

In the absence of God, there is no potential for happiness, as there is no means for human rights... .

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

In the absence of God, there is no potential for happiness, as there is no means for human rights... .

Bullshit. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. One of my best friends is an atheist and he's one of the most decent, hard working, ethical people I've ever known in my life.

That's the conclusion ya gotta draw. Morality ain't naturally BETTER with religious practice.. But it's the PRACTICE part that matters. I look at it sort of like the "weight management" industry.. You got Jennie Craig and Weightwatchers and all those orgs to help you PRACTICE what is inherently pretty obvious.. Eat less, excersize more.

It's the DISCIPLINE and TRADITION of organized religion that is the benefit to keep folks on track. And like you respect your atheist friend -- I respect the folks that get up early on a Sunday morning, clean themselves up and go attend services or studies. Or because of Jesus or God -- make that a family discipline that can't be cheated like a tray of brownies in the fridge..

OH! Now THAT is brilliant.

Do the Board a favor and cite us a few morals which you recognize that are derived wholly separate from Christianity.

And please... this is key, explain to the board how, in the absence of God, morals are an essential element of humanity.

The ten commandments were given to Moses by God and Christians are to keep those commandments, Flacaltenn. I agree with you that atheists can live good moral lives. If it were not true we would not be able to find such examples in the Bible, yet we can.

I have known families who do not acknowledge God in any way and have lived lives that would put some who say they are Christian to shame. One family I am thinking of has given to charities, raised their children to be very productive members of society and are very warm, compassionate, caring individuals. Yet they do not follow any religion and have no part of it. I will add that they are Jews but secular Jews who do not believe in following God. So what can we derive from this?

First, I thought of Jeremiah 35 which I'll post here - second I thought of Matthew 22 and the verse where it says those who were invited to come to God's Wedding Banquet for His Son refused to come. Then when they refused to come and turned on God's servants (whom He had sent out) God said they were not worthy and he told His servants to go out into the highway and byways to invite "the good and the bad" to come in so that his banquet hall would be filled. And the good and the bad came in.

Who were the good and the bad? Good people and bad people who had no relationship with God! That's who. People we might call "atheists". Who knows that Don'tTazMeBro's friend will not be among that number when the time comes? You know? God looks upon the heart of a man. Men look at the outer appearance and works of a person but what is the motive behind those works? As we see in the parable of Matthew 22 it certainly wasn't the love of God motivating them. It was something else. Because they had left their first love and refused to return - they lost their salvation and the good and the bad took their place at the wedding banquet for God's Son.

So with that? I agree with you that people who do not believe in God can have good morals. In fact, they can have the very best of morals! Still without Christ, they cannot enter in because it is only through receiving Jesus Christ and being covered by the Blood of the Lamb that we can enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is the story the LORD reminded me of (after reading this thread / discussion). It's a story about the Rechabites. They were not of Israel but I believe they were included in the Abrahamic covenant. As you will see by this story - these Rechabites obeyed their earthly father faithfully whereas God used them as an example to ask His own children why can't you do the same for me as they do for their father? Look at their faithfulness to their earthly father (their good morals!) their obedience, their willingness to obey their earthly father without question! Even out of love for their earthly father!

It was quite a lesson for the Israelites and it should equally be a lesson for Christians today. If the world can honor their earthly fathers - how much more so should the Children of God Honor God by their obedience and holy lives?

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 35 - King James Version

The ten commandments were given to Moses by God and Christians are to keep those commandments, Flacaltenn. I agree with you that atheists can live good moral lives. If it were not true we would not be able to find such examples in the Bible, yet we can.

I have known families who do not acknowledge God in any way and have lived lives that would put some who say they are Christian to shame. One family I am thinking of has given to charities, raised their children to be very productive members of society and are very warm, compassionate, caring individuals. Yet they do not follow any religion and have no part of it. I will add that they are Jews but secular Jews who do not believe in or follow God (attending synagogue or Judaism). So what can we derive from this?

First, I thought of Jeremiah 35 which I'll post here - second I thought of Matthew 22 and the verse where it says those who were invited to come to God's Wedding Banquet for His Son refused to come. Then God when they refused to come and turned on God's servants (whom He had sent out) God said they were not worthy and he told His servants to go out into the highway and byways to invite "the good and the bad" to come in so that his banquet hall would be filled. And the good and the bad came in.

Who were the good and the bad? Good people and bad people who had no relationship with God! That's who. People we might call "atheists". Who knows that Don'tTazMeBro's friend will not be among that number when the time comes? You know? God looks upon the heart of a man. Men look at the outer appearance and works of a person but what is the motive behind those works? As we see in the parable of Matthew 22 it certainly wasn't the love of God motivating them. It was something else. Because they had left their first love and refused to return - they lost their salvation and the good and the bad took their place at the wedding banquet for God's Son.

So with that? I agree with you that people who do not believe in God can have good morals. In fact, they can have the very best of morals! Still without Christ, they cannot enter in because it is only through receiving Jesus Christ and being covered by the Blood of the Lamb that we can enter in to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Here is the story the LORD reminded me of (after reading this thread / discussion). It's a story about the Rechabites. They were not of Israel but I believe they were included in the Abrahamic covenant. As you will see by this story - these Rechabites obeyed their earthly father faithfully whereas God used them as an example to ask His own children why can't you do the same for me as they do for their father? Look at their faithfulness to their earthly father (their good morals!) their obedience, their willingness to obey their earthly father without question! Even out of love for their earthly father!

It was quite a lesson for the Israelites and it should equally be a lesson for Christians today. If the world can honor their earthly fathers - how much more so should the Children of God Honor God by their obedience and holy lives?

Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 35 - King James Version

Jeremiah 35 King James Version (KJV)
35 The word which came unto Jeremiah from the Lord in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, saying,

2 Go unto the house of the Rechabites, and speak unto them, and bring them into the house of the Lord, into one of the chambers, and give them wine to drink.

3 Then I took Jaazaniah the son of Jeremiah, the son of Habaziniah, and his brethren, and all his sons, and the whole house of the Rechabites;

4 And I brought them into the house of the Lord, into the chamber of the sons of Hanan, the son of Igdaliah, a man of God, which was by the chamber of the princes, which was above the chamber of Maaseiah the son of Shallum, the keeper of the door:

5 And I set before the sons of the house of the Rechabites pots full of wine, and cups, and I said unto them, Drink ye wine.

6 But they said, We will drink no wine: for Jonadab the son of Rechab our father commanded us, saying, Ye shall drink no wine, neither ye, nor your sons for ever:

7 Neither shall ye build house, nor sow seed, nor plant vineyard, nor have any: but all your days ye shall dwell in tents; that ye may live many days in the land where ye be strangers.

8 Thus have we obeyed the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab our father in all that he hath charged us, to drink no wine all our days, we, our wives, our sons, nor our daughters;

9 Nor to build houses for us to dwell in: neither have we vineyard, nor field, nor seed:

10 But we have dwelt in tents, and have obeyed, and done according to all that Jonadab our father commanded us.

11 But it came to pass, when Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon came up into the land, that we said, Come, and let us go to Jerusalem for fear of the army of the Chaldeans, and for fear of the army of the Syrians: so we dwell at Jerusalem.

12 Then came the word of the Lord unto Jeremiah, saying,

13 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Go and tell the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Will ye not receive instruction to hearken to my words? saith the Lord.

14 The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, that he commanded his sons not to drink wine, are performed; for unto this day they drink none, but obey their father's commandment: notwithstanding I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; but ye hearkened not unto me.

15 I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.

16 Because the sons of Jonadab the son of Rechab have performed the commandment of their father, which he commanded them; but this people hath not hearkened unto me:

17 Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

18 And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:

19 Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.

King James Version (KJV)

I'm certainly not generalizing here.. I choose to live amongst people of faith because I admire their discipline and devotion.. And with them -- I KNOW what the expectations should be thru God's word.. I can SEE the dedication to the task from their actions every day in the Bible belt. And it shows in their children.

I have no such guidance for the "independents" who claim to have a personal moral code and discipline.

What I'm saying is -- with enough discipline and dedication --- folks CAN develop equivalent moral values WITHOUT the institutionalized assistance. OBEYING divine words is a GOOD way to accomplish that -- but not the only way.. Without Weight Watchers -- you can still beat gluttony and sloth.. Without a congregation, you can still know right and wrong. But not without the same amount of dedication to the task that a Church going Christian or Synagogue worshipping Jew puts into it during a year.